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New Retraining Rules and Magic Items

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Black_Egg
Feb 19, 2010 11:14:28 With the release of Martial Power 2, I was going over some of my characters and looking at different options I could take, with a footnote about the LFR retraining rules in the back of my head since there's a lot to absorb in Martial Power 2.

While it could apply to a lot of characters, some of the options I was considering were relatively unviable even with the new retraining rules unless you can retrain your magic items as well. For instance, my Ranger that uses +2 drakescale armor and a pair of +2 longswords can't reasonably be expected to change to an archery build that can't afford the Constitution for scale armor and doesn't have an interest in having two longswords either (but does need a good bow or something similar).

I referenced the 1.95 CCG for guidance, and it says that you can retrain all "character-based" options other than race and class. Whether magic items are included in the "character-based" terminology is beyond me.

If I had to guess, I would say that magic items cannot be retrained. As weak evidence, I would point to the changes that were made to magic item "compensation" rules in the event of a rules change that were published at the same time. It is a lot of text to muddle through if your character could just retrain all of their magic items anyway.

My internal counter-argument goes that not allowing magic item retrains significantly impairs the seeming intent of the new retraining rules. Some character builds (mostly martial) simply can't operate at all without specific kinds of equipment, and ability score changes in some cases mandate armor changes for all classes. It is definitely true that I could replace my character's equipment over time if I decided to change them to an archer Ranger, but that realistically would take several levels of regearing to accomplish...which again seems to run counter to the intent of the retraining rules.

I don't particularly care which way this question goes. I enjoy my Ranger still and wouldn't particularly mind if they don't end up using an extensive melee-to-range rebuild. Being uncertain about the impact of the new retraining rules as they apply to magic items makes it hard to review my potential options, though.

Do we know for sure what "character-based rules options" means? Does it include magic items (found and purchased)?
#2
kenobi65
Feb 19, 2010 11:17:14 I don't know for certain, but I think your initial assessment is right: you can retrain choices that are integral to your character itself (ability scores, feats, powers, etc.). Magic items are external to your character, and obtained through a very different process (as treasure or purchased, rather than gained via leveling). Thus, I'd have a very hard time believing that magic items are "character-based".
#3
nightwalker450
Feb 19, 2010 11:19:50
If the enchantments are valid on different armor/weapons... You'd probably be within reason to change it.

So change your +2 Drakescale into +2 Hide (I can't remember masterwork specifically), and +2 longsword into a +2 longbow. I'd think that be reasonable, as the retraining makes the items no longer work for your character (similar to avengers loosing leather armor, and moving the enchantments to cloth), you'd need to change your equipment to the within reason...

I don't know how much this would be supported, but I think this is pretty reasonable.
#4
Black_Egg
Feb 19, 2010 11:27:40

If the enchantments are valid on different armor/weapons... You'd probably be within reason to change it.

So change your +2 Drakescale into +2 Hide (I can't remember masterwork specifically), and +2 longsword into a +2 longbow. I'd think that be reasonable, as the retraining makes the items no longer work for your character (similar to avengers loosing leather armor, and moving the enchantments to cloth), you'd need to change your equipment to the within reason...

I don't know how much this would be supported, but I think this is pretty reasonable.

The armor is Veteran's, and the weapons are generic magic items, so that much at least works. If it turns out that I could change my items, (and I actually do decide to change builds) the armor goes to hide and one of the longswords probably becomes a greatbow. I could still get use out of the other longsword, so that likely stays.

That's only if I can actually do it, however. Minor changes like the ones above seem reasonable, but I'd still rather stay within the rules.
#5
bgibbons
Feb 19, 2010 11:36:50 You cannot retrain magic items.

If a rules change makes the items no longer work for your character, the CCG has an exception for how you deal with that. If you choose to retrain to make items no longer work for your character, that's your choice and you live with that.

Transfer Enchantment costs 30 gp to have an NPC in any major city move the enchantment to an item that works better for the PC, assuming it's a valid enchantment for the new item. If the old item's enchantment doesn't work on any item usable by your new build, well, that's just a price you pay; if you don't like that price, don't rebuild your character.
#6
Greyson
Feb 19, 2010 14:29:35
You cannot retrain magic items. If a rules change makes the items no longer work for your character, the CCG has an exception for how you deal with that. If you choose to retrain to make items no longer work for your character, that's your choice and you live with that.

Gibbons is right. I'm not sure where the notion comes from that suggests a player may "retrain" a character's magic items. Page two of the CCG does read all character-based rules options except for race and class. It does not read equipment or magic items. Page ten of the CCG provides wholly different provisions for found and purchased magic items. Page ten also discusses character rules options in relationship to magic items.

I think it seems pretty clear that charcter-based options means powers, feats, skills, class feature, paragon paths and other non-equipment character elements.
#7
Black_Egg
Feb 19, 2010 15:31:10 And I don't actually disagree. My concern is that "character-based" is completely undefined by the game system and is open to interpretation. I would think that "character-based" does not include magic items as I said in my original post, but that doesn't mean that I am right.

The Transfer Enchantment ritual is something I'd forgotten about, and would go a long way toward helping ease any equipment-based retraining concerns. It covers the "reasonable" measure of shifting equipment types around within legal enchantment parameters (moving Veteran from scale to hide, as I mentioned above) within a reasonable cost and within the structure of known game mechanics. It's a nice solution.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Black_Egg Feb 19, 2010 11:14:28	With the release of Martial Power 2, I was going over some of my characters and looking at different options I could take, with a footnote about the LFR retraining rules in the back of my head since there's a lot to absorb in Martial Power 2. While it could apply to a lot of characters, some of the options I was considering were relatively unviable even with the new retraining rules unless you can retrain your magic items as well. For instance, my Ranger that uses +2 drakescale armor and a pair of +2 longswords can't reasonably be expected to change to an archery build that can't afford the Constitution for scale armor and doesn't have an interest in having two longswords either (but does need a good bow or something similar). I referenced the 1.95 CCG for guidance, and it says that you can retrain all "character-based" options other than race and class. Whether magic items are included in the "character-based" terminology is beyond me. If I had to guess, I would say that magic items cannot be retrained. As weak evidence, I would point to the changes that were made to magic item "compensation" rules in the event of a rules change that were published at the same time. It is a lot of text to muddle through if your character could just retrain all of their magic items anyway. My internal counter-argument goes that not allowing magic item retrains significantly impairs the seeming intent of the new retraining rules. Some character builds (mostly martial) simply can't operate at all without specific kinds of equipment, and ability score changes in some cases mandate armor changes for all classes. It is definitely true that I could replace my character's equipment over time if I decided to change them to an archer Ranger, but that realistically would take several levels of regearing to accomplish...which again seems to run counter to the intent of the retraining rules. I don't particularly care which way this question goes. I enjoy my Ranger still and wouldn't particularly mind if they don't end up using an extensive melee-to-range rebuild. Being uncertain about the impact of the new retraining rules as they apply to magic items makes it hard to review my potential options, though. Do we know for sure what "character-based rules options" means? Does it include magic items (found and purchased)?
#2 kenobi65 Feb 19, 2010 11:17:14	I don't know for certain, but I think your initial assessment is right: you can retrain choices that are integral to your character itself (ability scores, feats, powers, etc.). Magic items are external to your character, and obtained through a very different process (as treasure or purchased, rather than gained via leveling). Thus, I'd have a very hard time believing that magic items are "character-based".
#3 nightwalker450 Feb 19, 2010 11:19:50	If the enchantments are valid on different armor/weapons... You'd probably be within reason to change it. So change your +2 Drakescale into +2 Hide (I can't remember masterwork specifically), and +2 longsword into a +2 longbow. I'd think that be reasonable, as the retraining makes the items no longer work for your character (similar to avengers loosing leather armor, and moving the enchantments to cloth), you'd need to change your equipment to the within reason... I don't know how much this would be supported, but I think this is pretty reasonable.
#4 Black_Egg Feb 19, 2010 11:27:40	If the enchantments are valid on different armor/weapons... You'd probably be within reason to change it. So change your +2 Drakescale into +2 Hide (I can't remember masterwork specifically), and +2 longsword into a +2 longbow. I'd think that be reasonable, as the retraining makes the items no longer work for your character (similar to avengers loosing leather armor, and moving the enchantments to cloth), you'd need to change your equipment to the within reason... I don't know how much this would be supported, but I think this is pretty reasonable. The armor is Veteran's, and the weapons are generic magic items, so that much at least works. If it turns out that I could change my items, (and I actually do decide to change builds) the armor goes to hide and one of the longswords probably becomes a greatbow. I could still get use out of the other longsword, so that likely stays. That's only if I can actually do it, however. Minor changes like the ones above seem reasonable, but I'd still rather stay within the rules.
#5 bgibbons Feb 19, 2010 11:36:50	You cannot retrain magic items. If a rules change makes the items no longer work for your character, the CCG has an exception for how you deal with that. If you choose to retrain to make items no longer work for your character, that's your choice and you live with that. Transfer Enchantment costs 30 gp to have an NPC in any major city move the enchantment to an item that works better for the PC, assuming it's a valid enchantment for the new item. If the old item's enchantment doesn't work on any item usable by your new build, well, that's just a price you pay; if you don't like that price, don't rebuild your character.
#6 Greyson Feb 19, 2010 14:29:35	You cannot retrain magic items. If a rules change makes the items no longer work for your character, the CCG has an exception for how you deal with that. If you choose to retrain to make items no longer work for your character, that's your choice and you live with that. Gibbons is right. I'm not sure where the notion comes from that suggests a player may "retrain" a character's magic items. Page two of the CCG does read all character-based rules options except for race and class. It does not read equipment or magic items. Page ten of the CCG provides wholly different provisions for found and purchased magic items. Page ten also discusses character rules options in relationship to magic items. I think it seems pretty clear that charcter-based options means powers, feats, skills, class feature, paragon paths and other non-equipment character elements.
#7 Black_Egg Feb 19, 2010 15:31:10	And I don't actually disagree. My concern is that "character-based" is completely undefined by the game system and is open to interpretation. I would think that "character-based" does not include magic items as I said in my original post, but that doesn't mean that I am right. The Transfer Enchantment ritual is something I'd forgotten about, and would go a long way toward helping ease any equipment-based retraining concerns. It covers the "reasonable" measure of shifting equipment types around within legal enchantment parameters (moving Veteran from scale to hide, as I mentioned above) within a reasonable cost and within the structure of known game mechanics. It's a nice solution.