What are people's attitude to this practice? I'd expect it to become quite common amongst LFR players.
Does anyone out there consider it cheating?
Or do you see players who fail to take advantage of this legal game mechanic as being scrubs?
It is clearly not cheating, since they've made it allowable. There's my answer on that.
I don't consider myself either a power gamer, a cheese weasel or a bad egg but I intend to use to its fullest until such time as the PTB figure out that this was a bad idea. Or maybe they won't. *shrug*
And someone that doesn't take advantage of it isn't a scrub/newb/whatever just because they don't use it. To each their own.
I do know a couple people who do this at every opportunity and see no problems with it.
You can't ask if something is cheating if you also call it legal.
I wasn't asking if it is cheating, I asked if people viewed it as such.
For example, having an affair with a woman other than your wife may be perfectly legal, but many people refer to it as "cheating".
Many players have an unwritten code of honour, that they try to obey themselves. They recognise that most role-playing systems can be heavily abused via excessive character optimisation, and tend to deliberately avoid going too far themselves, and abuse those who do, using terms such as "munchkin" and "cheese". I personally play in a group who see using the reward cards as a form of cheating - so I never use them in my home games. I don't really mind - it just ups the challenge rating, which isn't a bad thing for many scenarios.
On the other hand, many LFR players tend to be quite competitive, and will make efforts to be as effective as possible whilst not going against their own personal standards. This may be because they enjoy winning, it may be because they've seen what happens to high level groups where no one has optimised, or it may be because they just don't want to let the team down.
For any given optimization, there's going to be people who see it as being fair game, and there are others who will not only avoid it, but will look down on those who use it. But depending on how gross the optimization is (the "cheese factor" as some people refer to it over in char op), the size of these groups will vary.
So I'd just like to test the water and see how people stand on this particular issue. Partly because I'd expect it to appear far more widely than many others.
I understand the intent of the rule to be "This new build/power/feat came out that's perfect for my character that I didn't know about before, so I'll redistribute my stats to qualify."
Retraining stats every 4/8/11 level in order to "maximize evens" - while legal in LFR - does not seem to jive with the design of 4e.
Of course, this is my opinion. There are many players out there who enjoy bending every rule possible to maximize their character's effectiveness.
Just because it's "legal" doesn't mean it should be done.
I have not and will not ever do this. It's clearly an abuse of the generous retraining rules.
No. The rule itself is an abuse. Using the rule isn't. Using the rule would be protest.
Well, in my case, it would be.
Just because it's "legal" doesn't mean it should be done.
So, go nuts. Please. Also, now people can worry less about what the perfect stat choices are and -just play-.
Too tedious.
Yep, I am also way too lazy to go change my stats all the time.
For example, having an affair with a woman other than your wife may be perfectly legal, but many people refer to it as "cheating".
So would this be "attributetry"?
Good thread title btw
I have not and will not ever do this. It's clearly an abuse of the generous retraining rules.
No. The rule itself is an abuse. Using the rule isn't. Using the rule would be protest.
Well, in my case, it would be.
Never understood this. Why "abuse" a rule out of protest? The only one you will hurt is yourself
(Either that, or when the abuse is truly bad, the campaign as a whole, see DME changes.)As others have said, the rule is there to help people who made the wrong choice at low levels or to be able to grab a build that better fits your idea of the character when such an option becomes available. Still, it is allowed to squeeze that +1 out of the stats if that is what you want. I doubt most people would even notice it...
When 4e first came out, I eagerly whipped up a Guardian fighter, but was dismayed to note that a few useful-looking feats, notably Distracting Shield and Shield Specialization required high values in stats that made it so, to qualify for these feats as soon as possible, I had to put relatively high scores in Dex/Wis. But, since at level 11 and 21, these scores go up automatically, it felt like I was wasting one or two extra points down the road. After all, I could have sunk those points into something more useful.
This new rule allows me to do what I felt I should have been able to do: Increase Wis or Dex at low levels, grab those feats quickly, and then as the tiers go by, I can switch out those increases to stats that need them.
I probably wouldn't bother trying to keep primary scores even, but I can't see myself viewing anyone who does as a "cheater" or a "munchkin." The system is blind to odd stats, so how could I blame someone for wanting to jump past that boring valley between the evens? *shrug*
Never understood this. Why "abuse" a rule out of protest? The only one you will hurt is yourself
Using this in -noooooo- way hurts me. It helps me. And in some cases it may well help me a lot.
As others have said, the rule is there to help people who made the wrong choice at low levels or to be able to grab a build that better fits your idea of the character when such an option becomes available. Still, it is allowed to squeeze that +1 out of the stats if that is what you want. I doubt most people would even notice it...
Being able to take 2 or even more attribute point (points not actual attribute pips) and spend them to raise another attribute, 1, or 2 or more pips? I think you will notice. If at the "odd" levels I leave my primary at its even level and use the extra points on other stats ... this might get an extra +1 to a stat, but it might also qualify me for feats, add damage, perhaps extend effects (teleports might be a good one, especially for my avengers), or even healing. And with the right classes, some attribute bonuses "double dip" ... so you're talking about potentially a +2 (or higher) effect per turn.
With the new retraining rules, it's now perfectly legal to shuffle around stat points every time a character levels, in such a way that a character's primary and secondary stats are never left on odd numbers, and characters always have the best possible bonuses from their stat points. What are people's attitude to this practice? I'd expect it to become quite common amongst LFR players. Does anyone out there consider it cheating?
It seems like cheating to me, or at least very "scummy." Clearly the intent of the rule was to let people retrain into a cool new build that comes out, rebuild their character when they decide they don't enjoy playing it anymore, or qualify for some feat they didn't notice when they first built their character. If characters were supposed to constantly have the highest ability scores possible, then the game wouldn't be designed in such a way that odd stats were useless.
I hope that mass abuse of this rule doesn't get it taken away entirely because it serves a very useful purpose when used as intended. For example, I have a paragon tier LFR character that I abandoned a year ago because I absolutely hated playing her. It was my very first LFR character and only PHB was out when I designed her. It's nice that I now have the opportunity to rebuild her into something that I might enjoy playing again.
I personally won't be doing this because it feels cheap and is clearly an abuse of the rule (and I'm lazy).
Many players have an unwritten code of honour, that they try to obey themselves. They recognise that most role-playing systems can be heavily abused via excessive character optimisation, and tend to deliberately avoid going too far themselves, and abuse those who do, using terms such as "munchkin" and "cheese".
Cathartic expresses my view nicely. It's not cheating, but I consider it an exploit. A shared campaign requires a certain amount of self-discpline in order to work well.
It's a rule. A rule is a rule. If it applies to your situation, use it. If it does not, don't.
I haven't used it yet, but there's a couple of cases where I might due to errata and nerfs. Some builds were just gutted in the last couple of rules updates.
If I do end up using it, I will do so with zero regret or remorse. It's a game, not moral philosophy.
If others want to abuse the hell out of the rule or not use it at all, that's up to them. I'm not one to pass judgement. There's far more important issues in my life for me to get hung up on trivial stuff.
-karma
I doubt most people would even notice it...
I predict that nobody would notice it (unless you make a practice of publishing your character sheets online or handing out copies at events).
Restrict yourself beyond what the rules require all you like, for whatever reason seems appropriate to you (everyone draws a line somewhere), but it's not right to judge other people whose self-imposed restrictions don't line up to yours.
With WotC bringing out new material each month, I like that fact that it gives everyone a chance to experiment with new "stuff" without having to start from level 1.
The only games of D&D I get to play are LFR and as most of the groups are level 4-7 or 7-10, it's only rarely I can start a new character to try something different.