Character Building Etiquette - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Character Building Etiquette

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Solodan
Dec 17, 2008 15:54:31 As LFR is a community based campaign, are there certain builds that people tend to look down upon? Specifically, would it be better to leave some of the optimization out and go with a less polished character. Assume for this discussion that roleplaying will be good and equivelent regardless of character optimization choices.

I'm asking because I like to make characters, but since I'm mostly a DM, I tend to make them as level 1 pregens to hand out to new players. Of course, I want them to be fun and useful out of the gate, but I also don't want to burden new players with Warforged Barbarians and Double Sword Tempest Fighters if there is a general consensus that the cream of the CO crop is just a little too broken.

What do you think? Can a character be too good?
#2
Nutation
Dec 17, 2008 16:08:58
As LFR is a community based campaign, are there certain builds that people tend to look down upon?

I think the major distinction is that it's not a fixed group of players in the RPGA setting.
You don't know what the party mix will be, so a little versatility is a good idea. For example, don't design a Warlord who is only good with Commander's Strike. There may not be a suitable target.
You don't always have the same judge, so don't base your character on an unusual rules interpretation.
#3
eudemonist
Dec 17, 2008 17:00:29 Minotaurs with oversized Execution Axes doing Brutal 2 on 2d6 are my current "love-to-hate", but hey, they're legit, so go for it. Especially if they're gonna be used as pregens for new players.
#4
mwao_dup
Dec 17, 2008 17:23:02
Minotaurs with oversized Execution Axes doing Brutal 2 on 2d6 are my current "love-to-hate", but hey, they're legit, so go for it. Especially if they're gonna be used as pregens for new players.

Minotaurs can't used oversized weapons in Dragon...
#5
mwao_dup
Dec 17, 2008 17:45:52 I think the thing I would be emphatic about would be to make characters designed for LFR, not set tables. i.e. don't buy 18s in stats, don't double up on one defense, make sure to have a secondary stat that allows for a variety of skills, and allow for possible feat desires.
#6
matteblack
Dec 17, 2008 22:20:36 I am hesitant about defining what is too good but, I would say that characters should be complete formed with a concept beyond just a set of stats and not hinge upon contested rules grey areas that are likely to bog down the play session each time it is played with a new DM.

I also like to see a little variety so, I'd be against the most popular powerbuilds because they are less likely to appear unique.

It ultimately comes down to building a character that will be fun to play and play along side. Excessively overmatching the encounters, not pulling the character's weight and inviting lengthy and/or heated rules debates don't enhance my play experience.
#7
kinevon
Dec 17, 2008 23:25:59 My advice would be to build a set of pregens, enough to provide a balanced party, actually. May not need all of them, but it can't hurt to have them around.

As to optimization, go for the level that you feel comfortable with.

The pregens I built all have an 18 in their primary stat, but are also of a race that adds the +2 to the stat, so they only bought a 16, so they have points left for other stats.

I try to pick a better power balance than the recommended power/feat/skill set given in the PHB.

I only rarely go the route of building MC Hammer or equivalent, and that mainly for my personal edification.

I tend to stay with the "common" race/class combinations, like Elf longbow Ranger; and leave the more exotic stuff for those buildinG their own, so as to not put too much strain on the poor pregen user, since they are frequently new to 4th Ed.

I do allow them to fine tune the pregen, so nothing is set in stone.

I do try to build a pregen or two from the newest stuff, if I remember. Not just PHB & FRPG races and classes, but some of the stuff from Dragon.
#8
_metz_
Dec 17, 2008 23:41:49 I think it is important to select only PHB options.

This is for two reasons:

1. Most folk who own a FRPG would have thier own level one PC
2. Simplicity is best in a pregen, if they only have to reference ONE book, than it makes it a lot easier. Chances are interested parties may not have all the splat-books yet either.

The exception to this is background. If you are doing small write-ups as to where the PC is from, than by all means choose a pertinent background. Otherwise let the Player choose it at the table.

As to optimization, what MwaO said. If the PC has an 18 BEFORE racial modifiers, than it is too unbalanced, whilst it may work for some PCs, remember that in LFR skill challenges etc are significant.

The Dragoncoast Yahoo group has a great set of pregens, made by one of our locals, Gary Cross. These are not optimized, but simple and use primarily PHB stuff, and include pictures and full power write-ups.
#9
matteblack
Dec 18, 2008 0:35:22
I tend to stay with the "common" race/class combinations, like Elf longbow Ranger; and leave the more exotic stuff for those buildign their own, so as to not put too much strain on the poor pregen user, since they are frequently new to 4th Ed.

I really believe that the elf longbow ranger is probably the easiest character to learn how to play 4th with. The ease of play of the pre-gen builds should definitely be a consideration. In that same vein, printing out the power cards for the pre-gen is probably going to help everyone at that potential table. You could most likely include them on a second B&W copy stapled to the character sheet.
#10
_metz_
Dec 18, 2008 0:38:12 The new Character builder makes it darn easy. Especially with all those powers, etc. Poor Gary had to do it all by hand before it came out...
#11
kinevon
Dec 18, 2008 1:19:42
The new Character builder makes it darn easy. Especially with all those powers, etc. Poor Gary had to do it all by hand before it came out...

Yeah, I used that for my last batch of LFR pregens. The player who found that her wizard had already played that module was happy for the cards. She took the Elf Ranger, too. Heh.
#12
pint_glass_crusader
Dec 18, 2008 2:07:04 I always find the best pregens are those that have been obviously ripped from standard fantasy archetypes and given a quick D&D "paint scheme".

When creating Pregens I normally use these (all humans):

The Stalwart Warrior - Fighter
The Swashbuckling Rogue - Rogue
The Able Bowman - Ranger
The Mysterious Wizard - Warlock/Wizard (usually Warlock in 4th ed.)
The Fervent Crusader - Cleric
The Honourable Knight - Paladin

These character concepts are easy to grasp and easy to play, more importantly, they are bland with few surprises, this means players don't get attatched and usually want to play something "better" when the game ends... which leads them to make their own characters.

The best pregen characters are those that are disposable, they can fill in on a group in a pinch and will be effective, but they are not personalised.

I always let new players take away pregen characters they have used, but advise them that they can "retrain & rearm" the character before the next game and encourage them to change, expand and rewrite any background to personalise the character.
#13
gomeztoo
Dec 18, 2008 2:40:19 One thin I advise is to give the characters a versatile skill set. Try to give each character a skill that can be used in a social encounter (Bludd, Diplomacy, Streetwise, Perception, Insight) or a physical encounter (Acrobatics, Athletics, Endurance, Stealth). It isn't always possibly, but when it does it may help in getting characters to participate in various skill challenges, and not stand aside twiddling their thumbs while the rest of the party has a ball.
#14
Dragon9
Dec 18, 2008 8:02:08
One thin I advise is to give the characters a versatile skill set. Try to give each character a skill that can be used in a social encounter (Bludd, Diplomacy, Streetwise, Perception, Insight)

I don't think slitting your wrists in front of an NPC will help in most social encounters. ;)
#15
elder_basilisk
Dec 18, 2008 12:46:01 I would build PHB only characters--you don't want to tell a new player, "oh, you need these three other books and a D&D insider subscription in order to make your character work."

Additionally, I would aim for the "competent and well built" rather than the "maximum Char-op board cheese" section of the power curve with a bias toward traditional fantasy archetypes and races. If a player is new to the game or the genre it's easier to get in with a human wizard or a dwarf fighter than some wierd race they published in Dragon last week.

It is also important for the characters to have a standard power curve where they start out with the kind of defenses and doing the kinds of things that they will be doing from there on out. A dwarf ranger who is dumping dex, for instance, could take Dwarven Weapon training at first level and wield his hammers or axes more effectively. On the other hand, he will need to take chainmail proficiency at level 2 in order to have a survivable armor class. A pregen should take the chainmail proficiency at level 1 and leave the weapon training until 2nd level. Characters who are making risky sacrifices and that will require careful play at first level are not good pregenerated characters because they are being given to precisely the people who are least able to accurately evaluate the risks and understand the steps they will need to take in order to mitigate them. New players will learn by experience, but that's not the best way for things to run.

Finally, I think it's important that pregen characters have a fairly obvious and flexible advancement path because when the player hits 2nd level and 3rd level, they will not necessarily know that your build requires them to take the warlock multiclass feat. To use the ranger as another example, I would think that a strength/dex TWF ranger is a better pregen than a Str/Wis TWF ranger who, while perfectly set up for the Pitfighter paragon path is not really a good fit for either TWF ranger paragon path in the PHB. Where possible, lean towards the generic options.
#16
eudemonist
Dec 18, 2008 14:57:01 Ok, so I have plainly revealed my lack of experience with pre-gen characters and convention play in general.

Lots of good, thoughtful responses.
#17
mr_industrialpants
Dec 18, 2008 19:33:57 I would also look at each class and make sure they have stats that can lead them into certain feats that will benefit the character later.

For instance you want to make sure the Wizard (or Swordmage) has a 15 Dex by 11th level for Arcane Reach (or an Armor Specialization feat), and etc. This way if you build a regular group you can guide your players to choosing feats that will enhance their first characters.

For some players it takes these guiding steps to get them into the game, enjoy it, and make combinations (class/race/feat) on their own.

Good luck.
#18
KarmaInferno
Dec 19, 2008 14:41:49 DON'T play a mysterious loner. It's a cool concept for a story and all, but it works horribly in a Living campaign, where you are often thrown into a group of complete strangers every adventure.

DON'T be a complete mercenary. Those attitudes don't work all the time - have a reason for your characters to take the mission or job even if there's no promise of pay.

DO have a "hook" or theme for your character, beyond just race/class/role. It helps people remember you and can often be a fast way to get mentally engaged with a new party.

DO be good at SOMETHING. Roleplay is all well and good, but gimping yourself to do it means pain for the rest of your party as they have to carry your useless butt around. If possible, be decently good at a couple of things.

-karma
#19
Bigfluffylemon
Dec 21, 2008 8:40:55 My group has a set of eight pre-gens; one for each class in the PHB (with each race represented). They are all set-up so that the race/class combos give +2 to the primary (and sometimes the secondary), so that the other stats and skills allow them to be reasonably rounded, and backgrounds that are typical for the race in the Forgotten Realms (as well as allowing for useful skill bonuses). For the record:

Dwarf laser cleric from East Rift
Human sword & board fighter from Cormyr
Half-Elf Chaladin from Waterdeep
Elf longbow ranger from the Dalelands
Halfling artful dodger rogue from Dragon Coast
Tiefling Starlock from Baldur's Gate
Dragonborn insprining warlord from Tymanther
Eladrin wand wizard from Aglarond

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Solodan Dec 17, 2008 15:54:31	As LFR is a community based campaign, are there certain builds that people tend to look down upon? Specifically, would it be better to leave some of the optimization out and go with a less polished character. Assume for this discussion that roleplaying will be good and equivelent regardless of character optimization choices. I'm asking because I like to make characters, but since I'm mostly a DM, I tend to make them as level 1 pregens to hand out to new players. Of course, I want them to be fun and useful out of the gate, but I also don't want to burden new players with Warforged Barbarians and Double Sword Tempest Fighters if there is a general consensus that the cream of the CO crop is just a little too broken. What do you think? Can a character be too good?
#2 Nutation Dec 17, 2008 16:08:58	As LFR is a community based campaign, are there certain builds that people tend to look down upon? I think the major distinction is that it's not a fixed group of players in the RPGA setting. You don't know what the party mix will be, so a little versatility is a good idea. For example, don't design a Warlord who is only good with Commander's Strike. There may not be a suitable target. You don't always have the same judge, so don't base your character on an unusual rules interpretation.
#3 eudemonist Dec 17, 2008 17:00:29	Minotaurs with oversized Execution Axes doing Brutal 2 on 2d6 are my current "love-to-hate", but hey, they're legit, so go for it. Especially if they're gonna be used as pregens for new players.
#4 mwao_dup Dec 17, 2008 17:23:02	Minotaurs with oversized Execution Axes doing Brutal 2 on 2d6 are my current "love-to-hate", but hey, they're legit, so go for it. Especially if they're gonna be used as pregens for new players. Minotaurs can't used oversized weapons in Dragon...
#5 mwao_dup Dec 17, 2008 17:45:52	I think the thing I would be emphatic about would be to make characters designed for LFR, not set tables. i.e. don't buy 18s in stats, don't double up on one defense, make sure to have a secondary stat that allows for a variety of skills, and allow for possible feat desires.
#6 matteblack Dec 17, 2008 22:20:36	I am hesitant about defining what is too good but, I would say that characters should be complete formed with a concept beyond just a set of stats and not hinge upon contested rules grey areas that are likely to bog down the play session each time it is played with a new DM. I also like to see a little variety so, I'd be against the most popular powerbuilds because they are less likely to appear unique. It ultimately comes down to building a character that will be fun to play and play along side. Excessively overmatching the encounters, not pulling the character's weight and inviting lengthy and/or heated rules debates don't enhance my play experience.
#7 kinevon Dec 17, 2008 23:25:59	My advice would be to build a set of pregens, enough to provide a balanced party, actually. May not need all of them, but it can't hurt to have them around. As to optimization, go for the level that you feel comfortable with. The pregens I built all have an 18 in their primary stat, but are also of a race that adds the +2 to the stat, so they only bought a 16, so they have points left for other stats. I try to pick a better power balance than the recommended power/feat/skill set given in the PHB. I only rarely go the route of building MC Hammer or equivalent, and that mainly for my personal edification. I tend to stay with the "common" race/class combinations, like Elf longbow Ranger; and leave the more exotic stuff for those buildinG their own, so as to not put too much strain on the poor pregen user, since they are frequently new to 4th Ed. I do allow them to fine tune the pregen, so nothing is set in stone. I do try to build a pregen or two from the newest stuff, if I remember. Not just PHB & FRPG races and classes, but some of the stuff from Dragon.
#8 _metz_ Dec 17, 2008 23:41:49	I think it is important to select only PHB options. This is for two reasons: 1. Most folk who own a FRPG would have thier own level one PC 2. Simplicity is best in a pregen, if they only have to reference ONE book, than it makes it a lot easier. Chances are interested parties may not have all the splat-books yet either. The exception to this is background. If you are doing small write-ups as to where the PC is from, than by all means choose a pertinent background. Otherwise let the Player choose it at the table. As to optimization, what MwaO said. If the PC has an 18 BEFORE racial modifiers, than it is too unbalanced, whilst it may work for some PCs, remember that in LFR skill challenges etc are significant. The Dragoncoast Yahoo group has a great set of pregens, made by one of our locals, Gary Cross. These are not optimized, but simple and use primarily PHB stuff, and include pictures and full power write-ups.
#9 matteblack Dec 18, 2008 0:35:22	I tend to stay with the "common" race/class combinations, like Elf longbow Ranger; and leave the more exotic stuff for those buildign their own, so as to not put too much strain on the poor pregen user, since they are frequently new to 4th Ed. I really believe that the elf longbow ranger is probably the easiest character to learn how to play 4th with. The ease of play of the pre-gen builds should definitely be a consideration. In that same vein, printing out the power cards for the pre-gen is probably going to help everyone at that potential table. You could most likely include them on a second B&W copy stapled to the character sheet.
#10 _metz_ Dec 18, 2008 0:38:12	The new Character builder makes it darn easy. Especially with all those powers, etc. Poor Gary had to do it all by hand before it came out...
#11 kinevon Dec 18, 2008 1:19:42	The new Character builder makes it darn easy. Especially with all those powers, etc. Poor Gary had to do it all by hand before it came out... Yeah, I used that for my last batch of LFR pregens. The player who found that her wizard had already played that module was happy for the cards. She took the Elf Ranger, too. Heh.
#12 pint_glass_crusader Dec 18, 2008 2:07:04	I always find the best pregens are those that have been obviously ripped from standard fantasy archetypes and given a quick D&D "paint scheme". When creating Pregens I normally use these (all humans): The Stalwart Warrior - Fighter The Swashbuckling Rogue - Rogue The Able Bowman - Ranger The Mysterious Wizard - Warlock/Wizard (usually Warlock in 4th ed.) The Fervent Crusader - Cleric The Honourable Knight - Paladin These character concepts are easy to grasp and easy to play, more importantly, they are bland with few surprises, this means players don't get attatched and usually want to play something "better" when the game ends... which leads them to make their own characters. The best pregen characters are those that are disposable, they can fill in on a group in a pinch and will be effective, but they are not personalised. I always let new players take away pregen characters they have used, but advise them that they can "retrain & rearm" the character before the next game and encourage them to change, expand and rewrite any background to personalise the character.
#13 gomeztoo Dec 18, 2008 2:40:19	One thin I advise is to give the characters a versatile skill set. Try to give each character a skill that can be used in a social encounter (Bludd, Diplomacy, Streetwise, Perception, Insight) or a physical encounter (Acrobatics, Athletics, Endurance, Stealth). It isn't always possibly, but when it does it may help in getting characters to participate in various skill challenges, and not stand aside twiddling their thumbs while the rest of the party has a ball.
#14 Dragon9 Dec 18, 2008 8:02:08	One thin I advise is to give the characters a versatile skill set. Try to give each character a skill that can be used in a social encounter (*Bludd,* Diplomacy, Streetwise, Perception, Insight) I don't think slitting your wrists in front of an NPC will help in most social encounters. ;)
#15 elder_basilisk Dec 18, 2008 12:46:01	I would build PHB only characters--you don't want to tell a new player, "oh, you need these three other books and a D&D insider subscription in order to make your character work." Additionally, I would aim for the "competent and well built" rather than the "maximum Char-op board cheese" section of the power curve with a bias toward traditional fantasy archetypes and races. If a player is new to the game or the genre it's easier to get in with a human wizard or a dwarf fighter than some wierd race they published in Dragon last week. It is also important for the characters to have a standard power curve where they start out with the kind of defenses and doing the kinds of things that they will be doing from there on out. A dwarf ranger who is dumping dex, for instance, could take Dwarven Weapon training at first level and wield his hammers or axes more effectively. On the other hand, he will need to take chainmail proficiency at level 2 in order to have a survivable armor class. A pregen should take the chainmail proficiency at level 1 and leave the weapon training until 2nd level. Characters who are making risky sacrifices and that will require careful play at first level are not good pregenerated characters because they are being given to precisely the people who are least able to accurately evaluate the risks and understand the steps they will need to take in order to mitigate them. New players will learn by experience, but that's not the best way for things to run. Finally, I think it's important that pregen characters have a fairly obvious and flexible advancement path because when the player hits 2nd level and 3rd level, they will not necessarily know that your build requires them to take the warlock multiclass feat. To use the ranger as another example, I would think that a strength/dex TWF ranger is a better pregen than a Str/Wis TWF ranger who, while perfectly set up for the Pitfighter paragon path is not really a good fit for either TWF ranger paragon path in the PHB. Where possible, lean towards the generic options.
#16 eudemonist Dec 18, 2008 14:57:01	Ok, so I have plainly revealed my lack of experience with pre-gen characters and convention play in general. Lots of good, thoughtful responses.
#17 mr_industrialpants Dec 18, 2008 19:33:57	I would also look at each class and make sure they have stats that can lead them into certain feats that will benefit the character later. For instance you want to make sure the Wizard (or Swordmage) has a 15 Dex by 11th level for Arcane Reach (or an Armor Specialization feat), and etc. This way if you build a regular group you can guide your players to choosing feats that will enhance their first characters. For some players it takes these guiding steps to get them into the game, enjoy it, and make combinations (class/race/feat) on their own. Good luck.
#18 KarmaInferno Dec 19, 2008 14:41:49	DON'T play a mysterious loner. It's a cool concept for a story and all, but it works horribly in a Living campaign, where you are often thrown into a group of complete strangers every adventure. DON'T be a complete mercenary. Those attitudes don't work all the time - have a reason for your characters to take the mission or job even if there's no promise of pay. DO have a "hook" or theme for your character, beyond just race/class/role. It helps people remember you and can often be a fast way to get mentally engaged with a new party. DO be good at SOMETHING. Roleplay is all well and good, but gimping yourself to do it means pain for the rest of your party as they have to carry your useless butt around. If possible, be decently good at a couple of things. -karma
#19 Bigfluffylemon Dec 21, 2008 8:40:55	My group has a set of eight pre-gens; one for each class in the PHB (with each race represented). They are all set-up so that the race/class combos give +2 to the primary (and sometimes the secondary), so that the other stats and skills allow them to be reasonably rounded, and backgrounds that are typical for the race in the Forgotten Realms (as well as allowing for useful skill bonuses). For the record: Dwarf laser cleric from East Rift Human sword & board fighter from Cormyr Half-Elf Chaladin from Waterdeep Elf longbow ranger from the Dalelands Halfling artful dodger rogue from Dragon Coast Tiefling Starlock from Baldur's Gate Dragonborn insprining warlord from Tymanther Eladrin wand wizard from Aglarond