Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ibixat Jun 15, 2009 8:15:34	Ok I have some thoughts about revenants I want to hammer out with people and I want to avoid the fluffy RP aspects and just deal with some mechanics issues. First - anyone else agree that non-legal races for standard characters are in fact legal as the "Past Life" race choice. It doesn't seem to have any limits. Second - Unnatural Vitality - well nevermind on this one, for some reason I thought regeneration stopped at unconscious not at 0 or lower hp, that makes it a not as crazy a combo =P Though a Bard with Stirring Shout on a big bad guy and the revenant getting pummeled below 0 every round and then hitting him with that one standard action to heal, pushing them back to above 0 each round... that would be entertaining.
#2 mwao_dup Jun 15, 2009 8:43:36	First - anyone else agree that non-legal races for standard characters are in fact legal as the "Past Life" race choice. It doesn't seem to have any limits. I wouldn't agree. I'd say when it says 'pick a race' it means pick a race that you could legally take. I'd also note that despite the apparent racial background, the revenant isn't necessarily the same appearance. You could have a Gnome or Halfling revenant who is still going to be medium-sized regardless(and at least 5' tall)
#3 pedr Jun 15, 2009 8:51:07	First - anyone else agree that non-legal races for standard characters are in fact legal as the "Past Life" race choice. It doesn't seem to have any limits. My take on this is: Past Life requires you to choose a race. We therefore have to decide what 'race' means, and what is valid when choosing one. Race is clearly a particular sort of rules-item, and we know how to identify the list of rules-items available to be chosen in LFR: we look at the table in the CCG which identifies player resources. I would consider, then, that if told to choose a race, you have to choose a race which is available to you in Living Forgotten Realms.
#4 ibixat Jun 15, 2009 8:52:58	I wouldn't agree. I'd say when it says 'pick a race' it means pick a race that you could legally take. I'd also note that despite the apparent racial background, the revenant isn't necessarily the same appearance. You could have a Gnome or Halfling revenant who is still going to be medium-sized regardless(and at least 5' tall) I guess what I'm looking for is raw not really rai. Sure they probably mean for you to pick the standard races, just like they never meant for reparation apparatus to be so ungodly on warforged, but it's not how they spelled it out. All it says is pick a race, an since you can only gain mechanical benefit from it if it's one of the ones they make feats for, any race that they don't make feats for is roughly identical. Orcs, Deva, Gnolls and Bladelings being 4 "legals" that don't have feats, what difference is it if I'm a Kobold or a Deva at that point. It's just how the character looks then.
#5 ibixat Jun 15, 2009 8:57:50	My take on this is: Past Life requires you to choose a race. We therefore have to decide what 'race' means, and what is valid when choosing one. Race is clearly a particular sort of rules-item, and we know how to identify the list of rules-items available to be chosen in LFR: we look at the table in the CCG which identifies player resources. I would consider, then, that if told to choose a race, you have to choose a race which is available to you in Living Forgotten Realms. Player Races is a specific List in LFR, Races is a game term that refers to a lot more than just player races. It will be interesting to see how the Character Builder makes it work. I imagine you'll pick a "revenant race" just like a stat for darkfire on drow etc.
#6 mwao_dup Jun 15, 2009 9:23:34	Player Races is a specific List in LFR, Races is a game term that refers to a lot more than just player races. Right, but you're a player...
#7 ibixat Jun 15, 2009 9:36:58	Right, but you're a player... Yes I am, and my player legal race at this point is Revenant, which gives me an option to pick a race from a non-specified list as a Racial feature.
#8 mwao_dup Jun 15, 2009 9:48:46	Yes I am, and my player legal race at this point is Revenant, which gives me an option to pick a race from a non-specified list as a Racial feature. And that race needs to be from a legal resource...monster manual is not a legal resource.
#9 pedr Jun 15, 2009 10:20:36	Player Races is a specific List in LFR, Races is a game term that refers to a lot more than just player races. You know what, I'm not sure I agree, under RAW. Do monsters have races? No-one would imagine that you could take 'Beholder' as your race, and I'm not sure there's a real difference between 'Beholder' and 'Elf', unless you are a PC. To a certain degree, 'Elf' doesn't really exist - only 'Elf ' as a monster. I don't think that the fact that some monsters have statistics at the back of the MMs allowing a DM to turn them into races makes them races, in the core rules. The designers' intent which they seem to have effectively written into the rules is that 'races' are things which are listed at the front of PHs and Players' Guides and on DDI, in 'Races' chapters or with the word 'race' attached. Orcs and Bladelings are only on that list if the GM says they are; when the core rules say 'choose a race' they mean choose one of the things available as a player race - as 'race' doesn't really mean anything else.
#10 bgibbons Jun 15, 2009 10:28:30	Yes I am, and my player legal race at this point is Revenant, which gives me an option to pick a race from a non-specified list as a Racial feature. I think it's a reasonable assumption that you can only choose a valid player race. The Monster Manual is as legal an option in the campaign as is the Star Wars d20 rulebook. You can't pick a bullywug any more than you can pick a wookie.
#11 matblack76 Jun 15, 2009 12:24:36	I think it's a reasonable assumption that you can only choose a valid player race. The Monster Manual is as legal an option in the campaign as is the Star Wars d20 rulebook. You can't pick a bullywug any more than you can pick a wookie. but you can pick a wookie's bullywug... wait, i don't think that's the way the punchline is supposed to go. anyway, i would imagine that the intention of the rule is certainly that you would be limited to the options that you would have in LFR. however, that being said, at the moment, there is absolutely no difference (as ibixat has pointed out) mechanically to choosing deva or kobold or bullywug or wookie or newt gingrich. there wouldn't even be any physical difference since revenants do no not look like they did in life, and little other benefit since revenants don't even have full access to their memories. in the end, if it doens't provide any different mechanical options, nor even physical or other differences, i wouldn't think there'd be any problem taking it. even if a wookie reincarnated as a revenant might make me roll my eyes, if it's not actually problematic, is there really a reason to argue it? now, if you chose a bullywug and then WotC put out the Bullywugicon I full of feats, PPs, and stuff, and it wasn't a player-legal resource, i'd say that you may want to rethink what you originally were, or at the very least, accept that you still wouldn't have access to that book.
#12 Dragon9 Jun 15, 2009 13:03:28	I would say, while not mechanically limited, you shouldn't pick a Deva. They always reincarnate and don't die. Why would they come back as a Revenant? Second, there's nothign to really stop you from saying you're an Orc Revenant. When it comes right down to it, there's nothing for you if you do. There's no Orc only options. There's no Orc Soul feat in the Revenant article. So you could say you were originally an Orc, but since we're speaking mechanically and not fluffily (I know, that isn't a word) why would you want to? You gain no benefit from it.
#13 kinevon Jun 15, 2009 23:45:43	I think it's a reasonable assumption that you can only choose a valid player race. The Monster Manual is as legal an option in the campaign as is the Star Wars d20 rulebook. You can't pick a bullywug any more than you can pick a wookie. But I want to be an Ewok Revenant! In the SWSE DoD campaign. ;)
#14 gomeztoo Jun 16, 2009 2:00:51	Picking a race is a player character option. Player character options (all of them, not just races) have to be taken from a player resource. MMs are not a player resource, so you can't take a player option out of it. So no, bullywugs (for instance) are not a valid option in LFR. Gomez
#15 ibixat Jun 16, 2009 2:55:51	Picking a race is a player character option. Player character options (all of them, not just races) have to be taken from a player resource. MMs are not a player resource, so you can't take a player option out of it. So no, bullywugs (for instance) are not a valid option in LFR. Gomez While I agree with you that picking a race is a player character option. But I've already done that, I picked revanant, now I get to pick a race that I for all intents and purposes "emulate" or once was. At this point I'm "Picking a race" not "Picking my character's actual race". I find that to be a pretty big distinction. *Edited to Add* I do see what you mean about the MM choices not being legal because they are not a player option. That argument makes more sense to me.
#16 pedr Jun 16, 2009 3:52:17	Can anyone show me where the word 'race' is used in the rules apart from referring to a player character option? It might be there and I've missed it. If it isn't, then - in the rules as written - the only races are those available to players. Everything else, like 'Beholder' and 'Human Mage' are something else.
#17 ibixat Jun 16, 2009 4:33:39	Can anyone show me where the word 'race' is used in the rules apart from referring to a player character option? It might be there and I've missed it. If it isn't, then - in the rules as written - the only races are those available to players. Everything else, like 'Beholder' and 'Human Mage' are something else. Page 6 of the Monster Manual If the monster’s name doesn’t include its race, the race is added after the monster’s type and keywords. For example, the snaketongue assassin is categorized as a “Medium natural humanoid (shapechanger), human.” Not a player resource but a core book for rules definitions Page 10 referring to abominations They’re now a race unto themselves, inhabiting the Astral Sea. Page 88 referencing Dragonspawn Over time, each dragonspawn became a new race witha temperament much like that of the dragon it resembles. Page 150 of the DMG Goblins, orcs, gnolls, and kobolds—along with plenty of other races in the Monster Manual—were never part of that human empire Race is not a player only thing.
#18 josephkell Jun 17, 2009 21:43:28	My take on this is: Past Life requires you to choose a race. We therefore have to decide what 'race' means, and what is valid when choosing one. Race is clearly a particular sort of rules-item, and we know how to identify the list of rules-items available to be chosen in LFR: we look at the table in the CCG which identifies player resources. I would consider, then, that if told to choose a race, you have to choose a race which is available to you in Living Forgotten Realms. No, I am sure you could say "I am a Revanent that used to be a Lizardfolk." However, since there are no feats that require Lizardfolk as a prereq, it means that choosing Lizardfolk locks me out of say... Human Perseverance and Stubborn Survivor. If you pick a race that doesn't have feats keyed to it, it is your loss (until such racial feats are released). But if you simply must, go ahead and be a Revanent that used to be an Ancient Red Wyrm.
#19 telvin3d Jun 17, 2009 22:31:40	It's one of those things that is unlikely to not be a problem but isn't worth the potential hassle. Sure, right now picking lizardfolk has no real issue right now. However, if the convention reward card a year down the road is 'lizardfolk' you could be setting yourself up for some awkward explanations.
#20 matblack76 Jun 18, 2009 0:10:56	It's one of those things that is unlikely to not be a problem but isn't worth the potential hassle. Sure, right now picking lizardfolk has no real issue right now. However, if the convention reward card a year down the road is 'lizardfolk' you could be setting yourself up for some awkward explanations. only if the card somehow came with a slew of lizardfolk racial feats and pps... and then it would only be a problem if you didn't actually have the card and insisted on playing the character and demanded to have access to those options anyway. i would expect to see lizardfolk to show up in a dragon article before seeing them as a rewards card, anyway. and that situation pretty much solves itself. personally, i'll be sticking to lfr legal options when i make mine, but i would have no problem as a table dm or a senior dm if someone chose a revenant race that provided absolutely no benefit to them or stood no chance to cause problems.
#21 amysrevenge Jun 18, 2009 12:38:57	I just don't see the big deal. If you pick a "legal" race then you might be able to pick up some feats or a paragon path. If you don't, then you won't. Someone wants to be the revenant of a tarrasque or a pixie or a mind flayer? Big whup. It's a roleplaying schtick. Call them on it if they demostrate more memory of their previous life than the article calls for ("snippets", "flashes of insight", etc.), but otherwise let them have their fun.
#22 WolfStar76 Jun 19, 2009 7:57:35	I just don't see the big deal. If you pick a "legal" race then you might be able to pick up some feats or a paragon path. If you don't, then you won't. Someone wants to be the revenant of a tarrasque or a pixie or a mind flayer? Big whup. It's a roleplaying schtick. Call them on it if they demostrate more memory of their previous life than the article calls for ("snippets", "flashes of insight", etc.), but otherwise let them have their fun. In a loosely related note I now have this concept itching in my brain for an Eberron campaign (no details yet, mind you, and not yet fully Eberron converted, but the concept/spark is there). Tiamat (or Khyber, or some other nasty source) is up to no good, perhaps bringing some Dracoliches to bear in some Nasty Plot©. Bahamut (or Eberron - maybe even Siberys) in a bid to stop this plot brings to live a part of Revenants with the spirits of noble Dragons. Revenants are used because key portions of the plot are taking place on Khorvaire, and these "dragons" need to be able to (relatively) easily move among humankind. Dunno why, but it's a concept that appeals to me. Just have to go back and fill in the details (what's the Nasty Plot, what are my ultimate forces of Good and Evil, can a party full of Revenants really work?) [/derail]
#23 anubis_reynard Jun 19, 2009 16:07:40	Dragonborn-soul makes an adiquate representation of the powers of the larger dragons, expecially if they go for the Scion of Arkhosia PP.
#24 Vamroc Jun 19, 2009 18:17:15	I guess what I'm looking for is raw not really rai. Sure they probably mean for you to pick the standard races, just like they never meant for reparation apparatus to be so ungodly on warforged, but it's not how they spelled it out. All it says is pick a race, an since you can only gain mechanical benefit from it if it's one of the ones they make feats for, any race that they don't make feats for is roughly identical. Orcs, Deva, Gnolls and Bladelings being 4 "legals" that don't have feats, what difference is it if I'm a Kobold or a Deva at that point. It's just how the character looks then. Not true Deva, Half Orcs, have a few feats and Gnolls have a lot of them can't speak for Bladlings but every race I've seen has at least a hand full of feats devoted too them
#25 ibixat Jun 19, 2009 18:58:44	Not true Deva, Half Orcs, have a few feats and Gnolls have a lot of them can't speak for Bladlings but every race I've seen has at least a hand full of feats devoted too them They don't have Revenant feats to gain their racial powers. All other legal player races have a revenant/race feat to allow them to pick up something from their race.
#26 Vamroc Jun 19, 2009 21:39:57	They don't have Revenant feats to gain their racial powers. All other legal player races have a revenant/race feat to allow them to pick up something from their race. I see the point your trying to make now
#27 gomeztoo Jun 24, 2009 4:16:37	I just don't see the big deal. I don't think it's a big deal either (power wise etc) - right now, anyway (can't say what odd rules twists you get in the future). I don't hink people are going to argue if you are a revenant that used to be a troglodyte, bullywug, or goblin. But I do think the choice counts as a player option (like feats, classes, and most anything else you select for a PC) and therefor structly speaking follows player option rules. I would just be careful in opting on it - lest a later revision/clarification makes your character illegal. But I generally assume the more restrictive versions of the rules for safety, and nobody ever seems to agree. Gomez