I know where they came from , and how they came about being in the builder, the question though is since the 1.9 RPGA CCG say AV2 is legal 8/2009, and we are now in 8/2009 and the character builder, a legal rules source says these items are from source "Adventurer's Vault 2", do we have a right to disallow them at a table just because we know the origin and the CCG, Compendium and Character builder all show them as legal as written.
If you bring the compendium up and search for the items the source is "Adventurer's vault 2" if you click the link for the adventurer's vault 2 offered by the compendium it takes you to a page on wotc's site for the av2 with a release date of "august 2009"
The only thing I could see in the CCG that helps is the line under what you need as a player...
"Any other player resources you want (see below)" this is listed as what I need that to create the character, but does that mean also that I can't take feats and powers from divine power when I have the character builder until I've gone and purchased the book myself already? What about the mini's power cards powers, I can't use those unless I bought the mini pack that had them?
Anyway, it boils down to mostly, I'm playing devil's advocate here. I know they aren't supposed to be legal, but kind of like a lot of things, what was intended and what ended up on paper (pdf?) doesn't quite match up.
They're rules sources, but not player resources. The tattoos have to appear in a player resource first. The CB can ONLY be referenced when a rules dispute(about D&D, not RPGA rules) crops up.
well, according to the rules sources Character builder and Online Compendium, they HAVE appeared in a player resource, the adventurer's vault 2, release date, August 2009. Nevermind that the real release date hasn't happened yet, because if I had a copy of AV2 in my hands right now the CCG would allow me to use it.
You really are skirting the point of my post though, every argument you have against why they may be legal is true, but does nothing to counter the fact that given the resources we are told to use, they appear as legal items at this time. Even the source of the items in the character builder when you go to the restrictions tab under campaigns lists the source as "Adventurer's vault 2" not av2 playtest etc, a book which at this time is listed as released if you go by wotc's website.
If a player were to look up items in the character builder, see the source of said item as AV2, look at the compendium, see it as AV2, click the link, see it's release date of august 2009, check the CCG and see the AV2 legal date of august 2009, what in any of those steps tells them that the item was from a playtest in dragon that never got published in a compiled version and that the full AV2 has not been released yet. What would even prompt them to think they were from a dragon non-compiled article since there is no indication in any listing of these items that that is where the came from.
Nothing.
So yes, *I* know they aren't meant to be legal yet, but I can't see how the rules of the campaign show they aren't at this time, because the documentation shows that they ARE legal right now.
You and I know that AV2 hasn't released yet but that doesn't mean anything because you and I are not legal rules sources either =)
Same with the Martial Power 2 and Primal Power playtests.
The AV2 playtest was never compiled in Dragon. The tattoos aren't legal until the AV 2 is released.
Same with the Martial Power 2 and Primal Power playtests.
I know this is what is intended, but it's not how it was written down. Show me on an official rules source the release date for av2 that is a future date and I'll stop questioning it. But if a person at my table at gencon has an item which all current legal rules sources say came from the av2, I can't honestly say that the rules support not allowing it at this time.. The spirit of the rules yes, the written rules, no.
Basically, according to all sources, AV2 is "released" nevermind that you can't get it in stores yet, august2009 is already here.
The fact that something that is not AV2 says that something is from AV2 does not make that so - by definition, something which has AV2 as its source can only exist once AV2 exists. Which is not yet.
The CB does not tell you what you can or cannot use. The CCG says you can use things from AV2 - and when AV2 is released, that will be true. Until then, these items do not exist in any source on the list in the CCG.
That's not (just!!) applying the obvious intent of the rules, it's applying logic to the sum of the wording of the rules as well.
AV2 does not exist.
The fact that something that is not AV2 says that something is from AV2 does not make that so - by definition, something which has AV2 as its source can only exist once AV2 exists. Which is not yet.
The CB does not tell you what you can or cannot use. The CCG says you can use things from AV2 - and when AV2 is released, that will be true. Until then, these items do not exist in any source on the list in the CCG.
That's not (just!!) applying the obvious intent of the rules, it's applying logic to the sum of the wording of the rules as well.
How should a player know AV2 exists or doesn't exist. Do they have to own it themselves?
Release dates on wotc's site are a month, not a date. So at some point August 2009 means it exists and at another point august 2009 means it doesn't exist yet.
I'm sorry if the point I'm making is lost but you can't argue that the book is not released yet without showing the release date of the book as being a point in time in the future, you can't do that with officially published dates for the book.
I think that if someone wishes to use a rules item before the entirety of a book is added to the CB and Compendium then they do have to own the book - or be able to borrow it from someone else. The patch notes show what is added on each update, and a book due out in August is not going to be added before the first Tuesday of September, which is something which CB users ought to be aware of.
Your entire argument is based on using the CB/Compendium as a source for the rules-items, and anyone who intends to do that needs to keep aware of what the status of the items in the CB is, because it is clear that - the D&D Championship aside - the legal source for a rules-item is the book or magazine or card it is published in/on, not the CB.
Well, there's always this listing showing the date of release of new products: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4dnd/calendar
Thank you, finally someone showing a page on wotc's website with a specific date for AV2, that can be referenced showing that the product is not out yet. The official product page doesn't list that date, and were a person to look for it that wouldn't be an obvious place to check. "Yes, I should check the editorial calendar for Dragon and Dungeon to see the release date of a book" but at least it's something showing a specific date instead of just a month, allowing a person to point at it and say, that's not a legal source yet.
I think Pedr gets a
for showing it's not legal, instead of just saying "because it's not"Thanks Pedr, that was what I was looking for.
(Doesn't solve the issue, but I suspect it's an explantion.)
AV2 does not exist.
Of course it exists. I don't have it in my hands, but with the release date so close, I'm quite certain that at least one finished product exists.
The CCG could quite easily have omitted dates altogether and just stated that the books were legal upon release, as it did with the compiled Dragon Magazine and CB Debut Content. The fact that it lists dates indicates that the dates are what is important, not the release of the product.
According to the CCG, as of August 1, 2009, all material found in AV2 is legal for player use in LFR. If some error causes the books to be pulled back, reprinted and re-released in September, that does not change the fact that the book is legal for use in August.
Now, a reasonable question is how one can show that the item they want to use is actually found within AV2, to which we point to the Compendium and the Character Builder.
If the listing of those two sources as rules sources has any meaning whatsoever, it has to be that when those rules sources list a rule and cite it to a legal player resource, a player is allowed to use it.
Adding a requirement that you cannot use a rules source unless you have the actual player resource in hand not only has no basis in the CCG, it makes the very idea of a rules source meaningless, so that has to be rejected.
Adding a requirement that you cannot use a rules source unless you have the actual player resource in hand not only has no basis in the CCG, it makes the very idea of a rules source meaningless, so that has to be rejected.
While I agree that there is no rule requiring possession of the printed player resource, except for the General Rules which pretty much need to be considered ineffectual through desuetude by now, I nevertheless disagree with the premise behind the statement I've quoted.
"Rules source" is best interpreted as: "location which contains rules", rather than "location which contains rules-items". To say "the text of rules in the Compendium can be used and, if they are the most up to date, must be used" is not in any way answering the question "What things can I choose for my character."
The fact that the Character Builder contains things which it says come from AV2 does not, in fact, mean that they do come from AV2. Whether or not something is in AV2 is not a 'rule'. An item is not a 'rule' (the text which tells you how the item works is). We do not know whether the CB is accurate until AV2 is released. In addition, items which were in the playtest but which are not printed in the book will remain in the CB at least until the first Tuesday of September. Should there be items like this, it would not be sensible to say that something is available because the CB says it is in AV2, then on the day that AV2 is released say that it now is not available because it is not in AV2. It would also not be sensible to say that something is available until the first Tuesday in September because the CB says it is in AV2 even though it is not. The only sensible conclusion is to say that whether or not something is actually in AV2 is what determines whether that item is available by virtue of the fact that AV2 is on the list of player resources. We do not know that until the book is released, and we cannot rely on the CB to tell us ever as mistakes in the CB do not affect availablility - and we certainly cannot expect the CB to be accurate about AV2 until the first Tuesday in September. Between the release of the book and that date, the only way to know what is in AV2 is to look in the book, as nothing else is going to tell us.
The CCG could quite easily have omitted dates altogether and just stated that the books were legal upon release, as it did with the compiled Dragon Magazine and CB Debut Content. The fact that it lists dates indicates that the dates are what is important, not the release of the product.
According to the CCG, as of August 1, 2009, all material found in AV2 is legal for player use in LFR.
Just to split hairs... ;)
It doesn't say as of August 1st. There is no day listed. It just says August. Upon book release is just as valid an interpretation as August 1st.
If your players insist that they can use content from Adventurer's Vault 2, let them know you will be happy to allow it as soon as they can produce a copy of the book. ;)
I think I had heard it will be on sale at Gencon actually, so maybe there is no point in worrying about it afterall =P
Thank you, finally someone showing a page on wotc's website with a specific date for AV2, that can be referenced showing that the product is not out yet.
I guess the fact that they release new books on the third Tuesday of each month means nothing? :P It's pretty easy to figure out the date. Just look at a calendar! ;)
I guess the fact that they release new books on the third Tuesday of each month means nothing? :P It's pretty easy to figure out the date. Just look at a calendar! ;)
That is learned knowledge, not published knowledge though Dragon9, The editorial calendar is the best resource for the release dates, which is fine by me.
I plan to see if I can pick up the book early on Thursday and go from there =P
I guess the fact that they release new books on the third Tuesday of each month means nothing? :P
Yes, it does mean nothing actually. Plenty of people can buy it before the third Tuesday. And plenty of people can't even find it after the third Tuesday. The third Tuesday is an estimate at best ;)
If your players insist that they can use content from Adventurer's Vault 2, let them know you will be happy to allow it as soon as they can produce a copy of the book. ;)
Well you don't have to own a book to use items from that book ;)
(the above two comments aren't really that serious ;))
That is learned knowledge, not published knowledge though Dragon9,
Au contrare! (I know I probably spelled that wrong) I remember reading at the start of 4e they announced their plans to always have book releases on the 3rd Tuesday of the month. I read it. I didn't extrapolate it.
If you can get the book/data early - congrats, use the content.
(Of course, as a reminder, SVCL or not - I'm still a nobody, and my opinions officially count for zilch).
The data in the CB currently is not data from AV2, despite what the CB says. It is data from the AV2 playtest and unless you also have access to the book there's no way of knowing whether it is in AV2 or not.
So - since the only legal way to get at the data in AV2 is to read the book, I think it's fair to require people to actually have the book to use the items, until such point as the information is put into the CB/Compendium.
How should a player know AV2 exists or doesn't exist. Do they have to own it themselves?
Owning a copy is a pretty good way to establish it's existence. Whether it's *necessary* is different from whether it's *sufficient*.
its a good book as rings get a lot of love but some areas dont have as many new items as i thought they would.
Personally, I think it's baloney that people can get away with just a D&Di subscription to have legal characters. If a player doesn't have a book, they shouldn't have access to the options in that book. It's not really fair for me, who buys all the books in support of WotC, when another player comes in with just a printed character sheet plus cards and says they don't buy the books but they *have* the books :: wink, wink :: on PDF.
As a LFR DM, I was hoping I could use that to stop some of the pirating ("You don't have this book? Then this character isn't LFR legal.") but since the Character Builder is a rules source, there goes that dream.
Owning a copy is a pretty good way to establish it's existence.
That's what I told the table I was playing at. Only my copy of AV2 was the special edition, invisible to all but the most discerning role players and character optimizers.
It didn't matter in the end as the book was available for sale at wotc's booth during the con.
Well, sort of...they had 100 copies per day for sale. So, unless you got to the WotC booth early in the day, you were going to be out of luck.
The interesting thing was that in the one LFR game I got to play, one of the treasure bundles was any magic armor, weapon or implement of 7th level or lower from a legal source (!). (Yeeha! Defensive Staff +2!) And when I offered it to the other players at my table at the end, they all turned it down because they didn't think they should use it until they owned a copy. All four of 'em! Well, three of them were in the same family and kinda deferred to dad, and the son there actually took gold for his wizard because he's saving up for something specific, but still, brought a tear to my eye.