Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Dragon9 Jul 25, 2009 14:52:42	A new power in the latest PHB Heroes sets for rogues does 1[W] + Dex damage and if there's an ally adjacent to the target you have combat advantage against them. Don't need to flank. I can't find a good reason not to retrain into this.
#2 tancread Jul 25, 2009 17:33:40	A new power in the latest PHB Heroes sets for rogues does 1[W] + Dex damage and if there's an ally adjacent to the target you have combat advantage against them. Don't need to flank. I can't find a good reason not to retrain into this. What level power? Are you sure this is all there is to it? You can already do this each encounter with the Adaptable Flanker utility power, but only for one attack and it burns a minor. I use Adaptable Flanker, but it is far from a must have among rogues I know.
#3 chainlink Jul 25, 2009 17:33:50	Yeah, it's pretty good if you're fighting something that is hard to flank otherwise, like a really large creature in a small area, something highly mobile that doesn't give you the opportunity to surround it, or anything that likes to back into a corner. However, in four out of five situations, you should be able to flank or gain combat advantage in some other fashion, meaning it's just a basic Dex attack that has no special effect. It's definitely a good 3rd At-Will for a human, though. Edit: I just realized that I only assumed it was At-Will. As the above poster asked, what level power is this? If it's anything other than At-Will, then it's just terrible.
#4 Dragon9 Jul 26, 2009 2:13:13	Yes, At-Will, Rogue Attack 1: Clever Strike Martial, weapon Standard action Melee weapon Target: One creature Attack: Dex vs. AC Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade Special: If an ally is adjacent to the target and is able to attack it, you have combat advantage against the target for this attack. Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage. Level 21: 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage. Maybe I have just found myself in more situations where i can get to a position where I am attacking a target an ally is adjacent to but wasn't able to move into a flank with my move action.
#5 ibixat Jul 26, 2009 2:14:26	Yes, At-Will, Rogue Attack 1: Clever Strike Martial, weapon Standard action Melee weapon Target: One creature Attack: Dex vs. AC Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade Special: If an ally is adjacent to the target and is able to attack it, you have combat advantage against the target for this attack. Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage. Level 21: 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage. Maybe I have just found myself in more situations where i can get to a position where I am attacking a target an ally is adjacent to but wasn't able to move into a flank with my move action. Ok that is bizzare, why is it not in the character builder?
#6 Dragon9 Jul 26, 2009 2:33:46	Because they just recently came out. (should be in the next one I presume) Martial Heroes 3 or 4... I forget which one it came out of because I bought all the new sets today. Warlord, Ranger & Rogue got new At-Wills from the Martial sets. Swordmage and Artificer got new At-Wills from the arcane set(s) All divine classes got new At-Wills Fighter got 2 new Utilities (2 & 10), and Warlod got one (6), Wizard got one (6), Druid got one (6), Paladin got one (6), Cleric got one (16). Barbarian got two new Rages (5 & 9) Primal Minis Male Human Druid Female Human Barbarian Male Halfling Barbarian (who looks liek he has a jockstrap on his head) Arcane Minis Warforged Artificer Female Human Wizard Male Human Swordmage Divine Minis Male Human Paladin (with Bane symbol on his shield) Female Human Cleric Male Human Invoker Female Human Avenger Male Genasi Paladin (blue skin, so... air or water genasi?) Warforged Cleric Martial Minis Male Gnome Rogue Male Dragonborn Warlord Male Shifter Ranger (two-weapon... looks like hedgeclippers) Male Tiefling Fighter Female Elf Fighter Female Human Warlord All that, just to be thorough,. ;)
#7 elder_basilisk Jul 26, 2009 2:48:05	A new power in the latest PHB Heroes sets for rogues does 1[W] + Dex damage and if there's an ally adjacent to the target you have combat advantage against them. Don't need to flank. I can't find a good reason not to retrain into this. Two words. Opportunity cost. There are three standard rogue at-wills that I see frequently (and people who swear that any given combination of the three is the one and only way to play a rogue). Sly Flourish. Deft Strike. Piercing Strike. There are two others that I see from time to time and think are useful but which do not have the ubiquity of the first three: Disheartening strike. Riposte Strike. So, from the top, these can be divided into a few categories. DPR. Sly Flourish, Piercing Strike. Sly flourish is attractive because it offers artful dodgers at-will damage comparable to a brutal scoundrel on sneak attacks and because it still offers defender level damage when you can't sneak attack. Piercing Strike is attractive because it is an opportunity to kick monsters in the NADs. Weapon vs. non-AC defense is a high accuracy attack and provides options for dealing with high-AC soldiers. Ranged/Melee flexibility. Deft Strike Deft strike is attractive because it is useful to get that extra movement for a flank or a melee attack that would otherwise not be possible and because it offers a convenient way to get sneak attacks by spamming the "move behind a wall, and hide as a move action, deft strike out" ranged sneak attack. This is generally useful to range-focused rogues. It is also useful to melee rogues who either cannot obtain a flank or who are beat up and hiding in the back to conserve healing surges (which seems to happen to rogues more often than any other character--probably due to the lethal combination of low to moderate defenses, SAD that encourages 20/16/11 (con) or 20/14/11 (con) builds, high initiative, incentive to run in front of the defenders for first strike sneak attack, and incentive to move behind enemy lines for a flanking sneak attack). For people who swear that sly flourish or piercing strike are indispensable to a competent rogue, deft strike seems to be the universal second at-will choice. In the utility category, a couple other at-wills hang out which are not as popular but have their moments and their boosters. Disheartening strike is a favorite of everyone who attempts to make ruthless ruffian work, but a a lot of artful dodgers and brutal scoundrels like the control aspect. Riposte strike is pretty much brutal scoundrel only but offers a way for the rogue to deflect attacks away from himself and control the amount of aggro he draws. So, where does Clever Strike fit in? It's a cross between a DPR power and a utility power. It is melee only. It does not offer the damage (and ranged flexibility) of sly flourish and it doesn't offer the accuracy of piercing strike. What it does offer is the DPR provided by enabling sneak attack in situations that would not otherwise grant sneak attack and utility by making sneak attack require less risky positioning. But, there are still disadvantages to it. 1. If you are able to get combat advantage regularly without getting mauled, sly flourish offers higher damage on a hit and piercing strike is more likely to hit. So, in terms of peak DPR, either of those powers are superior to clever strike. Clever strike only beats them when combat advantage is otherwise unavailable or too risky. 2. As a melee only power that does not include movement, it cannot replace deft strike in any build. Therefore its niche is most likely replacing riposte strike as a power that enables you to get sneak attack more safely. Even in that situation, however, it is not clear that it is superior. It enables you to get sneak with less exposure but does not do anything to dissuade your target from attacking you like riposte strike (and disheartening strike for that matter) do. At best, it may mean that you are less exposed to your target's friends. I don't think it is an automatic pick for any rogue. It looks attractive, but becomes less attractive, the more skilled the player is at measuring risk and getting combat advantage and becomes less attractive the more capable your parties are of teamwork. The power is easier to use than the other at-wills but provides less performance if piloted well.
#8 amysrevenge Jul 26, 2009 11:40:07	becomes less attractive the more capable your parties are of teamwork. That was just my thought - if you play at conventions a lot with a wide variety of strangers, might be worth picking up just to be a bit more self-reliant. If you tend to play with the same people, and they are idiots, it still might be worth it. But if you tend to play with the same people and they are reasonably competent (ie. they go out of their way to get the Rogue flanks) then you don't need it. Good third At-Will for a human in any case, I think.
#9 kinevon Jul 26, 2009 18:51:50	That was just my thought - if you play at conventions a lot with a wide variety of strangers, might be worth picking up just to be a bit more self-reliant. If you tend to play with the same people, and they are idiots, it still might be worth it. But if you tend to play with the same people and they are reasonably competent (ie. they go out of their way to get the Rogue flanks) then you don't need it. Good third At-Will for a human in any case, I think. I would point out that it is also dependent on how tactical the DM is, too. No matter how good the team you play with is, it is hard to get flanks against an enemy that retreats into a corner.
#10 pint_glass_crusader Jul 27, 2009 3:20:51	However, Clever Strike would be very useful for a "Spiked Chain Rogue". The ability to get CA [at-will] with reach would come in very handy.
#11 elder_basilisk Jul 27, 2009 17:17:57	However, Clever Strike would be very useful for a "Spiked Chain Rogue". The ability to get CA [at-will] with reach would come in very handy. Can someone at WotC please kill the #$%^@ spiked chain. It was stupid in 3e. It was stupid in 3.5. It is still stupid in 4th edition. Please just kill the stupid monstrousity and stop printing dragon articles to make it come back. If I never ever ever see another character or monster with a spiked chain, it will be too soon.
#12 Dragon9 Jul 27, 2009 17:53:54	It's a very "fantasy" weapon by its fantastical nature. At least in 4th it isn't as broken and uber as it was in 3rd.
#13 elder_basilisk Jul 28, 2009 13:05:53	It's a very "fantasy" weapon by its fantastical nature. At least in 4th it isn't as broken and uber as it was in 3rd. And Oso the circus bear is a "fantasy" familiar by its very nature as well. That would not excuse publishing it in PHB 3 or continuing to republish it every edition after this. It would better in 4th (and more likely on its way to extinction since players don't think it's nearly so cool with its mediocre PHB stats) if it weren't for the stupid dragon article making it into a tempest-friendly double weapon with reach that can (apparently) be used to sneak attack.
#14 Dragon9 Jul 28, 2009 16:12:00	I haven't seen anythign that woudl allow it to be used in a sneak attack since it's part of the flail weapon group. Is there somethign that allows it?
#15 Stafir_Ortnev Jul 28, 2009 16:23:35	If you take the feat for it..it counts as a light blade if I remember right.
#16 Dragon9 Jul 28, 2009 19:24:36	Ok, did some digging. It's in the Shadar-Kai issue of Dungeon.
#17 kinevon Jul 28, 2009 20:00:46	Ok, did some digging. It's in the Shadar-Kai issue of Dungeon. Dragon, I think, not Dungeon.
#18 sithobi1 Jul 28, 2009 20:27:02	Yeah, dragon 372.
#19 Dragon9 Jul 28, 2009 21:17:24	/selffacepalm... yeah. Don't know what I was typing...:embarrass
#20 kinevon Jul 28, 2009 23:12:30	/selffacepalm... yeah. Don't know what I was typing...:embarrass That's what happens when you get hit in the head with a spiked chain.
#21 Jay_Ibero_911 Jul 31, 2009 20:11:37	Because they just recently came out. (should be in the next one I presume) Martial Heroes 3 or 4... I forget which one it came out of because I bought all the new sets today. Warlord, Ranger & Rogue got new At-Wills from the Martial sets. Swordmage and Artificer got new At-Wills from the arcane set(s) All divine classes got new At-Wills Fighter got 2 new Utilities (2 & 10), and Warlod got one (6), Wizard got one (6), Druid got one (6), Paladin got one (6), Cleric got one (16). Barbarian got two new Rages (5 & 9) Primal Minis Male Human Druid Female Human Barbarian Male Halfling Barbarian (who looks liek he has a jockstrap on his head) Arcane Minis Warforged Artificer Female Human Wizard Male Human Swordmage Divine Minis Male Human Paladin (with Bane symbol on his shield) Female Human Cleric Male Human Invoker Female Human Avenger Male Genasi Paladin (blue skin, so... air or water genasi?) Warforged Cleric Martial Minis Male Gnome Rogue Male Dragonborn Warlord Male Shifter Ranger (two-weapon... looks like hedgeclippers) Male Tiefling Fighter Female Elf Fighter Female Human Warlord All that, just to be thorough,. ;) Don't suppose you could list the new at-wills, or link me to someplace that has all the new power cards up...
#22 christopher_rowe Jul 31, 2009 20:30:55	Don't suppose you could list the new at-wills, or link me to someplace that has all the new power cards up... They're all in the Compendium now, I believe.
#23 Dragon9 Jul 31, 2009 22:46:26	No, only the 1st series is in. The 2nd series should be in the next update on the 4th. Here's a quick rundown of the At-Wills: Warlord: Inevitable Wave, +INT to damage for ally who charges the target. Ranger: Shield of Blades, +2 power bonus to AC on hit. Rogue: Detailed already Swordmage: Frostwind Blade, a different marked enemy takes CON cold damage Artificer: Unbalancing Force, Allies who hit the target push it 1 square Cleric: Invigorating assault, Effect: WIS temp HP to adjacent ally (STR based attack) Avenger: Focused Fury, Push adjacent enemy 2 squares if target was OoE target. Paladin: Forbidding Strike, Adjacent ally gains resist 2 all. (5 @ 11th, and 10 @ 21st) Invoker: Astral Wind, Push 1 square and CON damage if it moves closer.
#24 sdrowsfognik Aug 05, 2009 18:44:35	Can someone at WotC please kill the #$%^@ spiked chain. It was stupid in 3e. It was stupid in 3.5. It is still stupid in 4th edition. Please just kill the stupid monstrousity and stop printing dragon articles to make it come back. If I never ever ever see another character or monster with a spiked chain, it will be too soon. You're really going to complain about the spiked chain in a game where double weapons exist? I can use my imagination to picture a heroic character fighting with a spiked chain in a manner similar to how a manrikigusari or kusarigama was used, but in no stretch of the imagination can I picture a double sword ever being used effectively. Seriously ... the double sword must have been thought up by a member of some vastly different alien species with no knowledge of human anatomy or musculature who's only experience with swordfighting was the second hand account of a half-blind man who thought he might have seen a sword fight one rainy night when he had been out drinking. Oh, and you can sneak attack with them.
#25 Dragon9 Aug 05, 2009 19:04:43	There are plenty of staff techniques that could be used with a double sword. Look what Ray Park did as Darth Maul in Star Wars I. That is, for all intents and purposes, a brilliant energy double sword he's wielding.
#26 surgebuster Aug 05, 2009 19:10:19	There are plenty of staff techniques that could be used with a double sword. Look what Ray Park did as Darth Maul in Star Wars I. That is, for all intents and purposes, a brilliant energy double sword he's wielding. Except that in D&D, the blades of that double sword are big hunks of heavy metal, not shafts of light...
#27 sdrowsfognik Aug 05, 2009 19:35:04	There are plenty of staff techniques that could be used with a double sword. Look what Ray Park did as Darth Maul in Star Wars I. That is, for all intents and purposes, a brilliant energy double sword he's wielding. Well, he's not staff fighting, he's doing parts of staff katas, or whatever. How many times in all those Jedi fights does somebody have a perfect opening, but they just pause a couple of seconds to let their opponent finish spinning their glowstick around impressively. Sure you can grip a staff in the center and twirl it around a lot, and it looks awfully neat, but when you're actually attempting to hurt someone with it, you would be changing your grip frequently and using the whole length. Wielding a staff (or a double sword) by just griping it in the center like that you will never be able to use your muscles effectively, especially if you can't leverage the ends of the "staff" against your own body because they're blades (or beams of energy). Also, a staff (or a lightsaber) has a round surface and it doesn't matter what angle you hit with, a blade has only one effective angle you can hit with, the edge. Staff-fighting looks nothing like the **** Darth Maul was doing, because what he was doing (while impressive) is ineffective. A double sword is just ridiculous, it would never work.
#28 Dragon9 Aug 05, 2009 22:34:00	Except that in D&D, the blades of that double sword are big hunks of heavy metal, not shafts of light... Doesn't matter. Properly balanced, the big hunks of metal on the end won't mean a thing to it's heft. otherwise regular swords would be difficult to use also since they have "big hunks of metal on them." @sdrowsfognik (c'mon already, just make it kingofswords... it's a pain to type that out :P): I've done a lot of staff training, and there is a lot you can do from the middle.
#29 surgebuster Aug 05, 2009 23:38:28	Doesn't matter. Properly balanced, the big hunks of metal on the end won't mean a thing to it's heft. otherwise regular swords would be difficult to use also since they have "big hunks of metal on them." Sorry, I should've been clearer. I meant that Darth Maul was able to twirl that lightsaber around at incredible speeds because it only weighs as much as its handle. No matter the balance, you just can't replicate that level of finesse with a two-bladed sword, because the physics is different. Your wrist would snap trying to abruptly change the weapon's momentum etc. Oh god, I'm discussing the physics of fighting with a lightsaber vs double-bladed sword...what have I become?!?
#30 ibixat Aug 06, 2009 2:23:21	Oh god, I'm discussing the physics of fighting with a lightsaber vs double-bladed sword...what have I become?!? Either a Geek or a Fanboy, maybe both... not a bad club to be in... you know, if you are a Geek or a Fanboy =P
#31 Dragon9 Aug 06, 2009 6:09:21	Oh god, I'm discussing the physics of fighting with a lightsaber vs double-bladed sword...what have I become?!? Welcome to the internet. :D
#32 ibixat Aug 06, 2009 6:23:43	Welcome to the internet. :D Oooh ooh I've been there... I found this site on day.. and oddly enough, I can't stay away from it.. http://www.celebheights.com/ I obviously have way too much free time. *site is work safe, nothing naughty*
#33 Herrbard Aug 06, 2009 6:37:01	I obviously have way too much free time. No, you just post from work too much. :D I have too much free time.
#34 ibixat Aug 06, 2009 6:41:08	I post instead of sleep, like I should be napping right now since I need to leave the house in 3 hours or so to make the game today. On to the must have rogue powers... (So I'm even remotely on topic) Knockout. Yeah I think that's about the only one I would never consider giving up, and if you like to stab really hard, assassin's point later on