Also what does the retraining when errata come sout mean? Say I'm playing a Hunter Ranger based around Throw and Stab and an eventual future as a pitfighter and Throw and Stab gets errated [like it did] which throws off my ideas for the build. Does the retraining option mean I get to rebuild my character from the race and class up, or does it mean I just get to retrain the powers that got errated?
I'm a bit new to playing LFR and RPGA games so please bare with me. I mean I only have two adventures under the rnager's belt so if I have to start from scratch again that's fine but I really just want to have a good gauge on what leeway I get in case I get hit with the nerf bat down the road when I have a longer runnign character.
Thanks alot.
Whenever your character gains a level, you may retrain out any and all character-based rules options, except for the following:
• Your character race (you may retrain race-based options that you chose)
• Your character class (you may retrain your build)
So, in answer to your questions:
- Yes, you can change ability scores
- Yes, if you're making a change due to a change in how a power works, you can change other things which were related to how you'd built the character to use that power.
Does this allow a level 11 character to swap out all 7 of his feats for Paragon level feats?
That's an interesting question, and I'm not certain of the answer.
By the standard retraining rules, you *can* swap out Heroic-tier feats for Paragon-tier feats, once per level -- because you can only retrain one rules option per level. How the RPGA's more permissive retraining handles this, I'm not entirely positive. By the rules as written, I'm not certain that it's *not* allowed.
I unapologetically retrain attributes at 4, 8, 11, 14 levels to keep all evens. I swap out feats and class features whenever the latest shiny comes out. Nothing seems sacred to me.
And yet, I hesitate about what I feel to be clearly within the LFR ruleset - retraining more Heroic feats into Paragon feats than you normally could.
I guess we each have our own line in the sand...
OK, just looking for a little clarification, I apologise if this has been covered elsewhere. But the Hybrid for assassin just hit cha builder. So I suppose this question would have been addressed when PH3 came out. But under the LFR retraing rules can i rebuild my assassin into an assassin rouge, or would i have to start from 1rst level again?
In regards to paragon feat retraining, I am inclined to say no, but I am not sure there is a rules lawyer proof quote for that (if there is such a thing) ;) I will mention it to the people working on the new character creation rules.
Mind you, just looking at the characters in the home campaigns I play in I really wonder why you would want such an extensive retrain of heroic feats, but I admit rarely going actively for the best build possible (and DPR is definitely not on the top of my mind when creating characters).
Edit: the addition of one word can mean so much ;)
In regards to paragon feat retraining, I am inclined to say no, but I am not sure there is a rules lawyer proof quote for that (if there is such a thing) ;) I will mention it to the people working on the new character creation rules.
You're right, there's no rules lawyer proof quote. The retraining rules for organized play say:
"Whenever your character gains a level, you may retrain out any and all character-based rules options, except for the following: [race and class]"
Emphasis mine. So a player could, once they gain a level, retrain out every power, stat, class feature where possible (such from a battlerager fighter to a brawler fighter), and feat they have so long as they keep their class and race.
Mind you, just looking at the characters in the home campaigns I play in I really wonder why you would want such an extensive retrain of heroic feats, but I admit rarely going actively for the best build possible (and DPR is definitely on the top of my mind when creating characters).
Well, that's totally character dependent. Some characters just aren't all that invested in their heroic feats. Some are. Those that are won't be particularly inclined to bypass the natural progression. Those that just don't care a whole lot are more likely to leap for the shiny at paragon.
My wizard becomes a VERY different character at paragon (WoST). Many of his heroic feats get irrelevant pretty quick. My swordmage has a more organic flow, and retraining anything out is a sacrifice.
I mean, is an 11th level guy with more than 2 paragon feats legal?
The intent is clear - change your previous choices until you are happy.
The fine print is muddy - it uses the word retrain and thus falls under the 'retrain heroic to paragon feat' rules text unbrella.
But does it allow you to retrain the choice you made at sixth level or does it allow you to make unlimited retrains at the level you're at (11th)?
While the retraining rule is very generous (and generally appreciated - I certainly have taken advantage of it with two of my PCs), I don't think it allows you to create what could be called an illegal character.
I mean, is an 11th level guy with more than 2 paragon feats legal?
The intent is clear - change your previous choices until you are happy.
The fine print is muddy - it uses the word retrain and thus falls under the 'retrain heroic to paragon feat' rules text unbrella.
But does it allow you to retrain the choice you made at sixth level or does it allow you to make unlimited retrains at the level you're at (11th)?
My guess is that it is intentionally broadly written so as to allow the least chance of someone showing up at a table only to be told that their character is not legal because it was "overly retrained". By allowing everything, it's virtually unpossible to show up with something that you've fiddled with to the point of illegality.
Twiddle with the ability scores - no problem.
More paragon feats than paragon levels - no problem.
Rules update make you change the entire character concept? - no problem, just fix it so that it's still the same race and class, and you're legal.
(Realizing that this might give WOTC/Tulach for more foresight than others would credit to them, but more than happy to give them the benefit of the doubt, given the massive amount of errata to the system that we've seen over the past year. The more flexible they make the rules for the player, the easier it is for the player to adapt to the changes.)
You can have a max of two Paragon feats at 11th level, four at 12th, five at 13th, etc.. You may not retrain all your heroic feats to Paragon Feats at 11th.
I'll have to rustle up a cite on that, though, if you really need one.
You can have a max of two Paragon feats at 11th level, four at 12th, five at 13th, etc.. You may not retrain all your heroic feats to Paragon Feats at 11th.
I'll have to rustle up a cite on that, though, if you really need one.
A cite would be nice, as the CCG retraining rules are different than the PHB retraining rules. CCG says that you "...may retrain out any and all character-based rules options..."
PHB says:
"You can replace heroic tier feats (see page
193) with higher-tier feats, but only one at a time, once
per level you gain. For instance, at 11th level, you gain
one feat and you can also retrain one of your heroic
tier feats, gaining a paragon tier feat in its place. At
12th level you can do the same, so you can potentially
have four paragon tier feats at 12th level. (You might
find that many of your heroic tier feats remain worthwhile
well into higher levels, however.)"
PHB goes by the one-feat-per-level retrain rule, so under that rule, the most Paragon feats you could have trained in is one-per-level. Again, CCG says you can retrain any and all, so this would seem to trump the PHB rule.
Just IMO of course.
You are not allowed to retrain your class, so you cannot switch to a hybrid.
However, you can switch Multiclasses every level, if you wanted to. :D
I'm so tempted to switch my Multiclass Shaman from Wizard to Psion... I won't, but I'm tempted.
You can have a max of two Paragon feats at 11th level, four at 12th, five at 13th, etc.. You may not retrain all your heroic feats to Paragon Feats at 11th.
I'll have to rustle up a cite on that, though, if you really need one.
This is a case where "should be" and "is" don't line up I'm afraid.
You are not allowed to retrain your class, so you cannot switch to a hybrid.
However, you can switch Multiclasses every level, if you wanted to. :D
Yes, and a Revenant can have a new past life every level. Also, you can switch gender every level.
Also, you can switch gender every level.
That's not a character based rules option. ;)
You can have a max of two Paragon feats at 11th level, four at 12th, five at 13th, etc.. You may not retrain all your heroic feats to Paragon Feats at 11th.
I'll have to rustle up a cite on that, though, if you really need one.
You will need one because, AFAIK, there is no such rule anywhere in the PHB. Joe_Shill did a good job pointing out the difference between the two retrain rules. Normally you couldn't just dump everything and retrain it, so technically, it's not illegal.
IIRC, if you level a PC to 11th in the CB and go to the feat selection screen you can reselect everything as paragon feats and I don't think it calls you out on it. I'd have to experiment with that to find out if that's correct.
Which is as it should be, and will be enforced at my tables, barring official clarification for LFR.
If you could retrain two items each level, you could have three paragon feats at 11th level and five at 12th level.
You can retrain every rules item each level in LFR.
The problem is that the CCG should not have described what was going on as retraining. A better way to describe what is going on is rebuilding, which must result at the end in a character that would be legal if leveled and retrained according to the standard core rules.
I'd consider this the intent of the rules, but nothing in the rules as written actually specifies this.
I'd consider this the intent of the rules, but nothing in the rules as written actually specifies this.
Exactly. And it's the way that I do it, but I'd not break Wheaton's Law if someone else did it the other way.
Nope. When you highlight one of your selected Feats from levels 1 to 10, those Feats with Paragon prereq do not appear above as available selections.
Which is as it should be, and will be enforced at my tables, barring official clarification for LFR.
You're right. They must have changed it because I'm pretty sure it used to let you do that.
Yes, and a Revenant can have a new past life every level. Also, you can switch gender every level.
Do you really need to wait till your next level to switch Genders? Isn't that what Changlings are for?