Any thoughts as to a replacement armor?
List of Replacements
General
Armor of Durability (Adventurer's Vault)
Battle Harness (Dragon Magazine)
Armor of Durability (Adventurer's Vault)
Battle Harness (Dragon Magazine)
Beastial Armor (AV, 3+) might be good for you too (since Barbarians charge).
Armor of Durability (AV, 4+) is also a good one. I love things that increase the surge value.
Seriously, the property on that thing is still pretty darn good.
How about .... Veteran's Armor.
Seriously, the property on that thing is still pretty darn good.
No, no it isnt, the property isnt worth 100 gold. Save for a +2 basic armor if you need a new armor, it is the next best.
If not, then it might not be your top choice to buy it, but it is far from the worthlessness that Undone claims. Barbarians lack a Prime Shot or weapon talent type feature, and favor +2 proficiency weapons, so they arguably need the attack bonus more than many classes.
No, no it isnt, the property isnt worth 100 gold. Save for a +2 basic armor if you need a new armor, it is the next best.
Yes, yes it is
Bestial looks really nice though.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/updates
-SYB
Seriously, I wouldn't pay too close attention to Undone's posts. From having read many of them, he seems to be a major power gamer. According to most of his posts, if an item/power/PP/etc. isn't broken, it is absolutely worthless.
-SYB
I had already figured that out but just didnt want to call them to the floor on it. But it takes all kinds in this game
Seriously, I wouldn't pay too close attention to Undone's posts. From having read many of them, he seems to be a major power gamer. According to most of his posts, if an item/power/PP/etc. isn't broken, it is absolutely worthless.
-SYB
I wouldnt cassify myself as major power gamer but yes I power game somewhat. It is worse because it is staticaly inferior to a large numer of other items and costs you vauleable GP which could go to a + 2 weapon or armor, or neck slot item.
Purchasing a +1 item is strictly worse than saving the money for items which are good forever or for an extended period of time (see iron bands of strenght and the +1 AC foot ware on a shift) Any item not good forever that isnt a level set up( Ie 1-5, 6-10 exct) Needs an ability that is good forever, and as this ablity isnt worth the +1 level (especialy as gold scales and this costs significantly more)
Simply put there is now no reason to buy this or find one that is less than a +2 when you are between 1 and 4.
You call it powergaming (which isnt really a bad thing I think) I call it statisictaly optimal, and dont say thats power gaming because you do the same thing to a slightly lesser degree when you build a character (Ie an 18 in your primary and so on)
Purchasing a +1 item is strictly worse than saving the money for items which are good forever or for an extended period of time.
No. That's true as long as your inaction doesn't cause a character to die(especially yours). As soon as that happens, having that +1 item would have been better than saving the money.
I read in one of the blurbs about the Primal power source that it includes ancestor worship, so Veteran's Armor would be my Barbarian's ancestors speaking to him.
You call it powergaming (which isnt really a bad thing I think) I call it statisictaly optimal, and dont say thats power gaming because you do the same thing to a slightly lesser degree when you build a character (Ie an 18 in your primary and so on)
Really? I should introduce you to my Tiefling Fighter. He has a 14 in five stats (and a 10 in the last). Yes, he is a concept character, but he is a lot of fun to play. I was thinking about taking Shield Adept as his PP, despite the fact that Kensei would be statistically optimal, because I like the flavor. I know HOW to power game, I just actively avoid doing it most of the time.
More importantly, I don't trivialize or denigrate build options that someone might be interested in just because they don't fit a specific power curve. To do so would be unfortunate and damaging to the community.
-SYB
Really? I should introduce you to my Tiefling Fighter. He has a 14 in five stats (and a 10 in the last).
... snip...
More importantly, I don't trivialize or denigrate build options that someone might be interested in just because they don't fit a specific power curve. To do so would be unfortunate and damaging to the community.
Then you should talk to MwaO, since he apparently has a problem with you:
No. That's true as long as your inaction doesn't cause a character to die(especially yours). As soon as that happens, having that +1 item would have been better than saving the money.
It seems it's "damned if you optimize, damned if you don't" on these forums sometimes... either way someone is calling you on it.
It seems it's "damned if you optimize, damned if you don't" on these forums sometimes... either way someone is calling you on it.
As long as SYB's character pulls his weight in MwaO's party, I don't think there's going to be an issue
EDIT: Also, can we try to get back to the topic? Replacement armors for those of us who bought/picked Veteran's Armors. Not necessarily limited to Barbarians, either.
Honestly, it depends on class.
Old way to present armor:
Best armor by class
Warlock: Veteran's Armor
Wizard: Veteran's Armor
Fighter: Veteran's Armor
Barbarian: 4 sets of Veteran's Armor
etc etc.
Now, it requires some thinking... Some classes might even require looking at the build now!
Gonna have to do some research for my own wiz.
EDIT: Also, can we try to get back to the topic? Replacement armors for those of us who bought/picked Veteran's Armors. Not necessarily limited to Barbarians, either.
Ah, grasshopper... you can have your thread back when you can take it from the hand of the thread ninja...
Best armor by class
Warlock: Veteran's Armor
Wizard: Veteran's Armor
Fighter: Veteran's Armor
Barbarian: 4 sets of Veteran's Armor
No, no, no, and double no (While it might be useful on some of the other classes, i think it's less useful on a Barbarian... I would never have taken it for my barbarian).
Honestly, I don't know why people thought it was that great. Useful, yes. But not to the point of buying multiple sets and getting it on every character.
-SYB
As for alternate armors, I wouldn't bother. Just wait for a +2 armor. Imo it is best to upgrade armor and weapons to a higher plus whenever possible (though I do prefer it to have a property besides a plus). But I play a defender, so every extra plus counts.
Gomez
What I think caused the nerf was that people were buying six sets of +1 VA and getting all their dailies for every fight. It was ridiculous cheese, but RAW allowed. Rather than simply put in a straightforward ruling to stop that cheese (e.g. you can only benefit from a daily power once a day no matter how many of the same item you have), they whacked it.
Anyway - to the OP: for a barbarian bestial armor is quite fun, as it gives you a bonus on charging. It's leather or hide only, though (although I suspect with the PHBII barbarians will get more incentives to wear light armor). Versatile armor is also potentially quite useful if you want to wear heavy, as it can increase your mobility (and hence charge range).
But i have to say the Bestial seems to be good for a Barbarian.
(e.g. you can only benefit from a daily power once a day no matter how many of the same item you have), they whacked it.
There is a RAW on this. Going by memory so might get this wrong.
Heroic Tier: You can only use a item daily power once per day or till you pass a milestone. If you pass a milestone you can then use 2x daily powers.
So in most LFG mods, if you have a multitude of Veteran's Armor, you could only recharge that Daily power twice, at most.
I'm also in the camp that still thinks Veteran's Armor is nice. I usually get at least 2 encounters use (3 attacks per encounter) of the Veteran's property of +1 to all in a LFG mod where people with other Armor with a Daily power only get to use it once.
ie. I get the benifit from Veteran's Armor 6 times vs. the 1 time someone gets to use the daily power from another armor.
So it all depends on how you look at it.
The more relevant answer: it depends upon your character, your strategies, your options among found items, and your other items.
For instance, black iron armor is a nice armor. Resist to two common damage types is good. On the other hand, if you got yourself a +2 cloak of survival (another very nice resists item), black iron armor loses its attractiveness. Why take black iron armor when half of your resistances are duplicated by your other items. You are better off taking different armor (perhaps armor of resistance) or a different cloak.
On the other hand, if you are sixth level and you don't have not yet come across a neck slot item, you may be in a position where any +2 neck slot item will do.
In LFR, even if you read all of the spoilers and plan out the modules you play and the items you choose in advance, you will not usually have the option to get exactly the items you want. To some degree, you have to make do with what you find and move on. If you use found items for the big three, you should always be playing with bonuses at or above your tier of play. If you wait until you have enough gold to buy exactly what you want, you will probably be behind the assumed bonus at your tier of play. Few items powers or properties are so good as to be worth that +1.5 or so power swing.
There is a RAW on this. Going by memory so might get this wrong.
Heroic Tier: You can only use a item daily power once per day or till you pass a milestone. If you pass a milestone you can then use 2x daily powers.
So in most LFG mods, if you have a multitude of Veteran's Armor, you could only recharge that Daily power twice, at most.
Thing is, in most LFR mods, there are only three fights. That's a daily every fight.
I don't think it was nerfed with LFR in mind at all. I think it was more that certain builds at paragon and epic are capable of generating lots of action points, and that combined with the multiple daily powers meant that players were 'spamming' their best daily every single fight.
just to give everyone an update, found in the other "what if my weapon gets errata'ed thread" they announced that with the errata anyone who had veterans armor may swap it out for a magic item of equal or lesser level.
This isn't official, however, until there's a news post on the RPGA front page.
But, there's no reason you can't start window shopping now.
This isn't official, however, until there's a news post on the RPGA front page.
Well it is posted on the front page, but it only addresses the issue for those who found it in a mod. The other 75% of us who actually paid for the armor are still waiting.
Magic item slots being much more valuable, as you know.
No I don't know. To me an items value is its value as based on its level and GP cost. Slots can often be used for more expensive items, but in this case the trade is for same level or lower and thus one can not obtain any more value than they already expended to obtain the item. Whether purchased cash or purchased with an item slot any character with veteran's armor is out the same amount of gold. In my case I used cash to purchase the armor now need to obtain a new set either with cash or with a slot, the same as would go for anyone who used a slot to get the armor if they were not allowed to trade it in.
Besides, if it was bought it is almost guaranteed to be +1 armor. As such, it is due to be replaced for 99% of character in fairly short order.
Unless you were planning to pay gold to upgrade the "plus", which you may or may not still want to do.
It's not like you were going to keep it forever anyways.
Actually I had every intention of keeping mine, items are upgradeable after all. I am now, however, not planning on keeping it, and will probably now use a found item slot on armor, something of which I had never intended to do, and thus my plight is the same as anyone who had used a slot to get the armor, with the exception that they can trade theirs out.
Well it is posted on the front page, but it only addresses the issue for those who found it in a mod. The other 75% of us who actually paid for the armor are still waiting.
Since you paid for the armor, presumably under a DM's supervision...couldn't you work it out with him/her? After all other than your paperwork there aren't official records kept for purchased magic items.
Since you paid for the armor, presumably under a DM's supervision...couldn't you work it out with him/her? After all other than your paperwork there aren't official records kept for purchased magic items.
Your last sentence is basically: "You know, you could always cheat. You aren't likely to get caught."
If you are really willing to cheat over 540gp worth of equipment (a drop in the bucket), you shouldn't be playing this game.
-SYB
Since you paid for the armor, presumably under a DM's supervision...couldn't you work it out with him/her? After all other than your paperwork there aren't official records kept for purchased magic items.
Your adventure log is just as official as your online character records and is far more likely to be looked at by a GM. All my purchases end up on my adventure log.
I thought the matter was going to be resolved when the news came out. I am honestly surprised it only covers armor obtained with an item slot since I don't actually know any characters who obtained it that way, but I know plenty who purchased a set.
I am also a bit surprised that people are defending the distinction between the two methods of obtaining it. While losing 80% of the cash I had spent on a level 2 item doesn't seem like that big of a deal had I played a couple more mods with that character I would have hit 7 and would be out some serious cash at this point.
~400 GP is pretty easy to get back once you start playing 4-7 mods. Probably a lot easier once you play 7-10s.
The distinction is that when I picked Veteran's Armor as a reward, I had the choice of only 3 or 4 items (one item is usually something my character can't use) and if they nerf it without compensation of some kind, I'm SOL on the Found Magic Item slot. When you buy Veteran's Armor, you got to pick from any number of magical items (of which, at the time Veteran's Armor was the overwhelming no-brainer, but choices did exist),
You can eventually purchase any one of those other items that dropped as well. Is there any difference between someone who takes veteran's armor and then buys a magic weapon and someone who takes a magic weapon and then buys veteran's armor? In such a case both characters are out a found item slot and both characters are out the same value worth of gear, which is the value of their veteran's armor.
and you can still sell it for 20% of its value (108 GP - about 1 level 1-4 mod's worth of GP without the Extra Gold option).
Its not about the small value lost in a level 2 item, its about treating the two cases, found and purchased, the same whether in either case you are dealing with level 2 or level 7 items. What is the breaking point? Should characters who purchased level 7 veteran's armor be able to trade theirs in because they are out more?
For those of us that paid for it (sometimes after a long internal debate over it and Dwarven) we are just at a loss of cash with no compensation. I now have lost 432 gold since I need to replace it with a new item instead of upgrading it when I hit 7th like I planed.
For those that think the ruling is ok for only being those that found it in a mod, keep in mind that those people are now getting an unfair advantage over everyone else. For those that have the +2 one, they now have the ability to trade that for any item level 7 and lower, including items that have never appeared in mods and for the many players under level 7 that have it, get an item they can not buy.
For those of us that paid for it (sometimes after a long internal debate over it and Dwarven) we are just at a loss of cash with no compensation. I now have lost 432 gold since I need to replace it with a new item instead of upgrading it when I hit 7th like I planed.
Seriously? Who cares? And, I don't mean that in the why should I care about your woes way. I mean that in the why do you care about 432 gold way. Making basic (very basic) assumptions, on magic item slots alone you will have well over 5 million gold worth of items by 30th level. Earned gold should be roughly 13,000 gold by level 10, and roughly 300,000 gold by level 20. So, in other words, you will have lost about 2% of your total worth by level 10 and about 0.08% of your total worth by level 20.
Understandably, it is probably about 10-20% of your total worth now. But, I am certain that your character isn't unplayable due to that missing treasure value and within adventures that are already published, the missing value will be imperceptible.
-SYB
For those of us that paid for it (sometimes after a long internal debate over it and Dwarven) we are just at a loss of cash with no compensation. I now have lost 432 gold since I need to replace it with a new item instead of upgrading it when I hit 7th like I planed.
Because it's completely unusable now and doesn't function as well as even a Magic+1 armor, right? That's why there is no way your character can hold on to it for another few levels, right?
It's a shame that they removed the effect of Veteran's Armor's enhancement bonus as well, isn't it?
...
I traded the Cleric's for a Belt of Sacrifice.
I traded the Barbarians for a Cloak of Eyes.
I decided to keep the Wizards since he mainly does bursts and blasts, and after spending an action point can often make upwards of a dozen attack rolls by the end of his next turn. Plus bursts often require him to move into the center of combat and the +1 to defenses helps durring that one round he gets beat on before he can teleport away.
Because it's completely unusable now and doesn't function as well as even a Magic+1 armor, right? That's why there is no way your character can hold on to it for another few levels, right?
As I said, it is because I have to replace it now. I am now needing to buy Dwarven armor or use sub par armor for my character. I never said nor implied the armor wasnt still +1 chainmail, but as a fighter Dwarven is now far far better armor and I have to either use an item slot to get it or buy it, and thus the armor I already paid for is now a waste of money due to a change in the rules that I am not being compensated for while others are. Why should people that used an item slot be able to trade while those of us that paid for it can not?
As I said, it is because I have to replace it now. I am now needing to buy Dwarven armor or use sub par armor for my character. I never said nor implied the armor wasnt still +1 chainmail, but as a fighter Dwarven is now far far better armor and I have to either use an item slot to get it or buy it, and thus the armor I already paid for is now a waste of money due to a change in the rules that I am not being compensated for while others are. Why should people that used an item slot be able to trade while those of us that paid for it can not?
So it's not fair.
How is it sub-par? The most important thing about ANY armor is its overall AC (and other defenses when applicable) bonus. Veteran's Armor still has one nifty Ability. And the Ability IS worth the lvl 2 MI Gold. The other ability was worth closer to lvl 4/5 gold Cost, so you saved a good 2-3 levels of exponental gold when you bought it.
Dwarven Armor may be better, but, do you NEED to change into an equivalent AC armor RIGHT NAO? No. You want to, but you don't want to have to pay to do it.
Or would it be more prudent, money-Wise, to wait until you can afford/find a suit of +2 Dwarven armor? Yes. By a lot.
So it's not fair.
How is it sub-par? The most important thing about ANY armor is its overall AC (and other defenses when applicable) bonus. Veteran's Armor still has one nifty Ability. And the Ability IS worth the lvl 2 MI Gold. The other ability was worth closer to lvl 4/5 gold Cost, so you saved a good 2-3 levels of exponental gold when you bought it.
Dwarven Armor may be better, but, do you NEED to change into an equivalent AC armor RIGHT NAO? No. You want to, but you don't want to have to pay to do it.
Or would it be more prudent, money-Wise, to wait until you can afford/find a suit of +2 Dwarven armor? Yes. By a lot.
The same can be said for anyone that took it as a found item, so why are they being given an option the rest of us are not?
The same can be said for anyone that took it as a found item, so why are they being given an option the rest of us are not?
I don't know. A +1 to attacks and defenses for a round when you spend an action point seems well worth 520g to me.
I just bought myself magic armor on saturday, during SPEC1-1. I would have taken +1 Vets, but I didn't have the money for anything over base magic.
And, having jst bought the armor, I didn't spend a found slot on new armor(+2 vets was avaliable. but it's ubiquitous, so I'll grab some later), as I needed to shore up my NADs first.
It doesnt matter that much to me any more because I droped my character (wizard) that had the vet armor's due to several ruleings in a row that nerf them and an apperant affinity WotC have for fighters (see polearm momentem/gamble/HBO, See tempest, see battle rager) But it annoies me that WotC is very inconsistent with thier errata problems.
One thing that can fix this is very simply is state "If an item is changed in any way you can either 1) Revert that item to the original + and lose the property gaining the differance in GP (Like 160 for vet armor) or regain the found item slot.
The +1 to hit and defences isnt worth the + 160 GP by any means.
Why not? It seems solid to me. And it's not like that would be a balanced ability to put out at the same price as basic magic armor.
(Note that this is for a lvl 2 +1 vets, and not a higher level veteran's armor.)
And if people were buying multiple sets of Veterans armor?
Then most of these proposed solutions would seem a little unbalanced, IMO.
Why not? It seems solid to me. And it's not like that would be a balanced ability to put out at the same price as basic magic armor.
(Note that this is for a lvl 2 +1 vets, and not a higher level veteran's armor.)
And if people were buying multiple sets of Veterans armor?
Then most of these proposed solutions would seem a little unbalanced, IMO.
How is it unbalanced to give a person the 520 GP they wouldnt have spent on an item in the first place?
How is it unbalanced to give a person the 520 GP they wouldnt have spent on an item in the first place?
I'm not a game designer. I don't pretend that my opinion is, in fact, correct. I merely offered it.
Our appologies for being a bit late.
Pieter Sleijpen
RPGA LFR Global Administrator
Official announcement (will be updated on the web site): The ruling for exchanging veteran's amor applies to bought armor as well. Remember: bought before the date set in the article!
Our appologies for being a bit late.
Pieter Sleijpen
RPGA LFR Global Administrator
Thanks, Pieter!
Official announcement (will be updated on the web site): The ruling for exchanging veteran's amor applies to bought armor as well. Remember: bought before the date set in the article!
Our appologies for being a bit late.
Pieter Sleijpen
RPGA LFR Global Administrator
No problem. The delay in announcement allowed us to see who the munchkins were.
-SYB
No problem. The delay in announcement allowed us to see who the munchkins were.
-SYB
Yes. Yes it did.
Now to go find the Tin Men.
Yes. Yes it did.
Now to go find the Tin Men.
And more importantly the cowardly lion.
And more importantly the cowardly lion.
And ONLY then, will I be able to put up with the mindless Scarecrow.