Hi, esteemed LFR veterans.
I am running my first LFR session at the Weekend at the Realms event in Dundee, Scotland.
Obviously I'm going over the scenario to make sure I don't screw up and that everyone will have a good time. Quick question -
The second encounter map for "The Battle After the Battle". Where does the ice slide start? The text says the northern ice squares - makes sense. However, it also says that the slide is marked "S" on the map. The map has "S" being up the stairs where I believe it should say "T" for trap.
Any official correction? Right now I'm planning to go by the text, but I'm a tiny bit anxious I'm not running the scenario as written and the RPGA police will come round and give me a talking to.
In my draft, I meant the slide to begin in the northwest corner of the map. In the final version of the map, it was placed where the triggered trap was located. Run it either way: whatever works best in the flow of the game.
As for the RPGA police, this is probably the most important thing you are going to hear from me. Run the adventure so that the PCs have fun. If something about the adventure is not working, and the players are not having fun, I beg you, as the designer of the adventure, to change it so that they do have fun. I am not sitting at the table, but you are. You can gauge what it is that the players want.
Thanks for running the games!
In my draft, I meant the slide to begin in the northwest corner of the map. In the final version of the map, it was placed where the triggered trap was located. Run it either way: whatever works best in the flow of the game.
As for the RPGA police, this is probably the most important thing you are going to hear from me. Run the adventure so that the PCs have fun. If something about the adventure is not working, and the players are not having fun, I beg you, as the designer of the adventure, to change it so that they do have fun. I am not sitting at the table, but you are. You can gauge what it is that the players want.
Thanks for running the games!
Wait so you might change this thing on us at YOUR tables in the cold wintry north 2 weeks from now? OH the Humanity! I mean:
1) I have to go to Buffalo, I really should go buy a Pens Jersey before I head up there.. you know to keep warm.
b) There is no b
III) See B
4) Buffalo, really, I thought only Yeti lived there.
I once drove as far south as Buffalo, but it was so uncomfortably warm that I had to turn back. Wearing a sweater there would be suicide.
1) I have to go to Buffalo, I really should go buy a Pens Jersey before I head up there.. you know to keep warm.
Most people would consider me running the game for them a punishment. But it takes all kinds! If anyone is interested in playing the Weekend in the Realms event with me, check out warhornllc.com/WeekendInNarfell2009/.
As far as wearing the Pens jersey, you are probably safe. The Sabres fans are relatively level-headed. I cannot ensure your safety, however, if you choose to wear a Steelers jersey. The Bills fans around here are a little less forgiving.
I once drove as far south as Buffalo, but it was so uncomfortably warm that I had to turn back. Wearing a sweater there would be suicide.
Tell me about it! We are flirting with 70 degrees today. It's madness.
Madness?
THIS IS BUFFALO!
(Sorry for the joke, I'm really sad we dont have Week-end at the Realms event here in Italy...)
I once drove as far south as Buffalo, but it was so uncomfortably warm that I had to turn back. Wearing a sweater there would be suicide.
Tell me about it! We are flirting with 70 degrees today. It's madness.
I have heard rumors of tasty wings up that way, maybe I should investigate.
(Sorry for the joke, I'm really sad we dont have Week-end at the Realms event here in Italy...)
You do realize that as long you have a public place assigned to your WPN account, you could organize one yourself? Sure, you will not get the package, but you can download the pdf of the adventure and run it.
(Sorry for the joke, I'm really sad we dont have Week-end at the Realms event here in Italy...)
You do realize that as long you have a public place assigned to your WPN account, you could organize one yourself? Sure, you will not get the package, but you can download the pdf of the adventure and run it.
Yes, but it's quite diffucult to acheive without a local support... however I've registered on DCI/RPGA site, I've got herald membership and I'm trying to find a public place to run the events.
I hope to get something... Thanks!
On topic, our group is preparing for running this event in Portland, OR. We ran two slot 0s. We wanted to share a few things for judges that will be running the event.
(This post contains spoilers and is meant for event judges)
*
First, this was a fun adventure. I think this is the perfect type of adventure to have for WiR and new book gamedays. Low level, simple, but with a good story and reasons for the adventurers and players to care. Having it link to the novel is even better. Players liked the mission concept and liked the Creel as a tribe. The scaling options give the DM a lot of latitude in shaping the challenge level to the table.
There are a few things that are suggestions for clarity and story continuity so that the players "get it" in a fun way.
First, the Intro is really meant to be summarized and almost read to the players. A nice way to start is to ask the players for descriptions, then shape this to them, using their PC names for who found the work, what they learned about the lands they would travel to, and how they navigated the cold environs.
As the intro proceeds, everything works better if you stress the change in leadership to the tribe, allow the streetwise to pick up on the demonic ties, and make sure the PCs understand the nature of the appeal from Priatelle. A big key for me was letting the PCs know that most Creel would not trust outsiders at all. In the taboo area, they will likely be attacked on site as interlopers and turned into demon-bound servants. Thus, they must find Loggoth quickly and show him the headdress. This helps explain why the PCs will be attacked by her tribe in the next encounter. It is the way of the land, and she's hiring you to deal with it.
In the first combat, it isn't clear if the demons must spend a move action to rise up. We tried both ways, and I like it better with them rising up for free. This lets them spread out and get into within distance of their allies, but perhaps still attack (or ready for when foes close). Depending on how new players are and how high the PCs are, this combat can be challenging or fairly easy. With higher level PCs, you may tactically want to get the leader out there to use his AoE, then retreat back to draw foes towards the statue and it's AoE. The other foes can help with this, pulling back as needed. Or, you can just use the ally-affecting power but otherwise reserve the AoE for when he is the last standing. However, it is nice to get the trap into play. To do this, you can encourage the minor actions and as part of them include the general information that it seems this warding mechanism can be defeated, even during combat. Outside of the DM rolling really well, there is little to worry about with new players. You can have the demons be in bad positions if the PCs need help, or point out that they can be left for the end with a knowledge check (free action).
Story-wise, everything works better if they can speak to the foes at the end. This can be suggested by asking PCs that drop a foe if they are knocking them unconscious or killing them. Repeat as necessary so the players get more of the story. At the end of encounter 1, the bit about why these guys are here and what is going on inside will greatly help with enjoyment of the story. Key to this is understanding that this is a weird taboo area, that the Creel are bloodthirsty and hate foreigners, and that there is a battle raging inside between the Creel and some other creatures native to this weird place beyond.
As they enter Encounter 2, I focus on the bodies of Creel that clearly indicate they were fighting something. There are some fey as well, but it is important not to confuse players as to who the enemy is for the PCs. Mystery is good, but not confusion. With the first slot 0, where I was the player, it came across as "hey, something took over the Creel in encounter 1! Now, let's chase down whatever is tainting Creel. Oh, it must be fey. Oh, I bet the fey are working with that escaped woman! Yay, let's kill all fey!" Instead, you want to go for "These Creel are weird people, made even more violent by their leadership. I wish I could change that, but it seems to be the way things are for now. Hmmm... they had reason not to come here, but must do so due to their leader... and whoever lives in this cave... hey, is this the Feywild?.... whoever lives here might be defending themselves. Maybe in cahoots with that woman, but let's find out more!"
In Encounter 2, the rabble are best used as auto-surprising. I let PCs position themselves, and as soon as line of sight is established, the closest PCs coming around the corner are charged. We then roll init, with the rabble auto-getting the fastest init and having already gone. You could also have them surprise-charge, and then roll init for them separately. Having the other Creel hang back works well. At higher tiers, you can add in one more Creel at any time by having them hide around the corner to the west by the ice, allowing auto-scaling if the party is having too easy a time. For low tables, the danger is the demon getting a lot of people with its attacks, plus lucky rolls providing a damage spike to one PC. You can use various tactics to spread out damage as needed. You can always grant insight to a PC to let them know they could challenge a proud Creel away from someone that is about to drop, for example, helping a table with new players out if things are headed south.
There was some confusion about the map (now clarified in Shawn's post) as well as which squares the Creel avoid. I think it is the blue triangle, but one DM thought it was the area by the steps. Not a biggie. The slide doesn't come into play, but the blue triangle can limit where Creel can move, forcing them west if they need space.
We were also unsure whether this is the Feywild. It seems it should be, and I think that works well story-wise and as a cool thing for players.
Story-wise, this encounter played best when we had prisoners to interrogate, allowing them to tell the story. Otherwise, it is all on Logoff's shoulders to explain what happened. The big key for us was painting a black and white picture of "I am hunting a female HUMAN. I cannot return until I know here fate. If she is below, you must kill her." This raises the possibility that she is not there.
Then, when the PCs descend, they should clearly see the struggle that this ELVEN woman is making. It is again fun to tip the PCs onto the skill challenge. This can be done with any fey-origin PC, letting them know for free that there is something familiar about her... they might know her from old elven tales. Anyone arcane or religious might realize that this is an epic battle that they likely could understand if they took the time to do so. This sets up the skill challenge and allows for a more dynamic battle.
Combat-wise, the dragon is the big threat. The tactics sort of downplay things, emphasizing the melee aspects, but the breath and follow-up are really tough. Depending on how new/experienced the players/PCs are, take it easy or go in for blood. You can bloody most level 2 PCs by the second round and drop level 1s. The former can be good, the later a recipe for non-fun. The elves can be tough, though they fell early in our slot 0s. The skill challenge can also defuse them rather quickly. i suggest being ready to be flexible around playing this encounter hard or soft, and the dragon is really your tool for that. If you really are sure the PCs are hard core, you can add another fey or delay the shutdown skill challenge effects. But, you might instead do something like -1 to attacks as the elves are uncertain of who they are fighting.
If the PCs miss the boat, you can have the valiant fey say things that sound honorable and non-evil. "In the name of Sehanine, you shall not reach my charge!" works just fine. And, there is always saying "Well, around now you realize that the woman Logoff described is not here. You see no other exits, only these fey." And, if you have to "It is unclear with whom these elves are allied." Hopefully, you don't need these hints. However, in our first slot 0, I was playing a PC that for RP reasons, doesn't take prisoners. None of the new players felt like doing so. So, we missed a lot of story and the final encounter had plenty of confusion with most of the players just auto-thinking that the Icy Queen was the woman the Creel were pursuing.
Rules-wise, I wasn't clear whether Icewalk would let the dragon be immune to the icy surface effects. We played that it wasn't immune. It failed a roll in one of the slot 0s, much to its detriment. I am tempted to roll behind the screen and adjudicate in the name of fun.
Sorry for being long-winded, but hopefully this helps some DMs. I would be interested in additional comments/experiences as we will be running several tables over the weekend.
After our slot 0 our observation was that it needs to be much clearer that the Creel are bad guys, and that it is a) ok to kill them in combat and b) important to help the woman.
Just reading the basic module block text to players really isn't going to convey this clearly.
After our slot 0 our observation was that it needs to be much clearer that the Creel are bad guys
This may be oversimplified. While Narfell has an evil past and evil seems to be taking over the tribe, forcing it back to demon days, any tribe member is not necessarily evil. But, on this mission, where they are on orders from their evil leader and afraid of this taboo place, they will attack anyone showing up.
If they really are supposed to be evil through and through it would make little sense to take the job in the first place.
After our slot 0 our observation was that it needs to be much clearer that the Creel are bad guys, and that it is a) ok to kill them in combat and b) important to help the woman.
ah, I will have to reread the adventure as I do not have that impression (that the Creel are bad guys and the PCs should help the woman). (More importantly, I will buy the book on Tuesday and read it, to really understand (hopefully) the backstory.) What basis led you to that conclusion?
Keith
First of all, thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread, and thanks to everyone who is taking the time to run the adventure for Weekend in the Realms. Without the DMs, LFR and any game of D&D would be a lot less fun. :-)
From reading small sections of the novel and other sources, I worked under these assumptions:
--"Nar" refers to all of the people of Narfell collectively, encompassing several tribes, of which the Creel are one.
--The Creel were always seen as one of the more violent tribes of Nar, but they have become downright savages under their new leadership. They have attacked Highwatch, and now the new leader is forcing his own people to enter taboo territories, pretty much against their will. Most of the tribe follows blindly, but a few (like Loggoth and Priatelle) see that something is not quite right and are quietly rebelling. Those reading the novel will understand what has happened to cause this.
--Priatelle has married into the Creel tribe (from the time before the new leader took over). Since she is Cormyrian by birth and the daughter of a noble, the PCs should know to trust her a little bit, at least. And she is also a student of magic (that is why she sought out the Nar in the first place), so she knows about what she speaks. She can be used as a narrative device to let the PCs know what is happening among the Creel. She can differentiate for the PCs between those of the Creel who would attack on sight (like the demonbinders blindly obedient to Argalath) and those who are not so sure that the current leadership of the tribe has their best interest at heart. The former group cannot be reasoned with, while the latter can.
--In the playtests and slot-0s I have run, I don't make the demons in the first combat take a move action to stand. If I was running a game with a bunch of brand new players I might, but the first combat should be easy enough anyway. Spreading the demons out early makes them more effective, and I think it makes the combat more enjoyable.
--Part of the fun of the first encounter can be the statue. During playtests and slot-0s, I played around with the powers of the statue. As it came out, the PCs might not even need to encounter the statue until all but the demonbinder is left. If the PCs are having an easy time of it and not even engaging the statue at all, give it more powers. Let it heal the baazuled or affect the PCs in other ways. Make them move up, and let them know earlier that dealing with the statue will make the enemies weaker. That adds a little to the movement and variation of the combat.
--The only thing I want to add about the second combat is the area attack of the demon. In the MM2, that area attack is an at-will power. That had the potential to really wreck a party of level 1 players, so I changed it to an encounter power. However, the creature really does not have a reliable at-will ranged attack in that case, so instead I just added the stipulation that the creature could not target its allies due to the terms of its binding. Then I forgot to change the stat block back to make the area attack at-will again. So if you are playing with a group of veteran players who want a challenge, change that power back to at-will.
--The final encounter was designed as it was to give DMs maximum flexibility. If the party really is begging for a challenging fight, just remove the skill challenge or dole out information on what is happening more slowly. If the players are newer to the game or are having problems, let them understand what is happening with DC5 Arcana or Religion checks as free actions, so they can take the skill challenge before the enemies can do too much damage.
--The PCs might be confused that Kunin Gatar (The Icy Queen) is the young human female for whom the Creel hunt. I tried to let the information about this hunted human come out piece by piece. Priatelle knows that hunt for someone who escaped, the demonbinder the PCs defeat can tell them that it is a young female human, and Loggoth can give a more definite description (teen-aged, etc.) I did not have a better description of her, so I could not be more specific in the adventure. However, the Icy Queen who the PCs can rescue is definitely not human, definitely not young, and definitely not of this world. To the best of my knowledge, she is a powerful fey creature from the Feywild who rules an icy realm.
--The caves under the Giantspire Mountains where the PCs travel is neither of this world or of the Feywild, to the best of my knowledge, but it is a place of crossing between the two--hence the name of the adventure. When I describe it to my players, I try to get the point across that they are in a place not quite natural. The Icy Queen and her servants, however, treat these caves as their own domain, and they assume the PCs are part of the invading force unless they are convinced otherwise.
--It is important for the PCs to understand that if Loggoth returns to his people without the girl he seeks OR INFORMATION OF HER WHEREABOUTS, Argalath is going to kill him and his family. The Icy Queen can provide this information. However, I was not privy to much information about this when writing the adventure, so this is where reading the novel ahead of time can help a DM add some detail. I am not sure exactly what the Icy Queen knows.
That's all I've got right now. Good luck with the games!
Highwatch btw was a borderfortress ruled by followers of Torm before it was overrun by the Creel due to treachery. The Creel leader *is* one hell of a dangerous and evil man. I would indeed count upon players initially refusing to help the woman if they read the novel unless you impress the fact that the leader is not the same as the majority of the Creel!
I am not sure on what the Icy Queen actually knows about the fate of the young woman (she is 17 years old), or even whether she is willing to tell the PCs. Without giving much spoilers, it is save to assume the Icy Queen by now absolutely detests the young woman at least towards outsiders*. She also knows more of her fate (who has a claim on her anyway), but the Queen refused to tell the woman so I wonder whether she would tell random strangers. She was truly afraid of said creature. I sincerely doubt she would want to risk its ire and betray the young woman, although, she might not care. Note though that by the end of the novel, the Creel definitely do NOT know it yet, and them knowing it might actually have a big impact. So I personally are definitely going to tell the PCs. If you want to, you could tell the players, or better, tell them to read the novel 
* Several trickster eladrin are involved, and the novel is written from POV of the women. Since these are depicted as the sidhe of Celtic mythology the reader has no idea how much is an act and how much is true. I really love it ;)
After our slot 0 our observation was that it needs to be much clearer that the Creel are bad guys, and that it is a) ok to kill them in combat and b) important to help the woman.
ah, I will have to reread the adventure as I do not have that impression (that the Creel are bad guys and the PCs should help the woman). (More importantly, I will buy the book on Tuesday and read it, to really understand (hopefully) the backstory.) What basis led you to that conclusion?Keith
I realise "woman" isn't clear, the woman I meant was the Icy Queen. So without that conlcusion when you get to the last fight, why should the PCs simply not just coup de grace the Icy Queen (oh wait the module makes that arbitarily impossible)? Why will they even bother helping her? Just subdue one of her defenders and question them for the information you need.
Overall the module really bugs me, the set up is "resuce mission" and you need to be motivated to fight all the Creel (no opportunity to use Diplomacy, Intimidate, or Bluff to manipulate them), until you finally encounter the McGuffin. The McGuffin then needs to motivate you to go to the last encounter, where you need to be motivated to help the Icy Queen.
The McGuffin's means of motivating the PCs is that "bad things will happen to innocent people". So that gets them to the last encounter (most likely), where they are supposed to do what? Fight the monsters and then keep going because the McGuffin's plot hook says so, nope they are supposed to rescue random person X, who has already (with the help of her now dead allies) killed a bunch of the Creel.
So if the Creel are "good guys" saving the Icy Queen is probably a "bad idea", but if the Creel are "bad guys" then saving the Icy Queen is a good idea, and frankly the last fight should have a means of not devolving into a fight.
The implication of much of the set up is that the McGuffin is a "good man in a bad situation", which again leaves the Creel as a group as "bad guys".
Keep in mind "bad guy" need not mean "evil" (even if I suspect there isn't a lot of other way to view demon summoners in DnD terms), just that they are antogonists in the current plot.
Well, I guess I can try to answer. My mandate when writing the adventure was to keep the action simple, but that doesn't mean the plot had to be. What I tried to get across is that the Creel as a whole were always seen as the worst of the Nar, and lately they are even more a bloodthirsty, powerhungry, "attack-on-sight" people. However, that does not mean that every single member of the tribe has to be. Priatelle can help the PCs understand this before the PCs are surprised when they cannot talk to any of the Creel in the adventure (except her husband).
Similarly, the Icy Queen and her followers are not good creatures. From what I have read I would considered them unaligned at best (quite possibly evil), and xenophobic as well. Their land is being attacked by these humans, and other unhappy things have happened to them in general and the Icy Queen in particular, and into this very tense and dangerous situation steps the PCs. The Icy Queen is fighting off possession by a powerful demon, the Icy Queen's 3 companions can do nothing but watch (after fighting off a Creel hunting party moments before), and here come the PCs. I think it natural that the Icy Queen's companions attack first--and then can be made to see the truth of the situation by their actions in the skill challenge.
One challenge in designing this adventure was that I needed to include characters from the novel as NPCs. However, the characters who are most interesting and who I knew enough about to include (Icy Queen and Argalath) are incredibly powerful--much more powerful than the PCs could hope to kill before being totally decimated at levels 1-4. So you will have to excuse the adventure if there are some places where the PCs are "arbitrarily" unable to do certain things.
I hope, as DMs, we are all able to roll with what the PCs try to do, and give them the opportunity to try things. I did have a playtest table where the PCs tried to attack both Argalath (after being begged specifically not to by Priatelle) and then the demon/Icy Queen. When the PC attacked Argalath, he rolled high enough to hit 27 AC. He missed. Argalath then pointed to the PCs merchant employer, who dropped dead. That got the point across for the PCs pretty well. You could do the same thing for the Icy Quuen/demon at the end. I had one PC attack, and after he missed I gave him an Insight check to realize that these are creatures far more powerful than the PCs have ever faced before. The PCs can waste attack after attack and round after round attacking on them, but at some point they should understand they are attacking creatures they cannot really defeat. Set the hps of each in the 1000 range, and make the defenses in the high 30s
I'm sorry the adventure "really bugs you," and if you DM the adventure I hope you are able to have enough skill and patience as a DM to make the game fun for your players without letting your disappointment at the adventure leak out.
Thanks.
I'll tell you what, it's fantastic to get feedback straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak.
I'm interested to hear the human woman comes from the novel. I had made up a bit of a backstory and description, just to give the players a bit of a steer as to who they were hunting for.
Now, it appears that this is jumping on thin ice. Are there any more details about this woman we could get, just to feed to the PCs, or let them find out with Streetwise, or something? In particular a description would be very helpful.
Hopefully she doesn't have a strong frigid, regal, fey sort of appearance, or this is going to get even more complicated:-)
The best I can do is point you here:
www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/p...
The girl the Creel seek is Hweilan.
Thanks for that. I do understand that it is bad form to try and get information from publications without paying for it, but I'm not trying to pirate anything.
It's just that I'd like to be able to give a vague description without destroying the immersion of any player who has read the novel.
So, she is seventeen years old, female, the daughter of the ex-ruler of Highwatch, has a bow in her right hand (that may, or may not be called "Death".
Is she blonde? Brunette? Wearing anything distinctive? Prominent tattoos?
:-)??
Therein lies the problem. I just don't know. I will be reading the novel this week, along with everyone else! :-)
You really should read the novel ;)
The description of Hweilan is lithe, fair, long hair, trained by a Nar tribesman AND raised to be a Damaran noble. Her mother is a half-elf from a barbarian elf tribe, although she renounced her ties with that tribe when she married the son of the lord of Highwatch. Horses and other animal tend to spook around her to the point she cannot ride horses, but on the long distance she can outrun a horse. She carries a bow, but she CANNOT string it (it was her father's).
Pieter,
so how did you score a copy of the novel before everyone else? Connection with a book store?
Keith
Yeah, although, getting a novel a few days early is a one-time thing. Although, that description comes from the first ten pages or so.
So I skimmed the thread avoiding adenture spoilers where I could just wanted to say I just finished reading the novel. I enjoyed it quite a bit and having read the novel am looking fowards to playing this adventure.
If you havent' read the novel yet, I encourage you to it doesn't take long and I think will give some great insight into things perhaps your character won't know but if you game for the story you should appreciate while playing the adventure, given how it's supposed to be "reasonably" closely tied to the novel.? (run on sentance fail!)
Still exciting!
To be honest if someone gives me the novel I'll read it (I enjoyed the author's other book I've read), otherwise I'll pass, I'm just not interested in spending $20 on a novel just to be able to run an LFR module better.
Thanks for the answers Shawn.
Fear not I have the DMing chops to make the adventure fun, without any real problem. "Make the Creel clearly bad guys" solves most of the problems, and your responses fill in a lot of details that make it clear that the Creel are bad guys as a group.
But the module itself lacks a lot of this information in explicit statements (and where they do exist they are scattered through the module or laking detail). For example "consort with infernal forces" doesn't mean much when you can have Infernal pact Gnoll Warlocks coming to the rescue... Just saying "demon binder" isn't enough when there are PCs who are thinking about spells like "Summon Abyssal Maw" (which is the character I was playing.. he wanted to rescue the husband to learn from Priatelle. Gold? Bah! He'd ratehr have knowledge.)
My mandate when writing the adventure was to keep the action simple, but that doesn't mean the plot had to be.
Yes and I fully support complex plots, but complex plots need clear and detailed explanations for DMs. No guessing or extrapolation, or reading over multiple sections and piecing the clues together - clear explanation in one place. The plot is supposed to be a mystery for the players not the DM, this makes it possible for the DM to cope with players who go "off the rails".
So you will have to excuse the adventure if there are some places where the PCs are "arbitrarily" unable to do certain things.
It is arbitary because information to support the statements is not included.
Consider these statements:
"The Icy Queen was severely injured" and "she is not in danger of dying from her wounds"
Then
"The PCs cannot harm or affect the Icy Queen in any way."
So we have a severly injured person that the PCs cannot harm.... The implication is that these guys who have been defeated repeatedly by the PCs are able to hurt the Icy Queen, so why is it not possible for the PC's to do so?
A clearer explanation of the situation rather than a blanket "no harm" statement gives the DM far more to work with... similarly with the demon.
(Note is possible to have first level characters that will take 0 damage from standing beside the battle between the Icy Queen and the Demon.)
Points taken. I hope your players still have fun, and I will try to do better in future efforts.
Well, in regards to the Icy Queen, I simply assumed the leader of the Creel was really powerful and the Queen managed to defeat it. The rest of the Creel were ordinary humans, and they had a lot of problems with the fey (who are mostly not too powerful either). It is basically what also happens at one time in the novel where the ordinary Creel all get killed, but the leaders manage to get deep into the Queen's territory.
[Note: I doubt the novel cost 20,-. It probably cost around 8,-. Mind you, I can understand that that might be too much as well for just one adventure. Personally though I love to read these kind of novels. Make great reads when you are tired and commuting for 1.5 hours by public transport ]
To be honest if someone gives me the novel I'll read it (I enjoyed the author's other book I've read), otherwise I'll pass, I'm just not interested in spending $20 on a novel just to be able to run an LFR module better.
Just so you know it is paperback and in the US costs about $8.
Though I agree a good DM should be able to run this adventure without having to read the book.
Claire
I saw this over on the LFR Group.
In preparing to DM this adventure, I've run across a few narrative holes and difficulties. I imagine other DMs are encountering the same. The issue of "young woman who escaped from Highwatch" (p. 3) and the presentation of the Icy Queen are particularly problematic:
- Why does Argalath waste warriors to pursue a single escaped girl? (p. 3)
The escaped girl is really important to them. I think the novel talks about it, but the mod mentions this. She is not 'normal'.
- It is not at all clear how the issue of the "young women" who escaped from Highwatch (p. 3) is resolved.
- At the rather abrupt end of the adventure, it says that the PCs "gained the information about the girl from the Icy Queen" (p. 14) What information is this? What does Loggoth report to Argalath that "saves his family" (p. 14)?
Loggoth cannot leave until he either defeats the girl or finds she is not there. When you meet him, it is possible the girl is down the ice slide, but he cannot go down. He waits until you bring him news. The news you bring is that she passed through there, but is no longer there. This frees him to bring the information back to Argalath.
-Why Loggoth's family in danger in the first place? Argalath only said that they would suffer if the PCs continued to talk to Prietelle.
It should be clear to the PCs that Argalath is a powerful and brutal leader driving the tribe towards evil deeds, even though some of the tribe is not evil. Argalath has commanded Loggoth to find and kill the girl. If he does not, he will punish his family to set an example.
- Without the girl or information as to her whereabouts, how can Loggoth return to Bildoobaris?
- What is the connection between the Icy Queen and the escaped girl? Is it just a coincidence that the Creel pursued the girl to this cave and happened upon the Icy Queen?
- Is the crossing to the Icy Queen's fey realm in this cave?
Yes. This is a crossing place, not truly in either realm, from what Shawn wrote.
- What motivation do the PCs have for trying to save the Icy Queen?
We spoke about this earlier in the thread, but you want to tip the players off to the difference between the human girl they are looking for and the elven woman that is somehow struggling with something. This should get some alarm bells ringing for most players that things may not be what they seem. Depending on the difficulty desired, you can give them checks to help them figure out that they can engage in a skill challenge and help her.
I think DMs should be given this information. Without it, the story seems awkward, and ending feels abrupt and illogical. I'm not sure how you would get this information out there at this point, but I, and no doubt others, would like some clarification on these issues.
Check out the other posts, Afet. I think this is a really good mod and just needs a strong read-through and then some gentle handling to encourage PCs to speak with those they defeat and learn what is taking place.
Just so you know it is paperback and in the US costs about . $8
Jut so folks know not everyone lives in the US. $20 is pretty typical if not cheap for a paperback here.
I don't live in the States, and books are considered expensive around here and even we don't pay $20 (in the Netherlands I pay around 7 euros in my local FLAG). Ouch, I feel for you.
Note that even in the novel Argolath NEVER explains why he needs the girl. He tells the traitor of Highwatch some kind of story, but that is most likely a lie. She poses a threat to his plans for conquest of the region, most likely due to some kind of prophecy of somebody of her family being the only ones able to stop him, but that is random speculation based on what you eventually learn about why the Hunter needs Hweilan.
A little more background/spoilers from the novel:
Icy Queen is also named Kunin Gatar, some type of fey primal spirit ruling a section of the Feywild. She has met and also read the mind of the girl= Hweilan. The Icy Queen knows the girl is from Highwatch, knows the names of her parents (without asking) (daughter of Ardan of the Damarans and Merah (mixed human-eladrin parents) of the Vil Adanrath (who are eladrin from the Feywild), and she knows that the girl belongs to someone. I doubt the Icy Queen would tell anyone who the girl belongs to, but she might admit someone powerful. the Queen is not a nice person, not Evil, BUT not nice. She has a temper!
Hweilan is 17 years old quarter elf, I don't recall a description. She is the granddaughter of the High Warden and her father died when she was 10. She was taught to read and write by the priests of Torm friend/advisor taught her the native tongue of the Nar. I doubt that members of the Creel know much of any of that.
Argalath is apparently a half-Nar, spellscarred shaman/demonbinder who may be possessed by a demon. He wears a hooded cloak and dislikes strong light. He can via his spellscar, kill (or render unconcious) several men at once and the rumors will have spread to exaggerate his power. He used the former Captain of the Guard at Highwatch to betray the fortress which led to its fall. The book does not really elaborate on how he gained control over the Creel. I doubt the average Creel know much about Argalath other than he is very dangerous and can kill with a glance. EDIT: Argalath should normally be accompanied by serveral Elite Creel Warriors as a body guard. I forgot to mention that.
No one should know why Argalath wants Hweilan. The initial reason stated in the novel was part of a deception. I believe the real reason has to do with the being Argalath is tied to, and the one that Hweilan will become tied to, are mortal (immortal?) enemies, and I suspect the last two books in the trilogy will expand on that.
The Creel are not Evil, but they are savage barbarians who fight at a drop of a hat.
Unaligned humans who use demons fighting unaligned fey spirits.
Keith
To piggyback on this thread, I had a question about the mod rewards. (I didn't see anything about this anywhere else)
The mod is for 1-4, includes scaling for "High Tier", but only lists xp/gold rewards for "Low Tier". If I run the players through with 3rd-4th level characters, am I limited to giving out the listed gold/xp from the module?
Yep. There is no low or high tier, just adjustments to make sure it plays at the right challenge level for fun.
That is what I thought... The players are sure going to be happy.
Make sure to read the part on Magic Items on the last page. This makes it more worth it. (And please don't spoiler it, it should be a pleasant surprise).
Alphastream and Shawn,
I've read, run, and soaked up the Realms since it first came out, and even before, following Ed Greenwood nibblits. I admit, Narfell and Nar Demon Binders is something I never absorbed, because none of the games I ran or played in involved Narfell.
I'd hoped this adventure would change that. The Game Day offerings, and last year's WitR have been excellent. I want to give you sincere feedback and not hurt anyone's feelings or make you feel like you are being attacked... and please, do NOT stop encouraging adventures all over the Realms!
Unlike many, I am a fan of the pre, and post 4e Realms. I run a weekly LFR game at home on Thursdays, and a Friday Realms homebrew 4e. I was really looking forward to this adventure and module...but it feels rushed, incomplete, and tangled.
I watched a newer DM run it, who is not as familiar with the Realms. Using only the maps and descriptions in the module, he told the players "..from Corymr, which is a country southwest of Narfell..." That's like saying California is a state a little to the west of the Atlantic Ocean! Cormyr is waaay away! The Moonsea is closer...lol
I've read this thread, and the intro to the adventure, and I still can't tell the clear distinction between the Creel, the "human woman" who seems really unimportant except as a plot hook, and the Icy Queen [who is like, this whole new breed of elemental 'seasons of the year' fey which are seeping into the Realms, because of the 4e construct called 'the Feywild', without organizing or explaining how they really should fit into the previously established fey/elven/Tel'Quessir races of Faerun--but that's another story, and maybe should be directed to whoever is supposed to be the editor or gatekeeper of whatever is, and is not, "Realms"].
If you wanted to tie a module into a novel, then may have I suggested the adventure Game Day take place two weeks after the street date for the book? Nothing in the marketing blitz for this makes me want to rush out and read the book because of the module, and now, I only want to read the book to figure all the tangle out, before my special-permission sanctioned event next weekend--maybe it's a blessing that our game shop could not offer WitR 2 until Nov 14th, because now I might be able to read the book and prep the adventure with your notes on this post.
There are cool looking sabretooths on the art of the poster. It would have been super-cool to include these as monsters, and pogs for the adventure.
I think, finally, you put way too much responsibility on the DM for this adventure. What I mean is, unless you're already extremely, deeply familiar with Nar, Narfell, the Creel, and the whole demon-binder schtick from the past, when you pick up this module, it doesn't introduce all of these ideas to you richly and give you the ability to clearly show who is who to your players.
In our playtest with the new DM last night, to get him ready for his other gamestore event tomorrow, we wanted to charge in and save Priatelle from her jerk chieftan. We also had very, very little motivation to help one human tribe of madmen hunt down, possibly kill this mystery "girl" who escaped Highwatch. Think of it this way, because this is how the module reads to us:
We're a group of barbarians, who attacked a settled town/fortress for no good reason. However, ignore that we are the aggressors. We want some help finding one poor human girl who escaped our massacre...
Now, Priatelle comes really asking the PCs "Please, my husband was sent by our lunatic, power-crazed, tradition-trampling leader into a taboo zone... can you help find my husband who is in danger? Can you find him, since I cannot, and make sure he is safe?"
See, the real "hook", as I see it, is that a helpless woman is asking the PCs to find her husband, and the background points are:
- Crazy chieftan sent him into a taboo area
- Husband was obeying orders, and may not come with you easily.
What are those orders? - the PCs may ask.... DM given story info to *motivate* PCs, not make them crazy with moral shades of gray
Really, our party was more interested in possibly going to kick the chief's butt and save a *woman and her children* -- after all, this is D&D! we're supposed to be heroes! -- instead of leaving her captive and instead, going to find her stupid, clueless husband who deserves to be in danger for following orders against tribal tradition, into a known danger zone...
Forgive my sarcasm. Just wanted to give you my two cents. It is my *opinion* as an experienced DM and RPGA event organizer, that you will receive a lot of negative feedback about this event, and only a little positive...and you probably deserve more positive than you will be getting. This is, after all, meant to be an event which:
- Promotes the awesome and excellent D&D 4e system
- Promotes that wondrous place called the Forgotten Realms, and makes all the DMs and players want more, more, more Realms!!!
So do you think, as printed, as prepared, as sent out -- that it does this?
I'm your fan, and I thank you for all your continued hard work for the sake of our fun. Please don't take this post in the wrong way. I'm a friend, trying to help you improve, from my albeit limited PoV.
I think it is fairly important that DMs stick to the plot hook is: you were asked to help a woman (originally from Cormyr) who wants her husband back, preferably alive. That seems very reasonable to me.
There was a mini-series and TV series in the 1970s about a family in US during the Civil War, and early on, the one son was sent by his mom to rescue his father who was "recruited" by the North. The young man (played by Bruce Boxleitner) had to get past both armies, bandits, etc. and found his father dying on the battlefield. In some ways, this story reminds me of that challenge.
Keith
I hear what you are saying, GreekGeorge, and I appreciate that you mean this all in a positive tone.
I think the feedback is useful, though I disagree to some extent with most of what you wrote. (I suspect we would have fun playing together, just see this adventure differently). Please note that I didn't have anything to do with it, though I would be proud if I did. (I'mjust opinionated :-)
It is very hard to try to put as much story as there is into an adventure without the complexity and room for confusion being there. I can see what you mean by this adventure likely being best in the hands of expert DMs, but that is true of almost any good adventure because good adventures often have complexity and require thought as to pacing and how best to provide information.
In this case, I think this adventure needs to be read once or twice carefully, and the DM should make a few notes about how to best get the information and story across to the players. I can see some room for improvement in editing, but not by much and I don't consider the editing to be lacking in any great way, to be honest. In my opinion, what the adventure could use is a little clarity on PC motivation and the difference between the two female characters, such that PCs have a grounded reason behind their choices.
Even if I step away from who wrote this adventure and what his busy schedule must be like... or what it was like for the WotC and RPGA teams to come up with the idea and approve it... look, just writing that gave me the shivers! I don't really want to think of such things. I am writing two mods a year so far and my plate feels full. I can't comprehend putting out mods of the quality of this WiR and doing everything else the global admins do. And, again, that aside, I still see this as a really good mod.
You can always gloss over plot. But if you want plot, there is a lot here and I really feel that a careful read and some planning will allow most DMs to provide a really good experience.
I'll be running this in a few hours plus more tomorrow, so I'll report back on those experiences. I think the campaign could use the feedback on whether the complexity works or is best left for higher-level LFR.
In this case, I think this adventure needs to be read once or twice carefully, and the DM should make a few notes about how to best get the information and story across to the players.
I agree totally. That said I don't think it needs to be that way, especially for a module that WotC is producing a physical copy of for distribution.
Hmm this seems an appropriate point to mention the silliness of wasting pages on advertising - the people reading the mod already know about 4E and already know about LFR - knowledge of both of those were required to get this thing going in the first place. Those pages could have been used to provide better information about/for the module.
Got a chance to play it today and I felt the hook was quite clear to me, the former cormyrian woman wanted us to save her husband who was sent into a taboo zone by the not so nice leader of his tribe. Maybe not the greatest reason to help someone but we are supposed to be heroes, that's the kind of stuff we just do for people, especially ones who are willing to pay =P
Hmm this seems an appropriate point to mention the silliness of wasting pages on advertising - the people reading the mod already know about 4E and already know about LFR - knowledge of both of those were required to get this thing going in the first place. Those pages could have been used to provide better information about/for the module.
Agreed. If they had been handouts, fine, but they were in the middle of the mod. Another minor packaging issue was not having the story awards printed as part of the adventure. Only one page is provided with the instructions...
Great thread. Very helpful. I am running two sessions of IQC tomorrow. I will let you know how it goes and what notes I've added to the mod to help make it more immersive and fun.
One note: The Runespiral Demon has TWO at-will ranged attacks that were turned into Encounter powers. I am going to make Focused Strike back into an at-will, if the party is not challenged enough.
Cailte's in Australia, so despite our dollar being almost one-for-one with the US, the WotC paperback novels tend to retail at $18.95 or $19.95 (ie:$20) 
That's an unfortunate byproduct of being both a long way from the source and a smaller market...but the lifestyle makes up for it! 
Hmm this seems an appropriate point to mention the silliness of wasting pages on advertising - the people reading the mod already know about 4E and already know about LFR - knowledge of both of those were required to get this thing going in the first place. Those pages could have been used to provide better information about/for the module.
Agreed. If they had been handouts, fine, but they were in the middle of the mod. Another minor packaging issue was not having the story awards printed as part of the adventure. Only one page is provided with the instructions...
Also, this is the first mod I've run where it doesn't tell you what the magical item rewards that aren't from the PH do. Usually they're statted out in the back of the mod. So I copied all of the AV2 items from the Compendium for my players so they'll know what they are.
I just got back from running a slot of this, and on the whole it worked out pretty well.
I used the merchant to get across the hair-trigger attitudes of the Creel. The intro bit is a touch abbreviated, but it's easy to flesh it out into a strong hook. My players expected to have to do some skill challenge work to get to the mountain, so I had them make one Nature roll as a token -- this let them feel like they were getting use out of their skills. That worked.
I had the first encounter demons rise up as a free action. That was fine. I was a bit worried about the daze effect, but it wasn't too egregious even for the newer players. I had to hint towards the skill challenge; once I got them thinking about it, it was easy to run and they liked it. So an excellent encounter on the whole.
The second encounter was also smooth. I agree that the Runespiral Demon needs one of his ranged encounter powers reverted to an at-will, but that's an easy tweak. He's a good monster.
The third encounter is very nice. I probably could have dropped PCs if I'd been a bit more aggressive, or if either of the lieutenants had hit with either of their encounter powers. Alas! But by the time they figured out the Ice Queen's skill challenge, there were three bloodied PCs and no healing left... I think I'll take that as good balance. I wasn't sure if I was going to have to hint at the skill challenge; one of the PCs figured out that he might be able to help her a few rounds in, though.
I did wind up giving sort of a road map to the skill challenge, since not all the useful skills were obvious. Our wizard wanted to use Thunderwave to drive the demon off the Ice Queen, and I allowed it in place of an Athletics roll. The players liked this one too, so that's two for two on in-combat skill challenges. I think (say) the Diplomacy check on the second one is a bit of a stretch... but otherwise no complaints, and that's a pretty tiny complaint.
The transition from seeking the mystery woman to not caring any more was somewhat difficult. The players sort of bought into it, and sort of just accepted it because hey, it's what Loggoth wanted. Still, there's a big jump from "I'm wounded but I have to follow her even though I can't fight" to "Oh, well, so it goes."
In retrospect, the right way for me to finesse this would have been to have Loggoth react strongly to the Ice Queen. "It is she, spoken of in legend! Queen of Winter!" If he'd made it clear that she was powerful enough that even Argalath is scared of her (which is implied by all the talk of taboo), the end result would have made a tad more sense. It also would have encouraged the PCs to try to save her.
What else? The ice slide was a huge hit. My group used a rope to make the slide easier, but several of the PCs refused to use it because ice slides are more fun.
I've mentioned the skill challenges a couple of times, but you know, I wanna mention how nice they were again. They made me want to incorporate that sort of thing into my own adventures more often, which is exactly what I love in any published module.
Needs more cowbell.
I usually let Arcana or Religion, DC 10, serve as a knowledge check in cases like this to recognize that Arcana , or Religion, as the case may be, may be used actively to attempt to control or affect something. Works pretty well.
In response to the first diplomacy check (success) in the last encounter, I have one of the guys say somethng like: Your pretty words sound convincing, but you will need to show me deeds, not just words, to convince me you are sincere. (that should be a strong hint to do, not just talk)
When done, I have the Icy Queen say, when asked, yes, the girl escape. (from my knowledge from reading the novel), she has left this realm for another realm in the Feywild, beyond my control. I will not permit passage from realm to that one, you cannot follow her from here. Depart my realm, my gratitude is at an end.
That should convince most PCs as well as Loggath.
The two tables I ran today went well.
Keith
where can i find info on the treasure items from the end of the mod? i have looked and looked but apparently not in the right places...please help! thanks!
Not sure what you are asking. Where do you find the magic item descriptions? Three of the items are from Adventurer's Vault 2. Unfortunately, a page listing the "new" items was not included in the adventure as normal for LFR adventures.
My wife manually created a handout for the item descriptions so we could share that with the players at our tables.
Keith
ahhh...yes. av2. the one book i don't have on hand. that is why i could not find their descriptions. much thanks!
I actually liked not having the item descriptions. Since it is generally run at gaming stores and they are selling product, the store enjoyed our referring players to AV2.
We ran 6 tables in Portland, OR. The event was well received. We had one table with a mom and her 9-year-old son. The son was full of energy and made us all look back fondly as he described how so far he had just made up the game while using various toys and playing with his best friend. He had a fantastic time with the barbarian, high-fiving us and just being super into every moment.
The next day I had a 13-year old daughter and her dad, plus another older son and dad. They had a really good time as well, the daughter eventually saying that she once thought D&D was lame but has started to realize that it is really fun. She had a couple of crits and made the final skill challenge roll, thus stopping the dragon. She said it was a blast.
We picked up some new to LFR players, at least one guy who had quit D&D because he hated 3.0 and decided he want to try 4.0 He was excited and hooked, I think.
No fault of Shawn's (the author) but it did help if the DM had read the novel, I think. I enjoyed portraying the Icy Queen.
Keith
Thanks to everyone who took the time to DM or play the adventure, and thanks for the feedback. I acknowledge there were mistakes I made, or things I could have done better. There were some issues I could do nothing about for various reasons, and for those I hope those in charge of those aspects of the adventure will take the suggestions to heart in future endeavours.
Having recently worked on another (non-LFR) project for DDI that ties into a novel, in the future I would insist on getting the opportunity to read the entire novel before writing an adventure based on it. It is tricky to try to give descriptions of NPCs without knowing the descriptions of the NPCs, or use plot points when you don't know the entire plot. 
Thanks so much to all the people who took the time to read the novel before running the adventure and filling in some of the details correctly. Y'all are the kind of DMs that give D&D the reputation for being the fun game it is!
I just returned from a small convention we ran at the University of Buffalo to support the Weekend in the Realms, and we had over 50 participants and lots of great DMs throughout the weekend. We ran the gamut from people brand new to D&D/4e to LFR veterans. Most seemed to have a great time, which means it was a success. I hope everyone else who DMed and played had fun, because that's why we do it.
Thanks again to all the people who made the Weekend in the Realms go!
I had been running around all week trying to orchestrate a table for Weekend in the Realms. WitR '08 was my first LFR game ever, and I was stoked to do it again.
The experience lacked that epic feeling that comes from a 12-hour major-quest marathon, but that's probably for the best. The only thing I would suggest is to make the story awards more interesting and (at least with WEEK01-06 as examples) more relevant. New players—both myself last year and one of my buddies this year—find the story awards a big hook to keep playing.
I'm not talking about making anything game breaking, but my character was the only one who earned WEEK03: An enchanted meal, and that had a great effect on developing his character.
The module was quite fun though; I'm a sucker for exclusive events like these and it was worth the effort putting it together.
Dear Shawn,
First off, thanks very much for writing what turned out to be a really fun adventure - like many here my table at the weekend had a player who had never played D&D before, a nine year old etc.
Now, I know I always say I want criticism, and I never mean it. I'm going to pretend I believe that Shawn means it:-)
1) Cool stuff - Skill challenges handled really well, integrated into combat. The first challenge with the statue the table pretty much ignored, being keen to tear into combat (we had been at the table for almost two hours before the first encounter, which may have got them raring to go). The second skill challenge with the Icy Queen worked really well, with the players conflicted between defending themselves and defeating the demon.
2) Stuff that didn't quite work so well - like others I felt the background was a bit lacking. I had spent a couple of evenings on the 'net finding out everything I could about Narfell (not much) and developing the NPCs/Bildoobaris. This was good in many ways, we had more roleplaying/skill challenges before the adventure started so the motivation was there. Really good DMs might have been able to run this with an hour's prep (though I've been playing a pretty long time I haven't DM'd that much) and I felt that a pick up game with new players who don't know each other needs clearer background and motivation to maximise the fun. Well, it does if I'm running it, anyway:-)
Unexpected problem - I gave one of the players a "free Heal skill roll" in the second encounter to identify that one of the Creel wasn't dead. After the previous encounter with the baazuled the first thing he did was stab Loggoth. Oops. (Luckily with a bit of hinting the next thing the party did was heal him).
Overall - thanks very much, lots of enthusiasm all round here in Dundee.
I was sort of under the impression that this adventure was the first of a series - maybe I got the wrong end of the stick.
If it is, when does the next part come out?
If it isn't, any guidance as to the best next LFR adventure?
Well I ended up not running the module (due to getting stuck in traffic on the way to the event for 10 minutes), but the DM had all the relevant notes and it made a big difference.
Mind you we still dropped everything in the 3rd encounter, and then saved the Queen... (and my Druid rocked which was good ).
Cailte's in Australia, so despite our dollar being almost one-for-one with the US, the WotC paperback novels tend to retail at .95 or .95 (ie
If only it was as simple as the exchange rate. Alas our market here is a bit wonky for a number of reasons you can only be aware of if you have worked behind the counter. It is a tough time to be a store in Oz when your customers can purchase things far cheaper online, including postage, than you can compete with at your counter. Fortunately for our FLGS most players are willing to spend the $$ to support the store that supports us.
I want to thank Shawn for coming on the boards and giving so much advice to the DM's running the mod. I ran it twice over the weekend, and it definitely helped a lot. I know the players at my table really had fun, and it seemed like the everyone at the tables around me did too.
I do have one bit of constructive criticism that I wouldn't have learned except by running or playing in the adventure. I don't think it was clear enough that the Icy Queen could be saved through a skill challenge, and that it would help in the actual combat against her leutenants and dragon. I don't know if that's a problem in the writing or DMing, but few players seemed to think that was an option. The dragon and leutenants are such an immediate threat that I think the Icy Queen is just ignored until they are dealt with. In the one table I was running where they did use the skill challenge, it was a little kid who wanted to befriend the dragon (which everyone else thought was a bad tactical choice, especially since he was a ranger and not good at diplomacy) who started the group using skills in the encounter. He was addressing the dragon, but he rolled high, and his statement was general enough that he convinced one of the leutenants not to fight; so then the rest of the party knew that they didn't necessarily need to fight the fey.
I bet the kid was relatively new to LFR, and the rest of the table was veterans.
Our table of 5 first, 1 second level PCs eliminated to unconscious the dragon before it took its first action. (Ooops. It rolled low for init.) We did have a silent malediction invoker, but he didn't punch that off until round TWO of the fight.
Seasoned living campaign players will interpret hostile intent from a dragon as a signal that "NOW IS THE TIME TO NOVA".... and level one PCs designed for LFR can nova Pretty Darn Well.
(On the subject of the pregens: better than the last few batches, except for... the cleric. Guardian Spirit? Really?)
I enjoyed this adventure, the main critique being that it leaves a big hook dangling that I fear we weill never see resol;ved in game (as it is, quite obvously, a novel element). On the one hand, good for my PC, who made a lot of empty promsies to the Icy Queen and Aglarath to keep them happy, on the other hand, pity she'll never will actually have to struggle with the moral conflicts.
My investment in the adventure may be different from most other players, as my character actually is a Creel, but even without it this is a story with a lot of interesting background and a mood that is a bit different from most other adventures.
It does enhance the mood if you know a bit of what goes on in Narfell (i.e. on the old war etc, as that explains - partly - the taboo areas), and it helps if you have a bit more info on the girl from the novel.
Gomez
To help convey the option of a skill challenge alternative to fighting, it helps (not a guarantee) if the DM clearly, completely explains what the PCs observe, and provide knowledge and insight passive checks. For instance, a passive knowledge check on the monsters should let the PCs know they are unaligned, not evil. Then give a passive insight check,...they appear surprised and upset that someone has invaded their domain and appears to threaten their queen. I would have one the LTs shout "kill the invading scum who threaten our queen."
To be sure, some players get in the "slaughter everything" mindset and it is hard to turn that off. Two of the three tables I ran personally got it really quick; the third table was a bit slower, but eventually they got it. (They said something like, hey, wait a minute, are we supposed to be killing the fey or the demon?) 
Also, give a passive religion, arcana, nature check DC10, in cases like that skill challenge, to realize that usage of religion, arcane, nature (respectively) might be effective to separate the fire demon and the Icy Queen. Sometimes players need nudges that it is not simply knowledge but may manipulate those power sources.
Keith
Seasoned living campaign players will interpret hostile intent from a dragon as a signal that "NOW IS THE TIME TO NOVA".... and level one PCs designed for LFR can nova Pretty Darn Well.
It is good to shake up the veteran players, actually. I liked that aspect of the skill challenges.
Mechanics-wise, it was interesting that it could make the combat so substantially easier. One success to remove one liutenant is both cool (in that it immediately signals to the players that this is a worthwhile option) and uncool (makes the threat much lower). For the type of game it was, this was great. (Compare to the 4E intro that killed most tables off with that black dragon... yeah, I'll take this every time!)
Along the lines of what Keith said, I found a lot of players would ask about what was going on, and then I gave them a free arcana or other relevant check. The result was simply to summarize some options.
Again looking at encounter construction, I really liked that the skill challenge created options for those PCs that were restrained. It removed the 'nerf' aspect, which was perfect for new players. The new player with their PC doesn't want to be rooted in one place unable to act... and now they end up saving the party with a skill check... pretty cool.
Here's one possible danger to using the in-combat skill challenge. While I was playing, my group was backed up on the ice ledge and immediately below it. Many of us were frozen in place. It wasn't until about 4 rounds into the battle that anyone had line of sight to the queen. Once we did, our wizard cranked out a natural 20 skill check and the whole tenor of the situation changed.
Maybe it was a freak occurence or maybe the DM could have thrown us a bone (we could have heard the battle between the Queen and the demon, etc), but either way it was looking like a TPK before we even knew of the possibility of a different resolution to the situation.
We had a similar occurance. Our group ended up with a surprise round and one PC who could see the woman (we later learned to be the queen). He indicated that it appeared she was fighting something unseen, and after giving us that info we knew something was up. And here I think the DM might have made a misstep. We spent the surprise rounds making very good (19-23 insight rolls), the DM indicated that the dragon and Lieutenants were very hostile to us. We thought it was possible that the Lieutenants and dragon might even be responsible for the fight the woman undergoing. So we attacked. It was several rounds in before someone figured out they could aid the woman with skills. They had 2 of us bloodied but we had one lieutenant bloodied and the dragon bloodied (nearly dead we later found out).
Perhaps it was meant to be confusing? If not...than it could have been a bit more clear (especially with good insight rolls) that we had other options.
In the two sessions we ran this weekend, we did not get to the last encounter. The Friday evening session, went for four hours and we got as far as beginning the second combat encounter. In the Saturday session we went for five hours and we got as far as the end of the second combat encounter. We will be finishing the last encounter next week.
We have significantly changed the last encounter:
- to ensure that the PCs have incentive to aid the Icy Queen,
- to ensure that they are not confused about what they need to do
- to make better use of the room.
- to make the encounter more climactic.
First, at the outset we allowed Priatelle to tell PCs that she suspected that Argalath was reviving the ancient and evil art of demonbinding. And that, if he continued, he could bring about the downfall of his people, as it did his ancestors in ancient Narfell. So the PCs already know that the demonbinding is something they should appose. It also gives players who are new to the Realms a little taste of the historical depth of Forgotten Realms lore.
Second, we have moved the ice in the last room to the southern end of the room, and isolated the Icy Queen at the south end of it. The Dragon will be along the west wall. This will force the players to eventually cross the ice and make generally better use of the space.
Second, when the PCs enter, the Icy Queen´s guards will be partially possessed by Baazuled, while the Icy Queen will be engaged in a spectacular combat with the Shaman Captain of the Creel contingent, who has given over his soul to form a Greater Baazuled. The dragon takes turns alternately attacking the PCs and aiding the queen in her battle.
The guards, under the partial control of the demons, initially attack the PCs. But they begin to fight off the lesser Baazuled demons seeking to control them, and take turns momentarily breaking off from combat with the PCs. The PCs can see the demons as they emerge from and then re-enter the bodies of the guards. The guards, who experience moments of clarity, and who quickly realize that the PCs are not more Creel warriors, plead with the PCs to come to their aid and help them defeat the demons. Clearly this help cannot be in the form of simply wacking at the demons. This introduces the PCs to the notion of using their skills to defeat the demons.
Just as the PCs begin to succeed in aiding the guards, the Icy Queen defeats the Greater Baazuled/Creel Captain. But the demon is immediately seen rising from the Creel Captain´s body and to attack and attempt to possess the Icy Queen. The dragon is confused about what to do at this point.
When the PCs succeed in helping the guards defeat their demons. All attention is turned to the Icy Queen, who is struggling against the demon. The guards quickly explain that they must aid the Icy Queen because she is a powerful fey sorceress, and if this powerful demon succeeds in possessing her, they will all die, and demon will take power over both this region and the Icy Queen´s fey realm.
But as the guards and PCs approach, the Demon scoffs at them and throws up a wall of flames to keep them at bay. The guards and the dragon immediately set about suppressing the fire with frost. PCs with frost powers may aid them. They succeed in creating a gap in the wall of fire and urge the PCs press forward as they hold back the flames.
The PCs then proceed to make use of skill checks to help her defeat the demon.
I´ll let you all know how it goes.
Attached are a couple of pictures of the set I built for the second encounter. The card-stock model terrain is the Caverns of Chaos set by Fat Dragon Games.
Here's one possible danger to using the in-combat skill challenge. While I was playing, my group was backed up on the ice ledge and immediately below it. Many of us were frozen in place. It wasn't until about 4 rounds into the battle that anyone had line of sight to the queen. Once we did, our wizard cranked out a natural 20 skill check and the whole tenor of the situation changed.
Maybe it was a freak occurence or maybe the DM could have thrown us a bone (we could have heard the battle between the Queen and the demon, etc), but either way it was looking like a TPK before we even knew of the possibility of a different resolution to the situation.
It could be a little clearer with regards to the various entities and how the DM can guide the players towards learning what is going on in a fun way. That's pretty much why a couple of us exchanged ideas early in the thread. (Of course, not all DMs read the forums). But, what is clear is that everyone gets a surprise round. Assuming half the PCs make their acrobatics checks, they won't be prone and will likely move to engage the visible liutenant, charging. I've yet to see a table not do that in the four I was a part of. When you reach the liutenant you can see the whole of the room. To not have that happen, you have to get through the surprise round without anyone moving forward or charging. Possible, but doubtful. This might have been DM error.
The mod does not really make it clear when DMs should clue PCs about the skill challenges, but I think it should be pretty obvious that this is DM's judgement territory. I mean, if you are past round one and the PCs haven't realized they can use skills, but you have this big part of the encounter dedicated to a skill challenge... um, yeah, it's time to clue the PCs onto the opportunity.
But, I chalk this up to things authors and reviewers can learn from. Incorporating skill challenges into combats is still a relatively new territory and the way they were done here was fairly innovative. The sandbox is vast, and that's a cool thing about 4E.
In our case, we did not all go down at once, which may ironically have helped us. Our druid went down by himself initally (to test the ice), followed closely by my familiar (which can fly and was invisible). The druid 's surprise action was to attack, but my familiar, a non-combatant, spent its action investigating the queen (since a familiar can make skill checks). She quickly determined what went on, shouted it up to my character, who managed to convince at least some of the party of the alternate way to solve the problem.
We managed to solve the encounter in the next round, with two charctares using Diplomacy to have the fey stand down, and several others (including my familiar) helping the queen. The tough part was getting some of our trigger-happy fellow adventurers to stop fighting...
I ahve toa dmit I was first unsure f the 'queen' was the womanw e were looking for (I realized she didn't look right, but figured it was possible she was possessed). That was quickly resolved after the fight.
I was slightly dissapointed that we didn't find the girl, but on the upside I got to meet Aglarath at the end and tell him what the icy queen told us.
Gomez
That was similar to what happened to us. We sent our ranger down to check out the situation. He tried to stealth around and was immediately spotted by the lieutenant, who charged him, rather than the other way around. This moved the battle from the center of the room to the bottom of the ice slide. As the rest of us arrived, we piled up there and took a dragon breath full on in the face. That left us with no surprise round and being frozen away from the center of the room. To his credit, our DM had something (the lieutenant?) move our wizard farther into the room, allowing her (once she made her death save and eventually got a heal) to be ideally situated to intervene in the Queen's struggle. She immediately moved in, used skills, and got things back on track.
I thought the final skill challenge was a cool way to resolve things in the Queen's realm and am a big proponent of mixing combat and skills (though not so much "skill challenges," but that's another debate best left elsewhere). I hope we see more of this. I liked that, as soon as the creatures came out of the muck in the first battle, our demon-hating Deva invoker was able to skill check identify them in time to warn the party back, saving most from the detonation but building tension right up until they blew. Our ranger was using, albeit poorly, the stealth skill. We all used various skills in the trading bazaar to get information and avoid being ripped off. We used Acrobatics skills on the ice. We were using skills all over the place and it seemed very natural. As a party, we all immediately went to skills as soon as we saw the demon fighting the queen.
Can't believe no-one has commented on the awesome 3D floorplans Afet posted.
What the heck? How long did they take you?
Can't believe no-one has commented on the awesome 3D floorplans Afet posted.
What the heck? How long did they take you?
Heh, those are completely sweet. I started doing the same thing but my week before the event was kind of busy, so I didn't finish 'em. I really like Fat Dragon's papercraft PDFs, though.
Can't speak for Afet, but that would have chewed up all my evenings for the week. He might be faster than I am. On the other hand, it's all reusable.
Overall, the Icy Queen's Crossing was the most fun I've had playing LFR. Ever.
To each their own, but ... seriously? Then I think you need to play more. ;-p
I am impressed. That is some cool terrain!
Week1-2 was fun, but it was definitely trumped by ADCP1-1, where our all-girl PC party totally rocked. Even the organiser mispronouncing our COmpany's name 'Girrrl Power' as 'Leather **** Kittens' couldn't diminish the rush of totally owning, like, everyone!
Gomez
Heh, those are completely sweet. I started doing the same thing but my week before the event was kind of busy, so I didn't finish 'em. I really like Fat Dragon's papercraft PDFs, though.
Can't speak for Afet, but that would have chewed up all my evenings for the week. He might be faster than I am. On the other hand, it's all reusable.
Thanks. It actually goes together quite quickly once you get moving and develop a system. When making several pieces, like any assembly line product, the devil is in the margins. I just group similar tasks and eliminate innefficient steps. In any case, I do these a little bit at a time, and I enjoy the crafting. For me, the results are worth it. These pieces will last for years, and I can re-use them to make any cavern I can imagine.
The Cavern pieces are far more geometrically complex than those of the E-Z Dungeons Deluxe set by Fat Dragon Games, which is a breeze to put together. For those who prefer 2D tiles, the Copper Dragon tiles sets are great too.
Seasoned living campaign players will interpret hostile intent from a dragon as a signal that "NOW IS THE TIME TO NOVA".... and level one PCs designed for LFR can nova Pretty Darn Well.
It is good to shake up the veteran players, actually. I liked that aspect of the skill challenges.Mechanics-wise, it was interesting that it could make the combat so substantially easier. One success to remove one liutenant is both cool (in that it immediately signals to the players that this is a worthwhile option) and uncool (makes the threat much lower). For the type of game it was, this was great. (Compare to the 4E intro that killed most tables off with that black dragon... yeah, I'll take this every time!)
I agree. I think the combatants in the third combat encounter were not threatening enough. Maybe our DM should've leveled the dragon so it would've gotten to go once... it might have changed the fight around a bit.
A fight where you need to REALLY kick butt, or go to the skill challenge, might have been a better use of the don't-always-need-to-kick-things trope.
The tables around here almost always capture and execute at leisure after interrogation. It tends to save time and trouble...
That is what I thought... The players are sure going to be happy.
Just remind them about the slot-free magic item. At least one of them is likely to be useful for some time (Lumia's Bracelet).
Until 6th level when they replace it with a bracelet of +2 damage? Dunno that they'll even get a chance to use it before that in any meaningful way. They might keep it around, just in case, but I'm pretty dubious of its usefulness.
There is a 1-4 where it is useful that I know of, and frankly it is one of those odd items that is useful at all levels. You can take it and swap it on when needed when you get more generically useful items at higher levels.
Does anyone know if this adventure is part of a planned series, like the novel to which it is linked, or is it entirely stand alone?
Cheers,
The events of "Icy Queen's Crossing" were based on the events in the novel The Fall of Highwatch by Mark Sehestedt: currently available wherever WotC products are sold. The book is part of a trilogy called Chosen of Nendawen. I believe the next book in the trilogy will be released in December 2010. If the Forgotten Realms Story Team sees fit to allow more LFR adventures to use the characters from the novels, then you might see a follow-up. However, it is completely in their hands.
I would only add that when it became clear that the PCs were faced with a set of skill challenges, we ignored the skill challenge descriptions in the adventure (some of which were laughably silly), but announced that it was a skill challenge and which skills could be employed. We then encouraged the PCs to think of creative ways to use them in the context. They came up with some great ideas.
Cheers,
Afet
In the two sessions we ran this weekend, we did not get to the last encounter. The Friday evening session, went for four hours and we got as far as beginning the second combat encounter. In the Saturday session we went for five hours and we got as far as the end of the second combat encounter. We will be finishing the last encounter next week.
We have significantly changed the last encounter:
- to ensure that the PCs have incentive to aid the Icy Queen,
- to ensure that they are not confused about what they need to do
- to make better use of the room.
- to make the encounter more climactic.
First, at the outset we allowed Priatelle to tell PCs that she suspected that Argalath was reviving the ancient and evil art of demonbinding. And that, if he continued, he could bring about the downfall of his people, as it did his ancestors in ancient Narfell. So the PCs already know that the demonbinding is something they should appose. It also gives players who are new to the Realms a little taste of the historical depth of Forgotten Realms lore.
Second, we have moved the ice in the last room to the southern end of the room, and isolated the Icy Queen at the south end of it. The Dragon will be along the west wall. This will force the players to eventually cross the ice and make generally better use of the space.
Second, when the PCs enter, the Icy Queen´s guards will be partially possessed by Baazuled, while the Icy Queen will be engaged in a spectacular combat with the Shaman Captain of the Creel contingent, who has given over his soul to form a Greater Baazuled. The dragon takes turns alternately attacking the PCs and aiding the queen in her battle.
The guards, under the partial control of the demons, initially attack the PCs. But they begin to fight off the lesser Baazuled demons seeking to control them, and take turns momentarily breaking off from combat with the PCs. The PCs can see the demons as they emerge from and then re-enter the bodies of the guards. The guards, who experience moments of clarity, and who quickly realize that the PCs are not more Creel warriors, plead with the PCs to come to their aid and help them defeat the demons. Clearly this help cannot be in the form of simply wacking at the demons. This introduces the PCs to the notion of using their skills to defeat the demons.
Just as the PCs begin to succeed in aiding the guards, the Icy Queen defeats the Greater Baazuled/Creel Captain. But the demon is immediately seen rising from the Creel Captain´s body and to attack and attempt to possess the Icy Queen. The dragon is confused about what to do at this point.
When the PCs succeed in helping the guards defeat their demons. All attention is turned to the Icy Queen, who is struggling against the demon. The guards quickly explain that they must aid the Icy Queen because she is a powerful fey sorceress, and if this powerful demon succeeds in possessing her, they will all die, and demon will take power over both this region and the Icy Queen´s fey realm.
But as the guards and PCs approach, the Demon scoffs at them and throws up a wall of flames to keep them at bay. The guards and the dragon immediately set about suppressing the fire with frost. PCs with frost powers may aid them. They succeed in creating a gap in the wall of fire and urge the PCs press forward as they hold back the flames.
The PCs then proceed to make use of skill checks to help her defeat the demon.
I´ll let you all know how it goes.
Attached are a couple of pictures of the set I built for the second encounter. The card-stock model terrain is the Caverns of Chaos set by Fat Dragon Games.
No more runs of this module, any more than WEEK1-1 through WEEK1-3 are legal to run...
Umm, you DO know that this adventure was ONLY legal to run, other than as early "Slot 0s", on Nov. 5-8, 2009, and it then expired?
No more runs of this module, any more than WEEK1-1 through WEEK1-3 are legal to run...
As an official LFR event, yes. But anyone could play this adventure as part of a non-LFR campaign. In fact, this short module is more like a hook than an adventure. Anyone could take it as a starting point for a longer campaign.
Cheers,
Did want to come back and say, when we ran it, we had fun. I got my novel in time to read a few chapters in, so I made Argalath more scary, and that worked. I wish I had gotten to the section where Hweilan encounters the Icy Queen in her throneroom, because I would have re-skinned and fluffed the end encounter a lot.
I'm a little saddened that they didn't give you access to sooo much info from the novel, which would have made for a really nice "hey, play in this part of the Forgotten Realms..."
Aside: between the recent fey kingdoms in the Moonshaes, the swamp eladrin in Cormyr, and these eladrin/elves/fey from Narfell, it almost feels like there is more rewrite or changes in the 4e Realms, but no new sourcebooks or DDI (Dragon) articles on them. I guess I am still of the school of thought that these "summer/winter" elemental/seasons eladrin are not the Sun and Moon elves of the Realms. Sure, I accepted that those elven subraces became eladrin and the wild & wood became elves, but... There is also the hole in the redeemed Drow who Q'arlynd Melarn freed from their black skin curse... are they "officially" eladrin or elves, and why has no article been written on them?
Some of my friends who read my post early on said I was too harsh. Forgive me, again. With a little advice, I was able to tweak the module and make it interesting, but the demon-possessed Creel in the module did not feel like the ones from the book. (I know, I know, different authors...) With a little more allowance and connective communication between WotC, maybe giving Shawn access to Mark (the novel author), this could have gone from a good piece of work, to an awesome event, which I am sure would have jump-started some Narfell campaigns!
(No minis... imagine how many of us would have loved a few pale elf/eladrin and frost barbarian minis! I know I would have used them again and again...)
Shawn - My best praise for the skill challenges! I think the players really enjoyed using them during combat, especially if the guy with the statue is blasting them, and they turn off his statue and then beat him down. Players always like to say "hah!" to a baddie, and then, when the baddie shrieks in terror without his big bad weapon, they like to smack him.
I have one tiny suggestion, which I think would knock it out of the park for RPGA modules and events, and make those Paizo guys envious: Put some art in these adventures. If players hear "You see this: " from their DM, and it has some NPC or regional or monster art, (and no, not that smiley wench from Loudwater re-cast as the Icy Queen...) ... I think more art in these modules is something that would rock and set them on a higher level of oomph.
Oh, and by the way, where can I get stats for those little fey smurf hunters and those cool snow tigers? Tell someone to do a DDI article... please?
