Anyone have particular combos that the've seen that should probably be stamped ``Avoid this unless you *REALLY* know what you're doing?''
Anyone with Cloth armor proficiency in a build that will go melee (Avenger,Swordmage,Wizard,Sorcerer). You end up having to use your HT feat for a defensive feature.
Any class with a AC related class feature to make up for light armor w/o Dex or Int that expects to ever be in melee. You end up having to use your HT feat for a defensive feature. (non-Dex Barbarians, Shaman)
Striker+Striker combinations. You can't combine features to be a full striker, and you're missing a lot of class features.
Don't hybridize such that too many of your features depend upon immediate actions. Can't think of any combos offhand, but surely it's possible (or will be possible some day) to load up on so many immediates that you can't use them all... and that defeats the purpose of hybridizing for flexibility.
Hybridizing two classes with incompatible implements would be annoying, although there are ways around it (Arcane Implement Proficiency, for example).
Hybridizing two classes with incompatible implements would be annoying, although there are ways around it (Arcane Implement Proficiency, for example).
Except that if you are a hybrid of two classes that use implements you can explicitly use any implement from both of your classes for all of your powers. "For example, a cleric/warlock can use implement powers from either class through holy symbols, rods, and wands."
Well, you can either use Hybrid Talent to grab a bunch of armor profs, or just take Leather Armor Proficiency like all the non-hybrid wizards are already doing.
I don't see the problem with this either. Hybrid swordmage/wizard, for instance, just ends up with one feat for hybrid talent and another for leather armor proficiency. And the character saves a feat on MC wizard so he can take enlarge spell with one feat rather than two. Having the capability to fight at range and a vastly improved selection of daily and encounter powers will often be worth a single feat.
I would add a note to be careful about class combos that depend upon minor actions to be good such as rogue/ranger. I think the theory is to collect sneak attack and quarry by using a piercing strike (sneak attack) and off-hand strike (quarry) in one round and twin strike (quarry) and low slash (sneak attack) the next round, but it only actually works for two or three rounds of combat (at most) and depends upon hitting with particular attacks. Simply taking a MC feat for ranger would yield you two rounds of quarry without having to worry about hitting with your single use of off-hand strike/ruffling sting (so after missing you could, for instance, spend an AP and piercing strike again to deliver both sneak attack and quarry with the MC feat--something you can't do with the hybrid). Additionally, while minor action attacks are good things, it can be difficult to be in the right position at the right time to be able to take advantage of them--especially for classes like ranger that need a minor action to activate their extra damage feature. If positioning and action requirements mean that you get sneak attack+quarry in round 2 and 3 with the hybrid, that won't always be as good as getting them in round 1 as a multiclass character (even without the second round of sneak attack+quarry).
Additionally, you should probably be careful about hybrids that come from different power sources since you will only be able to re-roll one of your class's at-wills with a particular re-roll card. There are other cards you can use, but the re-roll cards are popular and powerful, so making them harder for you to use makes your character just that much harder to use. It's probably not a deal-breaker but it is something to think about.
Now that hybrid characters have started showing up in all their broken `glory', I thought it would be a good time to start collecting advice on what hybrid characters NOT to make. With the final version of the hybrid rules, it seems that hybrid defenders are especially bad at their role at low levels, and hybrid leader|non-leaders seem pretty weak as leaders at low levels also. Anyone have particular combos that the've seen that should probably be stamped ``Avoid this unless you *REALLY* know what you're doing?''
I don't think there are a lot of inherently bad class combos as long as you only have to advance two stats - I think the issue is not thinking what role you're playing through and not considering potential implement/weapon/AC/secondary stat issues.
The three mistakes I'm really worried about seeing:
The guy who builds a hybrid thinking that they can fill either role, but not paying careful attention to power choices, and then telling the party, "Oh, yeah, I can fill role X." - this is especially true for Defender/Leaders.
The guy who goes, "Oh, I never think about AC anyway, so I don't care that my Paladin/Thane Barbarian only has a 13 AC with Hide Armor."
The weapon/implement build that can't simultaneously wield both weapon and implement, but hasn't invested in being able to use whichever is necessary. Not a problem at 1st level, but at 8th or so...
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I'd say this though - if you want to play both roles, human is a very strong choice - an extra at-will really allows for a lot of flexibility.
Anyone have particular combos that the've seen that should probably be stamped ``Avoid this unless you *REALLY* know what you're doing?''
Striker+Striker combinations. You can't combine features to be a full striker, and you're missing a lot of class features.
This isn't true for a barbarian/sorcerer. Both of their extra damage mechanics don't require extra actions, and so you've got a choice of good ranged attacks or good melee attacks. The extra "Strength for AC" feature of the sorcerer also works well with a barbarian. Take Hybrid Talent for Barbarian Armored Agility (getting you the scaling bonus and hide proficiency), and you're essentially as good as a regular Str/Con barbarian who had to take Hide Armor Expertise.
Well, you can either use Hybrid Talent to grab a bunch of armor profs, or just take Leather Armor Proficiency like all the non-hybrid wizards are already doing.
I take exception to such an inclusionary statement.
My wizard has not, and never will, take armor proficiency feats. And so far he has survived his party leaving him alone against a Barluga and a Displacer Beast, so it's not like it'd be worth anything anyway.This isn't true for a barbarian/sorcerer. [...] Take Hybrid Talent for Barbarian Armored Agility (getting you the scaling bonus and hide proficiency), and you're essentially as good as a regular Str/Con barbarian who had to take Hide Armor Expertise.
*blink*. Interesting. The Sorcerer has his defensive class feature given for free, no Hybrid Talent required. Which frees up a Hybrid talent slot. Nice stacking AC. Yeah, that one's viable. You lose Rampage and one rage, but that's nearly it.
Anyone have particular combos that the've seen that should probably be stamped ``Avoid this unless you *REALLY* know what you're doing?''
Striker+Striker combinations. You can't combine features to be a full striker, and you're missing a lot of class features.This isn't true for a barbarian/sorcerer. Both of their extra damage mechanics don't require extra actions, and so you've got a choice of good ranged attacks or good melee attacks. The extra "Strength for AC" feature of the sorcerer also works well with a barbarian. Take Hybrid Talent for Barbarian Armored Agility (getting you the scaling bonus and hide proficiency), and you're essentially as good as a regular Str/Con barbarian who had to take Hide Armor Expertise.
That gets a little tricky. You lose several things:
Feral Might and Soul of the Sorcerer - so no extra riders on powers.
A typical Barbarian, even a Thaneborn, isn't going to have an 18 Cha. While a Sorcerer might like to have an 18 Str, it isn't necessarily a great choice to have because you lose access to other things.
If you're a Dragonborn with an 18 Str/Cha, then you only have 2 at-wills. When you're in melee, you have only one Barbarian at-will to choose from. When you're at ranged, you only have one sorcerer at-will to look at. A human with a 16/18 is dinged on one of the two stats. That's a big loss of flexibility - a normal Sorcerer can pick from a burst or a ranged attack as an example.
And you need to spend a feat on Arcane Implement Proficiency to be able to use a heavy blade as an implement.
The upshot is that while you're not crippled, you're generally worse than either a Barbarian or a Sorcerer at any given moment unless one of the two couldn't contribute. That's not a strong choice unless you know you have to alternate between ranged and melee all the time.
If a sorcerer/barbarian were strictly better than either a sorcerer or a barbarian, it would defeat the given purpose for hybrids. You're going to be more flexible at the cost of overall power. I'm not losing flexibility because I can only take a single melee attack and a single ranged or close blast attack - I wouldn't have had the option to get the melee attack if I were a single-class sorcerer, and the same's true for a single-class barbarian.
It's also a bit unfair to compare the hybrid character to the best points of both classes without taking into account the weak points of those classes. I've started playing a dragonborn sorcerer/barbarian, and I've got better defenses than either a sorcerer or a barbarian, thanks to hide armor, Strength being used for AC, and being able to afford a good Will save. I've got better hit points than a sorcerer, meaning that I can actually stand on the front lines for all of the close blasts that I'd like to use. I can function at range, unlike a barbarian, so that means I can do something if the terrain precludes charging in.
Hybrid Warlock-Warden?
Shaman-Fighter?-no wait that could be pretty good.
If a sorcerer/barbarian were strictly better than either a sorcerer or a barbarian, it would defeat the given purpose for hybrids. You're going to be more flexible at the cost of overall power. I'm not losing flexibility because I can only take a single melee attack and a single ranged or close blast attack - I wouldn't have had the option to get the melee attack if I were a single-class sorcerer, and the same's true for a single-class barbarian.
No, the problem is that you're worse than a Barbarian in melee and generally worse than a Sorcerer at range. The one advantage you have is that after spending two feats, if you need to do one or the other, you're set. Or if you need more hit points as a Sorcerer at range.
Any time you don't need to do one or the other, you're at a 2 feat disadvantage and missing class features. A Sorcerer with a 13 Con can afford to get Hide Armor proficiency with those two feats and with another feat, can pull off melee attacks.
A hybrid Barbarian/Warlord as an example, provides the general melee damage of a Barbarian and some of the leader qualities of a Warlord - even if he's not as good a melee character as a regular Barbarian, his class features of being a Warlord function even when he's not doing Warlord attacks.
It's also a bit unfair to compare the hybrid character to the best points of both classes without taking into account the weak points of those classes. I've started playing a dragonborn sorcerer/barbarian, and I've got better defenses than either a sorcerer or a barbarian, thanks to hide armor, Strength being used for AC, and being able to afford a good Will save. I've got better hit points than a sorcerer, meaning that I can actually stand on the front lines for all of the close blasts that I'd like to use. I can function at range, unlike a barbarian, so that means I can do something if the terrain precludes charging in.
Half-Orc Barbarian with 18 Str, 18 Dex, 13 Con. Has the same AC you do, trades Reflex for Will, has two melee at-wills, better hit points, one additional rage per day once you hit 5th level+, has riders on attacks, and qualifies for weapon feats. Doesn't have to spend a feat on Hybrid to get those defenses. Has significantly better initiative. Goes for Rageblood - Rampage always potentially goes off, Swift Charge and temp hp when defeating opponents. Yeah, his Con isn't spectacular, but that just makes some of the benefits you don't get at all slightly less effective.
In short, he wipes the floor with you in melee. And people don't even like this build in general because they think it is too focused on defense as opposed to offense...I'm not saying it is unplayable, but a Barbarian/Sorcerer is not a build that just anyone should feel comfortable playing.
Hmm how about don't make:
Hybrid Warlock-Warden?
Shaman-Fighter?-no wait that could be pretty good.
Warlock-Warden has a relatively natural Str/Con relationship. Arcane Implement Proficiency means you can use a Heavy Blade as an implement. Hybrid means you get Defender level AC.
Shaman-Fighter is kind of messed up - you basically have to go Str/Wis, but you have to spend the hybrid feat on making the spirit companion work. So AC/Ref is an issue due to only starting off with Leather armor/no shield and you want the AC.
I take exception to such an inclusionary statement.
Well, my wizard *did* have Leather Proficiency at one point, but I trained it away. Her AC is already pretty good, and, between being a Staff wizard and Shield, I've got options for avoiding getting hit, if need be. Through 6th level, she's been bloodied once.
Warden-Rogue worked out pretty poorly for me first time out. Of course, I was the only defender of any kind, was first level, and the party decided to play high tier. I was actually sorta surprised I survived to make it to the last combat. Maybe I should have taken the warden armor hybrid talent...AC15 not so good.
That can work out reasonably well - pick a Dex boosting race, Str 16/Dex 18, pick up the warden hybrid talent for instant AC of 19 to start off 1st level. Just think of yourself as being a really tough Rogue who marks targets...
Yeah, I went with Revenant, 16/16/16 Str/Dex/Con, and took the Rogue Hybrid Talent to get a mace and +Str damage with rattling powers. Didn't want to be stuck with a dagger. Had there been an actual defender, I might have been all right. As the only one...no.
There's a feat in Dragon 381 which lets a Rogue do sneak damage with one-handed heavy blades. Pretty useful given that Rogues don't get auto-get the benefit of the +1 to hit with a dagger...Versatile Duelist.
If you're generally happy with a 16 in your primary attack stat, I would do it, but if you generally take an 18 in your primary attack stat, I'd make sure to have at least one of them be an 18 after racial.
- Don't just jump on the hybrid bandwagon because you can. Carefully consider whether a single class will serve better.
- Watch your minor actions. A paladin/ranger, for instance, is problematic partially because you need a minor to mark and a minor to quarry. A warlock is an exception: get a disembodied hand to use a rod of corruption and you'll be fine. Otherwise, stock up on powers, feats, and items that let you curse/quarry/mark/etc. more efficiently.
Anyone have particular combos that the've seen that should probably be stamped ``Avoid this unless you *REALLY* know what you're doing?''
Well, in the current (updated today) CB, there are 18 hybrids available. That makes... umm... maths... 153 unique hybrid combos. I'd wager that 100 or so of these are excruciatingly terrible, and another 40-ish are merely bad. :P
I've made a go at quite a few, and I find that too many of the powers are removed and covered under Hybrid Talent (and so you can get only one of them) for my taste. So far the only two I've tried that worked more or less as I liked were the Barbarian|Vestige warlock (melee and bursts/blasts) and Barbarian|Ranger (twf).
And frankly, the first can be done with just a Warlock with the right feats, and the second works better as either Barbarian or Ranger (it gets watered down when combining), with maybe a MC feat (in place of Hybrid Talent) and a single power swap feat to get that one power you really want.
Sign it.
The hybrids allow you to build Cleric | x that are much more representative of the deity. Seems pretty cool to me.
Overlapping stats for defenses when secondary stats don't at all support that. A Druid/Sorcerer as an example. You lose Str or Dex for Sorcerer and you lose Con or Int for Druid.
Druid/Controller. Druid loses 2 at-wills for 1 non-Druid at-will that does roughly what they do.
Striker/Striker(not Ranger). For the most part, they do striker damage a little more consistently, but generally less effectively. Ranger has a lot of interrupts and damage that's not too reliant on specialized circumstances.
Weapon vs. Implement. When you have to switch between a weapon in hand and an implement, this is a problem.
Race. You either want to be human(3 at-wills is amazing here), have a race that gives +2 to both primary stats and/or you're okay with an attack stat of 16 already.
But there are lots of decent starting points if you avoid those pit traps.
Archer Changeling or Drow Ranger/Bards, Barbarian/Wardens, Deva Wizards of Int/Wis, Changeling or Tiefling Wizards of Int/Cha, Warlords/Sorcerers, etc...
Well, in the current (updated today) CB, there are 18 hybrids available. That makes... umm... maths... 153 unique hybrid combos. I'd wager that 100 or so of these are excruciatingly terrible, and another 40-ish are merely bad. :P
I'm sure that's at least a slight exaggeration. Very few will be "excruciatingly terrible" except defenders with no defenses. About half of the hybrids lose any benefit from their secondary ability score (w/o Hybrid Talent), which leaves them free to have a second primary for their other class. Only a few of the hybrids lose critical class features; the others only lose things that are nice to have.
A lot of combinations may be poor from an optimization perspective, but I think very few are totally non-viable.
I think Hybrids have a wider distribution curve on effectiveness but their average is no more or less than current classes. Combos like Artificer|Barbarian makes my stomach hurt from the laughter though, just because how unexpectedly complementary they are.
From what I've seen, it's one of the few hybrid combinations that seems to have a lot of merit (offering options that straight-classes characters couldn't pull off). The other decent combinations I could find involved cleric or invoker (or both) since neither really loses much from being a hybrid.
The following seem to work well:
- Cleric/Bard (Wis/Cha)
- Cleric/Invoker (Wis/whatever)
- Invoker/Warlock (Wis/Con)
- Bard/Paladin (Wis/Cha)
- Cleric/Paladin (Wis/Cha)
- Artificer/Swordmage (Int/Con)
- Warden/Barbarian (Str/Con)
I'm sure there are many more.
Things like Barbarian|Sorcerer are examples of combos that work. You are a less-able melee combatant than a straignt Barbarian, nobody denies this, but you gain either a legitimate ranged option, or a legitimate blast/burst capability to complement your still-valuable melee ability.
Something like Fighter|Paladin is something I'm less happy with. Synergy-wise it looks like it should work out as a nice defender, but right up front you're forced to choose between a) Hybrid Talent (Paladin Armor Proficiency) and giving up any other class features like Combat Superiority, Channel Divinity, or Combat Talent which can't be duplicated by feats, or b) Hybrid Talent (one of the above choices) and several Armor Proficiency feats to catch up.
Something like Fighter|Paladin is something I'm less happy with. Synergy-wise it looks like it should work out as a nice defender, but right up front you're forced to choose between a) Hybrid Talent (Paladin Armor Proficiency) and giving up any other class features like Combat Superiority, Channel Divinity, or Combat Talent which can't be duplicated by feats, or b) Hybrid Talent (one of the above choices) and several Armor Proficiency feats to catch up.
Paladin Armor Proficiency is a terrible choice there--fighters already have scale and heavy shield, so you'd gain only plate. That makes this a great hybrid. Pick up either Combat Superiority or Combat Talent and you have an excellent build that can mark and punish in two different ways, regardless of what your opponent tries to do. Pick up Mighty Challenge to make your Divine Challenge credible. And the obvious abuse is Holy Strike, Marked Scourge, and Pit Fighter--deal +2x Wisdom to a single target with every attack, and +3x Wisdom on an at-will. Fighter|Paladin is one of the best hybrids out there, and one I expect to see a lot.
Something like Fighter|Paladin is something I'm less happy with. Synergy-wise it looks like it should work out as a nice defender, but right up front you're forced to choose between a) Hybrid Talent (Paladin Armor Proficiency) and giving up any other class features like Combat Superiority, Channel Divinity, or Combat Talent which can't be duplicated by feats, or b) Hybrid Talent (one of the above choices) and several Armor Proficiency feats to catch up.
Paladin Armor Proficiency is a terrible choice there--fighters already have scale and heavy shield, so you'd gain only plate. That makes this a great hybrid. Pick up either Combat Superiority or Combat Talent and you have an excellent build that can mark and punish in two different ways, regardless of what your opponent tries to do. Pick up Mighty Challenge to make your Divine Challenge credible. And the obvious abuse is Holy Strike, Marked Scourge, and Pit Fighter--deal +2x Wisdom to a single target with every attack, and +3x Wisdom on an at-will. Fighter|Paladin is one of the best hybrids out there, and one I expect to see a lot.
Don't forget Honored Foe.
fighters already have scale and heavy shield, so you'd gain only plate. That makes this a great hybrid. Pick up either Combat Superiority or Combat Talent and you
Oop, I was reading it wrong... Yeah, it's not as bad as I thought.
I wouldn't do an Avenger/Swordmage. I don't think they fit together well. (I could be proven wrong, but I didn't like it when I took a gander earlier today)
They're not really that bad either - armor of faith + fullblade + deva. Your weapon counts as your Avenger implement. Basically, you end up with the AC that a Swordmage in Leather armor wielding a two-handed weapon ends up with anyway. AC 17 isn't a great AC for a Defender, but it isn't bad either. And the Swordmage mark is independent of the Avenger damage.
Top it off with Overwhelming Strike + Power of Skill and you have something a lot better than Melee Training.
Avenger is also one of the few classes where a 16 starting value is more than sufficient. You could use this to start with a 20 Int/16 Wis or 18 Int/16 Wis where you put a 14/13 into two other stats.
I wouldn't do an Avenger/Swordmage. I don't think they fit together well. (I could be proven wrong, but I didn't like it when I took a gander earlier today)
They're not really that bad either - armor of faith + fullblade + deva. Your weapon counts as your Avenger implement. Basically, you end up with the AC that a Swordmage in Leather armor wielding a two-handed weapon ends up with anyway. AC 17 isn't a great AC for a Defender, but it isn't bad either. And the Swordmage mark is independent of the Avenger damage.
Top it off with Overwhelming Strike + Power of Skill and you have something a lot better than Melee Training.
Avenger is also one of the few classes where a 16 starting value is more than sufficient. You could use this to start with a 20 Int/16 Wis or 18 Int/16 Wis where you put a 14/13 into two other stats.
For me, the real issue is that you can't gain channel divinity without completely sacraficing armor, and I think that Channel Divinity is important to the build and character concept. Without the Armor, I am not convinced that having the low damage dealing Swordmage is worth adding to a Avenger.
For me, the real issue is that you can't gain channel divinity without completely sacraficing armor, and I think that Channel Divinity is important to the build and character concept. Without the Armor, I am not convinced that having the low damage dealing Swordmage is worth adding to a Avenger.
The advantage of Swordmage is that you act as an off-defender and you add burst powers. Enemies surround you to kill your Oath, you burst them - and it isn't at all hard to make that a burst 2 or 3. Enemies don't surround you, you concentrate on your target in a more effective way than a Swordmage does while still being able to basically mark them - or someone else for that matter.
I don't think concentrating on the Channel Divinity is a good idea for a hybrid Avenger in any case. You're giving up Armor of Faith to do that and that means spending a significant number of feats on defenses(and therefore investing in Str/Con)
I realize that Channel Divinities are a narrow thing, to begin with, but there are some of them that are really neat, and I think that there will be hybrids that take advantage of them. It just didn't work out for me with that particular build.
On the other hand, it looks like my Minotaur Fighter/Artificer is going to rock.
But that's more my point, though. If I want to have a character that takes advantage of Channel Divinity, I have to eliminate half the Divine Class Options from my list, or play a Wizard/Warlock/Sorcerer.
Then it's not so much that the swordmage|avenger combo is bad, it's that you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you're excited about a specific class feature that's only (fully) available in nonhybrid form, then it's a no-brainer. But that's not so much a comment on the hybrid combination as it is on that particular concept/build.
For me, the real issue is that you can't gain channel divinity without completely sacraficing armor, and I think that Channel Divinity is important to the build and character concept. Without the Armor, I am not convinced that having the low damage dealing Swordmage is worth adding to a Avenger.
Nah, just take the multiclass feat in Divine Power that gives you CD. It's only requirement is Wis 13 and trained in religion. (or was it just trained in Religion?) Then you don't have to worry about blowing your Hybrid Talent feat on it.
For me, the real issue is that you can't gain channel divinity without completely sacraficing armor, and I think that Channel Divinity is important to the build and character concept. Without the Armor, I am not convinced that having the low damage dealing Swordmage is worth adding to a Avenger.
Nah, just take the multiclass feat in Divine Power that gives you CD. It's only requirement is Wis 13 and trained in religion. (or was it just trained in Religion?) Then you don't have to worry about blowing your Hybrid Talent feat on it.
Which just goes to show that I don't know my options well enough. :D
For me, the real issue is that you can't gain channel divinity without completely sacraficing armor, and I think that Channel Divinity is important to the build and character concept. Without the Armor, I am not convinced that having the low damage dealing Swordmage is worth adding to a Avenger.
Nah, just take the multiclass feat in Divine Power that gives you CD. It's only requirement is Wis 13 and trained in religion. (or was it just trained in Religion?) Then you don't have to worry about blowing your Hybrid Talent feat on it.
That is only a Daily, though as opposed to Encounter. And you can't take the Avenger Channel Divinity, if that's what's important.
Mechanically, it is viable as is. The issue is, Kensan, whether or not you feel comfortable playing it.
Funny part is that I don't generally consider the Avenger a really viable class unless you go outside of it. I wouldn't have considered the Avenger/Swordmage as a solid option, but now I'm intrigued by the possibility of playing it - odds are, if you can't use the Oath, you have viable burst targets...
That is only a Daily, though as opposed to Encounter. And you can't take the Avenger Channel Divinity, if that's what's important.
True dat. But it's something.
Since a decent Avenger is going to be Dex secondary anyway, this opens up a neat selection of Rogue|Avenger and Ranger|Avenger, and ranged weapons.
But, it also opens up Avenger|Invoker and Avenger|Wizard. With the Invoker, you can choose from two at-wills which are considered ranged basic attacks. With the Wizard, you get Magic Missile. Either way, you are able to deal ranged smack-down with two d20 rolls as long as you are within 10 squares of your oath target and have no enemies around you.
Also, once PHB3 comes out with Hybrid rules for the Seeker class, I expect to see a few Avenger|Seekers using that feat to be able to gain ranged OoE with those Seeker encounter powers which can count as ranged basic attacks.
As for what *not* to make:
Avenger|Sorcerer does *not* work stat-wise. I'm just saying.
Also, Cleric|Fighter - You end up being a less effective Warlord who can't give INIT bonus, can't give an action point bonus and can only heal once per encounter without taking utility powers or MC feats. On the plus side, you *do* get Chain prof. so you don't have to focus on Dex or Int for your AC stats.
There's a new Avenger feat in the builder (I think it's from Dragon 382) which lets you gain your Oath of Enmity benefit when hitting your oath target with Ranged Basic Attacks.
Since a decent Avenger is going to be Dex secondary anyway, this opens up a neat selection of Rogue|Avenger and Ranger|Avenger, and ranged weapons.
But, it also opens up Avenger|Invoker and Avenger|Wizard. With the Invoker, you can choose from two at-wills which are considered ranged basic attacks. With the Wizard, you get Magic Missile. Either way, you are able to deal ranged smack-down with two d20 rolls as long as you are within 10 squares of your oath target and have no enemies around you.
Actualy that doesnt work as the hybrid Avenger only gets OoE on Avenger attacks.
There's a new Avenger feat in the builder (I think it's from Dragon 382) which lets you gain your Oath of Enmity benefit when hitting your oath target with Ranged Basic Attacks.
Since a decent Avenger is going to be Dex secondary anyway, this opens up a neat selection of Rogue|Avenger and Ranger|Avenger, and ranged weapons.
But, it also opens up Avenger|Invoker and Avenger|Wizard. With the Invoker, you can choose from two at-wills which are considered ranged basic attacks. With the Wizard, you get Magic Missile. Either way, you are able to deal ranged smack-down with two d20 rolls as long as you are within 10 squares of your oath target and have no enemies around you.
Actualy that doesnt work as the hybrid Avenger only gets OoE on Avenger attacks.
Actually, the feat (specific) overrides the class feature (general). So, yes it would. But, again, only for ranged basic attacks. Let's face it: magic missile isn't *that* powerful ...
Don't be surprised at table variation on the ranged basic that isn't an avenger power thing. Some DMs will argue that the limitation to avenger only powers is a specific that the new feat does not override, even though the new feat doesn't actually override the melee restriction but just adds a new option wholesale. This is the kind of thing that I expect hybrid rules will run afoul of from time to time - rules written assuming you have one class that suddenly go 'Oh, hybrids. Uhh, right. Umm. Uhhh'
Actually, the feat (specific) overrides the class feature (general). So, yes it would. But, again, only for ranged basic attacks. Let's face it: magic missile isn't *that* powerful ...
That's not quite right - it gives you the benefit of your oath of enmity. But that then leads to the important question - what is the benefit of the hybrid oath of enmity on a non-Avenger power? Two attack rolls(that then can't be used) or nothing?
I think it is the 2nd.
Actually, the feat (specific) overrides the class feature (general). So, yes it would. But, again, only for ranged basic attacks. Let's face it: magic missile isn't *that* powerful ...
That's not quite right - it gives you the benefit of your oath of enmity. But that then leads to the important question - what is the benefit of the hybrid oath of enmity on a non-Avenger power? Two attack rolls(that then can't be used) or nothing?
I think it is the 2nd.
I think you are incorrect. You might consider looking at all of the sources, along with a special case that breaks your being able to say "No."
So, pardon any typos:
Oath of Enmity
Your god gives you the power to strike down your chosen prey. You gain the oath of enmity power.
Oath of Enmity Avenger Feature
You focus your wrath on a single foe, giving your attacks against it extraordinary accuracy.
Encounter (Special) * Divine
Minor Action Close burst 10
Target: One enemy you see in burst
Effect: When you make a melee attack against the target and the target is the only enemy adjacent to you, you make two attack rolls and use either result. This effect lasts until the end of the encounter or until the target drops to 0 hit points, at which point you regain the use of this power.
If another effect lets you roll twice and use the higher result when making an attack roll, this power has no effect on that attack. If an effect forces you to roll twice and use the lower result when making an attack roll, this power has no effect on that attack either.
If an effect lets you reroll an attack roll and you rolled twice because of this power, you reroll both dice.
Oath of Enmity (Hybrid)
You gain the avenger power oath of enmity. The power functions as normal, except that you can apply the effect only when you make a melee attack using an avenger power or an avenger paragon path power.
Feat: Distant Vengeance
Tier: Heroic
Prerequisites: Avenger, oath of enmity power
As long as you are within 10 squares of your oath of enmity target and no other enemies are adjacent to you, you gain the benefit of your oath of enmity on all ranged basic attacks against your oath of enmity target.
Source: Dragon Magazine 382
Avenging Shackles Avenger Attack 1
Your prayers call for your enemy to stumble before you, and your enemy i bathed in radiant light that sears like fire.
At-Will * Divine,Implement, Radiant
Standard action Ranged 5
Target: One creature
Attack: Wisdom vs. Will
Hit: 1d8 + Wisdom modifier radiant damage. If the target is your oath of enmity target, the target os also slowed until the end of your next turn.
Special: You can use this power in place of a ranged basic attack.
Source: Dragon Magazine 382
Add these things all together, and you wind up either saying, "No, you can't use Distant Vengeance with Avenging Shackles, even though you should be able to." or "Yes, you can use your oath of enmity with any ranged basic attacks because of Distant Vengeance."
So, which way do you go? Remember that, normally, oath of enmity doesn't apply to ranged attacks, except when an exception is built into the attack, so the feat adds capabilty to the oath of vengeance. Are you really going to rule that it only works for full Avengers, not Hybrid Avengers? Both types of Avenger meet the prequisites for the feat.
Add these things all together, and you wind up either saying, "No, you can't use Distant Vengeance with Avenging Shackles, even though you should be able to." or "Yes, you can use your oath of enmity with any ranged basic attacks because of Distant Vengeance."
So, which way do you go? Remember that, normally, oath of enmity doesn't apply to ranged attacks, except when an exception is built into the attack, so the feat adds capabilty to the oath of vengeance. Are you really going to rule that it only works for full Avengers, not Hybrid Avengers? Both types of Avenger meet the prequisites for the feat.
You're going to argue intent on this one?
Just because you meet the prereqs of a feat does not mean that the feat will benefit you. Nor does it mean you were intended to benefit from a feat. Half-Elves qualify for Elven Guardian, as an example.
Yes, sure, I'd rule that Distant Vengeance only works for full Avengers from a strictly RAW perspective - Avenging Shackles isn't a melee Avenger power. From an intent perspective, I'd let an Avenger use it on Avenging Shackles, but not non-Avenger powers. They obviously intended that hybrid Avengers not be able to use Oath on non-Avenger powers(they can't even use them on MBAs), but I think the melee-only part was just them being specific that it couldn't work on a ranged Avenger power.
Some are trying to see the flow of alterations as:
OoE <-- Hybrid OoE <-- Distant Vengeance
Where Distant Advanatge is altering the Hybrid OoE which alters the OoE. IOW, a general being overridden by a specific being overridden by a specific.
When what it really is is:
Distant Advantage --> OoE <-- Hybrid OoE
Where both the Hybrid rules and the feat are altering how OoE work. IOW, you have 2 specific rules overriding the same general rule.
So while Distant Vengeance allows you to do so with any ranged basic attack the Hybrid rules also kick in and say the OoE can only be done with Avenger powers. Which basically means that for Hybrids, the feat doesn't do them much good.
This is a problem with Hybrids because they're an inelegant hack-job (my opinion) added in to a system that was designed with the Multiclass syetm in mind. So while the MC rules are written to make it clear when you qualify for prereqs or not so you can be assured that your feat will work (which for some reason still causes a lot of debate with Slaying Action) in the MC system, Hybrids kind of fall apart in this regard.
When what it really is is:
Distant Advantage --> OoE <-- Hybrid OoE
So are we also saying
Backstabber --> Sneak Attack <-- Hybrid Sneak Attack
so that Backstabber doesn't help a Hybrid Rogue's sneak attack?
So are we also saying
Backstabber --> Sneak Attack <-- Hybrid Sneak Attack
so that Backstabber doesn't help a Hybrid Rogue's sneak attack?
Backstabber and Hybrid Rogue do not say anything that is mutually exclusive regarding damage dice of Sneak Attack. If Hybrid Rogue said "...and you can only do 1d6 per tier of damage", then Backstabber would do nothing for Rogues. IMO.
o are we also saying
Backstabber --> Sneak Attack <-- Hybrid Sneak Attack
so that Backstabber doesn't help a Hybrid Rogue's sneak attack?
The limit on Hybrid Sneak Attack is the must use a Rogue power. So if a hybrid is using a non-Rogue power, then yes, he doesn't get to benefit from Backstabber because he's not getting sneak attack...
The limit on Hybrid Sneak Attack is the must use a Rogue power. So if a hybrid is using a non-Rogue power, then yes, he doesn't get to benefit from Backstabber because he's not getting sneak attack...
Ah now I get what was being asked ...
When what it really is is:
Distant Advantage --> OoE <-- Hybrid OoE
So are we also saying
Backstabber --> Sneak Attack <-- Hybrid Sneak Attack
so that Backstabber doesn't help a Hybrid Rogue's sneak attack?
Oh, come on now. This isn't even the same situation. (although, your directional flow of alterations is correct)
Special damage effects (Sneak Attack, Hunter's Quarry, Warlock's Curse) only work with those class attacks - you don't get them even with your MBA/RBA. This can significantly lower your DPR as a striker hybrid, unless you plan carefully.
Paladin's Divine Challenge becomes an Immediate Reaction, and it is weaker (CHA mod instead of 3+CHA Mod, at first level).
To be a Ritual Caster will cost you a feat, one way or another.
As a divine class hybrid, you will lose your basic Channel Divinity features (Healer's Mercy, Turn Undead, Divine Mettle, etc) unless you spend your HT feat to get them. You can get access to other CD feats by spending several feats and your multiclass slot, but you will never be able to take your class 'base' CD powers without spending the HT feat. That means as a Cleric hybrid, you won't ever have Healer's Mercy without spending your HT feat to get it.
In some cases, certain features of a class simply vanish when you choose hybrid - you can't get them as a hybrid, no matter what you do.
0.) If your FLGS has opted in to the Wizards retailer program, then they have the book for sale now (I got mine last week).
1.) Hybrids have their own version of paragon path replacement, that I'll call ``Paragon Hybridclassing'', that works more or less like paragon multiclassing except that the basic benefit is a free, doesn't-count-for-limit hybrid talent feat at 11. This opens up the possibility of having the hybrid talent feat 3 times at 11th, which is can change some builds.
In general, I've seen a little more hybrid in play at low levels, and it still feels like the old 3.5 builds that were awful to play until mod/high levels. Leader|Nonleader hybrids are weak healers (doable with the right party, super-painful with the wrong party), and Defender hybrids need a very friendly GM or an explicit ``I Am Not A Defender'' label.
I haven't seen it in play yet, but I wonder if Battlemind|Swordmage (shielding) might be ok, since Battlemind is basically a single-stat Con-based defender. Sadly, the hybrid battlemind is badly worded, making it not entirely clear that you get the marking power at all. If you do, then you can take the punishment feature, and it triggers off the marked condition, so you could use it instead of the hybrid aegis if you wanted, first reducing damage and then dealing it back in later rounds. Also, neither class apears in the other's ``Suggested Combinations'', so you know that's a good sign.
1.) Hybrids have their own version of paragon path replacement, that I'll call ``Paragon Hybridclassing'', that works more or less like paragon multiclassing except that the basic benefit is a free, doesn't-count-for-limit hybrid talent feat at 11. This opens up the possibility of having the hybrid talent feat 3 times at 11th, which is can change some builds.
In general, I've seen a little more hybrid in play at low levels, and it still feels like the old 3.5 builds that were awful to play until mod/high levels. Leader|Nonleader hybrids are weak healers (doable with the right party, super-painful with the wrong party), and Defender hybrids need a very friendly GM or an explicit ``I Am Not A Defender'' label.
I don't think you can take Hybrid Talent more than once as a feat, meaning you can get a second by going Paragon Hybrid.
I generally play at tables with at least three hybrids. Most I've seen work pretty well.
Warlock|Shielding or Assualt Swordmage = great fun, and versatility.
Barbarian| Assualt Swordmage= pretty much a barb with a good ac and some fun interupts.
Barbarian|Sorcerer= can be either a sorc with some melee, or a barb with an aura..or a take barb armor to get a nice 18 AC at level 1
Paladin|Fighter= a versatile defender with multi-marking capabilites.
Fighter|warden= a versatile defender with multi-marking capabilites.
I don't think you can take Hybrid Talent more than once as a feat, meaning you can get a second by going Paragon Hybrid.
You are correct. I had mistakenly thought it was `once per tier', but instead it's just ``you can take a second at 11 if you don't take a paragon path'' (i.e. Paragon Hybridclassing).
I generally play at tables with at least three hybrids. Most I've seen work pretty well.
...
Paladin|Fighter= a versatile defender with multi-marking capabilites.
Fighter|warden= a versatile defender with multi-marking capabilites.
Are you starting above 1st level, by chance? Because neither of those multi-marking defenders can multi-mark as far as I know... I'm really feeling like hybrid defenders are especially weak, so I'm eager to learn that I missed something. :-)
Thanks.
Are you starting above 1st level, by chance? Because neither of those multi-marking defenders can multi-mark as far as I know... I'm really feeling like hybrid defenders are especially weak, so I'm eager to learn that I missed something.
Paladin|Fighter - can divine challenge and use Fighter powers to mark.
Fighter|Warden - can use Fighter powers to mark and free action mark one adjacent opponent.
Hybrid Defenders who intend to be primary Defenders really should be spending their Hybrid Talent feat immediately at 1st level on gaining Defender level defenses. There are very few exceptions to this. As an example, a build with a starting Dex or Int of 18 who won't be a Swordmage.
A Defender who has a 16 AC is going to fall down a lot harder and faster than most Defenders...
A Defender who has a 16 AC is going to fall down a lot harder and faster than most Defenders...
I've tried a warlock|swordmage and a ranger|cleric. The warlock|swordmage I think has a lot of potential, but so far she's like a tougher warlock who doesn't get some features. The ranger|cleric (elf archer) has rocked from day one- lots of damage and pretty effective healing as well.
So far Assassin/Ranger is the build I'm most looking forward to seeing
I'll have to wait until 6th level to pick up my CD feat (going through Divine Channeler/Paladin), but he's a solid secondary combatant, especially using Aid Another to assist the main tank (a paladin).
I've got a level 7 Fighter/Warden ('/' not '|' if you catch my meaning) with two multiclass feats: the basic multiclass feat that gives the burst mark once per encounter, and the encounter power swap feat to get the Close Burst level 1 encounter attack power. What it means is that I'm still 100% Fighter (using up only one more feat than a fighter|warden with the Hybrid Talent feat), with 4 encounter powers (three attacks and the warden MC) and 1 daily power that can mark in a close burst - and the mark-triggered power is the Fighter one, which I find better than the Warden one. I even have the option, for just one more feat, of getting an encounter start-of-turn saving throw, and could consider one or two more power swap feats if I really wanted more Warden powers.
In the end, I'd far rather be a full Fighter, with all the class features but down two extra feats, who can still do much of what a Warden can do. The sort-of Fighter combined with a sort-of Warden doesn't really do it for me.
That really limits things for me too. Some classes just lose too much when they become hybrids. The Warden is a good example. A hybrid Warden kinda needs to take Warden Armored Defense as it's hybrid feat so it can't get Font of Life, and then it doesn't really feel like a Warden to me anymore. It's probably balanced, and I'm sure you can build some really good combos with it, but I don't really want to play that character. I'd rather just play a full Warden. There are several classes like that, where you lose something that feels really iconic to the class.
I think of classes like these as good "support classes." When I make a hybrid, I think of it as a mix of between 25% and 75% of each class. If you think of Wardens as being 50% or more of the build, then you're right, they're not very good (although consider Armor Proficiency: Chainmail to preserve their AC), but if you use them as 25%-33% of a fighter, paladin, or battlemind, you have a very solid defender that works, in some ways, better than a pure version of the other class.
I have a swordmage|warlock, that works well when he can hit (Catch-22 build); an artificer|shaman, that works great for buffing other people (an average of about +8 damage per attack every round for multiple allies), though I really wish the MC shaman feats weren't so much better than being a hybrid shaman; and a rogue|warlord that hasn't been tested yet, but who is designed to make sneak attacks when they present themselves and tell someone else to attack when they don't. (BTW, shamans and warlords make particularly interesting hybrids, because they can get away with having a dump stat in their supposed "primary" attack stat.)
The link in my .sig is the result.
- Razorclaw shifter Rogue|Shaman, currently being playing in the D&D Encounters. Highlights include being able to flank with his spirit companion every other round (as long as he hits with Stalker's Strike) or just getting CA from having an ally adjacent to the target with Clever Strike.
- Watersoul Genasi Warlord|Shaman, who likes to boss her allies around and keep them healthy to follow her directions. Highlights include being able to heal a dying ally, tell them to stand up (with Knight's Move) and then tell them to go attack something.
- Human Warlock (Infernal) |Swordmage (Assault) who I consider firmly in the controller role, more than defender or striker. His level 1 powers are Hellish Rebuke, Swordburst, Blazing Pursuit (I think that's the name of it) and Armor of Agaithys.
- Goliath Fighter|Battlemind. I haven't played him yet, but he's awesome on paper. He took blurred step instead of mind spike, so when someone he has marked shifts away, he can use an imm. interrupt to smack them with a MBA and then shift after them with an opp. action.
- Kenku (if I remember) Monk|Cleric. At level 2, this guy will take the Pacifist healer feat. He will focus on non-bloodied enemies and deal his flurry of blows damage to bloodied enemies. His cleric at-will is Recovery Strike at level 1 but it will be retrained at level 2 for Astral Seal.
If you have a little imagination, the vast majority of the hybrid combinations can work decently. I don't know about survivability once they get into paragon, but they look nice on paper. I hope to have the Warlord|Shaman and Monk|Pacifist Cleric at least to level 8 or 9 by the time Dragon*Con comes around.
Dwarf Druid/Cleric level 10 (planning to go Spiral Wind's Ally) - que "Would the real druid please stand up?" - I can efficiently cover the healer role and the controller role. I mainly strove for this to give the druid the ability to heal like it had in the previous editions of D&D. Oh and he rides a hippogriff dreadmount! Current powers are: Grasping Tide, Astral Seal, Call forth the spirit pack, Tundra Wind, Zealous Sanction, Fires of Life, Vine Serpents, Flame Strike, Mounted Coordination, Stream of life, Swift Recovery (skill power feat), and Goodberry.
Dragonborn Ranger/Sorcerer Level 4 (planning to go Impilturan Demonslayer) - Only way I could really build a demon hunter like I wanted to play. At the beginning of this thread people were saying it would be a poor choice to take a melee class and stick it with a cloth wearer...however when you choose strength based sorcerer you get to add your strength modifier to AC, and well thats awesome. Current powers are: Acid Orb, Twin Strike, Off-hand Strike, Flame Spiral, Dragonflame Mantle, and Jaws of the Wolf.
Perhaps I'll see you at dragoncon