My table was: Rogue2, Rogue1, Fighter1, Barbarian4, Artificer3, Warlock3, Monk1. I was the warlock.
The other table was: Rogue3, Swordmage3, Warden1, Sorcerer1, Shaman3, Ranger2, Warlord2.
Both of the tables DOMINATED this module. They had two tables of 7 because my area doesn't like turning people away. The DM I had used some offbrand fit-together dungeon tiles from a diffferent game and WoW minis for large creatures; for the third encounter, he drew the map out and somehow completely failed to keep to the straight lines on the grid. It was....frustrating. Needless to say, the DM I had changed the entire module around, glancing at the minis across the way at the other table. We had over a dozen minions and one big guy in the first encounter, two big guys and 3 minions in encounter 2, and two big guys in encounter 3, none of which he ever answered me when I asked what they actually were.
But I digress.
I have a feeling that even with his changes, if he knew how to keep them the same difficulty (which I doubted), it didn't do much to change how easy this module was. The other table that was running the module as written had maybe two people that got hurt at all during each encounter, whereas in encounter two everyone but me ended up bloodied. Regardless, this was one of the easiest modules I have ever seen, and I don't even fully know how it was supposed to be ran.
Has anyone else had a similar experience with CORE1-2?
Your experience is most likely explained by (apparently) extensive changes to the mod and having seven player tables along with a DM whose ability (judging by your post which is all we have to go on) may be suspect. It's not Bald 1-1, but it can be a challenging mod.
We failed miserable the second time we played it (4 player table, playing high, though we did take a short rest). We 'survived' because my PC surrendered and bargained for the other's lives (she was taken along and sold on a slave market in a follow-up adventure, where a PC bought her free).
I ran it once, and in the final encounter kiled two PCs. I later discovered that some of the monsters did not kill characters (it's easy to overlook), but since one PC died of poison that didn't matter so much.
In all, it can be quite a challenging adventure. I woudl not call it easy (at least not the last fight). And it has some very cool ideas.
That final combat, and in all cases with a short rest, can be a real challenge. One PC is often locked into dealing with the one thing, all while some fairly high-damage can come your way. Throw in inexperienced players or non-story-focus players that ignore the clue that tones it down, and you can easily end up with an overwhelmed party. We ran it twice at GameStorm a few months back with one TPK with inexperienced non-story players and one down-to-the-wire with experienced players (enjoyed by all).
You can't really complain about low difficulty when you run an LFR mod with seven PCs.
Agreed. I'd advise the OP to not judge the module until he sees how it runs with a legal table, and a prepared DM.
IME (having played it once, and run it 3 times), while the first combats aren't terribly difficult, the final one should be a good challenge for most parties, especially since most parties will find themselves "short" a participant due to the concurrent skill challenge.
Of course, I played with no Short Rest between the last two encounters, and the DM counted monsters as Hard Corners, so we didn't make it to the skill challenge until too late.
But still.
Orcs in a human village and killing them ruins the mod. The writers lost my human paladin right there. Right with CORE 1-1 and CORE 1-3 (ok, core 1-3 is fun for me to run, but most people for whom I've run it didn't have LG paladins).
Orcs in a human village and killing them ruins the mod.
I'm very curious now...help me understand what you mean by that.
Details about the module follow in the sblock:
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There are two distinct groups of orcs in this module. One is the "natives"...descendents of orcs who had helped the locals fight off the Tuigan Horde over a hundred years ago, and were welcomed to settle down in the region, which they did. As orcs go, these orcs are quite civilized.
The second group is the antagonists -- a group of mercenaries, not from the area, who had been hired by Thayans to kidnap Sibbya. The mercenaries took advantage of the fact that the locals trust orcs far moreso than the typical non-orc commoner would, and bluffed their way into temporarily settling into the farming village, just long enough for them to identify Sibbya and make off with her. Since the orcish herbalist (whose name escapes me) had started to suspect them, they poisoned him as they left the village.
What exactly bothers you? The fact that there are "friendly orcs" in Thesk? Or, the fact that you need to "deal with" (not necessarily kill; see below) some orcs, despite the fact that the module sets up a group of friendly orcs?
The second group is the antagonists -- a group of mercenaries, not from the area, who had been hired by Thayans to kidnap Sibbya. The mercenaries took advantage of the fact that the locals trust orcs far moreso than the typical non-orc commoner would, and bluffed their way into temporarily settling into the farming village, just long enough for them to identify Sibbya and make off with her. Since the orcish herbalist (whose name escapes me) had started to suspect them, they poisoned him as they left the village.
What exactly bothers you? The fact that there are "friendly orcs" in Thesk? Or, the fact that you need to "deal with" (not necessarily kill; see below) some orcs, despite the fact that the module sets up a group of friendly orcs?
I'm very curious now...help me understand what you mean by that.
Details about the module follow in the sblock:ShowThere are two distinct groups of orcs in this module. One is the "natives"...descendents of orcs who had helped the locals fight off the Tuigan Horde over a hundred years ago, and were welcomed to settle down in the region, which they did. As orcs go, these orcs are quite civilized.
The second group is the antagonists -- a group of mercenaries, not from the area, who had been hired by Thayans to kidnap Sibbya. The mercenaries took advantage of the fact that the locals trust orcs far moreso than the typical non-orc commoner would, and bluffed their way into temporarily settling into the farming village, just long enough for them to identify Sibbya and make off with her. Since the orcish herbalist (whose name escapes me) had started to suspect them, they poisoned him as they left the village.
What exactly bothers you? The fact that there are "friendly orcs" in Thesk? Or, the fact that you need to "deal with" (not necessarily kill; see below) some orcs, despite the fact that the module sets up a group of friendly orcs?
1) As a LG Human Paladin who kills monsters, I wanted to attack the town. I didn't like having to "suck it up" and treat the Orcs like ... [human] citizens. I hated CORE 1-1 for a similar reason (I didn't get to be LAWFUL). CORE 1-3 (see a pattern here) was similarly disappointing when I couldn't ignore the Gnome and just go killing evil people. But, hey, it's LFR, no RP needed.
Wanting to slaughter residents of a town for what they are rather than anything they have (or have not) done does not strike me as particularly Lawful. Doesn't strike me as particularly good either.
And you were free to ignore the Gnome and go find something more to your tastes to do. Of course, that means that you ignore the Gnome and don;t get to do the rest of the module, but that's your choice. If the table agrees, you collect our encounter of XP and can jump right into another module. MOON1-1 works very well for this purpose.
Or were you suggesting that the modules should happen like clockwork regardless of you actual actions?
1) As a LG Human Paladin who kills monsters, I wanted to attack the town. I didn't like having to "suck it up" and treat the Orcs like ... [human] citizens.
According to the FRCG, the orcs who helped Faerun fight the Tuigan horde were accepted and welcomed into communities where those battles took place--particularly Thesk. They are just as much lawful and productive citizens of the villages and cities of that area as any other race.
As a part of the campaign staff, and as the writer of that particular adventure, I would ask you what you would have me do in cases like this? Ignore the FR setting?
It seems strangely paradoxical to say that you didn't like to have to treat orcs like citizens, which is a bit of a unique piece of FR in this area and would be different from a normal hack n' slash adventure, and then to say . . .
But, hey, it's LFR, no RP needed.
I was hoping that the dynamic would actually encourage roleplaying. Here are orcs accepted as citizens, working side by side with other races. That is exactly the place where roleplaying is needed. It is the perfect opportunity for PCs who are lawful and good but hate orcs to roleplay that conflict. Many tables where I DMed the adventure had good experiences roleplaying through this.
2) If two monsters were diagonally adjacent, I could shift (or move drawing an OA) through their line and run to the [SKILL CHALLENGE].
I'm sorry your DM ran this incorrectly. Not only is that an incorrect ruling, but the adventure clearly states that
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any PCs who are actively trying to save Sibbya and her child should be let past the bad guys to help her. The bad guys do not want her or her child to die any more than the PCs.
IME (having played it once, and run it 3 times), while the first combats aren't terribly difficult, the final one should be a good challenge for most parties, especially since most parties will find themselves "short" a participant due to the concurrent skill challenge.
Most of the time when I've run it or seen it run, the skill challenge is ignored for a few rounds of focusing on the monsters. Maybe a word of encouragement and a heal tossed her way to tide things over, but the critters get dropped within a few rounds, then they can focus on birthing the baby.
Initiative can play a big factor here though; with a full table, it's pretty easy for the party to get stuck in the hallway (or to have just 1 person out into the room proper.)
-Rozman
As to the peaceful town of orcs, I didn't like that either but it did not approach nearly the immersion breaking level that the intro did. It has other difficulties. Specifically, while it makes some sense from a FR standpoint (FR has always had its contingents of good drow, etc), it runs headlong into the star-trek alien problem (which is to say, all non-human races really turn out to just be humans with prosthetic foreheads and ears). If dealing with orcs is no different from dealing with humans except that they have different racial powers and prosthetic foreheads, then there is not much point in having them be orcs.
Initiative can play a big factor here though; with a full table, it's pretty easy for the party to get stuck in the hallway (or to have just 1 person out into the room proper.)
Agreed on this point...if the party gets poor Initiative checks, it's pretty easy to wind up with the dreaded "door clog."
Wanting to slaughter residents of a town for what they are rather than anything they have (or have not) done does not strike me as particularly Lawful. Doesn't strike me as particularly good either.
You said it better than I could, Telvin.
DarthAlias, I think it'd be different if you said, "my PC hates orcs, orcs killed every member of his family, he kills all orcs on sight" (sort of like how the character Hettar in David Eddings' Belgariad books feels about Murgos)...at that point, I think you might get some sympathy from folks here on being unable to role-play your character as you'd like in that module. (OTOH, maybe it'd be a learning experience for that sort of character, to be forced to confront his own prejudices, and see that not all orcs are evil.)
But, to say, "my paladin is Lawful Good, and he didn't get a chance to kill this village full of orcs", when it's clear that the village is full of law-abiding, probably good-aligned orcs, who have lived in harmony with their human neighbors for generations...not gonna get a lot of sympathy here.
Wanting to slaughter residents of a town for what they are rather than anything they have (or have not) done does not strike me as particularly Lawful. Doesn't strike me as particularly good either.
And you were free to ignore the Gnome and go find something more to your tastes to do. Of course, that means that you ignore the Gnome and don;t get to do the rest of the module, but that's your choice. If the table agrees, you collect our encounter of XP and can jump right into another module. MOON1-1 works very well for this purpose.
Or were you suggesting that the modules should happen like clockwork regardless of you actual actions?
Actually, I really like CORE 1-3, and I amused at least myself by repeatedly saying "Do you know how much XP this town is worth?" I was disappointed, but it was one of my first LFR modules, before I realized that alignment is less than fluff and just serves pretty much just to irritate the specific class of people whose class requires an alignment. Which is why I hate CORE 1-1 and 1-2 and was only disappointed by 1-3.
Given the essentially random parties public LFR game days enable, it really sucks to have to choose between playing your character the way you want and the way the table wants.
I don't mind playing my character the way I want and taking the consequences (Humanocentric Lawful Good Paladins shouldn't really expect the world to bend over for them
), but I don't want to ruin other people's fun. This character was my first 4E, and I am trying to replicate a 1E TRUE paladin as much as possible.You said it better than I could, Telvin.
DarthAlias, I think it'd be different if you said, "my PC hates orcs, orcs killed every member of his family, he kills all orcs on sight" (sort of like how the character Hettar in David Eddings' Belgariad books feels about Murgos)...at that point, I think you might get some sympathy from folks here on being unable to role-play your character as you'd like in that module. (OTOH, maybe it'd be a learning experience for that sort of character, to be forced to confront his own prejudices, and see that not all orcs are evil.)
But, to say, "my paladin is Lawful Good, and he didn't get a chance to kill this village full of orcs", when it's clear that the village is full of law-abiding, probably good-aligned orcs, who have lived in harmony with their human neighbors for generations...not gonna get a lot of sympathy here.
I'm sorry my backstory doesn't meet your high standards. This was back at the beginning of 4E. I decided to try and play a 1E Paladin. Orcs are evil. Paladins fight evil. Dumpstat INT 8. 'nuff said. I don't care what a bunch of evil orc-sympathizers think, I was genuinely surprised to find a CORE module assuming a town of good orcs.
Anyway, I'm not looking for sympathy. I'm just stating that I hated the mod (and that was just one of many reasons). I have heard many people say good things about the mod. I'm glad they enjoyed it. I don't need to be snippy and say I don't have any sympathy for them. Hopefully I didn't come across as saying my opinion of / experience with the mod is the only one valid.
And, now this has been a while so please correct me if I'm wrong, but there wasn't much "overcome inner hostility towards Orcs", it was pretty much the mod authors say "you're in a town with good orcs", welcome to Deus Ex.
I'm sorry my backstory doesn't meet your high standards. This was back at the beginning of 4E. I decided to try and play a 1E Paladin. Orcs are evil. Paladins fight evil. Dumpstat INT 8. 'nuff said. I don't care what a bunch of evil orc-sympathizers think, I was genuinely surprised to find a CORE module assuming a town of good orcs.
Well, as Shawn said, it wasn't something that he made up..."civilized", non-evil orcs in Thesk have been an established part of FR canon for some time. (IIRC, there's a similar situation north of Luruar.)
I don't really have a problem with your backstory...but I'm curious how you decided that your "orcs are evil, I kill evil" paladin reacted to it? Did it make him re-evaluate anything?
Well, as Shawn said, it wasn't something that he made up..."civilized", non-evil orcs in Thesk have been an established part of FR canon for some time. (IIRC, there's a similar situation north of Luruar.)
I don't really have a problem with your backstory...but I'm curious how you decided that your "orcs are evil, I kill evil" paladin reacted to it? Did it make him re-evaluate anything?
Fair point. I didn't play 3E FR, so I wasn't familiar with Thesk, so I probably shouldn't blame the author. It just seems that a lot of the initial LFR CORE mods pretty much hosed people trying to play LG paladins.
CORE 1-1 -- Go to Sembia. But if you play Lawful, you might **** off the table.
CORE 1-2 -- Go to Thesk -- but if you don't close your eyes to orc-human miscegenation, you might **** off the table (it's one thing to have good orcs, it's another thing to let them date humans).
CORE 1-3 -- go to evil port city and ignore all the evil to help a gnome that essentially assaulted you, or **** off the table.
Oh, and after orcs kidnapped a human for part of a ritual, my paladin felt pretty validated in her beliefs.
CORE 1-2 -- Go to Thesk -- but if you don't close your eyes to orc-human miscegenation, you might **** off the table (it's one thing to have good orcs, it's another thing to let them date humans).
I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you here that what you describe above goes part-and-parcel with being a lawful good paladin, even a "1E-style" one.
If you want to create a PC who has that belief, no worries. But, I do believe that you can certainly play a lawful good paladin who does *not* have that sort of belief.
And, for the record, my primary in LG was a paladin of Heironeous. There were a few modules where he had serious difficulty with what was going on, but they were more the "we're working with the thieves' guild, wink wink" type situations.
It's always going to be a problem when you're playing in a living-style campaign, with an "extreme" character concept...there are going to be plot hooks that don't really work well with your character.
I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you here that what you describe above goes part-and-parcel with being a lawful good paladin, even a "1E-style" one.
If you want to create a PC who has that belief, no worries. But, I do believe that you can certainly play a lawful good paladin who does *not* have that sort of belief.
And, for the record, my primary in LG was a paladin of Heironeous. There were a few modules where he had serious difficulty with what was going on, but they were more the "we're working with the thieves' guild, wink wink" type situations.
It's always going to be a problem when you're playing in a living-style campaign, with an "extreme" character concept...there are going to be plot hooks that don't really work well with your character.
I quite agree -- being a LG Human Paladin does not *require* people to play like I do. But this is my first living campaign (and my first character in it), and generally people build their characters before play. I modeled mine after a cross between Joan of Arc and a [Gamma World] Pure Strain Human Knight of Genetic Purity. Hard Core Old School, if you will
Basically, I played the way I usually do the first time through a CRPG.
1. The first time I played this mod, we were TPKed in the final encounter. However, our party Warlord was a moron and the DM was rolling crits like you wouldn't believe.
2. I reskin this adventure when I run it as a star treak parody: "The Radiant Wessel of Trek". Gets lots of amusement. The gnome is instead a dwarf artificer named Welshy who needs help with a transporter experiment (a skill challenge, I drop the first combat encounter), the war veteran is actuall a cleric named McCay. The orcs are actually hobgoblins, and the hobgoblin who is assassinated as has the funeral is named Zock. Instead of burned he is launched into a nearbye lake on a thin boat while Welshy plays some bagpipes. Also, when they first ask around town about the Radiant Vessel, they meet a lad who has trouble pronouncing his V's. He hasn't heard of any Radiant Wessels, and asks if might be able to help him find the Nucleeor Wessles. It's in some town called Alameda, but he's not sure where that is.
And other silly stuff.