LFR Legal Race worships "forbidden" Goddess - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

LFR Legal Race worships "forbidden" Goddess

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
vinciente
Apr 10, 2010 2:29:01 What's with giving us a Race that worships the Raven Queen, if we are not allowed to select her as our character's Goddess?

According to the Character Builder (set to use the LFR settings), Shadar-Kai are a legal race. However, the details of the race states that their race as a whole worships the Raven Queen (Unaligned according to the CB), yet flags our character as being "house ruled" & thereby makes it an illegal (at least by my understanding) option.
For many most classes it is just a matter of semantics, but for a divine Class such as the Avenger or Cleric; this creates a conflict with the base racial concept and it's use in the LFR setting.

Is there anything in print for LFR to allow for the Race to be played as presented? Or are the characters doomed to be "outcasts" for rejecting the Goddess of their people, in order to be played in LFR?
#2
kenobi65
Apr 10, 2010 4:20:42
Well, the most important thing to bear in mind is that the Raven Queen simply does not exist in the Forgotten Realms. Shadar-kai in the Forgotten Realms have never even *heard* of the Raven Queen; she's simply unknown in that world. This is no different from a number of the other "base" deities in the core D&D books, such as Pelor or Ioun. That's why there's that "equivalency" chart in the CCG. The Raven Queen, as the goddess of death in the "base" pantheon, is best represented by Kelemvor in the Realms (though, as has been pointed out in a number of other threads, it is *not* an exact match).

I don't have my books in front of me right now (so, if I'm getting this wrong, someone please correct me), but I seem to recall that many shadar-kai in the Realms are worshippers of Shar. Of course, Shar is an evil goddess, and thus not appropriate for an LFR PC.
#3
Dragon9
Apr 11, 2010 8:34:35 Shadar-Kai began appearing a generation after Shade returned. This was linked to so much time spent in the Shadowfell. Either humans spontaneously turned into Shadar-Kai or they gave birth to them. The Netehrese also have a ritual to turn someone into a Shadar-Kai now.

Most Shadar-Kai hail from Netheril, but some have fled to be freemen and some are born outside of Netheril. Shadar-Kai worship Shar prodominately among the Netherese. Non-Netherese Shadar-Kai worship whomever they want. Those from the Shadowfell, oddly enough, tend to worship Tempus.

This is all from the FRCG pages 261-2.
#4
vinciente
Apr 12, 2010 11:58:34 Thank you for the information guys. I will have to go check to see that my CCG is current for the conversion chart. I am also going to reread the FRCG pages that you mentioned.

I am however left with another question, now that the Shadowfell has been brought into this. If a Shadar-Kai had been raised in the "Core" world & was somehow moved into/through the Shadowfeel; whouldn't why could they not still have faith in their diety? Being that I am far from being versed in much of the lore/canon; I am running on the understanding that the Shadowfell is common to &/or shared by all of the D&D Realms.
My understanding of this is based on information that had been passed on to me by another DM who at the time we were discussinf things, claimed to have "read up" on the topic & that was in fact somewhere in his research.

Regardless of which is the correct or current standing on this... can someone "poke" a member of WotC staff so that an Errata/Update (mostly for the CB) can be made that accounts for the Raven Queens absence from LFR & allow for the race to gain the same (or similar) benefits from Kelemvor as they do from the Raven Queen?
#5
bgibbons
Apr 12, 2010 12:26:37
If a Shadar-Kai had been raised in the "Core" world & was somehow moved into/through the Shadowfeel; whouldn't why could they not still have faith in their diety? Being that I am far from being versed in much of the lore/canon; I am running on the understanding that the Shadowfell is common to &/or shared by all of the D&D Realms.

It's not. Or rather, that a plane called the Shadowfell exists is true about all currently-described D&D campaign settings, but it's a different Shadowfell each time.

The Raven Queen does not exist in Faerun, nor in any plane having anything to do with Faerun. A character in LFR has no knowledge of, contact with or any relationship whatsoever with the Raven Queen.
#6
kenobi65
Apr 12, 2010 12:57:32

Regardless of which is the correct or current standing on this... can someone "poke" a member of WotC staff so that an Errata/Update (mostly for the CB) can be made that accounts for the Raven Queens absence from LFR & allow for the race to gain the same (or similar) benefits from Kelemvor as they do from the Raven Queen?

What specific benefits are you referring to? And, in what way are these not covered by the equivalency chart in the CCG?
#7
Crodocile
Apr 12, 2010 13:09:02 But Ravenloft is able to snatch characters from any setting/world. So, theoretically, a character from the standard PoL setting could be lost in Ravenloft and somehow escape into Faerun. And by this logic, a warforged character from Eberron could be snatched up by the mists of Ravenloft, then later deposited in Faerun, making a potentially legal LFR warforged character!

Of course Ravenloft usually takes evil characters, and you can't be evil in LFR.
#8
Madfox11
Apr 13, 2010 2:31:07 Ravenloft is a 2nd edition setting with some third party connections through 3rd edition. The planar cosmology in those editions is completely different from the 4E cosmology. In 4E each setting is completely seperate from the others and there is no "official" way for one character to get from one setting to the other. Ravneloft also does not exist as a seperate plane anymore. Instead, the domains of dread are seperate entities drifting through Shadowfell, and no 4E domain I have seen contains anything setting specific (most being connected to the 4E core setting). The fact is that per official information, there are no shadar-kai from other worlds in the FR who might worship the Raven Queen. If a player designs one, the player needs to answer those questions for his or her own character, keeping in mind that there is no such thing as a Raven Queen game mechanically in the FR and hence no game mechanical benefits can be gained from it beyond the equivallency rule.
#9
gomeztoo
Apr 13, 2010 3:15:01 It is not really known if there really are no connections any more between the various worlds (there used to be - see the Wizards three articles in 3nd ed Dragon), but likely if there are, they are very rare (a way to do so is for the PC to come to the world pre-Spellplague, then travel through a time portal to the current era).
Regardless, accoring to the CCG, in LFR, PCs cannot worship the Raven Queen. Even if you let your PC come from the 'Core' world, Raven Queen does not exist and you cannot, technically, worship her..
It is possible a DM may let you get away with it, of course, but you are likely to run into some scorn here and there, or DMs not allwoing it. The best suggestion is to not think up concepts that require elements not allowed. That is a limitation for character concepts, but there is nothing really forcing you to select a non-FR deity (you, a sa player, are in control so cand etermine what your character believes as long a sit siw ithing campaign parameters).
So, you can come from another world if you wish so, as long as you follow the CCG rules: select a FR home region, and if you select a deity, it has to be from FR.

Gomez
#10
eriksdb
Apr 13, 2010 10:17:17 It seems two different things are being discussed here: the 4e D&D cosmology (and its impact on characters) and mechanical choices available in LFR.

As I understand it, at the moment, you are forbidden to use non-FR deities in LFR. Period. This is because as far as LFR goes (trying to standardize a cosmology for everyone), the stuff in "core" D&D doesn't apply. If you want to use a race like the shadar-kai or the revenant (a race that is NOT standardized for a PHB), then you need to do some mental reskinning of that race to make it fit for a setting it was not designed for. There are lots of suggestions (as pointed out above) in the FRCG/PG for doing this. (Also, I want to take this opportunity to pimp out a novel in the setting, coming out in July, called Unbroken Chain, by the talented Jaleigh Johnson, which is all about shadar-kai in FR. Totally awesome.)

At home, you should feel free to have both the FR deities and the "core" deities in your game. Maybe a shadar-kai from the core Shadowfell arrives in the Realms and wonders why no one pays the Raven Queen any respect--or a shadar-kai from Ikemmu finds himself in the Astral Sea and wonders who this "Raven Queen" person is that everyone invokes as the harbinger of death, and whom people assume he (the shadar-kai) represents during his travels.

But in LFR--no, there is (currently) no Raven Queen in LFR.

Cheers

P.S. Also check out this DDI article on Ikemmu, the shadar-kai's homeland city in FR, courtesy of my good friend and colleague, Matt James: www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/d...
#11
bgibbons
Apr 13, 2010 14:50:19
As I understand it, at the moment, you are forbidden to use non-FR deities in LFR. Period.

"Forbidden" is probably too strong.

They simply don't exist in FR. You're free to claim whatever you would like as your backstory (it would be tough to stop you), but claiming a Raven Queen-related backstory is like claiming your warforged is really a lost Star Wars droid or your barbarian is from Cimmeria. It's not that the rules forbid you from claiming that, it's just that you'll get odd looks and have the potential for negative reactions from players who find your backstory jarring.
#12
eriksdb
Apr 13, 2010 15:00:45 Well I certainly hold to cool stories like a fish out of water thing ("Who is this Raven Queen you speak of?"), but I was simply addressing the LFR rules, which I believe render your character illegal for LFR play if you have a non-FR deity.

Then again, I'm hardly an expert on LFR rules--just a dabbler, really.

Cheers
#13
kenobi65
Apr 13, 2010 16:46:29
Well I certainly hold to cool stories like a fish out of water thing ("Who is this Raven Queen you speak of?"), but I was simply addressing the LFR rules, which I believe render your character illegal for LFR play if you have a non-FR deity.

Effectively, the only classes which are covered under the "Pick a deity" section of the rules are those with a Divine class, who are, indeed, limited to choosing a deity* from the Realms (see CCG 1.95, p. 7). It does not appear that this stricture extends to characters of non-Divine classes.

* - Note that the wording now specifies "one (and only one) living deity". This is due to players trying to have their PCs worship entire groups of deities, or dead deities (particularly Mystra).
#14
vinciente
Apr 19, 2010 14:00:46

What specific benefits are you referring to? And, in what way are these not covered by the equivalency chart in the CCG?

Before I get to the details of what benefits are not available; I want to break this down for people a little bit...
Shadar-Kai as outlined in this article
www.wizards.com/DnD/Downloads/372_shadar...
Are stated to: "revere the commandments of the Raven
Queen as societal traditions, and they have great
places of worship for their favored deity." (Pg3 of the Article or Pg7 of Drag372)
BTW- The CB also states that: "The Raven Queen is a fair mother, if not a loving one. When the Shadar-Kai called upon her in ancient times, she answered. She still does."
(This can be found in the racial write-up for the Shadar-Kai on the race selection page)

Following the natural societal pattern for the race would lead them naturally to have the Raven Queen as a Deity. Under this natural course of logic, the next thing to look at would be what results from such worshiping the Raven Queen that does not come from the other Gods/Goddesses.
Which brings me to the answer to your question...
The Player's Handbook feat: Raven Queen's Blessing (Pg 200 of my copy/printing) states the prerequisite "must worship the Raven Queen"
Dragon 380 Article-Channel Divinity: The Raven Queen’s Champions ( www.wizards.com/dnd/downloads/dragon/380... ) lists "Memory of Death", "Pervasive Gloom", "Shadow Legacy", and "Shadowfell Guidance" which ALL STATE the same prerequisite.
The Character Builder's Raven Queen description: Raven Queen Devotee [Heritage] again has this same requirement.

ALL of these examples would be available at first level as viable options for a Shadar-Kai worshiper of the Raven Queen. However, by not being able to follow the natural order of things; these options get stripped away from us. This is why I am asking for all of these (and those avail at the higher tiers) to be made available to Shadar-Kai who must choose a different diety such as Kelemvor in order to be legal in LFR.

My plea is simply that if the race is available then so should be the benefits that normally be available to the religious classes of that race.

#15
kenobi65
Apr 19, 2010 14:31:32
My plea is simply that if the race is available then so should be the benefits that normally be available to the religious classes of that race.

They are.

Read p. 7 of the CCG, v. 1.95. I've highlighted the relevant bits:

Select a deity for your character, if applicable. Characters that have a divine class or multiclass option must choose one (and only one) living deity for their character. See the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide (“Pantheons of the World”) or Player’s Guide (Deities of the World chapter) for a list of deities available in the Realms. If you’ve chosen a deity from the Player’s Handbook, listed below is an equivalency chart so that you can convert your character’s choice to the appropriate campaign-specific deity. You may need to alter your character’s alignment slightly to align more properly with the Realms deity. If you have a Channel Divinity feat from the Player’s Handbook, it is a valid character option for the Realms-equivalent deity. The Forgotten Realms Player’s Guide will have Channel Divinity feats for all the Realms deities listed on the chart. In addition, the Realms-equivalent deity serves as a proxy for any other rules prerequisite that specifies the Player’s Handbook deity.

In short, that last sentence shows that any rules option that refers to the Raven Queen is available to you in LFR, by substituting Kelemvor. Period.
#16
bgibbons
Apr 19, 2010 15:26:14
My plea is simply that if the race is available then so should be the benefits that normally be available to the religious classes of that race.

I'm still not getting the problem.

If you are upset that the roleplaying flavor of shadar-kai is different in the Realms than core, then that's just something you're going to have to live with. Many races have been modified to fit Faerun.

If you are upset that you don't have access to feats or paragon paths, then I'm perplexed, as your second post in this thread indicates you're aware of the existence of the equivalency chart, allowing you to use every single rules option that references the Raven Queen, simply by plugging "Kelemvor" in every time she's mentioned.

If you are upset that the Character Builder doesn't automatically translate 'Kelemvor' into 'The Raven Queen' for you, forcing you to switch back and forth to see what options are available (and having your character flagged as house-ruled), then I'd have to characterize that as one of the more trivial problems you could have, and one that should be brought up in the Character Builder technical issues forum, since no one affiliated with the campaign has even the slightest input on the CB.
#17
kenobi65
Apr 19, 2010 16:12:14
If you are upset that the roleplaying flavor of shadar-kai is different in the Realms than core, then that's just something you're going to have to live with. Many races have been modified to fit Faerun.

Indeed...it's not fundamentally different from things like FR tieflings not being able to trace their ancestry back to Bael Turath (which never existed in the Realms), FR dragonborn once being slaves in Abeir, rather than coming from the dragonborn empire of Arkhosia (which also never existed in the Realms), etc.
#18
vinciente
Apr 21, 2010 14:42:00
My plea is simply that if the race is available then so should be the benefits that normally be available to the religious classes of that race.

They are.

Read p. 7 of the CCG, v. 1.95. I've highlighted the relevant bits:

Select a deity for your character, if applicable. Characters that have a divine class or multiclass option must choose one (and only one) living deity for their character. See the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide (“Pantheons of the World”) or Player’s Guide (Deities of the World chapter) for a list of deities available in the Realms. If you’ve chosen a deity from the Player’s Handbook, listed below is an equivalency chart so that you can convert your character’s choice to the appropriate campaign-specific deity. You may need to alter your character’s alignment slightly to align more properly with the Realms deity. If you have a Channel Divinity feat from the Player’s Handbook, it is a valid character option for the Realms-equivalent deity. The Forgotten Realms Player’s Guide will have Channel Divinity feats for all the Realms deities listed on the chart. In addition, the Realms-equivalent deity serves as a proxy for any other rules prerequisite that specifies the Player’s Handbook deity.

In short, that last sentence shows that any rules option that refers to the Raven Queen is available to you in LFR, by substituting Kelemvor. Period.

This works for pen & paper which solves half of my problem... the other half is being able to access them in the CB when using the LFR campaign setting, without being flagged as "House Ruled"
#19
kenobi65
Apr 21, 2010 16:05:15

This works for pen & paper which solves half of my problem... the other half is being able to access them in the CB when using the LFR campaign setting, without being flagged as "House Ruled"

:shrug: I don't see why it really matters. The "legal for FR" settings in CB are notoriously inaccurate anyway. My advice is follow what it says in the CCG as to what is legal, and don't worry about the CB flag.
#20
Dragon9
Apr 21, 2010 17:18:43
This works for pen & paper which solves half of my problem... the other half is being able to access them in the CB when using the LFR campaign setting, without being flagged as "House Ruled"

Don't sweat it. Truth be told, we are likely to never see it supported in the CB. Besides, it's an LFR "houserule" anyway. You know it's legal, we know it's legal, the people at your table know it's legal (or if they dont' you can show them in the CCG where it says it is). So it's not an issue.
#21
vinciente
Apr 22, 2010 1:22:57 ***Grumble Grumble.... nod in acceptance of the facts***

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 vinciente Apr 10, 2010 2:29:01	What's with giving us a Race that worships the Raven Queen, if we are not allowed to select her as our character's Goddess? According to the Character Builder (set to use the LFR settings), Shadar-Kai are a legal race. However, the details of the race states that their race as a whole worships the Raven Queen (Unaligned according to the CB), yet flags our character as being "house ruled" & thereby makes it an illegal (at least by my understanding) option. For many most classes it is just a matter of semantics, but for a divine Class such as the Avenger or Cleric; this creates a conflict with the base racial concept and it's use in the LFR setting. Is there anything in print for LFR to allow for the Race to be played as presented? Or are the characters doomed to be "outcasts" for rejecting the Goddess of their people, in order to be played in LFR?
#2 kenobi65 Apr 10, 2010 4:20:42	Well, the most important thing to bear in mind is that the Raven Queen simply does not exist in the Forgotten Realms. Shadar-kai in the Forgotten Realms have never even heard of the Raven Queen; she's simply unknown in that world. This is no different from a number of the other "base" deities in the core D&D books, such as Pelor or Ioun. That's why there's that "equivalency" chart in the CCG. The Raven Queen, as the goddess of death in the "base" pantheon, is best represented by Kelemvor in the Realms (though, as has been pointed out in a number of other threads, it is not an exact match). I don't have my books in front of me right now (so, if I'm getting this wrong, someone please correct me), but I seem to recall that many shadar-kai in the Realms are worshippers of Shar. Of course, Shar is an evil goddess, and thus not appropriate for an LFR PC.
#3 Dragon9 Apr 11, 2010 8:34:35	Shadar-Kai began appearing a generation after Shade returned. This was linked to so much time spent in the Shadowfell. Either humans spontaneously turned into Shadar-Kai or they gave birth to them. The Netehrese also have a ritual to turn someone into a Shadar-Kai now. Most Shadar-Kai hail from Netheril, but some have fled to be freemen and some are born outside of Netheril. Shadar-Kai worship Shar prodominately among the Netherese. Non-Netherese Shadar-Kai worship whomever they want. Those from the Shadowfell, oddly enough, tend to worship Tempus. This is all from the FRCG pages 261-2.
#4 vinciente Apr 12, 2010 11:58:34	Thank you for the information guys. I will have to go check to see that my CCG is current for the conversion chart. I am also going to reread the FRCG pages that you mentioned. I am however left with another question, now that the Shadowfell has been brought into this. If a Shadar-Kai had been raised in the "Core" world & was somehow moved into/through the Shadowfeel; whouldn't why could they not still have faith in their diety? Being that I am far from being versed in much of the lore/canon; I am running on the understanding that the Shadowfell is common to &/or shared by all of the D&D Realms. My understanding of this is based on information that had been passed on to me by another DM who at the time we were discussinf things, claimed to have "read up" on the topic & that was in fact somewhere in his research. Regardless of which is the correct or current standing on this... can someone "poke" a member of WotC staff so that an Errata/Update (mostly for the CB) can be made that accounts for the Raven Queens absence from LFR & allow for the race to gain the same (or similar) benefits from Kelemvor as they do from the Raven Queen?
#5 bgibbons Apr 12, 2010 12:26:37	If a Shadar-Kai had been raised in the "Core" world & was somehow moved into/through the Shadowfeel; whouldn't why could they not still have faith in their diety? Being that I am far from being versed in much of the lore/canon; I am running on the understanding that the Shadowfell is common to &/or shared by all of the D&D Realms. It's not. Or rather, that a plane called the Shadowfell exists is true about all currently-described D&D campaign settings, but it's a different Shadowfell each time. The Raven Queen does not exist in Faerun, nor in any plane having anything to do with Faerun. A character in LFR has no knowledge of, contact with or any relationship whatsoever with the Raven Queen.
#6 kenobi65 Apr 12, 2010 12:57:32	Regardless of which is the correct or current standing on this... can someone "poke" a member of WotC staff so that an Errata/Update (mostly for the CB) can be made that accounts for the Raven Queens absence from LFR & allow for the race to gain the same (or similar) benefits from Kelemvor as they do from the Raven Queen? What specific benefits are you referring to? And, in what way are these not covered by the equivalency chart in the CCG?
#7 Crodocile Apr 12, 2010 13:09:02	But Ravenloft is able to snatch characters from any setting/world. So, theoretically, a character from the standard PoL setting could be lost in Ravenloft and somehow escape into Faerun. And by this logic, a warforged character from Eberron could be snatched up by the mists of Ravenloft, then later deposited in Faerun, making a potentially legal LFR warforged character! Of course Ravenloft usually takes evil characters, and you can't be evil in LFR.
#8 Madfox11 Apr 13, 2010 2:31:07	Ravenloft is a 2nd edition setting with some third party connections through 3rd edition. The planar cosmology in those editions is completely different from the 4E cosmology. In 4E each setting is completely seperate from the others and there is no "official" way for one character to get from one setting to the other. Ravneloft also does not exist as a seperate plane anymore. Instead, the domains of dread are seperate entities drifting through Shadowfell, and no 4E domain I have seen contains anything setting specific (most being connected to the 4E core setting). The fact is that per official information, there are no shadar-kai from other worlds in the FR who might worship the Raven Queen. If a player designs one, the player needs to answer those questions for his or her own character, keeping in mind that there is no such thing as a Raven Queen game mechanically in the FR and hence no game mechanical benefits can be gained from it beyond the equivallency rule.
#9 gomeztoo Apr 13, 2010 3:15:01	It is not really known if there really are no connections any more between the various worlds (there used to be - see the Wizards three articles in 3nd ed Dragon), but likely if there are, they are very rare (a way to do so is for the PC to come to the world pre-Spellplague, then travel through a time portal to the current era). Regardless, accoring to the CCG, in LFR, PCs cannot worship the Raven Queen. Even if you let your PC come from the 'Core' world, Raven Queen does not exist and you cannot, technically, worship her.. It is possible a DM may let you get away with it, of course, but you are likely to run into some scorn here and there, or DMs not allwoing it. The best suggestion is to not think up concepts that require elements not allowed. That is a limitation for character concepts, but there is nothing really forcing you to select a non-FR deity (you, a sa player, are in control so cand etermine what your character believes as long a sit siw ithing campaign parameters). So, you can come from another world if you wish so, as long as you follow the CCG rules: select a FR home region, and if you select a deity, it has to be from FR. Gomez
#10 eriksdb Apr 13, 2010 10:17:17	It seems two different things are being discussed here: the 4e D&D cosmology (and its impact on characters) and mechanical choices available in LFR. As I understand it, at the moment, you are forbidden to use non-FR deities in LFR. Period. This is because as far as LFR goes (trying to standardize a cosmology for everyone), the stuff in "core" D&D doesn't apply. If you want to use a race like the shadar-kai or the revenant (a race that is NOT standardized for a PHB), then you need to do some mental reskinning of that race to make it fit for a setting it was not designed for. There are lots of suggestions (as pointed out above) in the FRCG/PG for doing this. (Also, I want to take this opportunity to pimp out a novel in the setting, coming out in July, called Unbroken Chain, by the talented Jaleigh Johnson, which is all about shadar-kai in FR. Totally awesome.) At home, you should feel free to have both the FR deities and the "core" deities in your game. Maybe a shadar-kai from the core Shadowfell arrives in the Realms and wonders why no one pays the Raven Queen any respect--or a shadar-kai from Ikemmu finds himself in the Astral Sea and wonders who this "Raven Queen" person is that everyone invokes as the harbinger of death, and whom people assume he (the shadar-kai) represents during his travels. But in LFR--no, there is (currently) no Raven Queen in LFR. Cheers P.S. Also check out this DDI article on Ikemmu, the shadar-kai's homeland city in FR, courtesy of my good friend and colleague, Matt James: www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/d...
#11 bgibbons Apr 13, 2010 14:50:19	As I understand it, at the moment, you are forbidden to use non-FR deities in LFR. Period. "Forbidden" is probably too strong. They simply don't exist in FR. You're free to claim whatever you would like as your backstory (it would be tough to stop you), but claiming a Raven Queen-related backstory is like claiming your warforged is really a lost Star Wars droid or your barbarian is from Cimmeria. It's not that the rules forbid you from claiming that, it's just that you'll get odd looks and have the potential for negative reactions from players who find your backstory jarring.
#12 eriksdb Apr 13, 2010 15:00:45	Well I certainly hold to cool stories like a fish out of water thing ("Who is this Raven Queen you speak of?"), but I was simply addressing the LFR rules, which I believe render your character illegal for LFR play if you have a non-FR deity. Then again, I'm hardly an expert on LFR rules--just a dabbler, really. Cheers
#13 kenobi65 Apr 13, 2010 16:46:29	Well I certainly hold to cool stories like a fish out of water thing ("Who is this Raven Queen you speak of?"), but I was simply addressing the LFR rules, which I believe render your character illegal for LFR play if you have a non-FR deity. Effectively, the only classes which are covered under the "Pick a deity" section of the rules are those with a Divine class, who are, indeed, limited to choosing a deity* from the Realms (see CCG 1.95, p. 7). It does not appear that this stricture extends to characters of non-Divine classes. * - Note that the wording now specifies "one (and only one) living deity". This is due to players trying to have their PCs worship entire groups of deities, or dead deities (particularly Mystra).
#14 vinciente Apr 19, 2010 14:00:46	What specific benefits are you referring to? And, in what way are these not covered by the equivalency chart in the CCG? Before I get to the details of what benefits are not available; I want to break this down for people a little bit... Shadar-Kai as outlined in this article www.wizards.com/DnD/Downloads/372_shadar... Are stated to: "revere the commandments of the Raven Queen as societal traditions, and they have great places of worship for their favored deity." (Pg3 of the Article or Pg7 of Drag372) BTW- The CB also states that: "The Raven Queen is a fair mother, if not a loving one. When the Shadar-Kai called upon her in ancient times, she answered. She still does." (This can be found in the racial write-up for the Shadar-Kai on the race selection page) Following the natural societal pattern for the race would lead them naturally to have the Raven Queen as a Deity. Under this natural course of logic, the next thing to look at would be what results from such worshiping the Raven Queen that does not come from the other Gods/Goddesses. Which brings me to the answer to your question... The Player's Handbook feat: Raven Queen's Blessing (Pg 200 of my copy/printing) states the prerequisite "must worship the Raven Queen" Dragon 380 Article-Channel Divinity: The Raven Queen’s Champions ( www.wizards.com/dnd/downloads/dragon/380... ) lists "Memory of Death", "Pervasive Gloom", "Shadow Legacy", and "Shadowfell Guidance" which ALL STATE the same prerequisite. The Character Builder's Raven Queen description: Raven Queen Devotee [Heritage] again has this same requirement. ALL of these examples would be available at first level as viable options for a Shadar-Kai worshiper of the Raven Queen. However, by not being able to follow the natural order of things; these options get stripped away from us. This is why I am asking for all of these (and those avail at the higher tiers) to be made available to Shadar-Kai who must choose a different diety such as Kelemvor in order to be legal in LFR. My plea is simply that if the race is available then so should be the benefits that normally be available to the religious classes of that race.
#15 kenobi65 Apr 19, 2010 14:31:32	My plea is simply that if the race is available then so should be the benefits that normally be available to the religious classes of that race. They are. Read p. 7 of the CCG, v. 1.95. I've highlighted the relevant bits: Select a deity for your character, if applicable. Characters that have a divine class or multiclass option must choose one (and only one) living deity for their character. See the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide (“Pantheons of the World”) or Player’s Guide (Deities of the World chapter) for a list of deities available in the Realms. If you’ve chosen a deity from the Player’s Handbook, listed below is an equivalency chart so that you can convert your character’s choice to the appropriate campaign-specific deity. You may need to alter your character’s alignment slightly to align more properly with the Realms deity. If you have a Channel Divinity feat from the Player’s Handbook, it is a valid character option for the Realms-equivalent deity. The Forgotten Realms Player’s Guide will have Channel Divinity feats for all the Realms deities listed on the chart. In addition, the Realms-equivalent deity serves as a proxy for any other rules prerequisite that specifies the Player’s Handbook deity. In short, that last sentence shows that any rules option that refers to the Raven Queen is available to you in LFR, by substituting Kelemvor. Period.
#16 bgibbons Apr 19, 2010 15:26:14	My plea is simply that if the race is available then so should be the benefits that normally be available to the religious classes of that race. I'm still not getting the problem. If you are upset that the roleplaying flavor of shadar-kai is different in the Realms than core, then that's just something you're going to have to live with. Many races have been modified to fit Faerun. If you are upset that you don't have access to feats or paragon paths, then I'm perplexed, as your second post in this thread indicates you're aware of the existence of the equivalency chart, allowing you to use every single rules option that references the Raven Queen, simply by plugging "Kelemvor" in every time she's mentioned. If you are upset that the Character Builder doesn't automatically translate 'Kelemvor' into 'The Raven Queen' for you, forcing you to switch back and forth to see what options are available (and having your character flagged as house-ruled), then I'd have to characterize that as one of the more trivial problems you could have, and one that should be brought up in the Character Builder technical issues forum, since no one affiliated with the campaign has even the slightest input on the CB.
#17 kenobi65 Apr 19, 2010 16:12:14	If you are upset that the roleplaying flavor of shadar-kai is different in the Realms than core, then that's just something you're going to have to live with. Many races have been modified to fit Faerun. Indeed...it's not fundamentally different from things like FR tieflings not being able to trace their ancestry back to Bael Turath (which never existed in the Realms), FR dragonborn once being slaves in Abeir, rather than coming from the dragonborn empire of Arkhosia (which also never existed in the Realms), etc.
#18 vinciente Apr 21, 2010 14:42:00	My plea is simply that if the race is available then so should be the benefits that normally be available to the religious classes of that race. They are. Read p. 7 of the CCG, v. 1.95. I've highlighted the relevant bits: Select a deity for your character, if applicable. Characters that have a divine class or multiclass option must choose one (and only one) living deity for their character. See the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide (“Pantheons of the World”) or Player’s Guide (Deities of the World chapter) for a list of deities available in the Realms. If you’ve chosen a deity from the Player’s Handbook, listed below is an equivalency chart so that you can convert your character’s choice to the appropriate campaign-specific deity. You may need to alter your character’s alignment slightly to align more properly with the Realms deity. If you have a Channel Divinity feat from the Player’s Handbook, it is a valid character option for the Realms-equivalent deity. The Forgotten Realms Player’s Guide will have Channel Divinity feats for all the Realms deities listed on the chart. In addition, the Realms-equivalent deity serves as a proxy for any other rules prerequisite that specifies the Player’s Handbook deity. In short, that last sentence shows that any rules option that refers to the Raven Queen is available to you in LFR, by substituting Kelemvor. Period. This works for pen & paper which solves half of my problem... the other half is being able to access them in the CB when using the LFR campaign setting, without being flagged as "House Ruled"
#19 kenobi65 Apr 21, 2010 16:05:15	This works for pen & paper which solves half of my problem... the other half is being able to access them in the CB when using the LFR campaign setting, without being flagged as "House Ruled" :shrug: I don't see why it really matters. The "legal for FR" settings in CB are notoriously inaccurate anyway. My advice is follow what it says in the CCG as to what is legal, and don't worry about the CB flag.
#20 Dragon9 Apr 21, 2010 17:18:43	This works for pen & paper which solves half of my problem... the other half is being able to access them in the CB when using the LFR campaign setting, without being flagged as "House Ruled" Don't sweat it. Truth be told, we are likely to never see it supported in the CB. Besides, it's an LFR "houserule" anyway. You know it's legal, we know it's legal, the people at your table know it's legal (or if they dont' you can show them in the CCG where it says it is). So it's not an issue.
#21 vinciente Apr 22, 2010 1:22:57	*Grumble Grumble.... nod in acceptance of the facts*