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Must Have Cleric Power?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
kinevon
Aug 06, 2009 22:45:34 Is it just the way my mind works, or is Astral Seal really broken?

My just-turned second level Cleric retrained into it as one of his at-wills, and, in looking at the CB power card for it, it looks like it would set off the same issues, only worse, that Unicorn's Touch has had in the past.

My cleric would leave a latent healing potential behind from using this power of 9 hit pioints each time, no healing surge required. And that he is, at only second level, +10 vs Reflex with this power, and that it also reduces all the target's defenses by 2 when he hits...
#2
Bigfluffylemon
Aug 07, 2009 3:01:11 How in the world did you get +10 to hit at level 2?

I can get +9:

+5 wis
+1 level
+2 enhancement
+1 expertise

Anyhow, I don't see the power as broken. Sure you dish out healing IF someone else hits the target, which is very nice, but it doesn't do any damage.

And the 'bag of rats' rule applies - you need to have a meaningful threat to target. No infinite surge free healing, as is possible with Unicorn's Touch (and no clock).
#3
kinevon
Aug 07, 2009 3:13:04 To hit:
+2 (power)
+4 (Wisdom 18)
+1 (2nd level)
+1 (enhancement)
+1 Implement Expertise (Holy Symbol)

Maybe it was only +9. Still, against Reflex, is pretty powerful against most monsters, especially if playing low.

As to the bag of rats, it still works against a minion, since it does no damage itself. And it lowers the targets defenses by 2, which is fairly significant, since it increases your allies' chances to hit by 10% thereby.

And, again, it is an at-will, non-surge healing power.

Infinite surge-free healing, as long as there is still a living enemy. Action point, hit two enemies, and you heal two allies in the same turn.

And, at this level at least, the 9 points of healing done is a significant amount, other than for a defender.
#4
sithobi1
Aug 07, 2009 3:44:16 But you're not dealing any damage yourself, which means that you're really just prolonging the combat. It's very nice, but actually killing enemies is often nicer.
#5
Dragon9
Aug 07, 2009 6:42:45 It's definitely a nice power to have when you run out of Healing Words and otherr healing powers. Especially at low level. As Sithobi said, sometimes doing damage is better, but it certainly is a great utility At-Will to have for such situations though.
#6
Madfox11
Aug 07, 2009 8:00:05
As to the bag of rats, it still works against a minion, since it does no damage itself. And it lowers the targets defenses by 2, which is fairly significant, since it increases your allies' chances to hit by 10% thereby.

I would consider using it on a minion a waste of an action (unless you want to cure the controller), but that is just me.

As for the power itself, it does not work out of combat, which was the main complaint against unicorn's touch. Now, it sounds somewhat powerful, but at the same time, it costs the cleric a standard action which is not guaranteed to hit (and the lazer cleric's other at-wills also target Reflex), does no damage, and also require another character to hit it within a round. It is one of those powers that probably look better on paper then in practice, and I am planning to see how things go at the home campaign.
#7
arvagor
Aug 07, 2009 15:58:05
But you're not dealing any damage yourself, which means that you're really just prolonging the combat. It's very nice, but actually killing enemies is often nicer.

Yes, but leaders shouldn't be worrying about dealing damage -- they should be healing the party, giving the party saves, improving the party's attacks/defenses, and or lowering the same on their enemies. I haven't taken a look at the warlord powers in Martial Power that closely, but a lot of the new cleric powers in Divine Power are designed to change attack bonuses, defenses etc., without dealing damage -- and made me seriously consider the 'Messenger of Peace' paragon path, as well as the Pacifist Healer(?) feat ...
#8
Dragon9
Aug 07, 2009 17:01:14 Then again, if you can do all that and cause damage... all the better. Every little bit helps.
#9
arvagor
Aug 07, 2009 23:19:15 Meh... If the party strikers -- and defenders and controllers who think their strikers -- can't deal enough damage to take out the BBEG while I'm keeping their butts healed to full and off the ground, then I'm in the wrong party :P
#10
Black_Egg
Aug 08, 2009 2:35:52
Yes, but leaders shouldn't be worrying about dealing damage -- they should be healing the party, giving the party saves, improving the party's attacks/defenses, and or lowering the same on their enemies. I haven't taken a look at the warlord powers in Martial Power that closely, but a lot of the new cleric powers in Divine Power are designed to change attack bonuses, defenses etc., without dealing damage -- and made me seriously consider the 'Messenger of Peace' paragon path, as well as the Pacifist Healer(?) feat ...

While you're technically correct about what a Leader's focus should be, I find that the damage output of a Leader does matter. I don't run around sinking tons of resources into boosting the damage, but I don't ignore the damage potential either.

Astral Seal drops that damage altogether. That doesn't make it a bad power, but the cost is significant and shouldn't be brushed aside easily. Personally, I'd rather trust in Sacred Flame which can (mostly) replicate the task that Astral Seal performs in terms of granting hit points while harming the enemy at the same time.

Of course the real answer is Sacred Flame + Astral Seal for Wisdom Clerics. If I ever had to choose between the two, though, Sacred Flame would win.
#11
trollbill
Aug 09, 2009 10:00:30 So far my personal experience with this power is not demonstrating it to be over powered. The primary reason is that trying to use it to heal people that need it is slapshot at best. If everyone in the party is damaged, no problem. But if only a few are, the damage healed isn't generally worth the effort to coordinated getting the right people healed. And there is no guarantee they will hit when they do get a chance to benefit from it. It's generally better to look at it as a power that makes it easier for your allies to hit (which is great for tough Solos and soldiers) and the healing is a side benefit, rather than to look at it as a power you use to heal people.
#12
RCanine
Aug 10, 2009 22:33:49 ...plus, you'll cry when you crit with it.
#13
Dragon9
Aug 11, 2009 7:06:05
...plus, you'll cry when you crit with it.

:heehee
#14
sithobi1
Aug 12, 2009 2:38:33 ...Not if you're using a net as an implement!
#15
kinevon
Aug 14, 2009 0:03:26
...plus, you'll cry when you crit with it.

Is that any different than critting with one of the (many) Fighter powers that don't do damage, or only do damage (= Con, frequently) when you have a specific type of weapon?

Which reminds me, does a crit with one of those attacks, which normally does a set amount of damage to begin with, do any extra damage from a magical weapon?
#16
Dragon9
Aug 14, 2009 5:30:53 No. I believe it's in the FAQ, but WotC has said that if an attack does no damage, you don't roll the crit dice when you are using a magic weapon or implement. If it does no damage, it does no damage.
#17
bgibbons
Aug 14, 2009 9:37:57
Which reminds me, does a crit with one of those attacks, which normally does a set amount of damage to begin with, do any extra damage from a magical weapon?

As far as I can tell, an attack which deals damage (even a fixed amount) deals extra damage on a critical hit. It's only attacks which deal no damage that don't get the added critical hit damage.
All magic weapons and implements deal one or more extra dice of damage on a critical hit. [...] An attack that does not deal damage still does not deal damage on a critical hit.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 kinevon Aug 06, 2009 22:45:34	Is it just the way my mind works, or is Astral Seal really broken? My just-turned second level Cleric retrained into it as one of his at-wills, and, in looking at the CB power card for it, it looks like it would set off the same issues, only worse, that Unicorn's Touch has had in the past. My cleric would leave a latent healing potential behind from using this power of 9 hit pioints each time, no healing surge required. And that he is, at only second level, +10 vs Reflex with this power, and that it also reduces all the target's defenses by 2 when he hits...
#2 Bigfluffylemon Aug 07, 2009 3:01:11	How in the world did you get +10 to hit at level 2? I can get +9: +5 wis +1 level +2 enhancement +1 expertise Anyhow, I don't see the power as broken. Sure you dish out healing IF someone else hits the target, which is very nice, but it doesn't do any damage. And the 'bag of rats' rule applies - you need to have a meaningful threat to target. No infinite surge free healing, as is possible with Unicorn's Touch (and no clock).
#3 kinevon Aug 07, 2009 3:13:04	To hit: +2 (power) +4 (Wisdom 18) +1 (2nd level) +1 (enhancement) +1 Implement Expertise (Holy Symbol) Maybe it was only +9. Still, against Reflex, is pretty powerful against most monsters, especially if playing low. As to the bag of rats, it still works against a minion, since it does no damage itself. And it lowers the targets defenses by 2, which is fairly significant, since it increases your allies' chances to hit by 10% thereby. And, again, it is an at-will, non-surge healing power. Infinite surge-free healing, as long as there is still a living enemy. Action point, hit two enemies, and you heal two allies in the same turn. And, at this level at least, the 9 points of healing done is a significant amount, other than for a defender.
#4 sithobi1 Aug 07, 2009 3:44:16	But you're not dealing any damage yourself, which means that you're really just prolonging the combat. It's very nice, but actually killing enemies is often nicer.
#5 Dragon9 Aug 07, 2009 6:42:45	It's definitely a nice power to have when you run out of Healing Words and otherr healing powers. Especially at low level. As Sithobi said, sometimes doing damage is better, but it certainly is a great utility At-Will to have for such situations though.
#6 Madfox11 Aug 07, 2009 8:00:05	As to the bag of rats, it still works against a minion, since it does no damage itself. And it lowers the targets defenses by 2, which is fairly significant, since it increases your allies' chances to hit by 10% thereby. I would consider using it on a minion a waste of an action (unless you want to cure the controller), but that is just me. As for the power itself, it does not work out of combat, which was the main complaint against unicorn's touch. Now, it sounds somewhat powerful, but at the same time, it costs the cleric a standard action which is not guaranteed to hit (and the lazer cleric's other at-wills also target Reflex), does no damage, and also require another character to hit it within a round. It is one of those powers that probably look better on paper then in practice, and I am planning to see how things go at the home campaign.
#7 arvagor Aug 07, 2009 15:58:05	But you're not dealing any damage yourself, which means that you're really just prolonging the combat. It's very nice, but actually killing enemies is often nicer. Yes, but leaders shouldn't be worrying about dealing damage -- they should be healing the party, giving the party saves, improving the party's attacks/defenses, and or lowering the same on their enemies. I haven't taken a look at the warlord powers in Martial Power that closely, but a lot of the new cleric powers in Divine Power are designed to change attack bonuses, defenses etc., without dealing damage -- and made me seriously consider the 'Messenger of Peace' paragon path, as well as the Pacifist Healer(?) feat ...
#8 Dragon9 Aug 07, 2009 17:01:14	Then again, if you can do all that and cause damage... all the better. Every little bit helps.
#9 arvagor Aug 07, 2009 23:19:15	Meh... If the party strikers -- and defenders and controllers who think their strikers -- can't deal enough damage to take out the BBEG while I'm keeping their butts healed to full and off the ground, then I'm in the wrong party :P
#10 Black_Egg Aug 08, 2009 2:35:52	Yes, but leaders shouldn't be worrying about dealing damage -- they should be healing the party, giving the party saves, improving the party's attacks/defenses, and or lowering the same on their enemies. I haven't taken a look at the warlord powers in Martial Power that closely, but a lot of the new cleric powers in Divine Power are designed to change attack bonuses, defenses etc., without dealing damage -- and made me seriously consider the 'Messenger of Peace' paragon path, as well as the Pacifist Healer(?) feat ... While you're technically correct about what a Leader's focus should be, I find that the damage output of a Leader does matter. I don't run around sinking tons of resources into boosting the damage, but I don't ignore the damage potential either. Astral Seal drops that damage altogether. That doesn't make it a bad power, but the cost is significant and shouldn't be brushed aside easily. Personally, I'd rather trust in Sacred Flame which can (mostly) replicate the task that Astral Seal performs in terms of granting hit points while harming the enemy at the same time. Of course the real answer is Sacred Flame + Astral Seal for Wisdom Clerics. If I ever had to choose between the two, though, Sacred Flame would win.
#11 trollbill Aug 09, 2009 10:00:30	So far my personal experience with this power is not demonstrating it to be over powered. The primary reason is that trying to use it to heal people that need it is slapshot at best. If everyone in the party is damaged, no problem. But if only a few are, the damage healed isn't generally worth the effort to coordinated getting the right people healed. And there is no guarantee they will hit when they do get a chance to benefit from it. It's generally better to look at it as a power that makes it easier for your allies to hit (which is great for tough Solos and soldiers) and the healing is a side benefit, rather than to look at it as a power you use to heal people.
#12 RCanine Aug 10, 2009 22:33:49	...plus, you'll cry when you crit with it.
#13 Dragon9 Aug 11, 2009 7:06:05	...plus, you'll cry when you crit with it. :heehee
#14 sithobi1 Aug 12, 2009 2:38:33	...Not if you're using a net as an implement!
#15 kinevon Aug 14, 2009 0:03:26	...plus, you'll cry when you crit with it. Is that any different than critting with one of the (many) Fighter powers that don't do damage, or only do damage (= Con, frequently) when you have a specific type of weapon? Which reminds me, does a crit with one of those attacks, which normally does a set amount of damage to begin with, do any extra damage from a magical weapon?
#16 Dragon9 Aug 14, 2009 5:30:53	No. I believe it's in the FAQ, but WotC has said that if an attack does no damage, you don't roll the crit dice when you are using a magic weapon or implement. If it does no damage, it does no damage.
#17 bgibbons Aug 14, 2009 9:37:57	Which reminds me, does a crit with one of those attacks, which normally does a set amount of damage to begin with, do any extra damage from a magical weapon? As far as I can tell, an attack which deals damage (even a fixed amount) deals extra damage on a critical hit. It's only attacks which deal no damage that don't get the added critical hit damage. All magic weapons and implements deal one or more extra dice of damage on a critical hit. [...] An attack that does not deal damage still does not deal damage on a critical hit.