Sunday was a party of 6 consisting of 2 wizards, 2 defenders, 1 cleric and 1 striker. 3 of the PCs were starting characters, and another one started at level 1. Even though we had some tough time and poor luck, we fared way better because of the controllers' ability to blast areas, negate concealment, etc.
Do you also believe wizards are more useful after playing this mod?
I'm still not convinced Wizards are uber-good at killing minions. It seems to me they're more similar to a ranged archer. At least I've DM'd a group with a Wizard and it felt like that. And my wizard also feels like it.
Wizards are good at killing minions because of the area effect powers they have. A 1st level wizard with cloud of daggers can kill off groups of minions at will.
I get that. I just haven't seen it happen ;)
Its nice to keep an eye out for items like that to help when you have a party that lacks minion slaying...
A lot has to do with the room size. Rooms tended to be medium sized with features, which helped to create some clumping for minions. I liked the room sizes, actually. Some of the LFR rooms have been so big as to prevent any real use of control powers.
Teos
Wizards are good at killing minions because of the area effect powers they have. A 1st level wizard with cloud of daggers can kill off groups of minions at will.
Just curious, unless the minions form a conga line and dance through your daggers, how do you accomplish that? The silly thing only occupies one square and you can't move it.
Just curious, unless the minions form a conga line and dance through your daggers, how do you accomplish that? The silly thing only occupies one square and you can't move it.
This. Cloud of Daggers FTL.
I have seen that spell totally rock, and totally suck, depending on the player's die rolls.
1) it automatically kills the minion you target with it.
2) several classes get powers that allow them to slide/p/p the enemy
3) anyone else can try a bull rush if htey want to (only worth it for strong people but possibly better than attacking depending on situation and minion)
4) you can use the Orb to make it last an extra round.
It's still not that amazing against minions but it does block off a square for a bit and does good damage against non-minions too.
The real controller in the party was my swordmage with greenflame blade, sword burst, and flame cyclone powers, all of which are nice control/minion-slaying attacks.
Except Greenflame blade shouldn't kill minions. Minions cannot be killed by any damage against them that didn't require an attack roll against them or damage that happens on a miss. Hence why they don't get killed by the pass through damage from Cleave, etc.
Sword Burst and Flame Cyclone would work since they are Bursts that target every creature in the area of effect (and Flame Cyclone targets allies as well as enemies making Sword Burst your best bet in close quarters). Greenflame blade only targets one enemy with one attack roll.
If your DM was killing off minions with that attack he ran it wrong. You got a gift.
A minion is destroyed when it takes any amount of damage. Damage from an attack or from a source that doesn’t require an attack roll (such as the paladin’s divine challenge or the fighter’s cleave) destroys a minion. If a minion is missed by an attack that normally deals
damage on a miss, however, it takes no damage.
Do you also believe wizards are more useful after playing this mod?
This doesn't seem to match with the title of the thread. 4.0 wizards spend more time as artillery, I think, than controlling, regardless of what WotC may want you to think.
My orb wizard was spending most of his time using Ray of Frost to slow opponents down and keep them from charging or doing hit and run attacks and Illusory ambush to dole out negatives to attack. Rarely would I use Magic missile unless Reflex was their worst defense and i was havign a hard time hitting the Fort or Will. A few Chill Strikes to daze big nasties followed by an AP Ray of Frost to keep it out of combat and Orb Mastery to keep the daze going next turn with another ray of Frost did wonders for allowing the team to clean up the minons before the big nasty got into combat.
But that's me...
Minions cannot be killed by any damage against them that didn't require an attack roll against them or damage that happens on a miss. Hence why they don't get killed by the pass through damage from Cleave, etc.
Incorrect. If you read the quote you, yourself, provided then you'll see where you missed it.
A minion is destroyed when it takes any amount of damage. Damage from an attack or from a source that doesn’t require an attack roll (such as the paladin’s divine challenge or the fighter’s cleave) destroys a minion. If a minion is missed by an attack that normally deals
damage on a miss, however, it takes no damage.
Those are two separate comments. The first says that if an attack does damage without a roll, it destroys a minion. The second says that if an attack deals damage on a miss, the minion takes no damage.
If your DM isn't running it this way, you are getting the shaft.
Minions? Bah! I was dropping area of effect spells and damaging creatures so the Strikers, Defenders, or Leaders could drop them in a single hit (or outright killing the nasty vile creatures myself).
My Battlemage of Torm (in title only) is not a weak link. He is the foundation of a well balance, and organized adventuing group.
-Timmy!
Colorado Springs
RPGA Club: Steele Justice
Depends on how the player plays the class. They have the potential to be artillery if you build them that way, though they will never equal a striker in damage output.
My orb wizard was spending most of his time using Ray of Frost to slow opponents down and keep them from charging or doing hit and run attacks and Illusory ambush to dole out negatives to attack. Rarely would I use Magic missile unless Reflex was their worst defense and i was havign a hard time hitting the Fort or Will. A few Chill Strikes to daze big nasties followed by an AP Ray of Frost to keep it out of combat and Orb Mastery to keep the daze going next turn with another ray of Frost did wonders for allowing the team to clean up the minons before the big nasty got into combat.
But that's me...
You must have some amazing to hit numbers. Every time I try that tactic, I miss about 75% of the time.
You must have some amazing to hit numbers. Every time I try that tactic, I miss about 75% of the time.
@ 2nd level I'm +5 to hit, plus we found the +2 Implement so I got to use that during the mod making it +7. Coupled with Action Surge and a warlord giving bonuses when I AP'd I would have a +12 to hit. That and some good rolls.
I also used my knowledge skills to good effect to find out what the best tactic against an enemy was (i.e. which defense was easiest to hit, what it was vulnerable to) as well as trial and error.
@ 2nd level I'm +5 to hit, plus we found the +2 Implement so I got to use that during the mod making it +7. Coupled with Action Surge and a warlord giving bonuses when I AP'd I would have a +12 to hit. That and some good rolls.
I also used my knowledge skills to good effect to find out what the best tactic against an enemy was (i.e. which defense was easiest to hit, what it was vulnerable to) as well as trial and error.
Sounds like a fun time, although per RAW you cannot actually tell monster defense values with a knowledge check. I believe the best you can get is Level, type, keywords, attacks, resistances and vulnerabilities, and powers...but as DM I'd certainly allow you to get its Defense values as well...
Just curious, unless the minions form a conga line and dance through your daggers, how do you accomplish that? The silly thing only occupies one square and you can't move it.
For what it's worth, the tactics for the minions in the lightning pillar room were: Attacks nearest PC. If no PC is adjacent, it moves directly to the nearest PC and attacks.
It says nothing about avoiding obvious death traps. It would not be unreasonable for a DM to have them run straight into a Cloud of Daggers and die.
Though I would not expect that to happen in most fights. These things were I think rather explicitly supposed to be stupid. If I'd ran them as tactically and evilly as I could, the PCs would have never made it through the infinite flow of minions.
Incorrect. If you read the quote you, yourself, provided then you'll see where you missed it.
Ugh! Time for me to go back tp remedial reading class... I have no idea how I read that the way I did...
Though I would not expect that to happen in most fights. These things were I think rather explicitly supposed to be stupid. If I'd ran them as tactically and evilly as I could, the PCs would have never made it through the infinite flow of minions.
Welll they're skeletons. They're mindless undead. Although I'd have to go back and check the MM to see if they gave them Int scores and of so how low they were.
In the lightning pillar room in particular, I killed 17(!!) minions in one turn while the wizard got mobbed and fled thru the pillar after a thunderwave missed all but one skellie.
Not sure what you're talking about -- oh, wait. You actually set off the trap? I played twice and DMed once, and it always took longer to set up the room than pass it over for full XP.
Personally, I think any party failing its INT check that badly should lose XP.
Not sure what you're talking about -- oh, wait. You actually set off the trap? I played twice and DMed once, and it always took longer to set up the room than pass it over for full XP.
Personally, I think any party failing its INT check that badly should lose XP.
Running over and pulling random levers is actually counter intuitive to most adventuring parties I know. It's that sort of stuff that usually triggers random wail of the banshee or sphere of annihilation goodness.
many old school gamers were cautious of it.
Not sure what you're talking about -- oh, wait. You actually set off the trap? I played twice and DMed once, and it always took longer to set up the room than pass it over for full XP.
Personally, I think any party failing its INT check that badly should lose XP.
So far, I've only seen two methods that would reliably avoid setting off the traps. One requires teleportation, the other involved using Mage Hand to tie a rope to the lever for remote Strength checks.
Even running straight across shouldn't work, as the spawning skeletons will cut off the character's route to the lever after the first couple of squares.
Running over and pulling random levers is actually counter intuitive to most adventuring parties I know. It's that sort of stuff that usually triggers random wail of the banshee or sphere of annihilation goodness.
many old school gamers were cautious of it.
Makes sense, especially if they recognize (or you let them know early on) that "Haunted Halls" was the site of an early published adventure back in the TSR days..