Rules Updates and Characters - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Rules Updates and Characters

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
jeremiah_legrue
Nov 21, 2009 18:59:05 I am organizer for an RPGA group and have recently been getting questions from a player whose Eladrin Urgrosh-wielding tempest fighter was severely nerfed by recent rules updates. The Character creation guide offers no specific advice on what extent of re-working or re-training is allowed in this case.

While nothing about the character is illegal, the player feels that he would never have gone down this character path with the updated rules. He does not wish to play it in its current state.

Are there explicit guidelines for re-working the character?

On a related note, my Warlock's Rod of Reaving (which was acquired as a found magical item) no longer does what I need it to. I play a melee-oriented Dwarf warlock who likes to curse minions to get quick temp hp early in combat before wading into melee. However, with the updated property for the Rod, I never would have selected it as a found magic item.

What are my options?

Please note, I am asking the above questions mostly to see if there are official rulings or at least widely accepted protocols.

I have already decided to allow the player to completely re-work his character from scratch because we play so rarely that I really feel it is unfair and detrimental to the group to waste the effort and time this player has put into his character by making him retrain out of his investment over 4 or 5 levels or start fresh.

In the case of the warlock, I think I will redact the choice of magical item from the adventure in which it was received and take the extra gold.

#2
melos
Nov 21, 2009 19:07:09 There is a thread here that discusses the issue.

Right now there are no special rules for changing characters affected by the November updates. They can use the normal retraining rules when they level up. For magic items they are stuck with them unless Transfer Enchantment can be used to move the enchantment to a different weapon/armor type.
#3
Dragon9
Nov 22, 2009 10:37:14 For now they will have to follow the retraining rules. If/when the campaign issues a guidance on how to handle the errata with rules for swapping out such things (if at all) then you can take advantage of it at that time.

So officially, until somethign else is officially stated, the current recourse is:

Tempest player: use the current retraining rules. If mass retraining ends up being allowed at a later date for this situatoion then they can take advantage of it then. It's up to the player to decide if they want to play the PC in the mean time.

Your rod of reaving: you can sell it for 20% of its value or hang on to it to see if they allow you ot swap it out.

We all know everyone wants to know what to do with their characters when they are affected by these changes, but a little patience is needed. They just got released, Chris Tulach is out of the country at the moment, and the admins need time to discuss things. Most of the admins have been discussing this (if what I read in the other thread is correct) so once Tulach gets back they shoudl be able to deal with it quickly.
#4
_Mithreinmaethor_
Nov 22, 2009 13:50:10 Your Tempest player has not lost all that much:

+1 to hit with both ends
+1 to damage with the Axe head

Thats it. Nothing overwhelmingly nerfed there.
#5
Mommy_was_an_Orc
Nov 22, 2009 19:30:49
Your Tempest player has not lost all that much:

+1 to hit with both ends
+1 to damage with the Axe head

Thats it. Nothing overwhelmingly nerfed there.

While it is hard to be certain without seeing the sheet, that's not likely what happened. Before the update, the Urgrosh had the properties of both a spear and axe on both ends. That meant taking Eladrin Soldier made you proficient with both ends.

So imagine the following 4th level character in terms of feats:
1: Eladrin Soldier
2: Two-Weapon Fighting
4: Weapon Expertise(Spear)

Okay, look what happens - he's not proficient with the axe part of the Urgrosh, he does extra damage with the primary axe part, and he's only getting a +1 to hit with the Spear end of the Urgrosh. Assuming that he has a +2 Urgrosh and a 17 Str, he used to do the following with say a melee basic:
1d12+10(+3 Str, +2 Eladrin Soldier, +2 Tempest, +2 Urgrosh, +1 TWF) and would have a +9(+3 Str, +1 Expertise, +2 level, +1 Tempest, +2 Proficiency) to hit.

Now here are the two options:
1d12+6(+3 Str, +2 Urgrosh, +1 TWF) and would have a +5(+3 Str, +2 level) to hit.
1d6+9(+3 Str, +2 Eladrin Soldier, +2 Tempest, +2 Urgrosh) and would have a +9(+3 Str, +1 Expertise, +2 level, +1 Tempest, +2 Proficiency) to hit.

i.e. he either just took a -4 penalty to damage/hit on the axe end or he's using the 1d6 spear end and taking an average of about -5 to damage.

And remember, the Tempest, due to powers such as Dual Strike is going to be forced to use both ends or with spear powers, use the 1d6 end.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jeremiah_legrue Nov 21, 2009 18:59:05	I am organizer for an RPGA group and have recently been getting questions from a player whose Eladrin Urgrosh-wielding tempest fighter was severely nerfed by recent rules updates. The Character creation guide offers no specific advice on what extent of re-working or re-training is allowed in this case. While nothing about the character is illegal, the player feels that he would never have gone down this character path with the updated rules. He does not wish to play it in its current state. Are there explicit guidelines for re-working the character? On a related note, my Warlock's Rod of Reaving (which was acquired as a found magical item) no longer does what I need it to. I play a melee-oriented Dwarf warlock who likes to curse minions to get quick temp hp early in combat before wading into melee. However, with the updated property for the Rod, I never would have selected it as a found magic item. What are my options? Please note, I am asking the above questions mostly to see if there are official rulings or at least widely accepted protocols. I have already decided to allow the player to completely re-work his character from scratch because we play so rarely that I really feel it is unfair and detrimental to the group to waste the effort and time this player has put into his character by making him retrain out of his investment over 4 or 5 levels or start fresh. In the case of the warlock, I think I will redact the choice of magical item from the adventure in which it was received and take the extra gold.
#2 melos Nov 21, 2009 19:07:09	There is a thread here that discusses the issue. Right now there are no special rules for changing characters affected by the November updates. They can use the normal retraining rules when they level up. For magic items they are stuck with them unless Transfer Enchantment can be used to move the enchantment to a different weapon/armor type.
#3 Dragon9 Nov 22, 2009 10:37:14	For now they will have to follow the retraining rules. If/when the campaign issues a guidance on how to handle the errata with rules for swapping out such things (if at all) then you can take advantage of it at that time. So officially, until somethign else is officially stated, the current recourse is: Tempest player: use the current retraining rules. If mass retraining ends up being allowed at a later date for this situatoion then they can take advantage of it then. It's up to the player to decide if they want to play the PC in the mean time. Your rod of reaving: you can sell it for 20% of its value or hang on to it to see if they allow you ot swap it out. We all know everyone wants to know what to do with their characters when they are affected by these changes, but a little patience is needed. They just got released, Chris Tulach is out of the country at the moment, and the admins need time to discuss things. Most of the admins have been discussing this (if what I read in the other thread is correct) so once Tulach gets back they shoudl be able to deal with it quickly.
#4 _Mithreinmaethor_ Nov 22, 2009 13:50:10	Your Tempest player has not lost all that much: +1 to hit with both ends +1 to damage with the Axe head Thats it. Nothing overwhelmingly nerfed there.
#5 Mommy_was_an_Orc Nov 22, 2009 19:30:49	Your Tempest player has not lost all that much: +1 to hit with both ends +1 to damage with the Axe head Thats it. Nothing overwhelmingly nerfed there. While it is hard to be certain without seeing the sheet, that's not likely what happened. Before the update, the Urgrosh had the properties of both a spear and axe on both ends. That meant taking Eladrin Soldier made you proficient with both ends. So imagine the following 4th level character in terms of feats: 1: Eladrin Soldier 2: Two-Weapon Fighting 4: Weapon Expertise(Spear) Okay, look what happens - he's not proficient with the axe part of the Urgrosh, he does extra damage with the primary axe part, and he's only getting a +1 to hit with the Spear end of the Urgrosh. Assuming that he has a +2 Urgrosh and a 17 Str, he used to do the following with say a melee basic: 1d12+10(+3 Str, +2 Eladrin Soldier, +2 Tempest, +2 Urgrosh, +1 TWF) and would have a +9(+3 Str, +1 Expertise, +2 level, +1 Tempest, +2 Proficiency) to hit. Now here are the two options: 1d12+6(+3 Str, +2 Urgrosh, +1 TWF) and would have a +5(+3 Str, +2 level) to hit. 1d6+9(+3 Str, +2 Eladrin Soldier, +2 Tempest, +2 Urgrosh) and would have a +9(+3 Str, +1 Expertise, +2 level, +1 Tempest, +2 Proficiency) to hit. i.e. he either just took a -4 penalty to damage/hit on the axe end or he's using the 1d6 spear end and taking an average of about -5 to damage. And remember, the Tempest, due to powers such as Dual Strike is going to be forced to use both ends or with spear powers, use the 1d6 end.