Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 mr_industrialpants Jan 02, 2009 9:51:55	Ok here's the situation. My nephew, who has very little experience playing a tabletop RPG let alone DnD, will be going with me to our areas monthly LFR GameDay tomorrow. What's the least difficult race/class for someone like him to play? A human Fighter comes to mind...however we have a lot of defenders running around. Thoughts?
#2 joshuarandall_dup Jan 02, 2009 10:01:35	Fighter requires quite a bit of thought to play well. I'd recommend something that mostly just deals damage without imposing status effects. So, perhaps a striker (ranger or rogue) who chooses non-status-effect powers. Or, a wizard who focuses on blasting things. Absolutely stay away from warlord! For race you probably want something with mostly passive effects that the player doesn't have to think about. Human is not bad, except that selecting that extra feat and at-will might take a while. Also, for feats, choose those that have passive, "always on" benefits. In other words, for example, don't choose Power Attack; choose Weapon Focus.
#3 pint_glass_crusader Jan 02, 2009 10:35:15	First, don't come at the problem from the position of what is best for the party... it would be nice to have X,Y or a Cleric, but the best way to do things is to ask him these questions... 1) Who are his favourite fantasy/sci-fi characters? 2) Which one would he most like his character to be like in the D&D game? Then craft the class around that. As was said above, take powers and feats that are straightforward and have either straight damage or uncomplex effects (pull, push, knock prone). So... for example... lets say he like Han Solo. He likes him because he has a gun and blasts stuff, he's cool and runs around a lot getting into bother... So how about we plump for a Human Rogue (Artful Dodger) who shoots a Hand Crossbow. Give him the feats Quick Draw and Defensive Mobility. Give him the At-Will Powers Deft Strike, Piercing Strike and Sly Flourish Give him the Encounter Power Impact Shot Give him the Daily Power Confounding Attack These are all pretty easy to adjudicate and he will be able to do "something" every round if he has a Hand Crossbow and Dagger in his hands. Knock up a name like Olo Shan (ohh PGC you clever dog! :D ) and Bob's your uncle... In fact that setup would probably do for a character if you are stuck. Hope that helps... PGC
#4 mwao_dup Jan 02, 2009 10:37:41	I'd easily do the following: Elf Ranger(Archery Style) Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 8 Level 1: Weapon Proficiency(Greatbow) Level 2: Sneak of Shadows(mainly for Thievery skill) This does two things really well: Provides an extremely high perception character for random LFR parties. Simple to run. Quarry and Twin-Strike. I'd actually switch 1 and 2 personally, but a lot of people don't get the why at the beginning. No Rogues. They're perhaps the most complex class in 4e.
#5 Dragon9 Jan 02, 2009 10:53:53	First off, how old is your nephew? If he's older he may be able to grasp tactics and strategy better than if he's younger. Also take into consideration any other experience he has in gaming, either RPGS or video games. If he's a Go buff, I think he'll understand strategy. ;) Secondly, as PGC said, ask him what he wants to play. Just a basic archtype. A sneaky guy who stabs people int he back, a knight in shining armor, a guy with a big freakin' sword, etc. Use that as a guide to help him pick a class. Explain the basic purpose of the various roles to him (Strikers deal damage and are mobile, defenders CC and are resilient, Leaders buff and move allies around, controllers debuff enemies and move them around). Help him pick powers and feats depending on what he wants to do or play. Secondly, play at the same table as him so you can help him. (but not play his character for him) It shoudl help him along the way to playign a character he really likes.
#6 pint_glass_crusader Jan 02, 2009 10:59:37	No Rogues. They're perhaps the most complex class in 4e. An Aerialist Rouge, Brawny Rogue or Cutthroat Rogue is definately, but a Ranged Artful Dodger is proably the least thought intensive character out there. All the powers listed above have simple mechanics: At-Will: Move a bit before or after attack; attack Reflex; do a bit more damage Encounter: 2[W] damage and small push Daily: 2[W] damage and the target attacks his mate The Ranged Rogue takes shots every round. All you need to tell the player (if they are inexperienced) is which enemy to target for sneak attack... "this ones is dazed, you'll do extra damage." That's all it takes. No need for slinking around with Stealth rolls or trying to flank... just shoot... shoot well and shoot often. However, the most important thing is to make a character the player wants... there's nothing worse than having a character made for you only to find you hate it. I've had some experience with new gamers and the thing they like best is action... rounds of making skill checks and talking in funny voices are all great once you are immersed in the game world... but until then its pretty figures and dice rolling 100%.
#7 kshaver Jan 02, 2009 11:40:21	First, don't come at the problem from the position of what is best for the party... it would be nice to have X,Y or a Cleric, but the best way to do things is to ask him these questions... 1) Who are his favourite fantasy/sci-fi characters? 2) Which one would he most like his character to be like in the D&D game? The more interesting the character is to the player, the more effort of thier own they'll put into learning the rules to play the character. In otherwords the character he wants to play will become the least complicated character for him to play, unless he is very young and even simple rules are going to be a problem.
#8 mwao_dup Jan 02, 2009 12:20:29	An Aerialist Rouge, Brawny Rogue or Cutthroat Rogue is definately, but a Ranged Artful Dodger is proably the least thought intensive character out there. The Ranged Rogue takes shots every round. All you need to tell the player (if they are inexperienced) is which enemy to target for sneak attack... I actually think the Artful Dodger Rogue is one of the hardest ones to play well. Ranged Rogues often need to make their own combat advantage and/or let the party know when they need specific help. It doesn't just happen. Rogues aren't the 3.5 Rogue, Rangers are the 3.5 Rogue. This involves stats. Rogues who can't find traps are going to surprise people. The Ranger can observe and passively help the party with his skills. The Artful Dodger Rogue has to actively help the party with his skills. The Archer Ranger is straightforward in combat if the new player gets confused. Get out of the way of the enemies, quarry your target and shoot. The Artful Dodger Rogue often needs to know when to get into a flank because sneak attack won't happen any other way.
#9 mr_industrialpants Jan 02, 2009 13:33:12	Thank you all for the quick responses. He's 14 (15 in May), plays a lot of video games, and has seen fantasy movies (like LotR). I showed him the PHB and he was instantly drawn to the Dragonborn so we created a Dragonborn Fighter (using two-handed weapons). I'll post his stats later.
#10 rexracerjr Jan 04, 2009 14:07:40	Dude, I'm 15, and I've been playing for 2 years now. He should not have too much trouble with rules. He will probobly enjoy a class like ranger. rogue, or wizard. I'd also reccomend a swordmage.
#11 kitsuneyuri Jan 04, 2009 15:32:07	I often entertain thoughts of abusing that lightning lash at will power with another swordmage and abuse the heck out of some poor goblin. The happy merry-go-round of pain. :D
#12 Bigfluffylemon Jan 05, 2009 8:19:57	How did it go? Did you go with the fighter in the end? I know I'm late, but I would have said steer clear of rogues, wizards and any kind of leader, as they require a firmer grasp of rules and tactics than the other classes (even flanking can be confusing on your first play, I recall). Fighter, warlock (star pact for the simplest pact boon and status effects) and archery ranger are probably the easiest IMO, as they just attack stuff a lot.
#13 mr_industrialpants Jan 05, 2009 16:20:16	Oh yes it went ok...kind of. He took one look at the PHB cover, pointed to the Dragonborn on the cover, and was hooked. He's playing a Dragonborn Fighter (using a two handed weapon). The first mod we played (BALD 1-1) went ok (we played up), however the second mod we played (AKAN 1-1) was a TPK as there were 4 first level characters (we would have been better with 5 people). He wasn't upset at the TPK (hey he learned what TPK means now), and had a lot of fun. I already sent him a text about the next GameDay and he said he would have to clear it with his mom, which I told him to behave so he can go. :D Here's his stats (still 1st level): (with racials) Str 18 Con 14 Dex 14 Int 8 Wis 13 Cha 12 Feats: Weapon Proficiency Fullblade I suggested he take a sword and shield instead as his AC is 17 (with Scale Mail) currently however he wants to dish out some damage. I think we may be able to change his mind at 2nd level when he can retrain and looks at the difference between an 18 AC and a 20 AC.
#14 grandpoobah Jan 05, 2009 18:18:10	I wouldn't talk him out of anything he is excited about. The big sword in two-hands sounds like the archetype of character your nephew likes. Instead, I would stress to him the difference between a Striker and a Defender, and that it sounds like he's wanting to play a Striker more than a Defender. That's not a problem, he just needs to play the Dragonborn/Fullblade/Fighter more like a Striker - try not to "draw aggro" so much. Honestly, if you have the barbarian playtest, it might be fun to get him to play that instead (they do a disgusting amount of damage), he may enjoy all the charging around the battlefield powers. Then again, it does require some tactical ability, as barbarians can have a short life-span. I would recommend Toughness at 2nd level (for more HP). The fullblade is still fun, and it might not be a bad idea to bump his CON to 15 for Plate male proficiency later (bump CON at level 4 or level 8).
#15 joshuarandall_dup Jan 06, 2009 10:24:00	The first mod we played (BALD 1-1) went ok (we played up) How did you handle the... SPOILER SPACE FOR PEOPLE WHO MOUSEOVER DUM DEE DUM THAT SHOULD DO IT Show otyughs and carrion crawler? The otyughs' defenses are quite high, especially with their stench aura going. How was the 1st level PC even able to hit them?!
#16 SYB Jan 06, 2009 11:02:11	Oh yes it went ok...kind of. I suggested he take a sword and shield instead as his AC is 17 (with Scale Mail) currently however he wants to dish out some damage. I think we may be able to change his mind at 2nd level when he can retrain and looks at the difference between an 18 AC and a 20 AC. He can retrain. But, he cannot retrain his fighter class feature. Right now, he gets a +1 bonus to attack rolls with two-handed weapons. That is a class feature, he can never retrain that away. So, even if he retrains to Bastard Sword Proficiency and uses a shield, he will still have a bonus to attack rolls for two-handed weapons, not one-handed weapons. He has made his choice, it is really best for him to stick with it. -SYB
#17 mr_industrialpants Jan 06, 2009 14:57:31	How did you handle the... SPOILER SPACE FOR PEOPLE WHO MOUSEOVER DUM DEE DUM THAT SHOULD DO IT Show otyughs and carrion crawler? The otyughs' defenses are quite high, especially with their stench aura going. How was the 1st level PC even able to hit them?!
#18 matt12 Jan 06, 2009 16:20:10	With his DEX sitting at a 14. I'd suggest just staying with a Fullblade. Then picking up all the Sword type feats later on in the game with all those goodies. I really like the HBO feat. At second level I'd suggest picking up the Enlarged Dragon Breath attack. It's great for minon clearing and marking a whole bunch of people. Just be prepared to be pounded on during the next turn.
#19 joshuarandall_dup Jan 06, 2009 21:10:01	Yeah, Heavy Blade Opportunity (HBO) is so good you almost have to take it if you can.
#20 Herrbard Jan 06, 2009 21:57:47	We had a table of 7 people. LOL! (Waiting to see how long it takes . . . )
#21 SYB Jan 06, 2009 22:12:00	(Waiting to see how long it takes . . . ) *shrug* It happens. I ran a game of MoH once where 7 people showed up. I explained to them that I could only seat 6. Every person at the table agreed to play the adventure with 7 (so the extra guy could have fun) and only the first six people got credit for the adventure. I made minor modifications to the difficulty to account for the 7th person. Assuming the DM did the same thing and the players all agreed to it, it sounds reasonable to me. -SYB
#22 Solodan Jan 07, 2009 14:23:38	Glad he had fun. I'd have pointed him toward a Barbarian or Ranged Ranger - they are the easiest classes to start as they have one choice to make - "Who do I bash today?" with pretty much any answer to that question being a correct answer for the party. Seems like he wants to play a barbarian anyway judgeing on his preference for 2-handers.
#23 mr_industrialpants Jan 07, 2009 14:40:27	I've not played the Barbarian, and am more familiar with the Fighter. I also don't have the Barbarian printed (but it is on my hard drive). I also wanted to guide him to a class where the rules were less complicated.
#24 Dragon9 Jan 07, 2009 21:45:12	Oh... the rules for barbarians are very uncomplicated. Who's close to me? Smashsmashsmash. Down? Hey, he's not too far away. Chargesmashsmashsmash.
#25 pint_glass_crusader Jan 08, 2009 2:59:29	I still vote for the Ranged Rogue [Artful Dodger]... The tactics are simple and the powers are straight-forward. Tactics: DM: Start of the round... who's got he highest initiative? Rogue: I got about a billion, so I go first... move to get a clear shot at the guy in robes at the back and put a crossbow bolt in him... add sneak attack damage... Fighter: My attack just dazed this dude over here... Rogue: Shoot the dazed guy and add sneak attack damage... or Wizard: My spell just slowed these guys... Rogue: Shoot the slowed guy and add sneak attack damage... etc... etc... You can't get much easier than that... ;)
#26 mwao_dup Jan 08, 2009 7:20:11	I still vote for the Ranged Rogue [Artful Dodger]... The tactics are simple and the powers are straight-forward. Wizard: My spell just slowed these guys... Rogue: Shoot the slowed guy and add sneak attack damage... This is precisely why a starting player should not play a Rogue... Slow doesn't grant combat advantage, so you don't get sneak attack damage.
#27 pint_glass_crusader Jan 08, 2009 7:46:14	This is precisely why a starting player should not play a Rogue... Slow doesn't grant combat advantage, so you don't get sneak attack damage. Then simply insert blinded, prone, immobilised or simply "grants combat advantage" instead.... it is an illustrative statement... I have used a simple Ranged Rogue build for loads of starting players and every one of them has grasped the concept easily... the "shoot the bad guy who's in distress" idea is pretty easy for even the slowest of new players and even better now that there is no penalties for shooting into melee (other than cover from other enemies). As I have stated befroe, the way to make a build "easy to play" is to choose powers that have easy rules. Straight damage and pull/push/shift are the easiest to understand for new players. So classes like Wizards and Warlocks are probably something to steer clear of initially. Also melee classes that have poor defences aren't the way to go. New players want action and the best way to do that is to have a heavy melee tank or a ranged attacker. A Ranged Rogue or Ranger and Tank AC Fighters are the easiest to understand as they allow you to pick simple powers. These may not be the best powers, but that isn't the point... build for simplicity and new players can explore the rest on their own...
#28 Istaran Jan 15, 2009 9:36:41	Then simply insert blinded, prone, immobilised or simply "grants combat advantage" instead.... it is an illustrative statement... Prone provides CA for melee only and immobilized does not grant CA at all. At low levels I haven't seen PCs providing CA except for flank on any kind of regular basis. Ranged rogues need to master stealth rules to a degree most DMs I know haven't, and/or have support from a party that has chosen their powers to assist a ranged rogue. While my own seldom used rogue occasionally benefits from being able to hit at a range, I don't recall him ever getting CA at range except by winning initiative. As an alternative you can build powers into your own rogue to set up your own combat advantage, but I would hardly call that the model of simplicity. Ranged ranger is IMO a much simpler class for a beginner. Fighter is somewhat more complicated, but I think he'll be fine.
#29 mwao_dup Jan 15, 2009 9:50:25	Then simply insert blinded, prone, immobilised or simply "grants combat advantage" instead.... it is an illustrative statement... And it is illustrating(again) why ranged rogues are not a good choice for a beginner. If it is so easy, you should be getting it right. And you're not. Immobilized does not provide combat advantage period and neither does being prone against ranged attacks. You've presumably seen a Rogue doing sneak attack damage this way or you wouldn't be offering them up as an examples without reading the rules.