I've been hearing a lot of different things regarding the length of the Paragon mods. In my community, we don't even try to run Paragon mods within our usual 4 hour time slots, but schedule 6 hour slots to fit them in. I was wondering what the rest of the world was like:
Can most Paragon mods be run in 4 hour timeslots?
If they are taking longer, what is the reason for that? More roleplaying? Longer fights? Less familiarity with the powers?
Thanks,
Marick
Some of the P1s can run long, sure, but we manage to fit them into our 4 hour slots. Now, we have some wiggle room here so we can go 5 hours sometimes, but we have run Paragon mods without fear at our local game night. And will probably continue to do so.
One thing to consider: the level of optimization amongst most or all of the PCs that play paragon at our local game night is quite high. This might be why we often finish in under 4 hours. Also, if you look at some of the longer-running P1 modules, such as CORE1-14 and SPEC1-3 P1, I am the only person who has judged them... and I'm a very quick judge (I'm not saying I'm a good judge - I'm saying that I'm a quick judge... I don't dally during combat).
Just playing devil's advocate here...
That said, some friends of mine ran very long (like, had to be called without finishing cause they only had a 5 hour slot) when trying to play up at 11 on two modules and I think ran an hour or so long on CORE1-14.
Sorry ... what was the question again?
Gomez
Roleplaying. Huge variable. The DM needs to keep pacing and time constraints in mind when time is a factor. Check with the players. I recently ran one mod at a con where I asked the players "So, there's a puzzle for you to figure out and at least one more combat encounter. I'll have to cut something short - which do you prefer?"
Decision Points. Players have more choices at paragon, and will often have many options to choose from during combat. Just like Heroic tier, the DM needs to give a reasonable amount of time to make a decision, but keep things moving. Allowing players "full time" to carefully consider all of their options will push you up against a time limit.
Most players can add up d20+10 pretty quickly and 1d10+6 pretty quickly too.
On the other hand, a lot of players seem to have trouble with d20+17 (especially if there are 2 rounds where leader buffs may be applicable) and 2d10+3d8+15 also seems to take a lot longer for players to add up (again, doubly so if there is a leader buff to damage).
Where I live, one local player had to write a computer program to be able to handle his paragon rogue's attacks in a timely manner.
Oh, and this is happening with level 12 and 13 PCs, so they have been playing them for a few mods.
But we were never actually even trying to do a four hour slot, so I didn't even think about it.
I have very much seen players who need to add up from scratch how much damage they do every time. That seems a bit silly ;) Though it is also amusing to see the +/-2 delta from the previous math each time (I assume remembering or not remembering certain things)
I have very much seen players who need to add up from scratch how much damage they do every time.
Just reading this makes my face start to twitch...
Long post (sorry)
I've run several events in the san francisco/ san jose bay area and have switched over whole-heartedly to the 5-hour slot for level 7-10 and 11-14 adventures. I'd even go so far as to put some adventures (CORE1-14, SPEC1-3, CORE1-7) in 6-hour slots.
With a solid groups of players or a 5-person table you can do paragon mods in 4 hours. At game days and conventions you rarely get <6 players, and frequently have casual / inexperienced / average players that necessitate longer slots to make up for longer table run-times. When planning events, you need to accomodate the expected run time of 95% of the tables.
by observation, there are many problems with high level (not just paragon) play:
1.- more powers (3-4 ENC, 3-4Daily, 3-4 UTIL, 3-5 magic items, 3-5 cards) to choose from. Players can't make quick decision, or fail to make those decisions prior to his/her turn
2 .- poor mathematical and intuitive ability: inability to add multiple dice, keep track of multiple ad-hoc modifiers (temporary buffs from other players, combat advantage, penalties due to range, cover, or concealment). Bad intuitive ability is making an attack and rolling a 12 and being told it hits, then rolling a 14 and asking if it hits. Or missing on a 9 and rolling an 8 and asking if that misses too.
3. - inability to remember what powers do, or effects mean (details of the "restrained" condition) and having to look something up (thus slowing down the game). More importantly, if you don't know what something does, you should look it up when the game isn't stopped for you (i.e. outside your turn).
4. - Players distracted by talking with other players, side conversations, etc. This is a downward spiral issue where the game is slow - so players get distracted and when their turn comes around they slow the game down more.
5. - multiple conditions that slow the combat down (daze, weaken, insubstantial). Stun and Dead speed things up (taking no turn is faster than taking a crappy turn).
6. - indecisive players: players that make the decision on what to do on their turn, instead of before it.
7. - backseat drivers: other players that halt a players action (on his/her turn) to suggest an entirely different action, or to say "STOP!" to the planned action. If you want something to happen/not happen, discuss it BEFORE the action is about to happen.
8. - DM's poorly prepped (having to constantly look up powers, rules definitions, etc.). This also includes drawing increasingly complex maps and not having other handy tools available.
9. - DM's challenging players numbers, legality, or interpretation of rules (or vice versa). This is a mix of rules-lawyering for advantage (players challenging DMs for advantage, both with good and bad intentions) and DMs challenging the results players get ("how the heck are you +25 to hit?"). This stems from a poor knowledge of rules (both the players and the DM) and a poor sense of trust (between the players and the DM).
10. - bad tactics / poor understanding of paragon play. At higher levels, the consequences of poor teamwork and poor tactics are more pronounced.
In the small private group I play with, we've done standard (i.e. non SPEC) paragon mods in <4 hours, especially with <6 players. In public play - at conventions and game days, it typically takes up 4-5 hours.
The biggest issue is that high level play does not equate to experienced play. Anyone can bumble his/her way to 12th level (this was a problem even in LG). Players and DM's alike should look for ways to streamline the time spent on combat (because really, that's the issue with long games - it's long combats, if people spend an extra hour on RP generally it is to everyone's enjoyment).
Players:
1. know your powers, paragon path abilities (including action point triggers). Think about your actions BEFORE YOUR TURN.
2. Teamwork: explain (during PC introduction) combo's and common tactics that your PC relies on, or can contribute too (i need combat advantage, i'm a warlord, i grant bonuses to damage in certain situations, etc.).
3. back-seat drivers: If you really are setting something up and do/don't want a player to do something, it's your responsibility to communicate that to the other player BEFORE his/her turn whenever possible. Communication is the key.
4. Do the math. Come up with a spreadsheet of modifiers. If you're not good at math, get a die roller program, or make a spreadsheet in advance. It doesn't hurt to write down your bonuses before your turn - I did this a lot in 3.5 with my power attacking barbarian. I always had scratch paper handy to write on just before my turn.
5. Remember what hits and misses, or write it down. I keep track of the lowest known hit and highest known miss for each badguys main defenses (typically just AC and REF, unless I have a PC that targets WILL a lot). This is helpful in lots of ways, you know when you hit/miss easily, and you know when it's good to use a +1 RPGA card bump. Also, in general; rolling a 1-5 should miss, and rolling a 15-20 should hit. You should ask for any die roll in between. Sometimes even in the 15-18 range if your PC is sub-optimal or it's a nasty high level elite soldier.
6. Keep track of initiative, don't bug a player who's about to go and be aware of when it's about to be your turn. Some DM's make initiative orders "public knowledge" (but they're rare). Nothing stops you from keeping track separtely.
7. Honestly, having that scratch paper where you keep track of monster defenses and init order keeps you more focused on the game, and less likely to get distracted.
8. If you've had more than 2 DM's ask you about something you're doing (your high to-hit, your high defenses, etc.) then pro-actively tell every DM at the beginning of each mod "i have silly high defenses, don't be surprised if you miss me, because i took a bunch of feats/items to do that, here's how). This (hopefully) avoids DM's stopping the game to query your abilities mid-combat.
9 if you can't reach the table, ask someone else to move your mini. don't spend 10 minutes moving your mini 5 squares or trying to put a marker on the table. Don't put markers UNDER mini's, because it takes longer, you bump mini's and mess up the battle-mat (slowing things down). use markers that go on top of mini's and are easy to add/remove.
for DMs:
1. know the monsters and powers ahead of time, including weird rules items and understanding odd mechanics (like underwater combat if it applies).
2. pre-draw maps whenever possible.
3. pre-roll monster init, and the have the INIT system ready to go head of time- including writing down which init token are paired with which monster and miniatures (even if the mini's are just colored/numbered tokens).
4. ask the players (before the game) if they have any weird rules items you need to be aware of. In paragon mods, I've gotten into the habit of having each player describe their PP ability (level 11 ability and action point ability) so the other players know, and the player REMEMBERS it.
5. Don't rewind. If a player (or you) forgets something (like a +2 damage) either quickly write it down or ignore it- but be consistent. Don't slow the game down to rewind because a player forgot he shouldn't be dazed because it was a sunny day in Aglarond and he has a power that makes that happen.
Long post (sorry)
Yeah but that's a good post, you hit the majority of issues, and there's some good advice.
I got one more reason for slow-down: (one of my growing pet peeves)-
When people interrupt someone who's going to chide them for taking a long time on their turn- as this ALWAYS makes the turn take longer. (Person feels they need to defend themself, then the accuser needs to explain why they think the person is taking to long, etc).
One other important variable: basic math.
Most players can add up d20+10 pretty quickly and 1d10+6 pretty quickly too.
On the other hand, a lot of players seem to have trouble with d20+17 (especially if there are 2 rounds where leader buffs may be applicable) and 2d10+3d8+15 also seems to take a lot longer for players to add up (again, doubly so if there is a leader buff to damage).
Where I live, one local player had to write a computer program to be able to handle his paragon rogue's attacks in a timely manner.
Writing down your damage for when you crit is a good idea from my view. Why spend every time you crit saying ok 2d10 20 plus 3d8 24 plus 15, so 59 plus 3d8 and oh yeah it's high crit so 2d10 more.... simply write on the power list critical 59+3d8+2d10. It's easier to add those leader powers in if you already know your base damage values instead of adding them up each time.
The biggest pet peeve I have is people who for some reason just don't have the right dice. Like they crit and don't have any of the crit dice available or out. Or they have one of each and no more than that but have a level 13 character. I'm a strong believer of having at least 1 of each die out, and enough of each type that you can roll in one roll anything you need to do. If you're a rogue using a d8 weapon and sneak attack is 3d8, please have at least 4d8 or more available, waiting for you to roll the same one 4 times adds up. If I have a 5w attack I make sure I have 5 of them out. if my crit dice is 3d8+4d6+1d10+2d4 (which it is on my rogue lol) I make sure I have a set of those lying out and ready. Horrible math and not enough dice is often a bad combination that results in a lot of waiting.
The biggest pet peeve I have is people who for some reason just don't have the right dice. Like they crit and don't have any of the crit dice available or out.
The worst part of it is, people like you and me would probably be able to handle it fine even if we didn't have our crit damage pre-worked and all the right dice on the table - it's the people who really need it that don't do it.
Paragon mods can run long, but the biggest variable is still players. My number one gripe is: pay attention to the situation, and know what you are doing when your turn comes up. I regularly see some of the locals who I consider very good D&D players (good builds, know what their characters role is, solid damage output, etc.) take forever because they don't decide what to do until their turn comes around. This is not paragon specific, but it is certainly magnified when presented with new powers, paragon paths, and other options.
In my experience one group of people who create highly effective characters do so because they love to sort through all the options and pick the best ones. These same people do the same when in a fight, especially if it proves to be a hard fight, and hence can be quite slow. For a combat to run fast, you either need a very intuitive sense of tactics, or be willing to accept the fact that you might not pick the best option. A friend of mine falls in this group, and he knows all the tricks to speed up combat. It is just that he has difficulties making a decision, but usually reminding him it is a game and since he is a smart person all the options he contemplates work and none is going to be a fatal blunder ;) Hack, at times I am such a player and DM and I need to remind myself that it is OK to make a minor mistake or two ;)
Paragon mods can run long, but the biggest variable is still players. My number one gripe is: pay attention to the situation, and know what you are doing when your turn comes up. I regularly see some of the locals who I consider very good D&D players (good builds, know what their characters role is, solid damage output, etc.) take forever because they don't decide what to do until their turn comes around. This is not paragon specific, but it is certainly magnified when presented with new powers, paragon paths, and other options.
Oh, and this is happening with level 12 and 13 PCs, so they have been playing them for a few mods.
Doh, don't tell them how slow I am!
Yeah but that's a good post, you hit the majority of issues, and there's some good advice.
I got one more reason for slow-down: (one of my growing pet peeves)-
When people interrupt someone who's going to chide them for taking a long time on their turn- as this ALWAYS makes the turn take longer. (Person feels they need to defend themself, then the accuser needs to explain why they think the person is taking to long, etc).
This does happen sometimes. Oftentimes, however, it serves as a reminder for people that don't realize how long their turn is taking.
When people know their turn is going to be cut off after 1 minute, they tend to speed things up. In fact, debilitating conditions such as daze/stun/dominate/etc. become more debilitating when people take long turns and combat rounds last forever, and become less debilitating and more fun when people take quick turns and combat rounds go by more quickly.
When people interrupt someone who's going to chide them for taking a long time on their turn- as this ALWAYS makes the turn take longer. (Person feels they need to defend themself, then the accuser needs to explain why they think the person is taking to long, etc).
If the person starts their turn with "where are we again?" I will gladly start in on the "what's taking so long is you not paying attention ..."
On the flip side, there is a lot of stuff that can happen in a round, so I don't always fault folks for not knowing what is going on.
Still, there's a couple of players out there ...
I become frustrated by players who have to make the optimal move and consider all options (or at least several of them) once it is there turn. However, there is a sizable portion of the playerbase who play largely for that strategic aspect. I think alnog side playing with optimized characters and reward cards, taking long overconsidered turns is another one of those things that should preclude a player from complaining about mods being too easy. "Of course they are, you are overthinking them!"
My bigger pet peeve is "overdeclaring" your turns. Py paragon level, I should assume players have the basic concepts down and we should be able to trust the bonuses applied. Formally stating all of it just takes time. In my mind, all you really need to do is state the resources you have used (in-game description optional depending on play group) roll the die and state the result. I'd much rather leave it to the DM to ask if he or she thinks it sounds a bit fishy than go through every step and potentially open rules discussions and "advising" with other players. Not only does it speed up play but, avoids interplayer conflict and I believe even might support story immersion a bit better by keeping the rules a bit more in the background.