Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 gadren Jun 18, 2009 23:33:37	So, Eberron has given us Master Crafter. Which means your Artificer character, or character who MCed into artificer, can create items of your level+int modifier. This opens up ALOT of options. How do you plan on exploiting it the most?
#2 telvin3d Jun 19, 2009 0:14:32	Well I for one forsee lots of high INT characters MCing for a couple levels and then retraining. That said, I don't have the EPG yet so I can't comment on the specifics of the power. Is this still use the Ritual Cater feat? If so, as of CCG 1.9, you could have the Artificer making items for other characters.
#3 gadren Jun 19, 2009 0:17:37	Well I for one forsee lots of high INT characters MCing for a couple levels and then retraining. That said, I don't have the EPG yet so I can't comment on the specifics of the power. Is this still use the Ritual Cater feat? If so, as of CCG 1.9, you could have the Artificer making items for other characters. Yes, it only applies to items made with Enchant Magic Item ritual.
#4 telvin3d Jun 19, 2009 0:27:05	Well, as of 1.9 you can have other characters cast rituals for you as long as you pay the cost.
#5 gadren Jun 19, 2009 0:28:13	Well, as of 1.9 you can have other characters cast rituals for you as long as you pay the cost. And provide a ritual scroll...
#6 ughman Jun 19, 2009 2:34:20	I think you're missing something here with that feat. In a home game, loot is a lot more malleable. The group can pool resources and deal with stuff as needed. In this setting, it's a lot more reasonable to chuck out, say, 21,000 gold pieces at level 10 to make a level 14 item for someone. In LFR, I'm fairly sure a level 10 character will not have made 21,000 gp in their whole career. Still, if you do have the money, I suppose you can pick up the feat, make the item, then retrain out. (As it'd be a WHILE before you could afford another super-expensive item.) I'm not saying Master Crafter isn't a cool feat; it is. I'm just saying it's value is greatly diminished in LFR by the nature of the campaign.
#7 JohnLynch Jun 19, 2009 5:00:55	Yeah I'm not seeing much use for this in LFR. Assuming you always play high and always take gold, it will take you 7 games to get to Level 4. You'll end up with 1,225 gp, which is enough for a level 5 item. Not exactly worth an entire feat IMO.
#8 Kurald_Galain Jun 19, 2009 5:45:10	Yeah I'm not seeing much use for this in LFR. Assuming you always play high and always take gold, it will take you 7 games to get to Level 4. You'll end up with 1,225 gp, which is enough for a level 5 item. Not exactly worth an entire feat IMO. I concur. The way to get over-leveled items is to simply pick them as treasure bundles; you generally don't have enough money to buy (or craft) an item of your level, let alone an item above your level.
#9 JohnduBois Jun 19, 2009 8:14:32	The only benefit I'm seeing is the ability to get a weapon/armor/neck slot with a higher plus earlier than the released adventures would allows. For example, if the 11-14 adventures don't have any +4 items (and given what I know from playtesting and talking to admins, we should not expect to see any in the 11-14 mods), then Master Crafter would let your 11th level artificer (who hopefully has an INT of 20 by 11th level) get a +4 weapon before anyone else does.
#10 gadren Jun 19, 2009 9:26:04	You guys are forgetting that you can enhance items you got as bundle items. So, say you want a +2 cunning dagger. You get a +2 weapon bundle, and then you only have to pay the difference between a +2 dagger and a +2 cunning dagger.
#11 JohnduBois Jun 19, 2009 9:34:21	You guys are forgetting that you can enhance items you got as bundle items. So, say you want a +2 cunning dagger. You get a +2 weapon bundle, and then you only have to pay the difference between a +2 dagger and a +2 cunning dagger. True, but that's a feature of Enchant Magic Item in general. The benefit of using Master Crafter for that feature is minimal, especially with the growing number of "pick one" bundles out there.
#12 bgibbons Jun 19, 2009 9:34:25	The only benefit I'm seeing is the ability to get a weapon/armor/neck slot with a higher plus earlier than the released adventures would allows. I would be surprised to see this, because of price scaling. An average LFR PC will have received about 8350 gp by the time they hit 11th level. By this time, they could have been finding 13th level magic items in modules, but at 17,000 gp, even if they managed to earn double the average amount of gold, would be hard-pressed to make them. Even upgrading doesn't help much, as turning a +3 magic weapon into a +4 magic weapon would cost 36,000 gp, and upgrading weapons with properties would be even more expensive due to price scaling. The best case scenario I can see with this feat is that it could let a PC locked into upgrading items (for example, a PC whose build is dependent on using a pact bow, flaming weapon or uncommon implement type) upgrade his items when the upgraded version is still Level+1, or maybe all the way up to Level+2 or +3 if he's very lucky, instead of waiting until it's Level+0. Sure, if campaign staff screw up and release a module which allows PCs to gain substantially more gold than they should, that might temporarily create some imbalance, but in and of itself, this feat has little potential for problems. Indeed, there's not much you can do with this feat you can't do in the status quo--CCG v. 1.9 allows you to have another PC perform the EMI ritual for you if you provide everything. The only benefit of doing this would be that the ritual keys off of the level of the caster, so instead of a 7th level PC taking Master Crafter to make a 9th level item, he could just as easily buy a 175 gp scroll and have a 9th level PC perform it for him. This is one of those feats that looks on paper like it has game-breaking potential, but that potential is unlikely to materialize in practice.
#13 JohnduBois Jun 19, 2009 9:39:55	This is one of those feats that looks on paper like it has game-breaking potential, but that potential is unlikely to materialize in practice. While I disagree with some of the other things mentioned in this reply, this. Absolutely this. This feat likely provides less benefit that most other feats out there (hence, my 11th level artificer not having it). If we want to talk about artificer feats being powerful or out of scale, we can talk about the "the paladin prepays a surge so that the strikers can split 60 temps between them" Enhanced Resistive Formula :P
#14 Kurald_Galain Jun 19, 2009 10:00:27	The only benefit I'm seeing is the ability to get a weapon/armor/neck slot with a higher plus earlier than the released adventures would allows. I seriously doubt you'd have the gold for that. Even then, if you want to spend a feat on +1 to-hit, you can simply grab Weapon Expertise which does not require you to spend all your gold on it.
#15 gadren Jun 19, 2009 10:08:56	True, but that's a feature of Enchant Magic Item in general. The benefit of using Master Crafter for that feature is minimal, especially with the growing number of "pick one" bundles out there. Yeah, but all the pick one bundles are worthless compared to "real" bundes, because they have to be an item of your level or lower. (As opposed to four above your level or lower.)
#16 ibixat Jun 19, 2009 18:56:08	Yeah, but all the pick one bundles are worthless compared to "real" bundes, because they have to be an item of your level or lower. (As opposed to four above your level or lower.) Don't be so sure that all of them will remain pick one item your level or lower, they could just as easily be pick an item your level +1 or +2.. the pick any item was probably intentionall set at just your level at first to make sure it wasn't crazy to do it.
#17 Dragon9 Jun 20, 2009 12:20:23	Yeah, but all the pick one bundles are worthless compared to "real" bundes, because they have to be an item of your level or lower. (As opposed to four above your level or lower.) I wouldn't call them worthless. Many non-enhancement items retain their usefulness later on. My dwarven fighter could still be just as happy at Epic tier wearing Dwarven Greaves (and possibly picking them if he hadn't gotten them by then). Negating forced movement is just as useful then as it is at level 7 (which is the level the item is). No, a +1 weapon isn't goign to be as useful. That's why I specified non-enhancement bonus items. Even some the tiered items are still useful in their lower power levels.
#18 ughman Jun 20, 2009 13:44:49	Actually upon further thought, there is another way to make the feat more useful at epic at least. There are some epic destinies specify you cut a ritual's component cost in half (Elf High Mage comes to mind, and I'm fairly sure there are others). I'm now thinking mixing that feat with one of those destinies would qualify as the "best use" of master crafter, but I don't believe we'll see it for a while if it's even allowed in the long term.
#19 josephkell Jun 20, 2009 19:24:47	I have yet to be able to afford a magic item of my level. Not sure how valuable being able to make something level + Int would be. Unless we start seeing Residuum bundles... Wait, does Enchant Magic Item actually require Residuum? Or just Alchemical Reagents equal to the value of the item (or difference or whatever)?
#20 ibixat Jun 21, 2009 2:10:39	Eladrin Artificer/High Elf mage with a ritualist ring... I wonder how those two "half cost ritual" effects stack, does it actually make it 1/4. That is a cheap item for sure.
#21 tyweise Jun 22, 2009 9:58:05	True, but that's a feature of Enchant Magic Item in general. The benefit of using Master Crafter for that feature is minimal, especially with the growing number of "pick one" bundles out there. What it does is make the gold cost of it actually feasible in LFR. Instead of having to spend 17k on a level 13 item like that +2 cunning weapon, you only need to spend 8k if you've got a +2 magic weapon to start with. Sure, you could wait til you're level 13 and take it with an "any item your level" bundle (most if not all of which I've seen are limited to PHB's, so the ability to get something from AV is by itself worthwhile.) But now you could potentially get that item 4 levels earlier, assuming you can make 8k gold by level 9. And isn't the ability to get a specific item a few levels earlier than you normally could the entire point of the ability?
#22 Dragon9 Jun 22, 2009 21:57:11	Wait, does Enchant Magic Item actually require Residuum? Or just Alchemical Reagents equal to the value of the item (or difference or whatever)? There is no Residuum only restriction on EMI. So residuum or alchemical reagents will work.
#23 gadren Jun 22, 2009 23:47:52	Of course, what I'm really hoping for is that we'll get a mod with a rust monster that I can exploit with this feat, lol... Now that I think about it, are you allowed to put a rust monster in a MYRE mod?
#24 JohnLynch Jun 23, 2009 0:16:23	Now that I think about it, are you allowed to put a rust monster in a MYRE mod? HA! You've just found yet another way to completely twink out disposing of items up to a certain level. Of course, nothing was really stopping people from cheating in the first place.
#25 kinevon Jun 23, 2009 1:53:04	Now that I think about it, are you allowed to put a rust monster in a MYRE mod? Don't see why not, as long as the challenge level is right for the module. Only place I have seen them used, so far, was in a 5th level adventure, but there were two of them and 2 other monsters in the encounter, so it might be possible to squeeze one or two into a 1-4 module, at least at high tier....
#26 gadren Jun 23, 2009 2:08:25	Don't see why not, as long as the challenge level is right for the module. Only place I have seen them used, so far, was in a 5th level adventure, but there were two of them and 2 other monsters in the encounter, so it might be possible to squeeze one or two into a 1-4 module, at least at high tier.... Hahahaha. Wow, that is totally awesome. That makes this EASILY abusable, if you are close with the GMs in your area.
#27 kinevon Jun 23, 2009 3:28:25	Hahahaha. Wow, that is totally awesome. That makes this EASILY abusable, if you are close with the GMs in your area. If you are really close, and the GM has a moral code so flexible, why stop there? Play a MYRE1-1 with mounds of gold. No XP, but full gold. That way, you can get really above the curve gold-wise.
#28 gomeztoo Jun 23, 2009 3:41:00	I don't get the discusison. Regardelss of PP, if you carft something in LFR, you still only create something of your level or less. This limit also applies if someone else casts it for you: your level sets the limit, not theirs.
#29 kinevon Jun 23, 2009 4:53:59	I don't get the discusison. Regardelss of PP, if you carft something in LFR, you still only create something of your level or less. This limit also applies if someone else casts it for you: your level sets the limit, not theirs. Check out the Eberron Player's Guide, in the legal for LFR feats. There is one of those feats that allows an Artificer, and, presumably, someone with the Artificer MC feat, to craft an item using EMI that is up to their level + Int mod, rather than just their level. At present, the feat is legal, so the effect of that feat would be legal. If you have a character option that allows you to create items of a higher level than your character, you may also purchase items of the higher level specified as long as you have access to the items. In addition, you cannot permanently alter another player’s magic item (or other equipment) in any fashion. You can, however, cast rituals (including Enchant Item or Transfer Enchantment) for a another player’s character if that character can provide your character with the ritual scroll and pay for the cost of the casting. Huh. Talk about contradictory... I think one part or another of THAT section needs to be fixed. However, with the above parts of the CCG, all from page 10, it might be possible for that 10th level Artificer (with Int 20) in your party, to create a 15th level item for the 7th level party member. Assuming that the 7th level party member had enough money and ritual components for a scroll of EMI and the cost of the 15th level item...
#30 gomeztoo Jun 23, 2009 6:08:34	No, he can't: If you have a character option that allows you to create items of a higher level than your character, you may also purchase items of the higher level specified as long as you have access to the items. So granted, an artificer may, apparently, buy an item higher than his level, but he can't buy it for someone else. He can cast the spell, but if it is for another character, that character has to pay for it and so it is limited by its own (unmodified) level.
#31 sithobi1 Jun 23, 2009 14:40:17	You can, however, cast rituals (including Enchant Item or Transfer Enchantment) for another player’s character if that character can provide your character with the ritual scroll and pay for the cost of the casting. You can cast it for someone else. Paying for the ritual != buying the item.
#32 gomeztoo Jun 23, 2009 14:54:07	Yes, it is, as per the CCG1.9. Casting the ritual equals buying the item.
#33 Istaran Jun 23, 2009 16:05:36	No, he can't: So granted, an artificer may, apparently, buy an item higher than his level, but he can't buy it for someone else. He can cast the spell, but if it is for another character, that character has to pay for it and so it is limited by its own (unmodified) level. Yes, it is, as per the CCG1.9. Casting the ritual equals buying the item. Can you give a quote for this? As far as I've seen, there is nothing in the CCG that says "casting the ritual equals buying the item", only that there are specific rules with similar results. (You can't buy above your level unless you can enchant above your level.) The new rule allowing another PC to cast EMI on your stuff is nearly meaningless unless it allows a PC with a higher EMI level to cast it for a PC with a lower EMI level (that somehow has the gold required). Or at least it's meaningless until epic, when the discounts start showing up. Since a scroll is specifically required, if your level is the limiting factor then anything another PC could do for you with EMI or Transfer Enchantment you could already do for yourself by simply using the scroll.
#34 gomeztoo Jun 24, 2009 0:21:56	Using the same quote, but bolded out another bit: If you have a character option that allows you to create items of a higher level than your character, you may also purchase items of the higher level specified as long as you have access to the items. In LFR, the ritual simply allows you, rules-wise, to purchase (buy) items. Gomez
#35 gadren Jun 24, 2009 1:24:41	Using the same quote, but bolded out another bit: In LFR, the ritual simply allows you, rules-wise, to purchase (buy) items. Gomez I'm sorry Gomez, I'm really trying to, but I just have not been able to follow your logic in your posts. Is it just me?
#36 kinevon Jun 24, 2009 2:09:39	In LFR, the ritual simply allows you, rules-wise, to purchase (buy) items. No, your logic falls flat. It doesn't say you must buy them instead of make them, it says you may also buy them as well as make them. Doesn't say you have to buy them instead of make them, but you have the option to buy as well as make. So, the rules loophole is still in the air. Besides, it ignores the effects of a mixed-level adventuring party. Say a party with a Fighter 7 and a Wizard 10. Both can play a 7-10 module, and the Wizard has a chance at having the Ritual Caster feat. Is there anything in the rules as written that would prevent the Fighter from supplying a Ritual Scroll of Enchant Magic Item and 5,000 GP worth of appropriate components to the Wizard for him to use EMI to create a 10th level item for the Fighter?
#37 gomeztoo Jun 24, 2009 2:18:55	You can only create items that you could purchase. Enchant Magic Item and Brew Potion are rituals that allow you to create items. If your character could normally purchase an item (see “Treasure and Rewards”), you can create it with these rituals. You can always create items at the end of the adventure, and depending on what the DM allows, you might be able to create items at the beginning or during the adventure as well. The intention is fairly obvious: you can buy what you can create, or vice versa. The person who obtains (buys) the item sets the limits. Even if you let someone else cast the ritual, you then obtain it - or buy it - from them. That is my interpretation. But if you don't desire to follow it because you wish to cheese-weasel your character into a level +8 item, go ahead. I believe the intention is quite clear. Gomez
#38 kinevon Jun 24, 2009 3:10:14	Gomez, Not a cheese-weasel, there is a genuine group of rules issues because of a less than clearly worded addition to the CCG and the effects of both mixed-level parties and certain Artificer feats in the new Eberron book. The CCG is active. The Eberron Player's Guide is LFR legal. Even without the part in the CCG, an Artificer can still make magic items and/or alchemical items above his level. Add-in the part in the CCG where you can have an adventuring companion use the ritual for you, and you apparently can have items well above your level added, legally, to your inventory, and without having to use up a found item slot. Note that Artificer mention I used assumed an Artificer starting with an 18 Int, adding the two level bumps to Int for a 20 at 8th+ level, or a +5 Int mod. The feat says that the Artificer can add his Int mod to his level for using EMI. Therefore, the Artificer could create a Jagged weapon at 8th level.
#39 Istaran Jun 24, 2009 3:28:33	The intention is fairly obvious: you can buy what you can create, or vice versa. The person who obtains (buys) the item sets the limits. Even if you let someone else cast the ritual, you then obtain it - or buy it - from them. That is my interpretation. But if you don't desire to follow it because you wish to cheese-weasel your character into a level +8 item, go ahead. I believe the intention is quite clear. Gomez I'm not overly concerned with the option of buying higher level items since they're so hard to afford anyways. I'm concidering maybe bothering with it for an artificer build that makes magic ammunition for himself, but otherwise.. the cost is too much anyways. So for me it's more a question of knowing what the rule is for knowing's sake. That said, your interpretation seems to be rather counter-textual. Doubly so if we look at progression: old rules: You can buy what you can make. Making for yourself is pointless until epic. (Buying is always cheaper than making, no need for scroll/book.) No one can make things for you. new rules: You can buy what you can make. Making for yourself is pointless until epic unless you have the artificer feat and can afford overlevel items. Others can make things for you, but you must pay for a scroll every time (even when that doesn't make sense). Under your interpretation, the change in rules does nothing of use. You can already buy the scroll and cast it to make anything up to your level. You can already buy anything you could have made and save the cost of the scroll. I guess you could argue it's so in epic you can cash in on your ally's discounts. The ring could be lent to you in module anyways, but this allows the epic destiny to give discounts to everyone. So you think the discounts are available to everyone but the level bump is not? Or do you have some kind of interpretation that somehow explains why the component cost would be based on the eventual owner of the item rather than the caster? You say "Even if you let someone else cast the ritual, you then obtain it - or buy it - from them." but obtain and buy are very different terms. Buying implies you pay the person, which is flat out prohibited. You cannot pay the PC who casts the ritual. You can and must provide the residuum. And a level 1 character can buy as much residuum as he can afford. So you buy 1000 gp worth of residuum, 1 mundane longsword, and 1 scroll of Enchant Magic Item and lend them to your artificer friend. He then uses the consumables and returns your longsword, which is now a +1 Lightning Longsword. This was illegal before the change in rules (as another PC could not permanently alter your gear). It has been made legal by the change in rules. And there most emphatically is no rule saying you can't obtain higher level items. There used to be a your-level+4 limit on obtaining items from bundles, but now even that is lifted. You can plausibly obtain items up to your level +7. I've done so. You cannot use items above your level+4 now, so I had to wait 3 levels before I used it. The same would apply now to having up-leveled items created for you, if you somehow managed to buy enough residuum for your artificer friend to make a level +5 item. The change in rules allows Artificers to take on one of their traditional roles; arming the party with superior magic gear. However, it does have the odd side effect of allowing an 8 int Fighter to do the same for his lower level ally. (It would at least be a little more thematically appropriate if they didn't require the scroll when the caster has the ritual in his book. I actually suspect it will be clarified in that direction at some point honestly.) But really, in a worst case scenario we'd have something like: character picks up 5 level 10 items on the way from level 4-7. Upon becoming level 7 he sells them and uses the proceeds (plus some cash for the scroll) to have a level 10 ally make him a level 10 item that fits his theme. So now instead of having 5 suboptimal level 10 items, he has 1 optimal level 10 item. Only cost him 5 found item slots! Maybe he can save one by using all his found gold. In epic the various discounts change things a bit, as this means one PC at the table with a discount can share it with the whole table. Which is exactly what would happen in a home game, except that the party then breaks up and can recombine with other players. So if, say, a single epic character gets a discount in an area where 20 players have epic characters that mix and match to make parties, all 20 could benefit from it over time. But if a home game party paying half for all their enchanting is acceptable, why would a larger group paying half break the game?
#40 gomeztoo Jun 24, 2009 3:58:51	I am done with this thread.
#41 ughman Jun 24, 2009 4:26:38	Also from the CCG: "You cannot use or sell a magic item more than 4 levels above your character’s current level."
#42 kinevon Jun 24, 2009 4:59:46	Also from the CCG: "You cannot use or sell a magic item more than 4 levels above your character’s current level." Doesn't say you can't own one, somehow. Indeed, my 3rd level Fighter is waiting until he hits 4th level so he can sell off the scroll of Raise Dead he found in a module, and use the gold for other items, like putting his Lightning enhancement onto a ranged weapon when he upgrades his primary weapon...
#43 ibixat Jun 24, 2009 5:18:46	For the artificer EMI above level also means making Whetstones, Reagents and "other consumables" up to level +4. And since consumables cost 4% (1/25th) of a regular item their level this allows you to have the best possible consumables a party can use when an artificer is making them. I honestly believe that was the intent of the EMI ritual boost feat. Even in a home game I don't think wotc would ever think an artificer should have enough gold to make level 30 items by level 22/23 but they could make level 26/27 consumables for the party with no problems.
#44 Kurald_Galain Jun 25, 2009 5:00:29	For the artificer EMI above level also means making Whetstones, Reagents and "other consumables" up to level +4. And since consumables cost 4% (1/25th) of a regular item their level this allows you to have the best possible consumables a party can use when an artificer is making them. Yes, except that nearly all consumables are very much a money sink and really not all that effective. So this is hardly the "best" use of master crafter (or of your gold).
#45 Dragon9 Jun 25, 2009 7:32:01	Personally, i wold have been happy if they left out the option to have someone else cast it for you. Anyone can use a scroll. Just get one and make the thing yourself. It's not necessary for someone else to make the item. And yes, that gets rid of any loopholes where someone could possibly make a higher levelitem for the PC (if they had the gold of course) and skirts the issues where someone has a class feature that cuts the costs in half.
#46 Bigfluffylemon Jun 26, 2009 2:58:24	Of all the things to get bent out of shape about, this is a daft one. I'm normally the first to whinge when abuses start rearing their ugly heads, but to put it in context: A PC who plays high all the time and takes more gold at every adventure and never spent anything would arrive at level 10 with 8925 gold, by my calculations. The cost of a level 11 item is 9000 gold. The only way you're ever going to be able to afford a significantly above level item is to take high level bundles and sell them for gold, and even then that's not that profitable. A PC could realistically get one over-levelled item for the cost of a bundle slot and all the gold they've accumulated up to that point, and therefore be weaker than the PC who took an over-levelled item as a treasure bundle, used it, and spent their gold to buy other stuff. A 10th level PC who saved up all their gold for 10 levels and sold off other bundle items to buy a +3 radiant weapon a few mods before they could probably have found one anyway is not going to break anything. This is really a non-issue.
#47 gadren Jun 27, 2009 2:49:03	Of all the things to get bent out of shape about, this is a daft one. I'm normally the first to whinge when abuses start rearing their ugly heads, but to put it in context: A PC who plays high all the time and takes more gold at every adventure and never spent anything would arrive at level 10 with 8925 gold, by my calculations. The cost of a level 11 item is 9000 gold. The only way you're ever going to be able to afford a significantly above level item is to take high level bundles and sell them for gold, and even then that's not that profitable. A PC could realistically get one over-levelled item for the cost of a bundle slot and all the gold they've accumulated up to that point, and therefore be weaker than the PC who took an over-levelled item as a treasure bundle, used it, and spent their gold to buy other stuff. A 10th level PC who saved up all their gold for 10 levels and sold off other bundle items to buy a +3 radiant weapon a few mods before they could probably have found one anyway is not going to break anything. This is really a non-issue. I don't think anyone is saying it's an "issue" or getting worked up about it. I just wanted to know if anyone say particularly good opportunities with this feat.
#48 lucian_ravenclaw Jul 16, 2009 16:40:45	If you always play high, you would lose out on the max gold route... A 10th level item is worth more then the extra gold option... I'll look into the actual numbers and get back with details...