So, I made a character to start out my venture forth into the Living Forgotten Realms. I’d like to ask what people think of my character, to know if I’m screwing anything up drastically:
---
RACE: Minotaur [Dragon #369]
CLASS: Avenger [PHB2]
DEITY: Kelemvor
REGION: The Dalelands or Impiltur (haven’t decided: picking the most appropriate story choice)
ABILITY SCORES: Strength 10, Constitution 14, Dexterity 14, Intelligence 13, Wisdom 16, Charisma 10
TRAINED SKILLS: Perception, Religion, Stealth, Streetwise [From Avenger class]
FEATS: Vampiric Heritage [Dragon #371]
AT-WILL: Overwhelming Strike, Radiant Vengeance [Both Avenger]
ENCOUNTER: Angelic Alacrity [Avenger], Blood Drain [Dhampyr], Goring Charge [Minotaur]
DAILY: Aspect of Might [Avenger]
EQUIPMENT: Falchion, Holy Symbol, Cloth Armor
---
From what I can guess, this guy will be fairly effective at what he does (as a Striker). Overwhelming Strike allows him to do the square dance, Radiant Vengeance gives him a ranged power and temporary hit points. Both of those are at-will, so they’re his bread and butter. He is a Censure of Pursuit Avenger, so I picked Angelic Alacrity, and also Aspect of Might.
The falchion has a good proficiency +hit, and the high crit property looks good to me!
Typical battle might begin as such:
Throw down the Oath of Enmity as a minor action, then follow it up with Radiant Vengeance (as a ranged power) to get a few extra temporary hit points. Then, follow in with a Goring Charge. Beat on said fellow with your wam-bam-thank-you-ma’am’s, and if this is looking to be a tough battle- drop Aspect of Might and proceed to charge into other enemies.
Are there any holes in my plan thus far?
Also, the novelty of playing a Dhampyr Minotaur who works as an Avenger of the Church of Kelemvor has irony that I can’t stop but laugh at. Even moreso, I think of the idea of a Minotaur sneaking around, tip-toeing to assassinate some undead.
Also, the novelty of playing a Dhampyr Minotaur who works as an Avenger of the Church of Kelemvor has irony that I can’t stop but laugh at. Even moreso, I think of the idea of a Minotaur sneaking around, tip-toeing to assassinate some undead.
I don't recall the heading of the thread, but there was a very heated argument as to dhampyr worshipping Kelemvor. Personally I can see it go either way depending on a good back story, but there are those on the boards that say Kelemvor would never accept a dhampyr as a worshipper because they are too near undead.
First, allow me to state that I am very new to 4th Edition. I got my books the day they came out, but I was very discouraged from playing after looking through the books. I just simply thought the game was too boring. But for whatever the reason, I now think the game holds more potential than original thought. I’ve looked through all of the new books, and been very impressed with the mechanics and all that. I suppose getting used to something new was simply difficult.
So, I made a character to start out my venture forth into the Living Forgotten Realms. I’d like to ask what people think of my character, to know if I’m screwing anything up drastically:
---
RACE: Minotaur [Dragon #369]
CLASS: Avenger [PHB2]
DEITY: Kelemvor
REGION: The Dalelands or Impiltur (haven’t decided: picking the most appropriate story choice)
ABILITY SCORES: Strength 10, Constitution 14, Dexterity 14, Intelligence 13, Wisdom 16, Charisma 10
TRAINED SKILLS: Perception, Religion, Stealth, Streetwise [From Avenger class]
FEATS: Vampiric Heritage [Dragon #371]
AT-WILL: Overwhelming Strike, Radiant Vengeance [Both Avenger]
ENCOUNTER: Angelic Alacrity [Avenger], Blood Drain [Dhampyr], Goring Charge [Minotaur]
DAILY: Aspect of Might [Avenger]
EQUIPMENT: Falchion, Holy Symbol, Cloth Armor
---
From what I can guess, this guy will be fairly effective at what he does (as a Striker). Overwhelming Strike allows him to do the square dance, Radiant Vengeance gives him a ranged power and temporary hit points. Both of those are at-will, so they’re his bread and butter. He is a Censure of Pursuit Avenger, so I picked Angelic Alacrity, and also Aspect of Might.
The falchion has a good proficiency +hit, and the high crit property looks good to me!
Typical battle might begin as such:
Throw down the Oath of Enmity as a minor action, then follow it up with Radiant Vengeance (as a ranged power) to get a few extra temporary hit points. Then, follow in with a Goring Charge. Beat on said fellow with your wam-bam-thank-you-ma’am’s, and if this is looking to be a tough battle- drop Aspect of Might and proceed to charge into other enemies.
Are there any holes in my plan thus far?
Also, the novelty of playing a Dhampyr Minotaur who works as an Avenger of the Church of Kelemvor has irony that I can’t stop but laugh at. Even moreso, I think of the idea of a Minotaur sneaking around, tip-toeing to assassinate some undead.
A few things of note...with 10 strength, I wouldn't count of goring charge ever hitting since it is strength based. Second, with only 16 wisdom, your regular attacks will lack accuracy and damage as well (somewhat mitigated against your oath target, but still lower chances than some other avenger). Thirdly, with only 14 dex, you AC will be pitiful, so expect to get smacked around pretty much all the time. Also your bonus damage from censure of pursuit will be lame. While it's a hilarious character idea in concept, it's extraordinarily weak in practice.
Goring Charge is laughably weak and breaks so many design rules it is sad. It is a standard action (rather than a minor or no action like every other race) and it is strength only (rather than a having options like dragonborn and drow).
Also, all minotaur characters are automatically at a deficit due to lacking a bonus to defenses like warforged and goliaths. Why WotC chose to fail so bad when it came to minotaurs is beyond my understanding.
That's not to say they are unplayable. I have 3 minotaur characters myself. Just do not sign up to be a minotaur unless you are used to being the underdog. At least you're not as bad off as an orc.
Will the character be fun? Yes
Effective? No
Goring Charge is laughably weak and breaks so many design rules it is sad. It is a standard action (rather than a minor or no action like every other race) and it is strength only (rather than a having options like dragonborn and drow).
Weak? I knock enemies around like pinatas with it. It's not weak at all. It's Strength + 4 to hit, knocks an enemy prone, can be used during a charge instead of a melee basic attack, can be used (with a feat) to make OAs. I fail to see it's weakness. The d6 damage in heroic tier? It's primary function is to knock enemies prone.
Also, all minotaur characters are automatically at a deficit due to lacking a bonus to defenses like warforged and goliaths. Why WotC chose to fail so bad when it came to minotaurs is beyond my understanding.
They get +2 to AC when they charge. It's balanced with the other stuff they get (toughness due to STR/CON bonuses, attack when dropped, racioal power that knocks enemies prone, etc.).
That's not to say they are unplayable. I have 3 minotaur characters myself.
I love this.
"WotC dropped the ball. Minotaurs suck. That's why I have three of them as PCs!"Just do not sign up to be a minotaur unless you are used to being the underdog. At least you're not as bad off as an orc.
Underdog? Hardly. And the Orc hasn't gotten the PC race treatment yet, anyway. Apples and Oranges.
Will the character be fun? Yes
Effective? No
Not effective? My party running through SToS would take offense at that. My Minotaur Barbarian has pulled their fat out of the fire on more than one occasion. I have yet to have him drop to or below 0 hp. And that's with a concerted effort by enemies to take him down because he's bashing their skulls in and the Leader spending most of healing elsewhere.
I don't recall the heading of the thread, but there was a very heated argument as to dhampyr worshipping Kelemvor. Personally I can see it go either way depending on a good back story, but there are those on the boards that say Kelemvor would never accept a dhampyr as a worshipper because they are too near undead.
First and foremost Dhampyr ARE NOT UNDEAD in anyway they're not even half breeds either. In most cases a Dhamphyr results becuase say two hundred years ago that family had a member who became a full Vampire and this Vampire decided to sexually reproduce resulting in a half vampire. The half Vampire then continues to reproduce sexually with each new generation becoming less of a Vampire and more a human as time goes on. The end result is a Dhamphyr a LIVING CREATURE who out of the blue may start to develope certain traits like fangs and a thirst for blood. But just because you have fangs and a blood thirst does not mean you must feed on blood. There is an option for Dhamphyr that allows them to use their family's dark history as a weapon to up hold all that Kelemvor holds dear and that's the Deadstalker Paragon Path. This path's flavor text says the "The pc has made it his life's mission to destroy all undead where ever he may find such abominations". This is the path Kelemvor worshipers will need to follow if they want play a Damphyr it provides a lot of really good powers like the Daily Attack DEADEYE STRIKE it crits on an 18, deals 4[W], and it can be applied to Melee or Ranged Attacks. This is the path my own Paladin of Kelemvor has taken I see it as a reward for his service like "okay now your not just one of my random Paladins your a Deadstalker". Like Black Ops or Spec Forces the charactor walks into to a room full of the unliving and is the last one to leave every time.
A few things of note...with 10 strength, I wouldn't count of goring charge ever hitting since it is strength based. Second, with only 16 wisdom, your regular attacks will lack accuracy and damage as well (somewhat mitigated against your oath target, but still lower chances than some other avenger). Thirdly, with only 14 dex, you AC will be pitiful, so expect to get smacked around pretty much all the time. Also your bonus damage from censure of pursuit will be lame. While it's a hilarious character idea in concept, it's extraordinarily weak in practice.
Thanks to the Oath, point buying an 18 WIS is never worth it for an avenger. The +1 to hit becomes more marginal because of the way the dice probabilities fall. 16 Wis is absolutely fine.
As for AC, it will be poor at level 1, but don't forget the Avenger Armor of Faith feature. With a feat for improved armor and another for leather, that's +3 AC for two feats, which will give a more than adequate 18 AC (before levels and enhancements are factored in). I do suggest picking up leather prof at level 2 with this character.
As for goring charge being weak - rubbish. Ok, it sucks if you're not a Str based class, but if you have some Str, knocking prone on a charge is great. And the feat that allows you to use it on an OA is obscene. I would argue that minotaurs make the best earthstrength wardens of all because of goring charge, and they're pretty handy fighters and paladins too.
The Kelemvor Damphyr thing: it's perfectly allowed by the rules. RP wise it may be odd, but no-one can disallow it because of that.
Secondly, I threw around some stats. It's hard to believe what you can get when you're shifting a point here and a point there...I ended up with:
Str 14, Con 14, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8
Eliminated the need for Intelilgence: I realized that my Avenger wasn't going to be using Intelligence AT ALL, and Dexterity was far more valuable...the amount of squares moved and the additional point to my AC.
Strength was more valuable than Charisma: my Wisdom took care of the defenses, most of my skills- and even in role-playing, stick towards Mithras being more introvert and knowledgeable than likeable...so, I decided to make that my dump stat ;) The Strength gives my OA's a further bonus and my horn attack more effectiveness (a chance to hit).
Didn't lose much at all, in fact.
And I decided to settle on the Dalelands. The Zhent Headless Horseman is my characters arch-nemesis! :D Woo!
Wanted to thank people for their assistance. Further advice and input will not be ignored.
Okay, well...as for the role-play thing, it's only as fun as you make it. You can say that Kelemvor would never pick a Dhampyr...but are you Kelemvor? ;) People that say they know how a particular NPC would act...I don't necessarily agree with that. Your input? Valued. But I'm not heeding it.
Yeah, don't worry about it. While i fully expect thsi thread to explode into another battle over who would Kelemvor allow to follow him, there is no mechanical restriction on it, so go crazy.
Weak? I knock enemies around like pinatas with it. It's not weak at all. It's Strength + 4 to hit, knocks an enemy prone, can be used during a charge instead of a melee basic attack, can be used (with a feat) to make OAs. I fail to see it's weakness. The d6 damage in heroic tier? It's primary function is to knock enemies prone.
Do I really need to go on about why Goring Charge is bad?
First, it's a standard action. This is contrary to 4e racial design for a good reason. You should not have to choose between using your racial flavor power and using your class powers on a regular basis. Take a look at every other race in the game (dragonborn, drow, genasi, etc). All of their powers are non-standard actions. There are dozen better ways the flavor of a charging bull knocking people on their behinds could have been implemented.
Also (and this complaint is true for all racial attack powers not just Charging Gore) the attack bonus on Charging Gore just doesn't scale well enough. It will fall behind your other attacks. Of course this has already been brought up in any of the other "Expertise fails" threads.
They get +2 to AC when they charge. It's balanced with the other stuff they get (toughness due to STR/CON bonuses, attack when dropped, racioal power that knocks enemies prone, etc.).
Halflings get the same thing but better and then get +1 to two different defenses via their stat distribution. +AC vs OAs on charge attacks is not the same thing as a +NAD due to poor stat distribution.
I love this.
Underdog? Hardly. And the Orc hasn't gotten the PC race treatment yet, anyway. Apples and Oranges.
Well I'm a sucker who will play a concept regardless of it being inferior but I can't help looking at my characters and thinking, "Wow, he would just be better if he was anything but a minotaur".
It's irrelevant that orcs haven't gotten a PC write up yet. They are available for play now and they overall suck now.
Comparatively minotaurs aren't that bad. At least they have racial feats, paragon paths, and skill bonuses
Not effective? My party running through SToS would take offense at that. My Minotaur Barbarian has pulled their fat out of the fire on more than one occasion. I have yet to have him drop to or below 0 hp. And that's with a concerted effort by enemies to take him down because he's bashing their skulls in and the Leader spending most of healing elsewhere.
My comment about not being effective wasn't so much about minotaurs as it was about the OP's build. The minotaur thing was just a rant. The flaws in his build have already been mostly addressed and corrected. Of course he would still be better off if he was a warforged or a goliath. =P
Do I really need to go on about why Goring Charge is bad?
Yes, you do.
First, it's a standard action. This is contrary to 4e racial design for a good reason. You should not have to choose between using your racial flavor power and using your class powers on a regular basis. Take a look at every other race in the game (dragonborn, drow, genasi, etc). All of their powers are non-standard actions. There are dozen better ways the flavor of a charging bull knocking people on their behinds could have been implemented.
Big whoop. #1, there isn't a 4e design bible lying around whose first line is: Thou shalt not make racial abilities a standard action. #2, the power can only be used during a charge, so who cares if it's standard? You're already charging which is a standard action anyway. It gives you another option other than a melee basic attack (yes there can be other powers usable on a charge, and they usually fall into the Encounter or Daily categories as well). Heck, as a Barbarian it gives you a third option if you take Howling Strike which can also be used on a charge. Melee Basic Attack or Knock an Enemy prone isn't a life changing decision. In some cases I would argue that knocking prone on the charge is better since if you hit it sets up a nice AP situation once the enemy is prone, giving combat advantage.
Seriously, Goring Charge doesn't suck.
Also (and this complaint is true for all racial attack powers not just Charging Gore) the attack bonus on Charging Gore just doesn't scale well enough. It will fall behind your other attacks. Of course this has already been brought up in any of the other "Expertise fails" threads.
It doesn't scale that bad. As a Minotaur you're likely to be increasing Strength at every opportunity. So far it's only -1 from my weapon attacks. (+9 vs. +10) and that's with Weapon Expertise on my weapon and an 18 Str.
Halflings get the same thing but better and then get +1 to two different defenses via their stat distribution. +AC vs OAs on charge attacks is not the same thing as a +NAD due to poor stat distribution.
They get to strike when they get reduced to 0 hp, They get an offensive power that knocks enemies prone. +2 to AC vs. OAs when charging is flavorful for the Minotaur. They aren't hurting by not havign +1 in two different Non-AC defenses. if you have poor stat distribution in your build, that's not the fault of the lack of a racial defense bonus to NAD.
Well I'm a sucker who will play a concept regardless of it being inferior but I can't help looking at my characters and thinking, "Wow, he would just be better if he was anything but a minotaur".
Change the concept then. If it would be better as anythign but a minotaur, then why build it as a Minotaur? You can create a concept to be whatever you want.
It's irrelevant that orcs haven't gotten a PC write up yet. They are available for play now and they overall suck now.
It's entirely relevant. The Orc isn't "ready for prime time." The other option would have been to not provide a way to play an NPC race. If you play one, you go into knowing that it doesn't have an PC write up, and probably don't care that it doesn't have racial defense bonuses. It's like playing a Beta of a computer game and complaining about the bugs. I know players who play Orcs who would disagree with you, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
Comparatively minotaurs aren't that bad. At least they have racial feats, paragon paths, and skill bonuses.
If you are playing a Minotaur against type, then some of these may be an issue. Then again, a Minotaur Wizard is unlikely to be using Goring Charge in the first place. Since he's in the back of the group in combat, his defenses will be tested less as well. (if my experience with playing a Wizard is any indication)
Minotaurs are by no means weak when played to type. Then again you can say that about any race.
The minotaur thing was just a rant.
I figured as much.
Big whoop. #1, there isn't a 4e design bible lying around whose first line is: Thou shalt not make racial abilities a standard action. #2, the power can only be used during a charge, so who cares if it's standard? You're already charging which is a standard action anyway. It gives you another option other than a melee basic attack (yes there can be other powers usable on a charge, and they usually fall into the Encounter or Daily categories as well). Heck, as a Barbarian it gives you a third option if you take Howling Strike which can also be used on a charge. Melee Basic Attack or Knock an Enemy prone isn't a life changing decision. In some cases I would argue that knocking prone on the charge is better since if you hit it sets up a nice AP situation once the enemy is prone, giving combat advantage.
Seriously, Goring Charge doesn't suck.
This is exactly the problem. I shouldn't have to choose between using Goring Charge and Howling Strike in given turn. A dragonborn can breath and then charge. A drow can darkfire and then charge. Knocking a single target prone and doing 1d6+str is not that powerful. Why do minotaurs have to choose?
Earthsoul genasi knock enemies prone within burst 1 as a minor action. Dragonborn do 1d6+con to all enemies within blast 3 for a minor action. Both races can use any physical stats for their racial attack power.
Minotaurs get to do both of these to a single enemy as a standard action and they have to have a good strength the make use of it. Goring Charge is not useless but it is definitely not up to par.
It doesn't scale that bad. As a Minotaur you're likely to be increasing Strength at every opportunity. So far it's only -1 from my weapon attacks. (+9 vs. +10) and that's with Weapon Expertise on my weapon and an 18 Str.
It does scale that bad.
My minotaur warlord is +17 to hit with his melee powers. He is only +14 to hit with his Goring Charge. This will only get worse as you level.
Level 10 melee powers +17
(5 str, 5 level, 3 enhancement, 3 prof, 1 expertise)
Level 10 charging gore +14
(5 str, 5 level, 4 base)
Level 18 melee powers +24
(6 str, 9 level, 4 enhancement, 3 prof, 2 expertise)
Level 18 charging gore +21
(6 str, 9 level, 6 base)
Level 26 melee powers +32
(7 str, 13 level, 6 enhancement, 3 prof, 3 expertise)
Level 26 charging gore +28
(7 str, 13 level, 8 base)
They get to strike when they get reduced to 0 hp, They get an offensive power that knocks enemies prone. +2 to AC vs. OAs when charging is flavorful for the Minotaur. They aren't hurting by not havign +1 in two different Non-AC defenses. if you have poor stat distribution in your build, that's not the fault of the lack of a racial defense bonus to NAD.
Getting to strike for free when dropped is nifty. It's nothing to write home about but it's definitely not bad. A bonus to AC when charging is cool, I can't argue that. Other races get these things and they still get the full gamut of racial features that all races are entitled to.
The poor stat distrubution is in regards to the stats that the race provides. As a minotaur your defenses are permanently -1 from what they should be. A goliath or warforged copying your build will be exactly the same except one of their defenses will be +1.
Change the concept then. If it would be better as anythign but a minotaur, then why build it as a Minotaur? You can create a concept to be whatever you want.
My minotaurs are hardly playing against type. I have a minotaur fighter, minotaur barbarian, and minotaur warlord. I am entirely prepared to suck up being subpar in the name of flavor. It does not mean I will stop lobbying for improvements where imbalances exist. For the record, my the fighter is a tempest fighter who fights with spiked gauntlets even though the double sword/urgosh is mechanically superior is every single way.
It's entirely relevant. The Orc isn't "ready for prime time." The other option would have been to not provide a way to play an NPC race. If you play one, you go into knowing that it doesn't have an PC write up, and probably don't care that it doesn't have racial defense bonuses. It's like playing a Beta of a computer game and complaining about the bugs. I know players who play Orcs who would disagree with you, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
The entire point of a beta test is to find out what sucks/is bugged and complain until it gets fixed.
If you are playing a Minotaur against type, then some of these may be an issue. Then again, a Minotaur Wizard is unlikely to be using Goring Charge in the first place. Since he's in the back of the group in combat, his defenses will be tested less as well. (if my experience with playing a Wizard is any indication)
Minotaurs are by no means weak when played to type. Then again you can say that about any race.
See above.
My Gnoll Bloodrage Vigor Barbarian is fifth
Str 17
Con16
Dex16
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha14
Feats
Powerful Charge
Rising Fury (This combined with Swift Charge is pretty SWEET)
Improved Rageblood Vigor
Daily Attack powers
Bloodhunt Rage
Frost Wolf Rage (Gnolls are just begging for that daily attack power)
Utility
Primal Vitality
Encouter Powers
Swift Charge
Ferocious Charge
Blade Sweep
Avalanche Strike
At Will Powers
Howling Strike
Recuperating Strike
Weapon of choice +2 Vicious Heavy Flail (Two handed weapon) So my charactor can use it with Howling Strike. Three D6 + 11 and then should I drop someone I get to charge again for 3d6 + 13
This is exactly the problem. I shouldn't have to choose between using Goring Charge and Howling Strike in given turn. A dragonborn can breath and then charge. A drow can darkfire and then charge. Knocking a single target prone and doing 1d6+str is not that powerful. Why do minotaurs have to choose?
Knocking prone not that powerful? Tactically it is powerful. You're getting a power for free (i.e. not having to spend a power choice on it) that can do so 1/encounter. Not only that buy you can improve it with feats to allow you to do so as an OA (also very tactically sound), and push with it as well. Sure, my Barbarian can decide to use Howling Strike instead, and often I do. I have also been known to use Goring Charge, knock an opponent prone, spend an AP and hit a Rage or Avalanche Strike and taking the big bad guy down below bloodied in one turn. Then to top it off the rogue gets to go to town on the prone opponent as well as anyone else near and they all get CA as long as they go before the opponent does.
Not powerful? It is a very strong tactical option. If you don't see it then you aren't looking at it properly.
Earthsoul genasi knock enemies prone within burst 1 as a minor action. Dragonborn do 1d6+con to all enemies within blast 3 for a minor action.
Again, you're ignoring the fact that it's done on a charge. The action is irrelevant. You could change it to a minor action or to a free action and it wouldn't change anything about it. Every other racial power you have mentioned is a stand alone power. Now you could argue that it sucks because it isn't a stand alone power, although personally I like the extra choice on a charge.
Also: Earthshock - Does no damage, doesn't work against anything not touching the ground, it's Str+2 which is worse than Goring Charge. Dragonborn breath - also does 1d6, extra damage is always keyed off Con which is not one of their racial stats, its to hit is worse than Goring Charge. Darkfire - Equivalent in most ways (to-hit bonus and CA) but does no damage.
The only power I would possibly consider taking in place of Goring Charge would be Darkfire. And also consider that with a feat you can change the damage dice to d8s which gives it another advantage.
Minotaurs get to do both of these to a single enemy as a standard action and they have to have a good strength the make use of it. Goring Charge is not useless but it is definitely not up to par.
Well, I will agree to disgree with you on it. i find it better than a lot of racial abilities out there.
Getting to strike for free when dropped is nifty. It's nothing to write home about but it's definitely not bad.
Yeah, getting to attack for free is definitely a plus.
A bonus to AC when charging is cool, I can't argue that. Other races get these things and they still get the full gamut of racial features that all races are entitled to.
PC Races that get no bonuses to any defense score: Dragonborn, Dwarves, Elves, Half-Elf, Tiefling, some Genasi, Gnomes, Minotaurs, Half-Orcs, Shifters, Gnolls.
So that leaves us with Halflings, Eladrin, Humans, Warforged, most Genasi, Goliaths, and Devas as getting a defensive bonus as a racial feature.
Of those, Devas and Halflings are situational like the Minotaur (vs. Bloodied opponents and vs. OAs respectively) so we'll toss them out. So that leaves us 5 races that gain bonuses to a defense score (most of them Will).
So that's, what... 5 out of 17 races? Now, some of them gain some other defensive measure (DR vs. an energy type being the most common), but they're few in number also (2 Genasi types and Tieflings). That's 1/3 of the races. That doesn't make for a good argument that leaving it out is against 4e racial design methodology. It's actually more the norm than not.
Now if we are to count that as a defensive bonus (as i do) then it's 8 of 17 which is just shy of 1/2 the races. I discounted them in the previous paragraph since you stated it wasn't good enough to qualify.
The poor stat distrubution is in regards to the stats that the race provides. As a minotaur your defenses are permanently -1 from what they should be. A goliath or warforged copying your build will be exactly the same except one of their defenses will be +1.
As we've seen, it's more that as a Minotaur your defenses are "normal" whereas a Goliath or Warforged are outside the norm and get a +1 on Will. Yes, in the STR/CON races, the Minotaur is the odd man out. And frankly, i expect to see the Warforged get toned down come EPG release. (between the Living Construct keyword and their Resolve power they never die... especially when you put the Rep. App. on them)
The entire point of a beta test is to find out what sucks/is bugged and complain until it gets fixed.
"Complain" usually isn't the method used to report bugs in a beta.
As I said, you're entitled to your opinion, but I really think you're looking at things from the wrong angle. The whole "4e design philosophy" of bonuses to defenses is just plain wrong also. At best it's a 1 in 2 proposition, at worst it's a 1 in 3 proposition.
Anyway, I don't think we should derail the thread any more. :D Feel free to PM if you want to continue the discussion.
Knocking prone not that powerful? Tactically it is powerful. You're getting a power for free (i.e. not having to spend a power choice on it) that can do so 1/encounter. Not only that buy you can improve it with feats to allow you to do so as an OA (also very tactically sound), and push with it as well. Sure, my Barbarian can decide to use Howling Strike instead, and often I do. I have also been known to use Goring Charge, knock an opponent prone, spend an AP and hit a Rage or Avalanche Strike and taking the big bad guy down below bloodied in one turn. Then to top it off the rogue gets to go to town on the prone opponent as well as anyone else near and they all get CA as long as they go before the opponent does.
Not powerful? It is a very strong tactical option. If you don't see it then you aren't looking at it properly.
Knocking prone is useful. That isn't the problem. Charging Gore is subpar for the following reasons:
A) It's strength based only. This prevents any class that isn't strength based or at least strength secondary from using it. Does any other race have this problem?
B) It's a standard action. This drastically increases the power's opportunity cost and takes away from the minotaurs overall options. You should never have to choose between using your racial encounter power and doing other stuff with your standard action. No other race has this problem.
Is Charging Gore useful? Definitely, but it is still below where it should be as a racial encounter power.
Again, you're ignoring the fact that it's done on a charge. The action is irrelevant. You could change it to a minor action or to a free action and it wouldn't change anything about it. Every other racial power you have mentioned is a stand alone power. Now you could argue that it sucks because it isn't a stand alone power, although personally I like the extra choice on a charge.
Gnolls have a charging power too. It's not a standard action, just like every other race.
Also: Earthshock - Does no damage, doesn't work against anything not touching the ground, it's Str+2 which is worse than Goring Charge. Dragonborn breath - also does 1d6, extra damage is always keyed off Con which is not one of their racial stats, its to hit is worse than Goring Charge. Darkfire - Equivalent in most ways (to-hit bonus and CA) but does no damage.
The only power I would possibly consider taking in place of Goring Charge would be Darkfire. And also consider that with a feat you can change the damage dice to d8s which gives it another advantage.
Well, I will agree to disgree with you on it. i find it better than a lot of racial abilities out there.
Earth Shock and Dragonborn Breath are stat+2 because they target NADs.
Do you really think 1d6+strength damage is good enough to justify the standard action?
If you really think Charging Gore is that great then there is nothing I can say to change your mind. Just know from a strictly mechanical point it is inferior.
PC Races that get no bonuses to any defense score: Dragonborn, Dwarves, Elves, Half-Elf, Tiefling, some Genasi, Gnomes, Minotaurs, Half-Orcs, Shifters, Gnolls.
So that leaves us with Halflings, Eladrin, Humans, Warforged, most Genasi, Goliaths, and Devas as getting a defensive bonus as a racial feature.
Of those, Devas and Halflings are situational like the Minotaur (vs. Bloodied opponents and vs. OAs respectively) so we'll toss them out. So that leaves us 5 races that gain bonuses to a defense score (most of them Will).
So that's, what... 5 out of 17 races? Now, some of them gain some other defensive measure (DR vs. an energy type being the most common), but they're few in number also (2 Genasi types and Tieflings). That's 1/3 of the races. That doesn't make for a good argument that leaving it out is against 4e racial design methodology. It's actually more the norm than not.
Now if we are to count that as a defensive bonus (as i do) then it's 8 of 17 which is just shy of 1/2 the races. I discounted them in the previous paragraph since you stated it wasn't good enough to qualify.
As we've seen, it's more that as a Minotaur your defenses are "normal" whereas a Goliath or Warforged are outside the norm and get a +1 on Will. Yes, in the STR/CON races, the Minotaur is the odd man out. And frankly, i expect to see the Warforged get toned down come EPG release. (between the Living Construct keyword and their Resolve power they never die... especially when you put the Rep. App. on them)
Minotaurs are not "normal". When 15/16 races in LFR have something and you don't you are not "normal". You are below the average, hence subpar.
I don't think you understand the problem I am bringing up. Those races that don't have the extra bonus to a defense don't need it. You only need the extra bonus to defense if you have +2 to same stat group (STR/CON, DEX/INT, WIS/CHA). Every other race in the game is built properly.
"Complain" usually isn't the method used to report bugs in a beta.
I work in QA for a software company. I've taken complain to be synonymous with beta testing.
As I said, you're entitled to your opinion, but I really think you're looking at things from the wrong angle. The whole "4e design philosophy" of bonuses to defenses is just plain wrong also. At best it's a 1 in 2 proposition, at worst it's a 1 in 3 proposition.
Anyway, I don't think we should derail the thread any more. :D Feel free to PM if you want to continue the discussion.
I agree. Let's leave this guys thread alone. I'll cook up a PM to send you later.
Okay, well...as for the role-play thing, it's only as fun as you make it. You can say that Kelemvor would never pick a Dhampyr...but are you Kelemvor? ;) People that say they know how a particular NPC would act...I don't necessarily agree with that. Your input? Valued. But I'm not heeding it.
I didn't say Kelemvor would not accept a dhampyr, and for that matter didn't say they are undead. I think we are all fully aware they are a living creature, but their link to undead heritage combined with worship of Kelemvor is an issue for some DMs on these boards.
The reason I brought it up is for your benefit of having the knowledge ahead of time that a DM may throw a hissy fit about it later. If you go back and read the other thread you will see there were people who said they would refuse to allow a Kelemvor worshiping dhamphyr to play at their table, or refuse to DM for a table with such a PC.
Just thought you should know it can become a big issue at conventions or game days if you run into one of those DMs.
I didn't say Kelemvor would not accept a dhampyr, and for that matter didn't say they are undead. I think we are all fully aware they are a living creature, but their link to undead heritage combined with worship of Kelemvor is an issue for some DMs on these boards.
The reason I brought it up is for your benefit of having the knowledge ahead of time that a DM may throw a hissy fit about it later. If you go back and read the other thread you will see there were people who said they would refuse to allow a Kelemvor worshiping dhamphyr to play at their table, or refuse to DM for a table with such a PC.
Just thought you should know it can become a big issue at conventions or game days if you run into one of those DMs.
Guilt by association is something very few Gods practice because it's kinda racist. Warforged could be viewed as "Golem Spawn" because their derived from a similar line of research. You put the word Golem at the end of any creature name it's torches and pitch forks time tell me a god who would tolerate Warforged in this light they don't go heaven, or hell, and have no flesh. Kelemvor is a God of the Dead he doesn't care if someones uncle is a Vampire only that you destroy him when called to do so. I can see him having Special Forces such as Deadstalkers those who use the tools of the enemy as deadly weapons in the name of Kelemvor's wrath. Connor from Angel is a Dhamphyr and in a certain light so are The Slayers would Kelemvor really say no to Buffy I don't thinks so.
Guilt by association is something very few Gods practice because it's kinda racist. Warforged could be viewed as "Golem Spawn" because their derived from a similar line of research. You put the word Golem at the end of any creature name it's torches and pitch forks time tell me a god who would tolerate Warforged in this light they don't go heaven, or hell, and have no flesh. Kelemvor is a God of the Dead he doesn't care if someones uncle is a Vampire only that you destroy him when called to do so. I can see him having Special Forces such as Deadstalkers those who use the tools of the enemy as deadly weapons in the name of Kelemvor's wrath. Connor from Angel is a Dhamphyr and in a certain light so are The Slayers would Kelemvor really say no to Buffy I don't thinks so.
*sigh*.
And so my prediction (c.f. Buffy/Angel) in the other thread comes true....
I wish the OP the best of luck with his.....creation. I'm just glad I'm probably 3000 miles and an ocean away from ever interacting with it.
What prediction? you made no predictions, you just said everyoen wants to play Angel. Which isn't true. And someone using them as an example means nothing. Dhampyr can worship Kelemvor, there's nothing mechanically to stop it.
I believe in some instances Kelemvor might actually prefer to use them because of a Dhamphyr's increased combat potential.
Opportunity Gore eliminates the Power as a "standard action" only and makes it an ideal OA.
Just my two cents. I really like the Minotaur Race.
Gnolls have a charging power too. It's not a standard action, just like every other race.
You know, I just looked back over the Gnoll recently and I noticed that their racial power is indeed a standard action.
This is important because it:
A) Allows a gnoll to use his racial encounter power despite not being a strength based class.
and,
B) Allows a gnoll to use his racial encounter power in the same turn as he uses his class powers.
Every other race (including gnolls) can do these things except minotaurs (and orcs but apparently they don't count).
The only good argument I've seen for purposely making Charging Gore underpowered came from Norgerber when he mentioned that the feat allows you to use it as a OA thereby negating the poorly designed standard action cost. Unfortunately there are still two problems. You still have to use strength (unlike every other race in the game) and you have to spend a feat on it. Does any other race have to spend a feat to make their racial encounter power useable?