Hey yall :) First timer needs some advice

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

moralfae

Aug 31, 2009 7:49:21

First time RPGA player, now applying for a number, and have a game and character lined up. Already looking at advancment.


Now, I'm playing a wizard, whose more or less a classic controler; low con, cloth armour, very much a ranged combatant.... but it struck me that it endangers the old old problem of "if an enemy gets close, I'm toast"


So I was considering, over time, combining Melee Weapon Training (int) and Staff Fighting (Dragon 368) to open up some melee ability. A basic attack, for emergancies, and a +1 AC for a defensive weapon.


Still, for two feats, I have to step back and wonder... is this effective, good people? I don't have Staff of Defense....

#2

milkavian

Aug 31, 2009 7:58:51

You can either shore up your weaknesses and be a mediocre character all of the time, or go for your strengths and be a powerful caster most of the time and a smear on the battlefield every once in awhile.  In my experience, it's better to save your feats and rely on your utility powers for defense.  At 2nd level, you get Shield, which is an absolute lifesaver!  If you're that concerned about surviving 1st level, I'd recommend taking the Leather Armor Proficiency feat- nothing about wizards says you *have* to wear cloth to cast anymore, and it has no prerequisites.  You can always retrain it to something different at 2nd or later on once you find your comfort niche. ;)


Of course, this also assumes that at least one of your LFR teammates is playing a defender (fighter, paladin, warden, or swordmage).  If they're not, you could be in for some hurt.  The best defensive build for wizard is going with staff as your choice of implement mastery- yes, you'd have to boost your Con a bit, but it does give you an extra bit of AC.


 


Don't worry about Melee Training- get Thunderwave instead if you expect to get swarmed in melee.  In practice, though, as long as you stay a good distance away from the baddies, you're safe from everything but the occasionally artillery attack.  7 squares is enough to prevent most monsters from being able to slip behind the lines and charge you, and most of your powers are range 10 anyway   Enjoy being a wizard!

#3

moralfae

Aug 31, 2009 8:31:02


You can either shore up your weaknesses and be a mediocre character all of the time, or go for your strengths and be a powerful caster most of the time and a smear on the battlefield every once in awhile.  In my experience, it's better to save your feats and rely on your utility powers for defense.  At 2nd level, you get Shield, which is an absolute lifesaver!  If you're that concerned about surviving 1st level, I'd recommend taking the Leather Armor Proficiency feat- nothing about wizards says you *have* to wear cloth to cast anymore, and it has no prerequisites.  You can always retrain it to something different at 2nd or later on once you find your comfort niche. ;)



I wasn't intending to get them just yet.... perhaps later. The thing was, Staff Fighting allows me a +1AC, whilst maintaining the ability to wear cloth armour. Magical Cloth Armour has good properties, no? Those two struck me as a nice combo, in later levels....


Of course, this also assumes that at least one of your LFR teammates is playing a defender (fighter, paladin, warden, or swordmage).  If they're not, you could be in for some hurt.  The best defensive build for wizard is going with staff as your choice of implement mastery- yes, you'd have to boost your Con a bit, but it does give you an extra bit of AC.


Well, we've got a Swordmage, a Shamen, a Rogue and a Sorceror. That enough to keep the monsters busy? (I love the principles of RPGA, and traditional adventuring, but am NOT a good optimizer. This is my second 4ed game)


Don't worry about Melee Training- get Thunderwave instead if you expect to get swarmed in melee.  In practice, though, as long as you stay a good distance away from the baddies, you're safe from everything but the occasionally artillery attack.  7 squares is enough to prevent most monsters from being able to slip behind the lines and charge you, and most of your powers are range 10 anyway   Enjoy being a wizard!


I think I will, thanks. Sorry I've been argumentitive here.... And thanks for the feedback

#4

kinevon

Aug 31, 2009 21:36:17

A few other thoughts:


If you have Magic Missile, taking the feat Reaper's Touch frmo the Shar-kai article, which gives MM an additional range of melee touch and allows it to be used as a melee basic attack is a nice trade-off. Basically gives you the equivalent of a falchion if you need it, for the cost of only one feat. Plus it uses your existing (or future) implement, not requiring any extra magical weapon or anything to work.


Swordmage is the only defender in your group, how well he does it is a function of his build, and the player's competence with his abilities.


As mentioned, Thunderwave, if you have the Wisdom to support it, can not only be used without provoking an attack, but can be used to push enemies around the battlefield.


To be honest, there are times that, in order to be able to do your job, controlling, that you will wind up somewhere you will take damage. Whether it is because of line of sight/effect issues, or an opponent with similar powers, it can hurt. And that is where the leader(s) job comes in. Heh.


And welcome to the RPGA and LFR!

#5

_Mithreinmaethor_

Sep 01, 2009 1:53:10


A few other thoughts:


If you have Magic Missile, taking the feat Reaper's Touch frmo the Shar-kai article, which gives MM an additional range of melee touch and allows it to be used as a melee basic attack is a nice trade-off. Basically gives you the equivalent of a falchion if you need it, for the cost of only one feat. Plus it uses your existing (or future) implement, not requiring any extra magical weapon or anything to work.


Swordmage is the only defender in your group, how well he does it is a function of his build, and the player's competence with his abilities.


As mentioned, Thunderwave, if you have the Wisdom to support it, can not only be used without provoking an attack, but can be used to push enemies around the battlefield.


To be honest, there are times that, in order to be able to do your job, controlling, that you will wind up somewhere you will take damage. Whether it is because of line of sight/effect issues, or an opponent with similar powers, it can hurt. And that is where the leader(s) job comes in. Heh.


And welcome to the RPGA and LFR!




Reapers Touch has been changed in the Dragon Annual and is Shadar-kai only.

#6

moralfae

Sep 01, 2009 3:47:50

@HP I'm aware of that. And, whilst I had a passably strong claim to it, I foolishly didn't take Thay as my region of Origin (Playing an Enclave Red Wizard, and went with homeland above it)


Still, the question of defense raises itself. Our Swordmage has gone with the Aegis of Shielding, and has a pretty high con... encouraging signs. But given the minimal HP, and cloth armour, I can't help but worry a little.... Will that be enough for a low level controler?


(BTW, I'm having trouble with getting an RPGA number... the membership request form says, after completing it, "Your message has not been sent". Anywhere on here I could get some help with that? Wasn't sure where to ask)

#7

Cailte

Sep 01, 2009 6:29:18

There are so many possible builds that it is hard to really give advice, perhaps posting your character in the LFR Characters section would help.


That said here are some basic points to consider based on my experience and play style:


18 Int is going to make a big difference. 16 you will find misses a lot, and 20 burns up a lot of other options.


Con 14 or higher, or Con 11 and the Toughness feat (even HP are better than odd).


Dex 13 for feat access - lots of good Feats need Dex 13.


Wisdom - if you are going to start as an Orb of Imposition build you will want Wis 14 or Higher. However Wis 12 or 13 and 18 Int with always boosting Int and Wis will make a fine Ob of Imposition build if you take the Orb as your second implement.


Spells like "Storm Pillar" and "Ray of Frost" tend to work poorly if you only have two spell choices, as the opportunity to use them effectively will come up rarely.


The go to spells for your first two At-Wills are pretty much:
Cloud of Daggers: - Single target, effectively always does damage, can deny 1 square to the enemy
Phantom Bolt: - sinlge target with position control
Scorching Burst: - ranged multitarget with reasonable damage.
Thunderwave: - close multitarget with push (if you have Wis 12 minimum)
Chilling Cloud: - Ranged multitarget, Party Safe, and debuff's enemies.
Illusory Ambush: - Ranged single target with debuff.


You will notice I avoided the Hit Point backgrounds, this is because despite how it may look 28 hit points is not as useful as the skill boosts and other options that the other backgrounds offer.


 

#8

moralfae

Sep 01, 2009 7:33:33

Hmm... Good idea on posting my build. Though as this is the LFR characters forum, shouldn't I just post it in this thread? Anywho, here it is, for interests sake, as it currently stands. I was going with wand as a primary, no matter what the situation, that boost is always useful, no?


Karri 'Silverborn' Arthellha, Human Wizard
Init +2 HP 21/21 Bloodied 10 Healing Surge 5 (0 used /6)
AC 14 Fort 11 Reflex 15 Will 15 Speed 6
Str 8 (-1)  Con 11 (+0)  Dex 14 (+2)  Int 18 (+4)  Wis 12 (+1)  Cha 14 (+2)

Notes Background; Luruar, Can re-roll History checks, but must take second result. Bonus Language = Elven

Non-standard Adventurer's Kit ; Many of the things adventurers carry everywhere, Kari does not need, or does not desire. She sees living in harsher conditions as a small way to honour her ancestors
A backpack, flint and steel, two belt pouches and a waterskin. It weights 7lbs, and costs 6gp

#9

Cailte

Sep 01, 2009 9:31:11

*notices that he was posting in the Character forum.. I don't usually visit here*


Anyway things of note -


Wand of Accuracy is probably the weakest of the Wizard options for really fulfilling the controller role, as more accuracy 1/encounter doesn't help much.


Consider either Orb option, either Tome option or Staff of Defense. If you really want to do the Wand thing grab it as a second implement at Paragon.


I've already covered the At-Wills so I'll move on to Encounter Powers - Force Orb looks good on paper being friendly safe, but in practice it works poorly - you will end up using your Wand of Accuracy feature to try and make it hit more reliably. (Note MM is a fine 3rd At-Will (see Daily Powers below))


If you want to be a controller you want powers that manipulate the enemy - either forcing them into loose or loose more choices or limiting their terrain access (and punishing them for going after the best terrain). Astral Wasp, Orb Master's Incendiary Detonation, Icy Terrain, and Grasping Shadows all work in this way - some better than others and sometimes depending on the situation in front of you (which is where Tome of Readiness comes in).


For daily powers Horrid Whispers, Flaming Sphere, Summon Fire Warrior, Phantom Chasm, and Sleep all work as controller powers. All impose status effects (Orb of Imposition's schtick) one way or the other or block terrain access to the enemy - all of which is great for healping control the battlefield. Wizard's Fury is a much more potent power once you have options - such as a Tome Implement, so you can choose between Wizard's Fury or one of the spells the Tome has in it - hence Tomes make great second implements, even if you don't have a Tome focus.


The big thing to remember with 4E is if you want to play a traditional "blaster" wizard and pile a lot of damage out play a Sorcerer - you can do far more damage that way and you will still feel like you are playing a "wizard". If you want to play a controller then wizards are fine, but you need to choose powers that help you get battlefield control - and raw damage is not always the answer for doing that.


At higher levels spells like Color Spray, Icy Rays, Grasp of the Grave, Bigby's Icy Grasp, Tomebound Ooze, Twist of Space, Mordenkainen's Guardian Hound, and Wall of Fire all do respectable damage or let you maniupulate the battlefield in some way. There are even more potentially powerful control effects again, but they tend to do no damage and be harder to impose successfully without hindering your party - which is a key thing with LFR play. Unless you know the party before hand and can build your character around that (unlikely outside of home games) your character needs to be able to fill her role largely self sufficiently. So striking a balance between damage and control does help.


Fnally if you have the Character Builder then I serioulsy recomend iPlay4e.com to you, the sheets are far easier to read and use than the MythWeavers ones.

#10

Uthrac

Sep 01, 2009 11:19:07

Why 14 Cha?

#11

moralfae

Sep 01, 2009 12:12:51

@14 char, Roleplayer here I know that's not the focus of LFR, but still that's how I work. Envision a character with the ability scores, including personality, and then work on their stats to make them true to how I thought of them, and the best they can be.


@Impliments, Hmm... as you see, I don't have any one ability score very high. If I pick another Impliment mastery, which'd you reccomend?


@Daily Powers, Horrid Whispers is my Alt. Wizards Fury... I thought it'd work well, under the idea of a daily being a sort of "final strike", something for the last confrontation. It's not very controllery, but does do quite a bit of damage with Arcane Reserves, and allows me to use anything with it. That allows me quite varied potential in a fight...


Still, a point. I plan on taking Expanded Spellbook later, to widen my access to spells.


@Controler Vs Blaster; Thanks for the advice here, and I do indeed intend to try and strike a middleground between control and damage. I simply haven't played at this low a level before; I've only tried Paragon level games. Thus, I was a LITTLE worried about limited options Hense a straight damage spell for the encounter....


How bad is it?

#12

Cailte

Sep 02, 2009 9:03:57

I'm not sure what the "how bad is it?" applies to but...


In my experience playing each of the roles in a number of LFR and home games across Heroic Tier and into Paragon I can say that for LFR the pattern seems to be that at 1-4 sheer damage is good, but as you get to the newer and higher levels parties need your wizard to be able to be a controller more and more.


This experience is what my advice has been based around.


As to recomendations - Tome of Readiness or Staff of Defence are the ones I like best through Heroic Tier. But that is a matter of play preference, in comparison to the other options. I'm just sure that Wand of Accuracy is the least effective of the basic options to have as your primary.


On Wizard's Fury - your analysis is spot on, Wizard's pumping out 2d4+10 as a minor action matter ;) (Dead enemies are thoroughly controlled after all )


To give an idea this is my LFR wizard (the User Choice powers are there for the Summoner's Tome), and one of the most memorable encounters I've had was a 4-7 one where she and the other Wizard in the party dropped their level 5 daily attacks on the solo - being grabbed by Bigby's Icy Grasp in the Grasp of the Grave zone was a terrible thing.... (Note she had just hit level 6 when Arcane Power came out, and has not been played since - so her power choices reflect PHB & Dragon options up to the release of AP... and yes Flaming Sphere is a controlling damage dealer.)


 


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Tehyendra Hastaan, level 6
Shadar-kai, Wizard
Arcane Implement Mastery: Staff of Defense
Background: Dalelands

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 14, Dex 10, Int 21, Wis 12, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 14, Dex 8, Int 18, Wis 11, Cha 10.


AC: 24 Fort: 17 Reflex: 19 Will: 17
HP: 44 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 11

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +13, Dungeoneering +9, Nature +9, Insight +9, Perception +9

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +5, Bluff +3, Diplomacy +3, Endurance +5, Heal +4, History +8, Intimidate +3, Religion +8, Stealth +5, Streetwise +3, Thievery +3, Athletics +3

FEATS
Wizard: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Armor Proficiency (Leather)
Level 2: Skill Training (Perception)
Level 4: Reaper's Touch
Level 6: Weapon Focus (Staff)

POWERS
Power User Choice: Summon Abyssal Maw
Power User Choice: Summon Fire Warrior
Wizard at-will 1: Magic Missile
Wizard at-will 1: Scorching Burst (retrained to Chilling Cloud at Level 6)
Wizard encounter 1: Grasping Shadows
Wizard daily 1: Flaming Sphere
Wizard daily 1 Spellbook: Phantom Chasm
Wizard utility 2: Shield
Wizard utility 2 Spellbook: Arcane Insight
Wizard encounter 3: Icy Rays
Wizard daily 5: Grasp of the Grave
Wizard daily 5 Spellbook: Stinking Cloud
Wizard utility 6: Wizard's Escape
Wizard utility 6 Spellbook: Dispel Magic

ITEMS
Spellbook, Adventurer's Kit, Climber's Kit, Implement, Staff, Residuum (Any) (50), Dagger, Defensive Staff +1, Lantern, Oil (1 pint) (5), Leather Armor of Cleansing +2, Potion of Healing (heroic tier), Summoner's Tome +1
RITUALS
Animal Messenger, Comprehend Language, Make Whole, Explorer's Fire, Tenser's Floating Disk, Water Walk, Enchant Magic Item
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

#13

Uthrac

Sep 02, 2009 14:38:45

I'd recommend staying as far away from combat as possible. Smile Your low-AC (cloth) and low-hp (Con) will make you an easy target for the enemy.


 


The 14 Charisma, while good for role-playing reasons, uses significant resources - mainly pulling from your secondary stats. As a wand-wizard with a 14 Dex, +2 to hit per encounter makes a difference 1-in-10 attack rolls. (Only "helps" you about once every three adventures.) Also, since you'll be using INT for defenses, Dex only adds to those Dex-based skills. Not much "bang" for the investment.


Orb-wizard could be an option - drop the Dex a bit - can you live with a 13 or 12 Cha? - and raise Wis.  If you want to be survivable in close quarters, staff is a good options (and there are lots of staves in LFR mods) - you could "borrow" some points from Dex/Wix/Cha.


 


If you're "married" to the stats you've chosen - and I understand completely that you may be for RP reasons - then the tradeoff is that your implement choice / secondary effects will not be very impressive, since your secondary wizard stats are weak.


 


 

#14

milkavian

Sep 06, 2009 20:23:28

I agree with Uthrac-- swapping Dex & Con and going with Staff Mastery would be the best way to ensure good defenses while keeping your feat free for fun stuff.  You'll get a +2 boost to your Fortitude, a +1 to your AC, and an extra few HP and healing surges without having to sacrifice anything except your bonus to Dex-based skills and the +2 to attacks 1/encounter which, as stated previously, is one of the more challenging implements to master.


Staff wizard is a subtle but important shift in playstyle.  If being able to survive the occasional stray shot is fun for you, then go for it.  With a shielding swordmage to mitigate incoming blows, a shaman to provide a spirit companion to help run interference, *and* a sorcerer for enemies to target instead of you, the stray shots will happen less often and hurt less.  If, however, you often find you REALLY need to hit with that encounter/daily, and it's worth taking the risk of a low Fortitude (swapping Con and Wis would be wise if you don't swap Con and Dex), then go for it!


A human wizard's extra at-will goes a long way towards providing the versatility you're looking for, and yes, cloth armors have some great properties- there are better ways for wizards to defend themselves than to spend a feat on better armor, IMO.  Make at least some of the recommended changes and you should have no problem surviving till later, more manageable levels!


 


As for the DCI stuff (aka RPGA stuff)- your best bet would be A) talking to the folks who are already members or B) filling out a DCI form at the event, if they have them on hand.  I've run a few Delves, and each sent me about a dozen forms to hand out to new players.  Ask your FLGS!  They're a bit more reliable than filling out forms online, even if you do have to wait awhile for WotC to complete the paperwork on their end.


Best of luck in your LFR adventures, and be sure to let us know how things turn out!