Nice my post gets eaten to. So to recap my question with the feat:
Sorcererous Blade Channeling (AP).
This only works if you are a STR based sorceror, right? Otherwise you're going to be trying to hit AC with probably a base +3 (dagger prof) +0 (or -1 with 8 str). +3 vs. AC base isn't really going to work.
Maybe I'm missing something. I tried a search for FAQ or updates on this feat but I was unable to get a clarification.
Sorcererous Blade Channeling (AP).
This only works if you are a STR based sorceror, right? Otherwise you're going to be trying to hit AC with probably a base +3 (dagger prof) +0 (or -1 with 8 str). +3 vs. AC base isn't really going to work.
Maybe I'm missing something. I tried a search for FAQ or updates on this feat but I was unable to get a clarification.
From the Compendium:
When you use any ranged sorcerer attack power through a dagger, you can use the power as a melee attack. If you do so, the power’s range equals your melee reach.
The only thing that changes is that your range attack becomes melee. So your Acid Orb is still Charisma vs Reflex.
Does not work with OA's.
Flanking provides no benefit.
All dagger-related feats and bonuses (such as class, race, paragon/epic paths) do not apply. Only those that apply to dagger as an implement.
Thanks!
2) Flanking is not dependant on the type of attack. You can flank with a ranged attack, a melee attack, a close attack, etc. You just need an eligible flanker (i.e. not dazed, not blind, able to make opportunity attacks, etc) in the eligible square to benefit from the flank. You would provide a flank with your dagger, because you can make opportunity attacks, you just can't deliver sorcerer powers that are not specifically "basic attacks" (not ranged) with them.
3) All dagger feats, bonuses, etc... would apply unless they specifically say they don't. For example, the errata on Daggermaster allows you to crit on an 18-20 only on dagger attacks that are rogue or Daggermaster powers. Weapon focus, nimble blade, etc would all work.
1) It's not that SBC doesn't work with OA's per se, it's that you would need to use a power that is eligible as a melee basic attack. Acid Orb and Dragonfrost, for example, allow you to use them as ranged basic attacks, but SBC doesn't change that to allowing them to be used as melee basic attacks. If there is a sorcerer power that can be used as a "basic attack" or "melee basic attack" then it would work - but I am not aware of such a power.
The end result is it doesn't work with OA's.
2) Flanking is not dependant on the type of attack. You can flank with a ranged attack, a melee attack, a close attack, etc. You just need an eligible flanker (i.e. not dazed, not blind, able to make opportunity attacks, etc) in the eligible square to benefit from the flank. You would provide a flank with your dagger, because you can make opportunity attacks, you just can't deliver sorcerer powers that are not specifically "basic attacks" (not ranged) with them.
Odd but yeah. I read the text. Taken literally the terms flanking->combat advantage do not specify that they only apply with melee attacks. Bit of a loophole here. Has anyone seen errata to the contrary?
3) All dagger feats, bonuses, etc... would apply unless they specifically say they don't. For example, the errata on Daggermaster allows you to crit on an 18-20 only on dagger attacks that are rogue or Daggermaster powers. Weapon focus, nimble blade, etc would all work.
If you were attacking with the dagger as a weapon sure. I'm referring to sorcerous powers channeling through it. The dagger is NOT a weapon in this case, it's still an implement. Weapon focus would not work. You're not attacking with the dagger as a weapon. You're making a melee attack with your sorcerous power.
Weapon Focus Choose a specific weapon group. You gain a +1 feat bonus to damage rolls with your chosen weapon group.
Nimble Blade When you attack with a light blade and you have combat advantage, you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls.
Unfortunately, official ruling is that they do. You're using the dagger to make the attack (casting a spell through it), and a dagger is a light blade, so the attack qualifies for weapon focus and nimble blade.
Ironically, it was pointed out to me by my gf, who never played 3rd ed, so she didn't have the immediate flanking=melee paradigm that I had originally.
If you think about it from a story perspective, 4e flanking makes more sense. If the guy behind you has a loaded bow and arrow aimed at you and the guy in front of you is crackling magical energy out of his wand that shoots lighting, you're going to have to pay attention to both of them, just as you would if they both had axes.
There's the problem - you're applying logic. Weapon Focus shouldn't work for implement powers. Nimble Blade shouldn't work for implement powers.
Unfortunately, official ruling is that they do. You're using the dagger to make the attack (casting a spell through it), and a dagger is a light blade, so the attack qualifies for weapon focus and nimble blade.
I'd love to be able to say that to my RPGA judges...could you please help out and provide the reference?
As I stated I did several searches and was unable to find anything official on the matter. Per my previous post I do get the flanking thing though.
3) All dagger feats, bonuses, etc... would apply unless they specifically say they don't. For example, the errata on Daggermaster allows you to crit on an 18-20 only on dagger attacks that are rogue or Daggermaster powers. Weapon focus, nimble blade, etc would all work.
If you were attacking with the dagger as a weapon sure. I'm referring to sorcerous powers channeling through it. The dagger is NOT a weapon in this case, it's still an implement. Weapon focus would not work. You're not attacking with the dagger as a weapon. You're making a melee attack with your sorcerous power.Weapon Focus Choose a specific weapon group. You gain a +1 feat bonus to damage rolls with your chosen weapon group.Nimble Blade When you attack with a light blade and you have combat advantage, you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls.
A weapon does not stop being a weapon when it is being used as an implement. It counts as both.
From the PHB FAQ:
15. I am using a weapon as an implement, like a long sword for a Wizard of the Spiral Tower or a weapon from the staff weapon group as a Staff implement, do I gain the extra damage from feats like Weapon Focus?
Yes, you do gain this bonus to damage.
A Flaming Weapon (PH1) has a power that says "All damage dealt by this weapon is fire damage." PH3 page 216 says this effect works for implement powers used with the weapon. It changes all of your implement power damage to fire damage.
Another example is the Siberys Shard of the Mage from the Eberron Player's Guide. It has a property of "You gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with implement attacks that use the augmented weapon." For this item to work, it would have to be an implement and a weapon at the same time.
The only time when things like this do not work is when something says "weapon attack". That wording is specifying that the power you use needs to have the weapon keyword in order to get the effect. PH3 page 219 says what happens when you are using a weapon as an implement. Basically all you lose is the proficiency bonus and the non-magical weapon properties such as reach, off-hand, versatile, etc. You do not lose the weapon group, magical properties, or the fact that it is a weapon you are making your implement attacks with.
There's the problem - you're applying logic. Weapon Focus shouldn't work for implement powers. Nimble Blade shouldn't work for implement powers.
Unfortunately, official ruling is that they do. You're using the dagger to make the attack (casting a spell through it), and a dagger is a light blade, so the attack qualifies for weapon focus and nimble blade.
Nimble Blade
When you attack with a light blade and you have combat advantage, you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls.
Why does it matter that it is a weapon attack or an implement attack? You are still attacking with the light blade. Based on the wording of the feat, it is logical that any attack made with that light blade would get the bonus. It is fortunate that it works this way so classes that use light blades as implements have some feats they can take for their implement/weapons.
All dagger-related feats and bonuses (such as class, race, paragon/epic paths) do not apply. Only those that apply to dagger as an implement.
Thanks!
As others have stated, they do apply. You can also take things like two-weapon fighting (while holding a melee weapon in each hand, you gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with your main weapon) which stacks nicely with dual-implement spellcaster.
Allen.
I'd love to be able to say that to my RPGA judges...could you please help out and provide the reference?
As I stated I did several searches and was unable to find anything official on the matter. Per my previous post I do get the flanking thing though.
Sure. Each ability or power tells you what it requires to function.
If a power or ability specifically states that it requires a melee attack (or a weapon keyword) to function, then it requires such.
If it does not state such, then no such requirement exists.
There's a similar thing with implement properties. If an implement property states that it functions when a power is cast "with this implement", you have to use that implement to get the benefit of the property. If the implement property merely states it goes off when a particular power is cast, you can cast with a second implement and just hold the first implement in your off-hand.
It's all very literal.
WotC is writing or updating most powers to specifically say "with this weapon or implement" or "with a weapon/implement keyword" these days, however.
For example, the Master's Wand of Magic Missile right now doesn't specify that you have to cast Magic Missile through it to get the Push 1 property, so at this time you can just hold it in your offhand and get that property on ANY Magic Missiles you cast. Given WotC's track record, though, I would not be surprised it it gets errata'd later to require you cast through it, to get the benefit.
-karma