I have made, but not yet played, a rogue character, mostly fashioned after Indiana Jones, that is from Netheril. Looking through his diety options, the one I like best is Bane - it seems to fit a Netherese background despite it being a Sharran country. I won't be multiclassing into anything Divine, so I have no need to be the same alignment as my diety, but I don't want to play this guy as an Unaligned worshipper of Bane and have to change it down the road. Does this sound like a valid character?
Ravaerris Jones, Human rogue, Unaligned worshipper of Bane from Netheril, mostly into adventuring to find relics from Netheril's past, reclaiming them for his country. In it for the fortune and glory, but if he can help people along the way, that sits well with him.
Not sure how that would fit with your character that your the clergy of your chosen god feels that way.
I'd put indy more of a Tymora/Oghma worshipper, luck and knowledge being the path to his fortune and glory.
Ah, that blurb from the Campaign Guide did really muddy things for me, too. The way I see it, as a follower, not a priest or paladin, he will have no real "dedication" to Bane. I was keying off of the following from the FR Player's Guide:
✦ Strive ceaselessly to dominate your environment.
✦ Be merciless in the execution of your duties, and show no pity to the weak.
✦ Respect tradition and authority.
With a mind towards Netheril, and the return of verdant land, plus the country's expansionist ways, it seemed a great fit.
Ironically, part of why I took Netheril as my origin country was to get Arcana and History as class skills - it just started me down a path of "what if Indy was from a country that wanted to take over the world?" So while my character is heavily inspired by Indy, he is not quite the same thing. I'm thinking Indiana Jones' lust for adventure, his tendancy to be too brave for his own good, his charm, and his desire to reclaim artifacts from the past; but with him raised in a country that has established itself quickly as a force to be feared - he can't think of Netheril as evil, just stronger than other countries in the area, and looking to get back what belongs to Netheril.
Does this sound like a valid character?
No. Page one of the CCG: An LFR PC cannot worship an evil or chaotic evil deity. Yes, this might be an interesting character, but one man's interesting character is another player's excuse to play an evil character while claiming to be neutral, or if nothing else, may cause difficulties with players who are roleplaying a straight-up heroic character.
Hence, the simple rule: You cannot worship an evil or chaotic evil deity. It doesn't matter if you're divine or not; it doesn't matter if he's formally your patron deity or not. You can't play a worshiper of Bane.
The particular deity not seeming central to this theme, I'd probably recommend you just leave it out. Alternatively, Mathammor Duin, the demigod of explorers, wouldn't be a bad fit.
Does this sound like a valid character?
No. Page one of the CCG: An LFR PC cannot worship an evil or chaotic evil deity.
Wow. I cannot believe I didn't see that. I think I read the LFR section twice just to make sure it didn't say anything about that, only to miss it on page 1. Thanks!
Luck or Knowlegde.... Knowledge probably fits Netheril better.
Note that - aside the fact that you can't worship evil deities in LFR - most evil deities are not very fit to work in an adventuring party. They are either too destructive or intolerant. Even unaligned clerics or worshippers will have a problem keeping Asmodeus, Ghanadaur, Gruumsh, Lolth, Shar, Talona, or Cyric from disrupting the harmony.
Outside LFR, ina a home campaign, you could work with a few deities as patrons for unaligned (and sometimes even good) characters (NPCs or PCs):
There are a few deities that may work, if you set up the character right (knowing you'll be following your own doghma, and stay open for the possibility of conflict with other 'fellow' priests).
These are generally the leser deities and exarchs who (aside from their own evil portfolio) embody a concept: Malar (beasts), Auril (winter), Umberlee (sea), or Loviatar (pain). Focusing on that aspect (and ignoring the deity's personal evil character) can allow you to play such a worshipper in a party.
Bane may work, but domination generally disrupts the harmony. Hoar is a better deity - especially as most people believe he is allied with Torm.
Beshaba can be fun if you use her as 'the other coin of fate' vs. Tymora - but expect a lot of friction when Tymora worship comes up unless you also worship Tymora (i.e. pay homage to them both, as they both are part of Tyche - my invoker of Tymora deals with Beshaba that way).
Note that you may still find intolereance (in PCs and NPCs), regardless of how nice you are: while your PC may be non-evil, even good, other worshippers of the deity may perform horrible acts, giving you a reputation you amy not necessarily - personally - deserve, and that may cause serious friction
As for a deity for your PC: Oghma, may work. Then again, Tymora is a good fit for any adventurer.
Gomez
Indy didn't strike me as particularly religious. He looked for religious artifacts, but I don't remember him ever praying or anything. As a non-divine character, you don't have to worship a specific deity. If I was making an Indy character I don't know if I'd pick a god for him to worship.
Regardless of the legality of Bane, remember that Bane is the arch-nemesis of Netheril. He even has an exarch purely devoted to fight Netheril.
As a non-divine character, you don't have to worship a specific deity. If I was making an Indy character I don't know if I'd pick a god for him to worship.
That is a really good point. I do have a bit of a hard time with what amounts to atheists in a world where gods can literally come around and mess with things, so I think some kind of distant worship is important for any character.
Regardless of the legality of Bane, remember that Bane is the arch-nemesis of Netheril. He even has an exarch purely devoted to fight Netheril.
Yeah, I didn't really see that in the Player's Guide, but it was pretty evident in the Campaign Guide. I wanted him to be a citizen of Netheril, but Shar just didn't fit in my first plans at all. Oghma should be an excellent fit, and he will have to just be slightly at odds with his countrymen when it comes to faith.
Gomez, thanks for the reply, but a lot of what you wrote went over my head. I'm not familiar enough with the FR pantheon to get down to the detail that you can.
Indy didn't strike me as particularly religious.
He certainly isn't initially, as he says "I don't believe in all that hocus pocus" in Tomb Raider when Marcus brings up the idea God doesn't want the Arc found.
Yup, I agree. But Indy changed his attitude a litle after being chained up with his girl and watching the holy ghosts roaming around zapping Nazi's and of course, his old buddy Belloch.
Modern atheism is a lot harder to "believe" (irony intended) in a game setting where magic works, and divine magic in particular works. What we would call a divine miracle nowadays is fairly commonplace in D&D. I don't think you would find many atheists (if any at all) in a fantasy setting like LFR.
More likely, you might find the kind of person that doesn't want anything to do with the gods - fear, respect, loathing, you name it. "Hey, I leave the Gods alone, and they leave me alone, and we're all fine with that. Don't go preaching to me, cleric boy, I don't want to hear it."
BELLOCH!!!
Ahem... sorry, dont' know what came over me.
And you're right, it woudl be difficult to play a true atheist or agnostic in D&D where the existence of the Gods is known and quite often (depending on the setting) are mucking about in the Prime. Divine interference is de riguer in the Forgotten Realms. Even Greyhawk, while the Gods had their truce where none would interfere in person on Oerth, they certainly spurred their followers on to commit good/evil to futher their own machinations.
While one could certainly play a character who totally refuses to believe regardless of what is in front of him, a a true agnostic/atheist woudl be hard because the divine in D&D is not faith based alone.
While one could certainly play a character who totally refuses to believe regardless of what is in front of him, a a true agnostic/atheist woudl be hard because the divine in D&D is not faith based alone.
I once had an atheist wizard that figured gods were nothing but complex spells that got out of hand. Every time a commoner prays, they add a little more power to maintaining the ongoing "god-spell". The gods were no more eternal than civilizations and explained why gods die or fade from existance. Without worshipers to maintain the spell, the spell slowly fades away. In other words, Lollth is not an eternal evil deity. She is a spell manifestation of all the prayers whispered in dark caves by evil drow. She has a semblance of life much like a sentient construct, but is no more immortal than the worshippers that support her. In a similar way ghosts and undead are all magical constructs powered by people's fears of things that go bump in the night. Even lichs are not the eternal souls of dead wizards (since the wizard has to die to complete the ritual) but powerful spells created by now deceased wizards. The lich may believe he is the undead incarnation of Bob the Powerful, but Bob is no more. The lich is just Bob's last, most powerful, spell.
I stole the idea from Harry Harrison's "The Hammer and the Cross", where the gods exist as a reflection of the society and both reflected and helped shape the society. In any case, my point is that you can have an atheist in D&D you just have to be a little creative in how you justify it.
Allen.
I wouldn't even call that an atheist though. The character you describe doesn't disbelieve in the Gods, he just sees tham as something else (sentient arcane forces that are godlike in power and as such can still be considered divine as opposed to true God-beings). However, the fact that he acknowledges their existence in any form means he isn't an atheist. Maybe a skeptic, but not an atheist.
I wouldn't even call that an atheist though. The character you describe doesn't disbelieve in the Gods, he just sees tham as something else (sentient arcane forces that are godlike in power and as such can still be considered divine as opposed to true God-beings). However, the fact that he acknowledges their existence in any form means he isn't an atheist. Maybe a skeptic, but not an atheist.
IMHO it's a matter of interpretation. My character believes deities only exist because people believe in them. He acknowledges that clerics have power for example - but the source is not some eternal supreme being. The source is all of the worshippers who are contributing small amounts of spell power to maintaining the deity spell.
Let's put it this way. I enjoy watching movies but I know that ZombieLand is just a story. My atheist wizard believes that deities are about as real as someone like Jesse Eisenberg ending up with Emma Stone. It's a nice story with decent special effects, but it's not real.
So clerics have power but it's all smoke-and-mirrors. Gods are not immortal, all-knowing or supreme. They're souped-up cantrips. To me that makes him an atheist that acknowledges that there is powerful magic in the world.
IMHO it's a matter of interpretation. My character believes deities only exist because people believe in them.
I'm suddenly havign flashbacks to the Hogfather... glingle glingle...
IMHO it's a matter of interpretation. My character believes deities only exist because people believe in them.
It could also be a situation akin to Arthur C. Clarke's observation of "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" -- in other words, "Any sufficiently advanced being is indistinguishable from a god." You may not know how the being does what he does, but that doesn't mean he's divine in nature.
Was Q (from Star Trek: The Next Generation) a god? Some cultures would say yes; others would say that it was simply a being who had a much greater understanding of how the universe worked and was able to manipulate matter and energy in a way that we don't yet understand.
Was Q (from Star Trek: The Next Generation) a god?
Actually he was an annoying git who really needed a phaser between the eyes.
I think that a lot more characters and certainly almost all NPCs should be polytheists. Making an offering to Tymora before gambling, Oghma before an exam, Sune before a date, and even Umberlee before a sea voyage.
Actually a pet peeve of mine is that so many LFR characters are monotheists. Just because you've chosen to worship an god whose aspect helps define your character is no reason that you'd want to see that aspect dominate all aspects of life across the Realms.
I think that a lot more characters and certainly almost all NPCs should be polytheists. Making an offering to Tymora before gambling, Oghma before an exam, Sune before a date, and even Umberlee before a sea voyage.
Conversely, a pet peeve of mine is the number of PCs that don't have patron deities. ;)
I'm fine with bribing various deities with prayers or offerings when your situation touches on their portfolio, but PCs should almost universally have a deity that they primarily worship and to whom they have loyalty. That's just one of the things that makes Faerun what it is.
Not only have the gods walked amongst the realms in very physical, tangible forms, but it is possible for the more talented characters to go visit a deity in their realm (and return). Sure there could be some doubters out there, but I would expect them to be rare.
Of course, you might have a character who recognizes the gods exist, but does not feel any allegiance to any particular god.
Keith
Because wihout a patron deity you get stuck in the wailing wall, or whatever it's called, in Kelemvor's domain because you have no deity's realm to move on to for your final reward.
I don't know if the Wall of the Faithless exists any more.
Edit: Looked up Rich Baker's response and he says (on the fait of the Faithless and the False):
Just not discussed. Many folks didn't like it the way it was, but it wasn't something we wanted to change (it features prominently in a couple of novels that are likely to be in print for some time).
My own $.02 -- With a hundred more years to get his feet under him as god of the dead, I imagine that Kelemvor might be more willing to give souls the benefit of the doubt and save the Faithless/False determination only for those who really, really deserve it.
Gomez
i could have sworn I remembered reading this... and considering that I didn't follow the FR since 2e until 4e, it had to have been recent.
Mind, that was when Kelly was wads the new kid on the block. He is settled in now, and may not give so much about what other deities say (It's not like they do such an excellent job themselves).
Plus that was before the spellplague, and the number of dead gods skyrocketed.