Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Cailte Jan 15, 2010 22:11:19	Rituals are an odd thing, they create a situation where a PC might have a simple solution to a nominally complex problem. I know I've had it happen to me before in setting up encounters only to have them Make Whole the difficulty away. But with the release of the '09 cards comes access to a bunch of rituals that create interesting options for players and might well create problems for authors. In particular those rituals that allow planar travel. Yet the key is that author's shouldn't be trying to stop players from using their abilities, but rather actively seeking to incorporate them into the adventure. One such example is Fey Passage which should be greatly useful in a particular module already (but should not have been widely available if at all when the module was released) yet that module says "you must go through the whole skill challenge for your ritual to work" which I think is a problem. The adventure in question allows any other ritual to gain 1 success, but says "Fey Passage causes failure if used without the all the successes" (paraphrased). It is terribly unclear why Fey Passage could not simply give 2 successes to the skill challenge. As a result this module is essentially going to punish people who have the Ritual that is most relevant to the adventure for wanting to use it, a situation that should be avoided in the future.
#2 elder_basilisk Jan 15, 2010 23:28:59	The best solution is probably: "don't be afraid to let PC abilities bypass your skill challenge." The story does not really turn on the PCs running to fifty different NPCs to listen to all the box text anyway. Instead, it turns on the PCs uncovering the information they need or getting where they want to go. And it goes for utility powers too. I can't count the number of times my warlock was told, "well, that rending fear of Khirad power is nifty and all, but I'm not going to let you skip the skill challenge because the guy tells you everything you need to know right now." (Actually, I can count them--one DM was honest enough to say that up front). And if that invalidates the random thug attack in the middle of the investigation encounter, oh well. That's not original or good adventure writing anyway. Come up with something else.
#3 Cailte Jan 16, 2010 21:52:28	See I suspect that is a DM thing rather than a module thing. I honestly don't expect the authors to try and think of every possible PC intereaction or power when writting modules - that is what DME is for. What I'm worried about is authors specifically prohibiting (and worse denying XP for using) things that are clearly strongly tied to the situation - like the Fey Passage ritual example.
#4 elder_basilisk Jan 17, 2010 1:56:33	See I suspect that is a DM thing rather than a module thing. I honestly don't expect the authors to try and think of every possible PC intereaction or power when writting modules - that is what DME is for. What I'm worried about is authors specifically prohibiting (and worse denying XP for using) things that are clearly strongly tied to the situation - like the Fey Passage ritual example. No, when it comes to the interaction of basic player's handbook rituals (and similar non-corner case rules) with the module's plot, it's basic adventure writing 101 and it is the responsibility of the author to account for them. A good DM will be able to do so on the fly, but with a good module, he shouldn't have to. Just like a 3rd edition author would have failed if he failed to consider the impact of detect evil, scrying, or teleport on his plot, a fourth edition author who fails to consider the impact of abilities like fey step, cantrips, linked portal, and speak with dead has also failed. That is not the only way to fail, however. In your example, the author obviously considered the fey passage ritual and decided to essentially ban it by DM fiat. You recognize that as a writing failure, but it is actually symptomatic of a more general failure to write a flexible adventure. Why is it that the author treated the ritual the way he did? As I see it, it can only be to ensure that the players go through all of the scenes for the skill challenge or make all of the skill rolls in the skill challenge. Thus, either the author is too terrified that someone might not play out his die rolling exercise to write "the Fey Passage ritual results in automatic success on the skill challenge; skip it and move on" or has scattered information that is crucial to the story of the module in the scenes of that skill challenge. (And thus the plot might suffer if PCs bypass the skill challenge). Otherwise, there is no reason to add the text about fey passage. Now, if it is the first issue then the author needs to get over himself and let players use their abilities. That is supposed to be the point of a skill challenge to begin with. If, on the other hand, it is the second and the skill challenge contains crucial information, then the author needs to consider alternate ways to present that information.
#5 gomeztoo Jan 17, 2010 4:23:30	I think banning rituals is in general a bad idea, but I can see enough possibilities (depending on adventure plot) why the ritual would not work as expected (unless the skillchallenge is a complexity 1). From the (basic) description given I would expect that the ritual gives me one or more successes, if only to maye one realize why it doesn't work and provide alternate avenues. It's hard to say though without knowing the adventure.
#6 Cailte Jan 17, 2010 4:26:20	Ok there are 268 Rituals currently in the Compendium, there are 1325 Utility Powers in the compendium and just restricting that to level 1 to 10 from Rulebooks still turns out 496. I have a reasonable expectation that an author not know all that stuff. The issue with the adventure I've been using as an example is that the author allows any other ritual to gain a success and says "you fail" if you use "this" ritual, when the ritual is designed specifically for what the author has generated the skill challenge to do, and the author was even clearly aware of the ritual.
#7 bgibbons Jan 17, 2010 8:37:26	The issue with the adventure I've been using as an example is that the author allows any other ritual to gain a success and says "you fail" if you use "this" ritual, when the ritual is designed specifically for what the author has generated the skill challenge to do, and the author was even clearly aware of the ritual. Not exactly. The skill challenge is to find a particular portal that an NPC used to transport himself to a specific place in the Feywild. The Fey Passage ritual lets you use any fey crossing (whether active or not) to transport to the Feywild.  The module specifies that if the PCs discuss using that ritual, an NPC will remind them that are a number of fey crossings nearby, and that it's unlikely that a randomly-chosen one will lead them to the right area. I can quibble with the module author's automatically deciding they pick the wrong one (I would have had the caster roll a d20 and succeed on a natural 20), but the basic idea--using a ritual to get you somewhere on the Feywild where the challenge was to get to a specific place in the Feywild is a failure--seems correct, and specifying that an NPC gives them advance warning of this fact ensures that they aren't unfairly taken by surprise. I don't see this is an author punishing someone for knowing the right ritual to bypass a skill challenge, but rather noting that there's a ritual that's in the right neighborhood but doesn't actually obviate the need for research first.
#8 gomeztoo Jan 17, 2010 9:12:11	Still, it will get them to the feywild. One could argue that is a success - you only then need to find that specific place... potentially you could use the original skill challenge for some of that (well, I assume you will need to make a few adaptations). Gomez
#9 Ore Jan 17, 2010 14:49:59	I have used rituals in skill challenges before. In fact, I am known as one of the players who uses rituals more often than most but I have never been able to bypass an entire skill challenge. Usually a ritual earns me a single success as part of the skill challenge while allows me to benefit from ritual usage without breaking skill challenges. In fact, that is how I assumed rituals would play out during skill challenges from the beginning and that is how every DM I have played with has handled it.
#10 Keith53 Jan 17, 2010 18:23:52	I hope that no skill challenge is designed such that a single ritual (available at that level) would accomplish the entire goal of the skill challenge, but I suppose it could happen.  Certainly a ritual could count as a success, perhaps a couple of successes, time and cost being a factor.  It is a little unfair to say that the authors must be aware of all rituals and all utility powers and all items that might impact the skill challenge.  Sure, I hope they are aware of more obvious ones. Keith
#11 Cailte Jan 17, 2010 19:01:47	The skill challenge is to find a particular portal that an NPC used to transport himself to a specific place in the Feywild. Which you do not arrive at even after completing the skill challenge! So why exactly does the Ritual not work again other than the author saying "no you must do my skill challenge, you cannot use your character's abilities that do what my skill challenge does"
#12 bgibbons Jan 18, 2010 10:08:24	So why exactly does the Ritual not work again other than the author saying "no you must do my skill challenge, you cannot use your character's abilities that do what my skill challenge does" I think this is more a basic issue with the way LFR does skill challenges. I don't see skill challenges as something you can fail, in the sense of getting less overall XP than possible.  Rather, I see them as more determining which path you take to the end--you might bluff your way past the guard, avoid them altogether or fail to do either and end up fighting them, but in the end you earn the same XP.  You're going to earn X amount of XP, either by succeeding at a skill challenge or by having that XP added to another encounter to make it harder than it otherwise would, but the final amount is all the same. That's not the way LFR does skill challenges.  Instead, you get a specific challenge, which if you succeed, earns you X XP.  If you fail, you earn X/2 XP, lose a healing surge and get hand-waved that you end up more-or-less in the same place a success would get you.  Sometimes, failure means that you get a bonus encounter to make up the lost XP, sometimes the author's whim was different and you don't. In this case, the challenge is to determine (through a variety of means) what particular fey crossing leads to a particular area of the Feywild and go through it.  If you succeed, you find the right fey crossing, go through it, end up near enough that you can easily find what you're looking for, and earn 900/1500 XP.  If use Fey Passage to go through a random fey crossing, you end up somewhere in the Feywild.  You don't end up in the near vicinity of the person you're looking for, but you eventually get there, losing a healing surge in the process, and only earn 450/750 XP. Sure, I think a DM could (maybe, depending on how you view the DME limitations) make up an XP-granting skill challenge to make up for the fact that the research skill challenge is now irrelevant, but I can't say a DM is required to (and given the module specifies that using this ritual is a failure, I'm not sure I would go against that as a DM).  You end up in the same place, you just lose some XP for doing so.  Yeah, it's not the way I would do it if I were writing a module, but it's well within the norm for LFR. Using this ritual (especially after the NPC warns you of the consequences) is equivalent to stopping a "diplomatize the NPC for information" encounter by punching said NPC in the face and declaring you're going bar-hopping to get the information.  It's quite likely you'd end up in the same place in the end, but you wouldn't get the XP the module had allocated to overcoming that particular challenge. I think you'd have a fair complaint if it wasn't specified that an NPC pops up and warns you that using the ritual won't succeed, but it's not as though you get blindsided and punished.  It's more like being warned that, no, this NPC is really the only one who has the information you need, so if you punch him in the face, it doesn't matter if you think you should be able to find the information elsewhere, you're going to get docked XP.
#13 Cailte Jan 18, 2010 21:46:15	Ok let us break it down: What do you have to do? Ans: Go to the Feywild. How will the PCs get there? Ans: They will need a means to reach the Feywild, this is best covered by a skill challenge because it cannot be certain a given party will have any other means. Are there any other ways to get there? Ans: Some PCs may have access to the Feywild Crossing ritual and thus be able to reach the Feywild without the Skill Challenge. Does the Skill Challenge serve the purpose of the Ritual for those without it? Ans: Yes. Will most Party's be without it? Ans: As a restricted item requiring a card, most likely. What are the possible ways of dealing with the conflict between the skill challenge and the Ritual? Ans: 1) Allow the ritual to work and provide an alternate skill challenge or combat for those who use it. 2) Allow the Ritual to grant 1 or more successes 3) Ban the Ritual from the skill challenge. The author chose to ban the ritual, and then imposed a further penalty for people who wanted to use their character's power that is for this exact purpose (excepting having completed the skill challenge). That is a direct punishment for having a solution to the problem, especially when you consider there were alternate ways of dealing with the problem.
#14 JohnduBois Jan 19, 2010 7:43:45	I'm not entirely confident that, except in edge cases, the rituals should even be explicitly spelled out in the adventure. The DM should be looking at the rituals and determining their potential effect on the situation (and warning the PCs of any obvious effects before they do it). For example, in a recent playtest, the PCs were in a skill challenge to (A) navigate up a mountain, and (B) mark the easiest trail for future expeditions. The PCs wanted to cast Trailblaze. My response was, "well, that'll certainly bypass some navigation, but how will you mark the more passable areas when your ritual suppresses the hazardous terrain?" The party found another way to accomplish the same objective (Phantom Steeds - this particular day, we had a lot of ritual casters at the table).
#15 stephendaniels Jan 19, 2010 10:46:33	hmmm, my view of the skill challenge in question (and just to declare my interest, I was the DM involved in this particular game). Objective: To travel to the feywild USING THE PORTAL THE NPC USED (so as to be closest to his destination one would assume) To make a "real" world analogy: Imagine you must travel to the continental United States and locate a man living in the major city he travelled to 50 years ago. Following the skill challenge would be like finding out that you need to get to Washington DC and find a Senator's home and the closest place you can get a flight to the city from. Using Feywild crossing blind should not and does not result in auto-success, it gets you to Los Angeles Airport (or if you're lucky, Chicago - it's at least a little closer to where you need to go) In many ways it IS a punishment to those who have the ritual, but only if they use it without thinking through the consequences.  That said - I too dislike things being "proscribed" without good PLOT driven reasons. In a home game I would have allowed the use of the ritual - and then created an entirely new (and more "challenging" challenge) as the PCs now have to find out where they are and where they must go WITHOUT recourse to the journals, notes and NPCs that they have left on the Prime Material.
#16 dkay807 Jan 19, 2010 11:10:43	You can't expect authors to take all rituals into account. However, good authors will consider the following at a minimum: Flying Teleportation Forced Movement and precipitous falls Arcane Gate (grr...) Speak with Dead Hand of Fate
#17 fugacityfixyoursite Jan 19, 2010 12:50:33	Hand of Fate This especially would have solved the challenge quickly, either by precise directions to the portal (you have 3 questions and 10 minutes, you can triangulate a position) or buy a divide and conquer approach (given n choices you can roughly determine which one in log2(n)/3 ritual uses).
#18 JohnduBois Jan 19, 2010 12:53:42	Hand of Fate This especially would have solved the challenge quickly, either by precise directions to the portal (you have 3 questions and 10 minutes, you can triangulate a position) or buy a divide and conquer approach (given n choices you can roughly determine which one in log2(n)/3 ritual uses). Regarding the divide-and-conquer approach, I have this insensitive-but-oh-so-funny mental image of the blind guy doing the Rubik's Cube in UHF. "Is this it? Is this it? Is this it?"
#19 mvincent Jan 19, 2010 15:19:00	Still, it will get them to the feywild. One could argue that is a success - you only then need to find that specific place... potentially you could use the original skill challenge for some of that (well, I assume you will need to make a few adaptations). Yes, ideally a DM could adapt and effectively switch to a different, impromptu skill challenge (as per DMG p.28 "Saying Yes"). However, LFR adventures aren't often written with that assumption (I imagine for a few reasons), so a DM that doesn't feel up to the task could always fall back on "your character knows that wouldn't work because [blah blah]". In this case, the author was probably taking DMG p.27 to heart: "Design your adventures accordingly, paying careful attention to the ritual descriptions in the Player’s Handbook. Don’t give the characters less than they’re entitled to, but don’t let them short-circuit your whole adventure by using rituals, either." "If allowing the ritual to succeed would throw a monkey wrench into your plans for the adventure, you’d be within your rights to rule that the ritual failed to locate the intended target because the caster’s description wasn’t specific enough." Still, the general paradigm seems to be: a ritual often counts as one automatic success on a skill challenge. This is approximately the same reward as say bribery or unexpectedly ingenious planning/roleplaying. From DMG p.74: "Characters might have access to utility powers or rituals that can help them. These might allow special uses of skills, perhaps with a bonus. Rituals in particular might grant an automatic success or remove failures from the running total."
#20 JohnduBois Jan 19, 2010 15:36:48	Yes, ideally a DM could adapt and effectively switch to a different, impromptu skill challenge (as per DMG p.28 "Saying Yes"). However, LFR adventures aren't often written with that assumption (I imagine for a few reasons), so a DM that doesn't feel up to the task could always fall back on "your character knows that wouldn't work because [blah blah]". Ok, I'm bored enough that I'll bite on this (and possibly create a discussion that will lead to a thread fork). Why is it that you think LFR adventures are written such that they're not compatible with the "Saying Yes" philosophy, as long as the party stays on task? Sure something like, "I don't like that mission; you got anything else?" wouldn't work in an LFR context (except during a MYRE), but what is it about the LFR system that limits a DM's ability to adapt to the actions of the PCs?
#21 mvincent Jan 19, 2010 15:57:24	what is it about the LFR system that limits a DM's ability to adapt to the actions of the PCs? It's not that it actually limits the DM, merely that it is justifiably written with limitations... since it's easier for an experienced DM to ignore the limitations than for an inexperienced DM to try to manage a no-limits scenario. LFR adventures can't really really be written with the expectation that any given DM is either very experienced or has prior knowledge of the PC's. Standardization is also a goal of the LFR format. I'm not saying this is bad at all, merely acknowledging certain expected (even if unwritten) limitations of the venue.
#22 Mirtek Jan 19, 2010 16:56:52	You can't expect authors to take all rituals into account. However, good authors will consider the following at a minimum: Flying Teleportation Forced Movement and precipitous falls Arcane Gate (grr...) Speak with Dead Hand of Fate Don't forget Inquisitive's Eyes it's much worse than just speaking with the dead
#23 Cailte Jan 19, 2010 21:43:13	hmmm, my view of the skill challenge in question (and just to declare my interest, I was the DM involved in this particular game). To be honest Stephen your running of the module was great and is irrelevant to the matter, which I originally just used as an example. The problem is that you cannot get a success at all with the ritual! Not even "find the right spot and use the ritual for the last success" just "unless you have all the succcesses the ritual generates an automatic failure" - hence a punishment. In fact it is the only ritual you cannot generate a success with in this skill challenge! To use your real world analgoy it is like having found the right airport to fly to and having your own private plane to get there in and when you arrive finding that no matter what you do you cannot land.
#24 bgibbons Jan 20, 2010 10:44:02	For example, in a recent playtest, the PCs were in a skill challenge to (A) navigate up a mountain, and (B) mark the easiest trail for future expeditions. The PCs wanted to cast Trailblaze. That hits one of my peeves: Players who seem to stop reading at the ritual/power/feat name and flavor text and then just assume the ability does whatever they think it should do based on the name. I can understand how this happens, particularly in cases where the ritual/power/feat is of such limited applicability that you're so excited when a situation comes up that makes it close to useful that you'd prefer the DM not be that picky about the details. But, no, you can use the Rule of Cool in home games, where abilities work however it would be most fun/cinematic/interesting; in LFR, however, they work how the rules say they work, and sometimes using the close-but-not-really-on-point ability can put you in a worse position than if you didn't use an ability at all.
#25 JohnduBois Jan 20, 2010 10:48:39	For example, in a recent playtest, the PCs were in a skill challenge to (A) navigate up a mountain, and (B) mark the easiest trail for future expeditions. The PCs wanted to cast Trailblaze. That hits one of my peeves: Players who seem to stop reading at the ritual/power/feat name and flavor text and then just assume the ability does whatever they think it should do based on the name. I can understand how this happens, particularly in cases where the ritual/power/feat is of such limited applicability that you're so excited when a situation comes up that makes it close to useful that you'd prefer the DM not be that picky about the details. But, no, you can use the Rule of Cool in home games, where abilities work however it would be most fun/cinematic/interesting; in LFR, however, they work how the rules say they work, and sometimes using the close-but-not-really-on-point ability can put you in a worse position than if you didn't use an ability at all. This particular example wasn't an issue of the players not knowing how the ritual worked - in fact, they've previously done precisely what they were trying to do; Trailblaze obliterates skill challenges based on navigating terrain. In the example I used, they had simply forgotten that they were also supposed to mark the trail. Once I reminded them, they figured out on their own that Trailblaze was a poor choice.