Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 wizzzzzard Apr 28, 2009 12:06:03	Howdy everyone. My current group has an issue or two, and thought I'd poll the audience to see what kind of possible solutions that can be implementde to help easily resolve these issues. First up, we are running LFR mainly becuase of our size. We are a collection of friends & associates who've been gaming together off and on for about 10 years. If we're all present and accounted for, we are 18. Eighteen. No that's not a typo. Another reason we are playing LFR is becuase many of us, do not have the time to devote to creating a campaign. Others, do not have the drive or desire. Another reason, as real life is wont to intrude, we're not all always present and accounted for. We usually have 13 or 14 folks present. Now, a large # of us take turns DM'ing. Some do not, but thanks to a general consensus, we agree that some folks should not DM. (They are just that bad at it.) These are also usually the people that miss sessions from time to time thanks to Real Life. It balances out. Sort of. Here's what's going to happen: This Friday we expect that 15 of our group will be present. This number is expected to remain constant throughout the month of May due to Real Life taking away 3 of our members, all of whom we expect to return in June. At the conclusion of Friday's session, 13 of the 15 will have 8th level characters. (Well one has a 7th level , but he'll be 8th as soon as he gets one more mod under his belt.) Of the remaining two: one will have a 6th level character, the other will have a 3rd level character. We have been playing a table of the Spellgard Adaptable, and a table of a 4-7 mod, or a 1-4 mod. Sometimes running 1 of each, for a total of 3 tables. The 13 (of which I am one) are ready to start playing in 7-10 mods. Of course the two can not. We can seat 3 tables in the location we use, a game/hobby store, with plenty of room and tables. The two lower level players are female. One is the daughter of one of the 8th level players (Calling her F). The other is the girlfriend of another (Calling her A.) F has a character she can play in a 1-4. A has only characters at level 3 and lower. They are both recent arrivals to our group. We have a spreadsheet we use for a schedule, and we have 12 people willing and able to DM. 7 of those 12 can actually report and order modules. We also maintain a mesage board to communicate things like vacations, explaination of absences, and to just BS about the game. The major question comes down to this: How do we decide who gets to play in the 7-10 mods? First come, first in? We could end up with a table with 4 strikers. Plus two of the people work in the place we play at. They would always be 'first'. Draw lots? You could end up with a table of 4 strikers. Of the 13, only 1 of them has 2 8th level characters (the manager of the store). Make the two women not play? Nobody really wants that. Even if they voluntarily sit, they don't advance, and they get even farther behind the rest of us. Leave it in the hands of the DMs for that week? This seems the most prevelant course, but they need to know who to prepare for. If all three prep a 7-10 mod. They may not have enough people to seat it. If all 3 prep a 1-4 mod, then they may waste valuable time while a player has to make a character, since he only brought his 8th level whatever. Nobody want to upset anyone, and no one wants to be hard case either. I await your wisdom....
#2 telvin3d Apr 28, 2009 12:33:23	Lots of new options have come out in the last few months. Ask around and I'd be shocked if you can't find a table worth of people looking to give new classes and races a shot. Also, it sounds like the majority of your players have played one or two characters exclusively. That plus spellguard plus the new 1-4's that are coming out means that there are likely lots of 1-4 mods they have never seen.
#3 kenobi65 Apr 28, 2009 12:44:13	I'd also suggest working with your group of players with the higher-level PCs, to rotate who's playing their high-level PCs at a given session, versus who's playing a low-level PC (or DMing) at a given session, so you don't get too much of a problem with the group of higher-level PCs getting too out of sync with one another.
#4 wizzzzzard Apr 28, 2009 14:28:57	Lots of new options have come out in the last few months. Ask around and I'd be shocked if you can't find a table worth of people looking to give new classes and races a shot. Also, it sounds like the majority of your players have played one or two characters exclusively. That plus spellguard plus the new 1-4's that are coming out means that there are likely lots of 1-4 mods they have never seen. And we've been doing that these last few weeks since PHB2 came out. In fact, several of them are prepping to run characters in a 2nd go round of Spellgard using the new classes. Group 1 however, is just finishing Spellgard this week, after starting it back in December. Real Life forced us to take this long with it. I've had a Dwarf Cleric 'trapped' in spellgard for months. Weeks I did not, or could not play in SG, I usually was DM. The guy running SG needs a break from it, and SG group 2 begins in June. Most of our group only plays one night a week. I am among that majority. The two women however are some of those few that can play sometimes twice a week, so they can 'catch up'. But it will still be several weeks before that happens, and in the meantime we have to decide how to handle it. I'd also suggest working with your group of players with the higher-level PCs, to rotate who's playing their high-level PCs at a given session, versus who's playing a low-level PC (or DMing) at a given session, so you don't get too much of a problem with the group of higher-level PCs getting too out of sync with one another. As I said above, we've more or less been doing this already. Let me take an example, we'll call him Ed. Ed is a great guy. Good player, shows up on time, cleans up after himself. Calls if he can't make it, which is rare. He drives a truck for a living, and is usually hauling ammunition for various police barracks and state national guard depots. He plays D&D one night a week, with our group. His character, a Halfling Cleric of Tymora, is the farthest ahead, as he has not DM'd once since we began LFR in September 2008. He has, for the last 8 weeks, been developing his character for the SG2 group, a 2nd level Elf Rogue. If he uses this PC once more, it will make 3rd level, and can not play in Spellgard. So, he started on a 3rd character, a Half-Orc Swordmage. Now, to say Ed's getting a little anxious to play his cleric again is a bit of an understatement. Our group has got 9 people like Ed. Some have taken a turn or two at DM'ing, but are ready to rumble with thier heavy duty PC's. We pointed out to Ed, that he was so far ahead, because he had not DM'd and he apologized (which we did not feel was necessary) for not taking his turn. During the next rotation, he has taken a couple of slots. We can't sit 3 tables of 8th-level characters. We can sit 2 (of 6), with one person on the outside. This still leaves the women in the lurch. A players suggestion was to seat two tables of 4 of the 8th-levels. and two people who are not the DM for the week, draw dice out of a hat, and who ever draws the odd die, gets to sit at the low table. These people would then be exempt from the next week's draw. Kinda cheesy but seems fair.
#5 Reylance Apr 28, 2009 15:07:07	Certainly, you can run multiple modules. If the 13 people who have high level characters also have mid level characters, you could run 1 low level module, 1 mid level module, and 1 high level module each game day. If not, then run 2 low level modules and 1 high level modules, until everyone has a character who can play 4-7. Run each high level module in two consecutive sessions, and most people (12 of 13, if everyone attends) will get a chance to play them with their high level character.
#6 bgibbons Apr 28, 2009 15:40:31	Of the remaining two: one will have a 6th level character, the other will have a 3rd level character. [...] How do we decide who gets to play in the 7-10 mods? [...] Make the two women not play? Nobody really wants that. Even if they voluntarily sit, they don't advance, and they get even farther behind the rest of us. I think you might have missed that the two players with low-level characters can't legally play a L7-10 module, whether they want to or not. Only PCs between 7th and 10th level can play a L7-10 module. But, sure, a basic problem is how you deal with situations where you have more players than DMs or who gets to play something first, particularly if your group is prone to the geek social fallacies. There are those who like egalitarian systems, where things are randomly distributed or scrupulously fair and balanced. If you're that type (or your group is conflict-averse), you can go with some sort of random draw, though I don't think that's a good idea in the long run. I tend to lean more towards keeping the contributors of the group happy. The people who give more than they take get first shot; those who don't contribute (or do so begrudgingly) get what's left over. Taking care of your DMs ensures that you have DMs.
#7 Fundin_Strongarm Apr 28, 2009 16:30:37	Is there a way to run two 7-10 tables and one 1-4 table? If not, run one 7-10 table this week with players 1 through 6 -- and then next week run one 7-10 table with players 7 through 12. Rotate the players around so they each get a chance to play their level 7+ characters.
#8 kenobi65 Apr 28, 2009 16:54:04	Is there a way to run two 7-10 tables and one 1-4 table? If not, run one 7-10 table this week with players 1 through 6 -- and then next week run one 7-10 table with players 7 through 12. Rotate the players around so they each get a chance to play their level 7+ characters. YMMV, of course, but I tend to think a structured schedule for when your players will be playng their higher-level PCs is a better idea than drawing straws. It'll be more likely to be seen as fair, and your players will know ahead of time what they can expect.
#9 matteblack Apr 28, 2009 18:27:13	I definitely think it is time to pump the brakes a bit and let the others catch up a bit. Limiting the group to one table (preferrably the smallest) in the 7-10 range and rotating the top tier characters a few weeks should help those last few catch up. Especially with all the new resources and 1-4 mods, it's a good time to get some secondaries levelling. As long as they are devoted players, catching those last two up to the rest should be priority one. I'd suggest some of the middle tier mods that offer bonus quest xp to speed up the process as well as looking into scheduling an extra session or two if possible. Can you squeeze two of the faster-running mods in with one of your faster DMs and a four person table?
#10 wizzzzzard Apr 29, 2009 9:37:58	Certainly, you can run multiple modules. If the 13 people who have high level characters also have mid level characters, you could run 1 low level module, 1 mid level module, and 1 high level module each game day. If not, then run 2 low level modules and 1 high level modules, until everyone has a character who can play 4-7. Run each high level module in two consecutive sessions, and most people (12 of 13, if everyone attends) will get a chance to play them with their high level character. This sounds like a viable option. Some of us have have mid-level characters, but not all. I will present it to our group. I think you might have missed that the two players with low-level characters can't legally play a L7-10 module, whether they want to or not. Only PCs between 7th and 10th level can play a L7-10 module. I might have been a touch unclear. We know the women can't play in the 7-10 mods. So our decision is who has to "play down" in the lower level mods and who gets to play in the high level mods. They understand this, and feel bad that they have to make somenoe with a high level character skip a mod because they came along to our group only a month ago. But, sure, a basic problem is how you deal with situations where you have more players than DMs or who gets to play something first, particularly if your group is prone to the geek social fallacies. There are those who like egalitarian systems, where things are randomly distributed or scrupulously fair and balanced. If you're that type (or your group is conflict-averse), you can go with some sort of random draw, though I don't think that's a good idea in the long run. I do as well, which is why we really haven't done it yet. My wife suggested that we do this, and as each person plays the lower level mods, they are safe until everyone has played down at least once. Then when everyone has done so at least once, we start the process over again. I tend to lean more towards keeping the contributors of the group happy. The people who give more than they take get first shot; those who don't contribute (or do so begrudgingly) get what's left over. Taking care of your DMs ensures that you have DMs. And this is something the group is all aware of. Those that do not DM, know they don't for specific reasons (mainly, they suck at it). They do not have problems with giving those that do DM a little advantage from time to time. What they don't want it to turn into, is that they are always disadvanataged becuase their DM skills aren't up to rest of us. Is there a way to run two 7-10 tables and one 1-4 table? If not, run one 7-10 table this week with players 1 through 6 -- and then next week run one 7-10 table with players 7 through 12. Rotate the players around so they each get a chance to play their level 7+ characters. This is similar to the first suggestion. We still need a way to decide who players 1-6 are and who are 7-12. We might just be able to get volunteers. I definitely think it is time to pump the brakes a bit and let the others catch up a bit. Limiting the group to one table (preferrably the smallest) in the 7-10 range and rotating the top tier characters a few weeks should help those last few catch up. Especially with all the new resources and 1-4 mods, it's a good time to get some secondaries levelling. As long as they are devoted players, catching those last two up to the rest should be priority one. I'd suggest some of the middle tier mods that offer bonus quest xp to speed up the process as well as looking into scheduling an extra session or two if possible. Can you squeeze two of the faster-running mods in with one of your faster DMs and a four person table? Here's the thing. We've been letting others catch up. (And becuase I DM a lot, I'm one of the one who needed catching up.) The women are new arrivals to our group. F, played the occassional Saturday, and came with Dad on the sometime Friday sessions. Only in the last month, has she become a regular. A is new to D&D, and we don't want to push her away. We are running the new EAST 1-4 this week, so it's a new mod for everyone who plays at it. We might just get a few volunteers to sit at the low table. I'll have to check into the quest xp rewards to see if there's anything we can try there. Thanks for that. Speed wise, I'm afraid many of our DM's are bit on the slow side. I'm generally the fastest DM in our group. Our official start time is 8pm, but we often don't get started until 8;30 or 8:45. I might be a touch draconian in my tactics to get folks to focus on the board, but I get the job done. An infiormal poll conducted by the store manager we play at, discovered I am the most popular LFR DM of our collective. One: for my speed. I will end encounters if they look like the party is winning. (They usually get prisoners this way.) If the tactics say the critters fight to the death, then I roll randomly and the give the choice to a player to kill it or spare it. #2: My attitude is not adversarial to the party. I'm not there to kill the characters, I'm there to make sure the players have a good time. Since we play in a public location, we have time, but not that much time. The manager usually likes to leave by 1 am, so getting the mods done on time, is fairly important to him. As fast as I am, I can't get a 2 mods done in 5 hours. Not without really slashing things. It's a good idea. Just not one I think we can implement. Please keep ideas coming.
#11 Fundin_Strongarm Apr 29, 2009 15:36:50	I think getting volunteers to be players 1 to 6 and players 7 to 12 and then rotating them would be easy. I'm sure people could cooperate to make the parties balanced. It may even work better to have 3 groups that rotate, depending on your numbers and character role makeup.
#12 Uthrac Apr 30, 2009 7:07:28	Also, remind your 7th-10th tier players that there are no Paragon adventures out yet. There's no rush.
#13 wizzzzzard Apr 30, 2009 8:19:53	Also, remind your 7th-10th tier players that there are no Paragon adventures out yet. There's no rush. That might actually motivate them. The way I look at the math is thusly: At 8th level, we should play three 7-10 mods at 'low-tier', and then be 9th level. Then 3 more at 'high-tier' should take us to 10th. 3 or 4 more after that, and blam, 11th. You're capped. 10 sessions. If the first is done on May 8th, then you'd be finished by July 10.
#14 wizzzzzard Apr 30, 2009 10:45:11	I think getting volunteers to be players 1 to 6 and players 7 to 12 and then rotating them would be easy. I'm sure people could cooperate to make the parties balanced. It may even work better to have 3 groups that rotate, depending on your numbers and character role makeup. Sorry. I missed your reply earlier. The more I look at this, the more it seems like the best solution is to play 1 7-10 mod rotating the 13 people into it. We play the same one for 2 weeks, and get as many people into it as we can. The other tables are either 1-4 or 4-7 at the discretion of the DM in charge. Most of of us have 1-4 characters, and a few of us have 4-7 characters. So I think we'll leave it up to the DM running the other tables, with the only "rule" being that we can't run 2 4-7 tables until the woman "A" manages to get her Rogue to 4th. As far as balanced parties go, that might be possible. Of the 13 high level characters we have 2 controllers: 1 fire based tiefling orbizard, and 1 cold based human staffizard 4 strikers: 3 rogues (1 drow AD, 1 halfling BS, and 1 human BS), 1 human two-weapon ranger 3 defenders: 2 dwarf battlerager fighters, 1 dwarf chaladin 4 leaders: 2 warlords (1 dragonborn chalord, 1 genasi taclord), 2 clerics (1 elf laser Aumantor, and 1 halfling laser Tymora) We can make some good parties with this assortment.
#15 ughman Jun 19, 2009 3:23:55	Your predicaments seem similar to my group. (Which is more like 2 or 3 groups that intermix). My thought: too big of a group means you don't have enough. Seriously, though: 1. Adding more people to your group 2. Adding more days to potential times your group can play (if its over a dozen people, I bet you can get a table running on a different day than your main one) can open up new options, or potentially give the lower level people the option to play more often to catch up 3. Play with other groups The larger the LFR group, the less level brackets are an issue. As your group size approaches infinity, you'll realize that the RPGA is in control of the world. Other thoughts: rotate spots if you have to, don't randomly select stuff. People like to look forward to D&D, and messing with the sense of anticipation people have is unwise.
#16 tetsujinoni Jun 22, 2009 17:29:01	The more I look at this, the more it seems like the best solution is to play 1 7-10 mod rotating the 13 people into it. We play the same one for 2 weeks, and get as many people into it as we can. The other tables are either 1-4 or 4-7 at the discretion of the DM in charge. Most of of us have 1-4 characters, and a few of us have 4-7 characters. So I think we'll leave it up to the DM running the other tables, with the only "rule" being that we can't run 2 4-7 tables until the woman "A" manages to get her Rogue to 4th. As far as balanced parties go, that might be possible. Of the 13 high level characters we have 2 controllers: 1 fire based tiefling orbizard, and 1 cold based human staffizard 4 strikers: 3 rogues (1 drow AD, 1 halfling BS, and 1 human BS), 1 human two-weapon ranger 3 defenders: 2 dwarf battlerager fighters, 1 dwarf chaladin 4 leaders: 2 warlords (1 dragonborn chalord, 1 genasi taclord), 2 clerics (1 elf laser Aumantor, and 1 halfling laser Tymora) We can make some good parties with this assortment. If you run 7-10 tables on a 3 week cycle, with tables of (4,4,5), Nobody gets excluded. You'll probably need to do this only 2 or 3 cycles to get everyone in at least 4-7 content. This leaves a 6 and a 5 table in your 1-4/4-7 bands. I wouldn't worry too much about the 1-4 band having insufficient population, as with 8-9 people excluded from the high table each week, you can expect people to fool with more concepts. 4 man tables present many more interesting chances to die for people who think LFR is too easy.... for what that's worth ;) I would strongly recommend using a tool like Warhorn to plan your adventure rotation since you're going to have such a strong recurrance theme. Alternatively, you could rotate three mods through three weeks, three times. (ABC BCA CAB) if you have one judge who likes running the tier / runs it fast / etc...
#17 wizzzzzard Jul 10, 2009 8:51:35	Thanks for the ideas guys. We did end up adding a few more people. We are now 19 strong when we are all there. Most people have at least 3 characters, one in each level-tier, and usually in at least 2 of the 4 roles. Due to summer vacations, I've had to, & will need to, DM still quite a bit during June & July, but I'm off (from being DM) nearly the entire month of August. Take a bow if any of you are here: Howard, Dave, Ed, Jack, Bob, Rob, Ben, Ian, Derek, Bill, Paul, Rachel, Larry, Flora, Chris, Andrea, Bruce, & John. (And me!)
#18 sehmerus Jul 16, 2009 15:40:39	We have a simular situation occur in my retail store that i run rpga events, we on average have 2 tables but on occasion will have enouph "walk-ins" to fill a 3rd or sometimes 4th table. here is how we do it. schedule rotating DM's each game day we have 4 DM's ready to go with the mods.. 1-primary DM this is the Dm that orders the mods and makes sure the rest of the Dms get the mods for that session, He also will run 1-4 mods (we ALWAYS run a 1-4 mod for 1 table mostly incase of walk-ins) 2- the secondary DM will have a copy of the 1-4 mod and 4-7 mod. he will (IF table 1 is full) run the second table, when the table is seated he will take a vote (simular to high/low) to see if the group can and want to play 4-7 if not the table goes to 1-4. 3- the third DM will have a 1-4 and a 7-10 mod ready and will also take a vote on wether to play 7-10 or 1-4. the 4th DM is strictly walk-in DM andworks with walk in people with creating characters and going over rpga/lfr rules ect. they will have a 1-4 mod used to get the new players going. we have a sign up for each of our tables in our yahoo groups database. basically its first come first serve. its not the responsability of the Dm to make sure players play a balanced party, after a few woopins we started to finally get people playing there second and third characters wich helps keep every table remain active.