My character, Cabin Boy John Roberts is a Beastmaster-ranger with an omnivorous Maztican Indigo Macaw (Raptor). His home is in the Pirate Isles (Cormyr (Wheloon)). He is a human (Nexalan) and at 1st-level I chose the multi-class feat Net Training for John, and Beast Mastery (Thievery) for Black Bart the Macaw. Black Bart wears a little black vest & belt of custom made thieves tools. When John Roberts reached 2nd level, I chose the power Pack Awareness & the feat Beast Protector.
Our party reaches Encounter 5- Guardian Statistics and the first thing John does is actively search for traps. I make two rolls (due to Pack Awareness) and roll two natural 20s for totals of 30 & 29 perception checks. Because I was investigating the DM rules that John sets off the traps. I was expecting that John's perception checks would let him determine where the traps were & what would trigger them before actually triggering them. Our DM assured me that that was how it was written so I let it go. However, I'm highly irritated that the mod is written in such a way as looking for traps set them off.
Next round we fight elm & oak and eat magic arrows. Black Bart flys (at a run) to reach the trap to our right and John order's him to delay the trap (at +12+5(to delay)). Our DM determines that as that isn't an option in the Countermeasures description of the trap, that Black Bart can't do it, but he'll (the DM) will allow Black Bart to do it after 4 successes. In light of that determination I simply have Black Bart try to disable the trap and get a success.
Next round Black Bart's luck runs out and he botches his disable attempt and eats a magic arrow for 14 of his (thanks to just making 2nd level) 18 hit points.
Next round I have Black Bart retreat around a corner. John's moved up and throws his net over lower limbs and climbs 15' up to the trap that, thus far, only he & Black Bart can discern.
Next round all of the living creatures are dead and we're still eating magic arrows. John successfully makes another disable check.
Next round (after having swiped treasure from the pool) we simply retreat. Except for John Roberts & Black Bart, only our dwarf fighter Killadain saw the other hidden archer.
All in all I thought I could hardly have a character more suited to solve a particular problem and yet feel so impotent. That's not right.
My main character Wysiwyg, a Paladin of Mystra, has played through most of the 1-4 level modules, her AC is high enough that taking point and fire from various traps has caused me to miss how very irritating these traps have been for rogues.
I'd like to know if you've heard such frustration from others, and if so, does WotC have any changes in the works to address them?
Thank you for any time or assistance you may render with this Mr. Broadhurst.
-Bander
“Nothing on the face of this earth --and I do mean nothing- is half so dangerous as a children's story that happens to be real, and you and I are wandering blindfolded through a myth devised by a maniac.” -- Master Li Kao (Tang Dynasty)
That said, the complaint has broader implications. It is possible that the writer is partially at fault for this situation. I have heard the trap in this adventure is poorly written. But, I think the primary fault is the DM. No DM worth his salt would have a trap activate simply for looking for it. And, the DM simply ignored the PHB rules about delaying a trap (delaying isn't listed in any trap description because it is a general rule). In fact, the DM seems to have failed colossally. DME is designed for this exact purpose. When the stars align and a character is a near perfect fit for an encounter, it the is the duty of a DM to work with the situation rather than throw roadblocks against it (make the game fun!).
-SYB
And yes, the trap-laden nature of LURU 1-1, and the traps themselves, are ludicrously bad.
The traps do have faults. However, this is one of the first mods and all the authors were new to traps.
In the stated ranged trap encounter, one problem is that the two perception checks might be confusing. At one DC, you see what is basically the control mechanism, though this is not so obvious from the "Perception block". At the higher DC you see where the attacks come from, which actually provides less of a value in terms of disabling/attacking. The higher check is almost one you don't want to make! It is easy for a judge to read the trap and think that you disable at the place where they fire or some other logic.
Then you just have the regular problems with traps. I think 80% of the OPs problem is just traps in 4E. As a rogue, and reading the PH, and looking at that cool picture at the front of the skills section, you want to be Indiana Jones... disabling the trap under duress while the party thinks "We are going to die!". Instead, you realize you give up your striker damage for 4-6 rounds (most of the combat) to turn off a trap that may be less of an impact on the combat than the monsters. Hmmmm... and, failure could have serious negative impacts. Plus the traps might be hard to find... Epic fail on the trap rules.
Oh, and delay is a standard part of traps. The trap description does not need to mention "delay" for this to be a valid option.
Fro LURU1-1, I would DME as follows to make the perception checks work (and be clearer) and to allow more options:
LURU1-1 DME Trap Change Suggestions:
- ✦ DC 20: The character notices the carved archers and knows the arrows are coming from them, but cannot discern from where the trap is controlled. The character may attack/delay one of the carved archers as noted in countermeasures. ✦ DC 25: The character notices the statue glow briefly each time the archers fire. The character knows this is the control mechanism.
- ✦ A character can engage in a skill challenge to deactivate the statue control mechanism for this trap. DC 19 Thievery. Complexity 1 (4 successes before 2 failures). First success: Each statue attacks at a -1 penalty. Second success: each statue fires at a -2 penalty. Third success: one statue is disabled. Fourth success: the trap is disable. Failure causes the statue to explode (close blast 3, 2d6+2 damage to all creatures in blast) and the trap remains active until all intruders leave the room.
- ✦ A character can engage in a skill challenge to delay (not deactivate) an individual archer. DC 19 Thievery (the bonus to delaying traps applies). The archer will need to be delayed every round until it is destroyed or the statue is either destroyed or deactivated.
As a GM I would not allow the Raptor to try to disarm or delay the trap. Not all actions are capable of being performed by your animals. Disarming traps is a rather complex skill and the Raptor just isnt equipped with the physical qualities to manipulate the devices correctly.
The perception checks would have netted the hidden archer/archers and the control panel and nothing more (assuming line of sight etc). The Raptor flying to the control panel would have activated the trap and both would have shot at the Raptor assuming no one else had advanced.
Not sure how many Raptors you plan on having and raising but using one like this is a good way to lose 50 gold an adventure or more.
Not all traps can be delayed. If they can it is usually in their description.
Can you please provide the rules text to suggest that? All I can see is that the Thievery skill says that delaying a trap makes the trapped area safe for a turn and the DMG that implies that most traps can be disabled or delayed with Thievery (implying that it's just a question of whether you can use Thievery to use either option) and that delaying a trap 'When a character delays a trap, the trap stops functioning for a period of time (until the end of the character’s next turn, with a 50% chance each round that it reactivates after that).'
Can you please provide the rules text to suggest that? All I can see is that the Thievery skill says that delaying a trap makes the trapped area safe for a turn and the DMG that implies that most traps can be disabled or delayed with Thievery (implying that it's just a question of whether you can use Thievery to use either option) and that delaying a trap 'When a character delays a trap, the trap stops functioning for a period of time (until the end of the character’s next turn, with a 50% chance each round that it reactivates after that).'
Sorry we were reading the same paragraph. I just took MOST and A PERIOD OF TIME as being rather nebulous. So in the OP's example the trap could be delayed for that round. However I would still not allow the Raptor to be the one to do so.
I'm not touching whether raptors can Thievery or not - but I do hope you'd at least tell him in advance, before it went out to do it
-SYB
Considering he spent a feat to teach that skill to his raptor, and the feat puts no limitations on what skills the companion can have, I think it is a very poor ruling to say the raptor can't use thievery for its intended use.
-SYB
I can only suspend reality so far my friend. A monkey perhaps. A bird nah
Of course, I would have similar difficulties of suspension of disbelief with more mechanical orientated traps, and in a home campaign I would just tell the player before taking the feat. In LFR though I would allow the trick to work. It does by the RAW, the player put a feat in it (and there are more effective feats to pick) with the expectation that it works. Why dissapoint him?
It is not as if you are disabling a mechanical thing in this case. It is a magic trap. Why would a raptor be worse at disrupting a magical field as a thief?
Of course, I would have similar difficulties of suspension of disbelief with more mechanical orientated traps, and in a home campaign I would just tell the player before taking the feat. In LFR though I would allow the trick to work. It does by the RAW, the player put a feat in it (and there are more effective feats to pick) with the expectation that it works. Why dissapoint him?
It is not a magical field
✦ A character can engage in a skill challenge to deactivate the statue control mechanism for this trap.
I can only suspend reality so far my friend. A monkey perhaps. A bird nah
You can suspend your disbelief for people shooting fire from their hands, but you can't see a macaw disarming a trap?
It doesn't take much suspension. Beasts from beast master rangers are pretty clearly something special. Possibly even semi-magical. They have the potential to learn every skill in the game, including knowledge skills like Arcana. They are nearly as intelligent as about half the fighters I have seen in LFR and they have the potential to have double digit intelligence. It seems like a very small stretch to believe that an intelligent animal with a mystical bond to a ranger could disarm a trap.
And, all that aside, you are spitting in the face of RAW and basically stripping the PC of a feat. Not cool.
-SYB
You can suspend your disbelief for people shooting fire from their hands, but you can't see a macaw disarming a trap?
It doesn't take much suspension. Beasts from beast master rangers are pretty clearly something special. Possibly even semi-magical. They have the potential to learn every skill in the game, including knowledge skills like Arcana. They are nearly as intelligent as about half the fighters I have seen in LFR and they have the potential to have double digit intelligence. It seems like a very small stretch to believe that an intelligent animal with a mystical bond to a ranger could disarm a trap.
And, all that aside, you are spitting in the face of RAW and basically stripping the PC of a feat. Not cool.
-SYB
Actually by RAW the rules clearly state that the GM can decide whether the task can be completed or not. So pushing the rules, being abusive of them and expecting the GM to just go along with it just because its fantasy. Not cool.
There's more than one way to play D&D - and we're all going to have different opinions on what's the most fun.
Sometimes it's best to simply agree to disagree.
As always, there's going to be occasional cases where we disagree on what is or isn't believeable, or what is or isn't RAW. While that's tough to accept in a shared campaign - remember that part of what we're sharing is our different opinions.
This diversity is what we should be enjoying - not trying to browbeat out of each other.
And, all that aside, you are spitting in the face of RAW and basically stripping the PC of a feat. Not cool.
I just typed up a long post and then deleted it, because this argument really isn't worth pursuing.
"[T]he DM is the final judge on whether a beast is capable of completing an action." (Martial Power, p. 42).
If you, as a DM, think that an action looking cool is paramount, you're free to allow a parrot to pick locks. If you, as a DM, think that internal consistency and logic is important, you're free to disallow such behavior. Far from spitting in the face of the RAW, that explicitly is the RAW.
If a player chooses to use an ability in a way that most reasonable people would deem, at the least, to be potentially questionable, and the ability explicitly states that the DM gets to make a subjective judgment on the ability, then you better either (a) get used to table variation, (b) play solely with like-minded judges, or (c) pick another ability.
-- Brian Gibbons.
It is not a magical field
Any trap that can distinguish friend from foe seems magical to me.
-James
In the end, the player should not let the fun of a session be ruined by one relatively minor ruling like this. Since the adventure is mentioned several times as a fun good starting adventure on other threads, I suspect most DMs can run the traps perfectly fine to keep it fun for the players. DME is there for a reason.