Not allowing a non-banned player at a table? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Not allowing a non-banned player at a table?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
gadren
Mar 07, 2009 14:02:40 I know this could be a touchy subject, so try to stay calm when discussing this:
What is the RPGA's policy on allowing or not allowing people to your table at an RPGA event?
Obviously, people who have been banned will be turned away, but what if a person has technically done nothing wrong as far as RPGA rules go, but there are other concerns?
For instance, perhaps the player has unbearably bad hygiene, has been making another player(s) at the table feel very uncomfortable (by hitting on one of them, always making off-color jokes, etc.), has earned a reputation for derailing adventures (perhaps on purpose), or possesses some other quality that would not really be the RPGA's concern, but would be good reason for nobody to want to play with this "problem" player?

In other words, if an RPGA player shows up at a table, does a GM have to let him/her play?
#2
smerwin29
Mar 07, 2009 14:26:01 The RPGA is currently rewriting the guidelines that dictate RPGA play. However, under the current RPGA guidelines (or any law in the world), I know of nothing that forces a venue or an individual to allow a seat to a player who the venue or the individual does not want to play.

I suppose an individual denied a seat could complain to the RPGA that they are being denied a seat, and the RPGA could ask the venue what the circumstances are. But other than that, I don't know if the RPGA is going to get involved with these disputes.
#3
pedr
Mar 07, 2009 16:08:58 Also note that many of the behaviours you describe (particularly making other players uncomfortable and deliberately disrupting play) look as if they would be infringements of the prohibition on unsporting behaviour. The RPGA General Rules and Penalty Guidelines explain how to deal with this. Sanctions more serious than a 'caution' (i.e. 'you're not behaving in a very sporting manner because of x, y, and z. Please stop behaving in that way') need to be reported to the RPGA who can - at least in theory - take further action.

I'm somewhat cautious of the RPGA Senior GM banning people from taking part in a public RPGA event apart from the RPGA rules - but what the controller of the venue does is a different matter. In a 'Home', i.e. non-public RPGA event, as I read the rules you can invite whomever you want.
#4
bgibbons
Mar 07, 2009 20:27:48
What is the RPGA's policy on allowing or not allowing people to your table at an RPGA event?

There's no RPGA policy because this isn't an RPGA issue.

When deciding who can and cannot play at an event, you're not making the decision as an RPGA DM, but rather as a store employee, convention staff or a gameday organizer. Wearing any of those hats, you can make whatever rules you'd like for your event; the RPGA doesn't appear to have any interest in getting involved at that level.

-- Brian Gibbons.
#5
Keith53
Mar 08, 2009 7:49:11 The authority ultimately lies with the person is responsible for the space. The Senior GM can certainly ask a player to leave based upon their poor conduct, etc.

The deciding test should be would you be willing to report to RPGA, or see on the front page of the local newspaper, the incident and explanation.

Gamer asked to leave because of body odor, curses frequently, hits on female gamers, etc. Understandable to most folks.

Gamer asked to leave because of skin color, ethnic background, handicapped, etc. -- well, you should know there is a problem with this.

Keith
#6
rexracerjr
Mar 08, 2009 8:20:00
by hitting on one of them

I only said 37 Staff/length jokes to her about my wizard. And that mountain dew spill was unintentional. She shouldn't have worn white anyway.

Oh, who am I kidding. She is Hawt!
#7
gadren
Mar 08, 2009 16:32:45
I only said 37 Staff/length jokes to her about my wizard. And that mountain dew spill was unintentional. She shouldn't have worn white anyway.

Oh, who am I kidding. She is Hawt!

Heh. Insert Rod of Wonder joke.

Anyways, it's good to know that if I'm GMing at an event, I have the option to turn problem players away.
#8
Jay_Ibero_911
Mar 08, 2009 17:54:15 Hmm...I have no idea when it changed, but I know there used to be a rule saying that if there was an opening at the table, that no player could be turned away if they had a legal character. As to the player in question in this topic, it sounds like they were certainly repeatedly disruptive, in which case they could be ejected from the event. And as other's have mentioned, beyond RPGA rules, whoever is the owner/in charge of the location can ask the person in question to leave. There's also the possible legal consequences, because the player he's been hitting on could very well claim sexual harassment. All in all, it sounds like at the very least, this player is simply not compatible with the rest of the group.
#9
gadren
Mar 08, 2009 20:38:53
Hmm...I have no idea when it changed, but I know there used to be a rule saying that if there was an opening at the table, that no player could be turned away if they had a legal character. As to the player in question in this topic, it sounds like they were certainly repeatedly disruptive, in which case they could be ejected from the event. And as other's have mentioned, beyond RPGA rules, whoever is the owner/in charge of the location can ask the person in question to leave. There's also the possible legal consequences, because the player he's been hitting on could very well claim sexual harassment. All in all, it sounds like at the very least, this player is simply not compatible with the rest of the group.

"This player" was purely hypothetical. I was just thinking of problems I've had with people who've responded to ads and come to my home games before. I always meet players for my home games outside of my home beforehand (because... it's my home), and there have actually been two cases where I didn't let a person join because they REEKED. (Though I just told them I felt they wouldn't be a very good fit. How do you tell someone they smell like manure wrapped in garbage?). I stopped inviting another player who wanted to bang every NPC and was rather... explicit about it. I was just curious how these kinds of situations might go in the RPGA.
#10
pedr
Mar 09, 2009 2:14:49 I don't think even the broadest interpretation of the 'rights' the RPGA rules give to players would give the RPGA any interest in regulating who you do or do not invite to your home. Home events are not public, they are not listed on the RPGA events calendar, and who plays is up to the organiser.

I imagine the issues with public events are hold-overs from the tournament/large-convention focus of the early RPGA - and reasoning by analogy from DCI rules, though I don't know how they deal with similar problems.
#11
JohnLynch
Mar 09, 2009 2:21:28
Hmm...I have no idea when it changed, but I know there used to be a rule saying that if there was an opening at the table, that no player could be turned away if they had a legal character.

That rule might have been referring to saying "sure Bob! You can play" and then discovering they're playing a drow and turning around to say "Oh wait, you can't play that character. I don't like drow so I don't let them at my table."

Or it could be an LG rule or it could be you dreamt the rule up :P

Personally though, as a GM I would never say "You can't play character X because I don't like them" and as a player if I saw a GM do that to another player, I would quite willingly leave the table myself.
#12
WolfStar76
Mar 09, 2009 11:03:52
Hmm...I have no idea when it changed, but I know there used to be a rule saying that if there was an opening at the table, that no player could be turned away if they had a legal character.

If they show up to a table with a legal character - yes, you can interpret it as such.

The catch is that the venue (game store, convention, etc) can deny access to a player - keeping them away from the table in the first place.

The Senior GM of an event has some discretion as well in organizing events, and determining how one qualifies for a table/who gets seated.
#13
gc1ceo
Mar 09, 2009 13:26:43 Yea I doubt the RPGA would get involved, personally I'd be weary of any organization that forced me to seat players unless they gave me some kind of prior approval to not seat them. That being said, generally a store or event has some kind of code of conduct that probably can govern that sort of thing.

But being somebody who has a couple of problem players who could potentially show up I can definitely understand the concern, and actual the hypothetical situation you made up is the exact attributes to a guy that nobody will seat in my group except in our larp where he generally keeps to himself (although the bad hygiene bit is only occasional...).

If bad puns got you kicked out of a group I'd be in no games, although I try and behave more when I'm at an event that isn't local or a store.
#14
gc1ceo
Mar 09, 2009 13:28:18
That rule might have been referring to saying "sure Bob! You can play" and then discovering they're playing a drow and turning around to say "Oh wait, you can't play that character. I don't like drow so I don't let them at my table."

Or it could be an LG rule or it could be you dreamt the rule up :P

Personally though, as a GM I would never say "You can't play character X because I don't like them" and as a player if I saw a GM do that to another player, I would quite willingly leave the table myself.

Frankly it does sound like the rule is meant for, especially at a bigger event where each LFR GM should be following the same basic rule set and one can't suddenly decide they won't allow Drow characters.
#15
bgibbons
Mar 09, 2009 13:51:37
If they show up to a table with a legal character - yes, you can interpret it as such.

Not even then. A particular event might have that rule, but that's a different matter.

As far as the RPGA is concerned, a GM is never forced to run any particular table. If the GM wants to walk away from the table when he sees who sits down or what they're playing, he's free to do so. Now, the event organizer might have a problem with that, but that's a separate issue.

To reiterate:
- If you are the event organizer, it is within the scope of your powers to decide who can and cannot play an adventure. (You may have to justify your decision to others, but it's unlikely that the RPGA will be one of those who cares.)
- If you are a GM at an event, you are free to decide that you don't want a particular player at your table, and won't judge if he's seated at your table. How to deal with that (and any repercussions to your actions) is up to the event organizer.

That said, none of this will really matter the overwhelmingly majority of the time, due to the level of conflict-averseness in most gaming circles.

-- Brian Gibbons.
#16
Dragon9
Mar 10, 2009 21:51:13
Hmm...I have no idea when it changed, but I know there used to be a rule saying that if there was an opening at the table, that no player could be turned away if they had a legal character.

I think that used to be a Living Arcanis rule. Or maybe you were thinking of Origins/Gencon rules where a real ticket holder couldn't be turned away in favor of a generic?
#17
dbeman
Mar 13, 2009 9:48:15 There are RPGA rules, there are venue/convention rules, there are local/state/federal laws, and there is common sense. All of which can have some bearing on whether or not a player may have a seat at your gaming table.

For example, if you were playing an adventure at a bar or a pub, you likely wouldn't seat a 12 year old player regardless of table space or the legality of his or her character.

If you're playing at a store and a potential player is banned from the premises by management you're not entitled to give them a seat. The same would apply if a player was ejected from a convention hall.

Worst case scenario is that the person in question will file a complaint with the RPGA, and I'd imagine that as long as you can provide a valid reason as to why that person wasn't allowed to play you should be covered.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 gadren Mar 07, 2009 14:02:40	I know this could be a touchy subject, so try to stay calm when discussing this: What is the RPGA's policy on allowing or not allowing people to your table at an RPGA event? Obviously, people who have been banned will be turned away, but what if a person has technically done nothing wrong as far as RPGA rules go, but there are other concerns? For instance, perhaps the player has unbearably bad hygiene, has been making another player(s) at the table feel very uncomfortable (by hitting on one of them, always making off-color jokes, etc.), has earned a reputation for derailing adventures (perhaps on purpose), or possesses some other quality that would not really be the RPGA's concern, but would be good reason for nobody to want to play with this "problem" player? In other words, if an RPGA player shows up at a table, does a GM have to let him/her play?
#2 smerwin29 Mar 07, 2009 14:26:01	The RPGA is currently rewriting the guidelines that dictate RPGA play. However, under the current RPGA guidelines (or any law in the world), I know of nothing that forces a venue or an individual to allow a seat to a player who the venue or the individual does not want to play. I suppose an individual denied a seat could complain to the RPGA that they are being denied a seat, and the RPGA could ask the venue what the circumstances are. But other than that, I don't know if the RPGA is going to get involved with these disputes.
#3 pedr Mar 07, 2009 16:08:58	Also note that many of the behaviours you describe (particularly making other players uncomfortable and deliberately disrupting play) look as if they would be infringements of the prohibition on unsporting behaviour. The RPGA General Rules and Penalty Guidelines explain how to deal with this. Sanctions more serious than a 'caution' (i.e. 'you're not behaving in a very sporting manner because of x, y, and z. Please stop behaving in that way') need to be reported to the RPGA who can - at least in theory - take further action. I'm somewhat cautious of the RPGA Senior GM banning people from taking part in a public RPGA event apart from the RPGA rules - but what the controller of the venue does is a different matter. In a 'Home', i.e. non-public RPGA event, as I read the rules you can invite whomever you want.
#4 bgibbons Mar 07, 2009 20:27:48	What is the RPGA's policy on allowing or not allowing people to your table at an RPGA event? There's no RPGA policy because this isn't an RPGA issue. When deciding who can and cannot play at an event, you're not making the decision as an RPGA DM, but rather as a store employee, convention staff or a gameday organizer. Wearing any of those hats, you can make whatever rules you'd like for your event; the RPGA doesn't appear to have any interest in getting involved at that level. -- Brian Gibbons.
#5 Keith53 Mar 08, 2009 7:49:11	The authority ultimately lies with the person is responsible for the space. The Senior GM can certainly ask a player to leave based upon their poor conduct, etc. The deciding test should be would you be willing to report to RPGA, or see on the front page of the local newspaper, the incident and explanation. Gamer asked to leave because of body odor, curses frequently, hits on female gamers, etc. Understandable to most folks. Gamer asked to leave because of skin color, ethnic background, handicapped, etc. -- well, you should know there is a problem with this. Keith
#6 rexracerjr Mar 08, 2009 8:20:00	by hitting on one of them I only said 37 Staff/length jokes to her about my wizard. And that mountain dew spill was unintentional. She shouldn't have worn white anyway. Oh, who am I kidding. She is Hawt!
#7 gadren Mar 08, 2009 16:32:45	I only said 37 Staff/length jokes to her about my wizard. And that mountain dew spill was unintentional. She shouldn't have worn white anyway. Oh, who am I kidding. She is Hawt! Heh. Insert Rod of Wonder joke. Anyways, it's good to know that if I'm GMing at an event, I have the option to turn problem players away.
#8 Jay_Ibero_911 Mar 08, 2009 17:54:15	Hmm...I have no idea when it changed, but I know there used to be a rule saying that if there was an opening at the table, that no player could be turned away if they had a legal character. As to the player in question in this topic, it sounds like they were certainly repeatedly disruptive, in which case they could be ejected from the event. And as other's have mentioned, beyond RPGA rules, whoever is the owner/in charge of the location can ask the person in question to leave. There's also the possible legal consequences, because the player he's been hitting on could very well claim sexual harassment. All in all, it sounds like at the very least, this player is simply not compatible with the rest of the group.
#9 gadren Mar 08, 2009 20:38:53	Hmm...I have no idea when it changed, but I know there used to be a rule saying that if there was an opening at the table, that no player could be turned away if they had a legal character. As to the player in question in this topic, it sounds like they were certainly repeatedly disruptive, in which case they could be ejected from the event. And as other's have mentioned, beyond RPGA rules, whoever is the owner/in charge of the location can ask the person in question to leave. There's also the possible legal consequences, because the player he's been hitting on could very well claim sexual harassment. All in all, it sounds like at the very least, this player is simply not compatible with the rest of the group. "This player" was purely hypothetical. I was just thinking of problems I've had with people who've responded to ads and come to my home games before. I always meet players for my home games outside of my home beforehand (because... it's my home), and there have actually been two cases where I didn't let a person join because they REEKED. (Though I just told them I felt they wouldn't be a very good fit. How do you tell someone they smell like manure wrapped in garbage?). I stopped inviting another player who wanted to bang every NPC and was rather... explicit about it. I was just curious how these kinds of situations might go in the RPGA.
#10 pedr Mar 09, 2009 2:14:49	I don't think even the broadest interpretation of the 'rights' the RPGA rules give to players would give the RPGA any interest in regulating who you do or do not invite to your home. Home events are not public, they are not listed on the RPGA events calendar, and who plays is up to the organiser. I imagine the issues with public events are hold-overs from the tournament/large-convention focus of the early RPGA - and reasoning by analogy from DCI rules, though I don't know how they deal with similar problems.
#11 JohnLynch Mar 09, 2009 2:21:28	Hmm...I have no idea when it changed, but I know there used to be a rule saying that if there was an opening at the table, that no player could be turned away if they had a legal character. That rule might have been referring to saying "sure Bob! You can play" and then discovering they're playing a drow and turning around to say "Oh wait, you can't play that character. I don't like drow so I don't let them at my table." Or it could be an LG rule or it could be you dreamt the rule up :P Personally though, as a GM I would never say "You can't play character X because I don't like them" and as a player if I saw a GM do that to another player, I would quite willingly leave the table myself.
#12 WolfStar76 Mar 09, 2009 11:03:52	Hmm...I have no idea when it changed, but I know there used to be a rule saying that if there was an opening at the table, that no player could be turned away if they had a legal character. If they show up to a table with a legal character - yes, you can interpret it as such. The catch is that the venue (game store, convention, etc) can deny access to a player - keeping them away from the table in the first place. The Senior GM of an event has some discretion as well in organizing events, and determining how one qualifies for a table/who gets seated.
#13 gc1ceo Mar 09, 2009 13:26:43	Yea I doubt the RPGA would get involved, personally I'd be weary of any organization that forced me to seat players unless they gave me some kind of prior approval to not seat them. That being said, generally a store or event has some kind of code of conduct that probably can govern that sort of thing. But being somebody who has a couple of problem players who could potentially show up I can definitely understand the concern, and actual the hypothetical situation you made up is the exact attributes to a guy that nobody will seat in my group except in our larp where he generally keeps to himself (although the bad hygiene bit is only occasional...). If bad puns got you kicked out of a group I'd be in no games, although I try and behave more when I'm at an event that isn't local or a store.
#14 gc1ceo Mar 09, 2009 13:28:18	That rule might have been referring to saying "sure Bob! You can play" and then discovering they're playing a drow and turning around to say "Oh wait, you can't play that character. I don't like drow so I don't let them at my table." Or it could be an LG rule or it could be you dreamt the rule up :P Personally though, as a GM I would never say "You can't play character X because I don't like them" and as a player if I saw a GM do that to another player, I would quite willingly leave the table myself. Frankly it does sound like the rule is meant for, especially at a bigger event where each LFR GM should be following the same basic rule set and one can't suddenly decide they won't allow Drow characters.
#15 bgibbons Mar 09, 2009 13:51:37	If they show up to a table with a legal character - yes, you can interpret it as such. Not even then. A particular event might have that rule, but that's a different matter. As far as the RPGA is concerned, a GM is never forced to run any particular table. If the GM wants to walk away from the table when he sees who sits down or what they're playing, he's free to do so. Now, the event organizer might have a problem with that, but that's a separate issue. To reiterate: - If you are the event organizer, it is within the scope of your powers to decide who can and cannot play an adventure. (You may have to justify your decision to others, but it's unlikely that the RPGA will be one of those who cares.) - If you are a GM at an event, you are free to decide that you don't want a particular player at your table, and won't judge if he's seated at your table. How to deal with that (and any repercussions to your actions) is up to the event organizer. That said, none of this will really matter the overwhelmingly majority of the time, due to the level of conflict-averseness in most gaming circles. -- Brian Gibbons.
#16 Dragon9 Mar 10, 2009 21:51:13	Hmm...I have no idea when it changed, but I know there used to be a rule saying that if there was an opening at the table, that no player could be turned away if they had a legal character. I think that used to be a Living Arcanis rule. Or maybe you were thinking of Origins/Gencon rules where a real ticket holder couldn't be turned away in favor of a generic?
#17 dbeman Mar 13, 2009 9:48:15	There are RPGA rules, there are venue/convention rules, there are local/state/federal laws, and there is common sense. All of which can have some bearing on whether or not a player may have a seat at your gaming table. For example, if you were playing an adventure at a bar or a pub, you likely wouldn't seat a 12 year old player regardless of table space or the legality of his or her character. If you're playing at a store and a potential player is banned from the premises by management you're not entitled to give them a seat. The same would apply if a player was ejected from a convention hall. Worst case scenario is that the person in question will file a complaint with the RPGA, and I'd imagine that as long as you can provide a valid reason as to why that person wasn't allowed to play you should be covered.