Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Jay_Ibero_911 Jul 04, 2009 11:07:12	Windrise ports allows taking 2 multiclass feats, so in this case the character takes net training and fighter multiclass. Here are the feats that come together to make things interesting: Two-Weapon Fighting: Pre-req for binding style Binding Style: Arena feat, hit twice with twin strike using spear and flail, slide target 1 square. Battle Awareness: Fighter MC, pre-req for polearm momentum. Polearm Momentum: Knock target prone with twin strike after increasing slide distance. Net Training: Slow any target hit by your net, which is also a flail weapon. Equipment: Staggering Net +X: Increases slide distance by enhancement bonus. Rushing Cleats: Adds one to slide distance. So once this all comes together, if you hit twice with twin strike you will ideally end up sliding the target 3 or more squares from you and leave them prone and slowed. Making it very difficult for them to get at you or your allies. Half-Orc or Longtooth Shifter work best for this due to the high Str, Dex, and Wis requirements. Thoughts?
#2 Dragon9 Jul 04, 2009 12:06:01	How are you twin striking with a polearm? Polearms are 2-H weapons. EDIT: A spear is not a polearm. A Longspear is. So it wouldn't qualify for Polearm Momentum.
#3 Misroi Jul 04, 2009 12:20:32	However, Polearm Momentum reads "whenever you use a polearm or spear attack...". While a spear may not be a polearm, it most definitely is a spear. The Windrise Ports regional benefit, however, reads "You can take class-specific multiclass feats for two classes other than your own." It says nothing about the Net Multiclass feat, which is a weird special case. It is possible to read it so that Net Multiclass (along with the other weapon multiclassing feats, the Dhampyr bloodline, etc.) cut you out of the ability to use your regional background. You could become a fighter multiclassed into warlord and ranger, for instance, but taking that warlord feat prevents you from learning the finer points of a blowgun. Still, the Net Training multiclass feat really isn't necessary for the build. You can just as easily buy Weapon Proficiency (Net) and not really lose all that much. As an additional kick, why not make the spear a +X Skewering Spear? Then you can cause the unlucky fellow hit by your combo to be prone, shoved a few squares away, and immobilized (save ends).
#4 Dragon9 Jul 04, 2009 12:53:40	However, Polearm Momentum reads "whenever you use a polearm or spear attack...". That's what I get for being lazy and only looking at the chart. :P
#5 Jay_Ibero_911 Jul 04, 2009 15:10:52	However, Polearm Momentum reads "whenever you use a polearm or spear attack...". While a spear may not be a polearm, it most definitely is a spear. The Windrise Ports regional benefit, however, reads "You can take class-specific multiclass feats for two classes other than your own." It says nothing about the Net Multiclass feat, which is a weird special case. It is possible to read it so that Net Multiclass (along with the other weapon multiclassing feats, the Dhampyr bloodline, etc.) cut you out of the ability to use your regional background. You could become a fighter multiclassed into warlord and ranger, for instance, but taking that warlord feat prevents you from learning the finer points of a blowgun. Still, the Net Training multiclass feat really isn't necessary for the build. You can just as easily buy Weapon Proficiency (Net) and not really lose all that much. As an additional kick, why not make the spear a +X Skewering Spear? Then you can cause the unlucky fellow hit by your combo to be prone, shoved a few squares away, and immobilized (save ends). A Class specific multiclass feat is anything that would otherwise prevent you from multiclassing in a different class. The weapon training multiclasses all count as class specific multiclass, same as spellscarred, or any normal class. So you could indeed have both net training and fighter multiclass. There'd be no point in taking just net proficiency since without net training a regularl old flail is a better option. It's also fun to be able to slow targets at range with twin strike.
#6 Dragon9 Jul 04, 2009 20:41:18	The weapon training multiclasses all count as class specific multiclass, same as spellscarred, or any normal class. So you could indeed have both net training and fighter multiclass. You seem to be saying things both ways here. They count as class specific so you can have both? Regardless, you couldn't do fighter multiclass and net multiclass. You can only have one multiclass (unless you're a bard). EDIT: The text from the Weapon mastery MC feats: "Since the weapon mastery training feats require a great deal of focused training, each one is a multiclass feat. Normal rules for selecting multiclass feats apply." i.e. you can only have one. Even in the CB once you take a MC feat you are closed off to the others including the weapon training MCs.
#7 ibixat Jul 05, 2009 0:55:00	You seem to be saying things both ways here. They count as class specific so you can have both? Regardless, you couldn't do fighter multiclass and net multiclass. You can only have one multiclass (unless you're a bard). EDIT: The text from the Weapon mastery MC feats: "Since the weapon mastery training feats require a great deal of focused training, each one is a multiclass feat. Normal rules for selecting multiclass feats apply." i.e. you can only have one. Even in the CB once you take a MC feat you are closed off to the others including the weapon training MCs. Windrise port allows you to take two MC feats. A non-windrise port option is to be a bard, MC into both of them, and at 11th level use your paragon tier feat to take the half elf thingy that turns dilletante power into at will, naturally you'd have taken twin strike as your dilletante... I have no clue how the stats work out for that setup though.
#8 Misroi Jul 05, 2009 1:10:37	If a weaponmastery multiclass feat is the same as a class-specific multiclass feat, why did the writers put in the extra verbiage? If it was intended to mean "you can take two multiclass feats instead of one," why put in the confusing bits about classes? Isn't it more logical to think that "class-specific" means that they are referring to the class-based multiclass feats (such as Warrior of the Wild and Battle Awareness), and not Spellscarred, Dhampyr, etc.? Now, if this was a home game, I wouldn't have any problem with someone trying to do this. All in all, it's a neat little trick that can be done, I wouldn't say it's overpowering, and it requires eight levels to really get going. As you said, it's fun to do this! Of course, the problem here is that I have to make a ruling on that, and that's verboten in LFR. As a result, unless there's errata about this, it sure seems as though the background disallows the particular setup you have. Which is definitely too bad, because I could have used this to make my bugbear garotte specialist dhampyr something other than a bard, since I'd like to use my Bugbear Strangler miniature more often than I do...you know, when they make bugbears a playable race. It's only a matter of time...
#9 Dragon9 Jul 05, 2009 7:42:38	Grrraaah! Too many new rules to remember! You young whippersnappers and your fancy new-fangled rules. Why, when I was a kid, all we had was a player's handbook... carved into stoen tablets! It weighed 500 pounds! and we had to walk uphill both ways in 5 feet of snow just to play! And you know what? WE LIKED IT!!!
#10 Jay_Ibero_911 Jul 05, 2009 10:28:45	If a weaponmastery multiclass feat is the same as a class-specific multiclass feat, why did the writers put in the extra verbiage? If it was intended to mean "you can take two multiclass feats instead of one," why put in the confusing bits about classes? Isn't it more logical to think that "class-specific" means that they are referring to the class-based multiclass feats (such as Warrior of the Wild and Battle Awareness), and not Spellscarred, Dhampyr, etc.? Now, if this was a home game, I wouldn't have any problem with someone trying to do this. All in all, it's a neat little trick that can be done, I wouldn't say it's overpowering, and it requires eight levels to really get going. As you said, it's fun to do this! Of course, the problem here is that I have to make a ruling on that, and that's verboten in LFR. As a result, unless there's errata about this, it sure seems as though the background disallows the particular setup you have. Which is definitely too bad, because I could have used this to make my bugbear garotte specialist dhampyr something other than a bard, since I'd like to use my Bugbear Strangler miniature more often than I do...you know, when they make bugbears a playable race. It's only a matter of time... A non-class specific multiclass feat refers to the Novice/Acolyte/Adept power feats. They are generic multiclass feats. Whereas Net Training and Battle Awareness are specific. The wording of windrise ports is meant to prevent people from taking Novice power twice to get 2 multiclass encounter powers.
#11 Dragon9 Jul 05, 2009 12:45:33	If a weaponmastery multiclass feat is the same as a class-specific multiclass feat, why did the writers put in the extra verbiage? If it was intended to mean "you can take two multiclass feats instead of one," why put in the confusing bits about classes? Isn't it more logical to think that "class-specific" means that they are referring to the class-based multiclass feats (such as Warrior of the Wild and Battle Awareness), and not Spellscarred, Dhampyr, etc.? Also remember that when they first came out, the only MC feats were for classes. However, since then more has been added to the mix (weapon mastery MC, Spellscarred, etc.). The Spellscarred feat actually calls itself a Multiclass Spellscared. You treat it as a class. The Weapon mastery feats came in Dragon magazine, so they were developed outside of the regular book material. However, they were kind enough to put the rules in there to say that you treat like any other MC feat. However, note that Dhampyr does not count as a MC feat. It is a Bloodline feat. You can only have one bloodline feat, but it does not keep you from taking a MC feat. So you could be a MC fighter dhampyr.
#12 ibixat Jul 05, 2009 17:32:22	Hmmm, this character actually looks to be pretty viable, at 11th level they are +15 to hit on melee attacks, my rogue is only 17 at 11th with comparable gear. This is the build I'd consider at that level... Stormwarden just looked too fun with it's encounter burst 1 push 1, which with the rushing cleats, using the net to hit makes it a push 2 and prone + slow. A twin strike hit with both weapons against a target would be slide 4, prone and slowed. Thundertusk boar strike would be highly entertaining, first attack hits with trident and you ignore the push, second attack with net hits and pushes 2 then the hit twice effect is push 5 and they are prone and slowed. So a total push of 7 slow and prone. **edited, I had some errors with the slide from staggering being used with pushes, still fun build to try I think*** Build I'd like to try ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ====== Gladiator, level 11 Longtooth Shifter, Ranger, Stormwarden Build: Two-Blade Ranger Fighting Style: Two-Blade Fighting Style FINAL ABILITY SCORES Str 21, Con 14, Dex 18, Int 9, Wis 16, Cha 11. STARTING ABILITY SCORES Str 16, Con 13, Dex 15, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 10. AC: 24 Fort: 24 Reflex: 24 Will: 21 HP: 86 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 21 TRAINED SKILLS Nature +14, Acrobatics +14, Perception +14, Stealth +17, Athletics +17, Endurance +14 UNTRAINED SKILLS Arcana +4, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering +9, Heal +9, History +4, Insight +9, Intimidate +5, Religion +4, Streetwise +5, Thievery +9 FEATS Level 1: Two-Weapon Fighting Level 2: Binding Style Level 4: Battle Awareness Level 6: Polearm Momentum Level 8: Net Training Level 10: Weapon Expertise (Flail) Level 11: Weapon Expertise (Spear) POWERS Ranger at-will 1: Hit and Run Ranger at-will 1: Twin Strike Ranger daily 1: Jaws of the Wolf Ranger daily 5: Frenzied Skirmish Ranger daily 9: Attacks on the Run Ranger encounter 1: Two-Fanged Strike Ranger encounter 3: Thundertusk Boar Strike Ranger encounter 7: Claws of the Griffon Ranger utility 10: Hunting Party Ranger utility 2: Yield Ground Ranger utility 6: Weave Through the Fray ITEMS Shadowflow Drowmesh +3, Staggering Net +2, Vicious Trident +2, Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier), Rushing Cleats (heroic tier), Dwarven Throwers (heroic tier), Periapt of Wisdom +3, Healer's Sash (paragon tier) ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
#13 tyweise Jul 06, 2009 8:47:49	Hmm. Even though Clearing the Ground requires 2 weapons, I don't think you'd count as using both for any extraneous purposes. So, if you're "using the net to hit" you couldn't use polearm momentum to knock them prone after the push. Likewise if you use the spear to hit, you could knock them down but wouldn't slow them.
#14 ibixat Jul 06, 2009 9:08:04	yeah I forgot to edit out that part, you'd be able to choose, push 2 and slow or push 2 and prone, but not both. I think you'd also want to get cleats and eventually the ring of ramming so you can push 3 so you can even get the polearm momentum effect of prone (barring their saving) against dwarves.
#15 tyweise Jul 06, 2009 15:27:27	Damn, dirty dwarves! :D
#16 ibixat Jul 06, 2009 15:56:31	Hmmmm, though Push 2 and slow combined with those gloves that make it take an extra square of movement to move next to you would be pretty spiffy together. Push 2 prone would allow them to stand and charge you even with gloves Push 2 slow they could try to close distance and get stopped at 1 square out and not be able to charge you.