Str - 18
Dex - 13
Con - 16
Int - 8
Wis - 14
Cha - 10
The idea is by level 11 to be using a glaive. The two at-wills should be pressing strike and recuperating strike. With Reparation Apparatus gloves, recuperating strike gives you an at-will power that with every hit can potentially give you a crapload of temp hps (+2D6 on top of the normal temps you gain). Pressing strike will be necessary for a potentially devastating combo.
By level 12 (taking a feat at both level 11 and 12, AND retraining a couple of placeholder feats) the PC should have Polearm Gamble, Heavy Blade Opportunity, Polearm Momentum, and Uncanny Dodge. Ideally he should also have two multiclass figher feats, one that allows him to paragon path and lets him use a mark once an encounter, and also the new one that grants him the combat superiority class feature. Additionally, you would either need to PP into Polearm Expert or use a controlling weapon (I recommend the former).
With polearm gamble he will be able to get an opportunity attack against EVERY foe that comes adjacent to him. HBO lets him attack with pressing strike as an at-will for the OA. The controlling weapon or PP class feature allows you to push the enemy an extra square. Polearm momentum makes it so the enemy has to fall prone at the end of the push. Technically, it's theoretically possible that all melee attackers without reach would not get to attack you the entire combat since they had to move to get to you, move again to stand up, and then move back to attack you (I suppose if they had action points or wanted to attack you while prone, they could try). Of course you would have to not miss for this to happen...
However, if you happened to miss on the OA (even though your to hit should be pretty high, especially if you took the multiclass feat that gives you combat superiority), Uncanny Dodge will make it so the enemies don't get that +2 to hit you. Plus you can always later take Blade Opportunist, Combat Reflexes, or Warforged Tactics to improve your to hits on the OAs (they all stack).
You bump Str always, Dex at Heroic Tier, and whatever you want at Paragon and Epic. This gives you access to HBO, Polearm Gamble, Polearm Momentum, and Uncanny Dodge at 11th level. The stat bumps at levels 11 and 21 also give you the Dex prereq for Heavy Blade Mastery at epic.
I was thinking personally of going Chain, Scale, Multiclass Fighter Feat, Multiclass Fighter Feat, and then two "placeholder" feats at 8th and 10th which I would retrain at 11th and 12th levels, so I would have full synergy at 12th level. After that I could flavor to taste (i.e. increase damage output, increase to hit on OAs, increase defenses, etc.)
Potentially, I think this could be a really strong build. I would appreciate some feedback and/or suggestions, and/or constructive criticism.
Thanks!
Come on... Battlevigor Rager Fighter! With 20 Strength and a +3 Proficiency weapon! Then you can get Vigor Temp HP that stack with other Temp HP (or other Vigor Temp HP).
If you are picking up Con Modifier + 2D6 temp hp each round, you might as well make it stack! :D
P.S.: Wouldn't you take Blade Opportunist, Combat Reflexes, and Warforged Tactics BEFORE Paragon levels when you start Gambling?
Warforged Tactics should be the first feat for a Warforged if you aren't taking proficiency with a weapon. But I guess a Barbarian really wants the chain armor...
I think PCs can technically only take one multiclass feat, so you might have to choose between Student of the Sword and Battle Awareness.
I think Battle Awareness is better, it technically isn't Combat Challenge (it doesn't require the provoker to be marked!).
But as my friend says "Planning for paragon is like planning for 2011, it is so far away."
But as my friend says "Planning for paragon is like planning for 2011, it is so far away."
Your friend must not play much. Seriously, my Dragonborn Cleric is one mod from 8th and will probably hit paragon tier before PHB2 is out. And that's my third character! :P
Feats can be retrained, of course, but magic item choices can't. If you're starting this character soon, I'd think about sticking with a light-armor build to keep options open when PHB II comes out.
While I'm at it, "Reparation Apparatus gloves" are also play-test. They could be changed to an "encounter power" when the ECS comes out.
I guess the big point to keep in mind is not to build a character that relies heavily on play-test mechanics - just in case those mechanics change when they are officially released!
This fighter isn't a fighter it is a barbarian. I only know because I followed the other thread.
Ok, makes more sense now.
I think PCs can technically only take one multiclass feat, so you might have to choose between Student of the Sword and Battle Awareness.
You are Correct. Battle Awareness is a multiclass feat for fighter the same way Student of the Sword is. You can only take one. Battle Acumen on the other hand can be taken if you have multiclassed to fighter and chosen the route of Paragon Multiclassing. Then you get the full blown Combat Superiority.
You are Correct. Battle Awareness is a multiclass feat for fighter the same way Student of the Sword is. You can only take one. Battle Acumen on the other hand can be taken if you have multiclassed to fighter and chosen the route of Paragon Multiclassing. Then you get the full blown Combat Superiority.
You can only take one class's class-specific multiclass feat. There's nothing preventing you from taking two multiclass feats from the same class.
You can only take one class's class-specific multiclass feat. There's nothing preventing you from taking two multiclass feats from the same class.
That is true. They did say that they were writing Martial Power at the same time they wrote the PHB.
The exact wording is, "Second, once you take a multiclass feat, you can’t take a class-specific feat for a different class."
Good catch Sithobi. However I don't really see anyone taking Student of Battle anymore. Although I guess an Encounter +1 to hit (and a mark *sigh*, but only because I can see it replacing a good mark like Divine Challenge or Swordmage Aegis) is nice.
I hope the Reparation Apparatus gets changed to at least require the temp hp granting power to have the Healing keyword (like the hp regain part). But until... when is it coming out? July for the Player's Guide?
As to how often we play, we play once a week. We are currently level 4 (I think we'll hit 5 either next Monday or the one after that, however where we play there are no immediately listed plans for the 4-7 modules).
I hope the Reparation Apparatus gets changed to at least require the temp hp granting power to have the Healing keyword (like the hp regain part).
I'd actually prefer it be the opposite. Part of what makes it silly right now is the +4d6 hp (2d6 temp, 2d6 healing) it gives on the racial encounter power.
Though, honestly, the fact that it's such a powerful ability on a low level item that works for exactly one race of PCs makes it stupidly unbalanced.
You can only take one class's class-specific multiclass feat. There's nothing preventing you from taking two multiclass feats from the same class.
I dunno... Since you count as that class, to me it seems to fall under rule 1 of multiclassing feats. If you are a Wizard and Fighter (because you took Student of the Sword, for example), then taking another Multiclass feat for Fighter is taking a multiclass feat of your own class.
I dunno... Since you count as that class, to me it seems to fall under rule 1 of multiclassing feats. If you are a Wizard and Fighter (because you took Student of the Sword, for example), then taking another Multiclass feat for Fighter is taking a multiclass feat of your own class.
If that were the case, you have the Dragon Disciple from 3.5. When you take the feat, you become a fighter and thus can't have taken the feat...so you don't have the feat, so you can take the feat, so you have the feat...
It cannot be the case because Battle Acumen specifically requires "any multiclass fighter feat" as a prerequisite and is itself a [Multiclass Fighter] feat.
Unless they are taunting you? Dun dun dun!
It cannot be the case because Battle Acumen specifically requires "any multiclass fighter feat" as a prerequisite and is itself a [Multiclass Fighter] feat.
Exception rule. The prerequisites require you to have taken a multiclass fighter feat to take it. I haven't seen anything that trumps the general rules of multiclass feats. Besides the [Multiclass Fighter] tag is classification. What makes you a multiclass fighter, or wizard, or rogue, etc. is the base multiclass feat.
Now, I could be completely wrong, all I'm saying is that you (or someone) should pester WotC for an official clarification on it before anyone bases their entire build around it.
Based on my reading of the rules, I would consider that an illegal build at a table I was running.
Exception rule. The prerequisites require you to have taken a multiclass fighter feat to take it. I haven't seen anything that trumps the general rules of multiclass feats. Besides the [Multiclass Fighter] tag is classification. What makes you a multiclass fighter, or wizard, or rogue, etc. is the base multiclass feat.
Now, I could be completely wrong, all I'm saying is that you (or someone) should pester WotC for an official clarification on it before anyone bases their entire build around it.
Based on my reading of the rules, I would consider that an illegal build at a table I was running.
How would you address a single feat preventing its own existence? The multiclassed class is not 'your' class, or you could 1) take a human at-will from it, 2) pick powers from it at any time, and 3) take epic destinies that require that class.
A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass feat counts as a member of that class for the purpose of meeting prerequisites for taking other feats and qualifying for paragon paths.
What's the general prerequisite for taking a class-specific multiclass feat? It can't be of your class. So if you've taken Student of the Sword (or whatever) do you count as that class or not in regards to taking a feat? By the RAW, you count as that class, and so you would not be qualified to take another Fighter specific multiclass feat. As i said previously about Battle Acumen, it has an exception based ont he fact that to take it at all, you have to have a Multiclass Fighter feat and be Paragon Multiclassed with Fighter. That allows you to take the feat. Exception to the general rule.
To allow it seems like picking and choosing when it counts and when it doesn't in the absence of a specific exception.
Again, like I said, this is my interpretation based on my reading of the rules. It's something that should be clarified by WotC.
By that logic you could never take the Borderlands Marshal PP which has the prereq of: Warlord and Ranger. You either count as being of that class or not. If you do, then it counts as your class in regards to rules such as this as well.
What's the general prerequisite for taking a class-specific multiclass feat? It can't be of your class. So if you've taken Student of the Sword (or whatever) do you count as that class or not in regards to taking a feat? By the RAW, you count as that class, and so you would not be qualified to take another Fighter specific multiclass feat. As i said previously about Battle Acumen, it has an exception based ont he fact that to take it at all, you have to have a Multiclass Fighter feat and be Paragon Multiclassed with Fighter. That allows you to take the feat. Exception to the general rule.
To allow it seems like picking and choosing when it counts and when it doesn't in the absence of a specific exception.
Again, like I said, this is my interpretation based on my reading of the rules. It's something that should be clarified by WotC.
That's not a prerequisite, that's a restriction. The prerequisite does not say "Must not be a fighter", for example. You do count for prerequisites, such as if a feat says "fighter" under the prerequisites.
So requiring a prior condition to take a feat (a prerequisite) isn't a restriction? It seems to me you're restricted from takign the feat until you meet the conditions neccessary to legally take it. You could just as easily have every multiclass feat say: Prerequisite: Must not be a fighter, or Must not be a Wizard, etc. Is that any less of a restriction? Is it any different than prefacing the Multiclass feat section by saying you cannot take a Multiclass feat if you have that class? No it isn't.
So if a WotC book was released with a section of feats titles "Rogue Feats," followed by a paragrpah stating "To take any of these feats you have to be a Rogue." Then none of the feats had Prerequisite: Rogue, by your logic anyone could take them because it wasn't stated in the Prerequisite section of the feat and was only a "restriction."
"For the purposes of prereqs" counts only the restrictions that are labeled as prereqs.
And that's splitting hairs.
So requiring a prior condition to take a feat (a prerequisite) isn't a restriction? It seems to me you're restricted from takign the feat until you meet the conditions neccessary to legally take it. You could just as easily have every multiclass feat say: Prerequisite: Must not be a fighter, or Must not be a Wizard, etc. Is that any less of a restriction? Is it any different than prefacing the Multiclass feat section by saying you cannot take a Multiclass feat if you have that class? No it isn't.
So if a WotC book was released with a section of feats titles "Rogue Feats," followed by a paragrpah stating "To take any of these feats you have to be a Rogue." Then none of the feats had Prerequisite: Rogue, by your logic anyone could take them because it wasn't stated in the Prerequisite section of the feat and was only a "restriction."
The text you quoted says you only count as a member of the class for specific enumerated purposes. They include prerequisites for feats. They do not include restrictions on feats that are not prerequisites, nor prerequisites for things that are not "other" feats or paragon paths.
Battle Acumen does not give an exception to the rule that you cannot take a multiclass feat of your own class. You are making one up to satisfy your interpretation, because if your interpretation were correct than an exception would be needed or the feat could never be taken. I'm going to have to conclude that your interpretation was incorrect, and that the rule "A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass feat counts as a member of that class for the purpose of meeting prerequisites for taking other feats and qualifying for paragon paths." does not also mean "A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass feat counts as a member of that class for the purpose of restrictions other than prerequisites on taking other feats." just as it does not also mean "A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass feat counts as a member of that class for the purpose of qualifying for epic destinies."
If you read in the extra concept that is not expressed in the text, Battle Acumen is never legal unless you go ahead and read in an exception to your own extra rule which is also not in the text. If you just go by what the book actually says then no exception is needed which would explain why none was given.
Battle Acumen does not give an exception to the rule that you cannot take a multiclass feat of your own class. You are making one up to satisfy your interpretation,
And I say the same about you. Whatever. Until WotC clarifies it, if someone at my table has more than one base multiclass feat they won't be able to use it since it won't be legal.
I dunno... Since you count as that class, to me it seems to fall under rule 1 of multiclassing feats. If you are a Wizard and Fighter (because you took Student of the Sword, for example), then taking another Multiclass feat for Fighter is taking a multiclass feat of your own class.
I think that's an incorrect reading of the following text:
A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass feat counts as a member of that class for the purpose of meeting prerequisites for taking other feats and qualifying for paragon paths. For example, a character who takes Initiate of the Faith counts as a cleric for the purpose of selecting feats that have cleric as a prerequisite.
Someone who takes Student of the Sword only counts as a member of the Fighter class for the purpose of meeting prereqs. They are not actually a Fighter for any other purpose unless a feat or paragon special says so.
Battle Awareness(as an example) does not have being a member of the Fighter class as a prereq. Fighters cannot take it - but as noted above, someone who takes Student of the Sword does not become a Fighter except for meeting prereqs.
I think that's an incorrect reading of the following text:
I disagree. I am not going to go into why as I have already stated it in this thread. What I will repeat is: until WotC clarifies it, I see it as shenanigans. If they ever do I will either be proven correct or will concede the point.
Until that time, it's pointless to continue trying to convince anyone one way or the other. The same points keep being made repeatedly.
I disagree. I am not going to go into why as I have already stated it in this thread. What I will repeat is: until WotC clarifies it, I see it as shenanigans. If they ever do I will either be proven correct or will concede the point.
Until that time, it's pointless to continue trying to convince anyone one way or the other. The same points keep being made repeatedly.
Just because a member of one set takes on some of the properties of another, doesn't mean it then belongs to the other set. It must match the specific properties listed. A rectangle has 4 sides - that doesn't make it a square unless it is stated that they're equal.
Taking a multiclass feat does not make you a member of the Fighter class for purposes of taking feats. If they had intended that to be true, they could have just not said 'of meeting prerequisites'
And it is not at all pointless. You're making a bad ruling. The more people that state this, the less likely someone else makes the same mistake.
You're making a bad ruling.
You think I'm making a bad ruling because you read the RAW and see loopholes that make it more permissible. I think you're making a bad ruling becaue I read the RAW and don't see what is being proposed as permissible.
The more people that state this, the less likely someone else makes the same mistake.
Despite what you may think, it isn't black and white. I can see how everyone is reading it the way they are, but I don't agree that that is what it says. I think it's stretching the rules to allow it, and I believe, firmly, that what is written does not allow it.
You may think it's a mistake, but that doesn't make it so. It's just your opinion.
You may think it's a mistake, but that doesn't make it so. It's just your opinion.
It isn't just my opinion. If you notice, I didn't post until just recently. I'm emphasizing that it is not just the opinion of the people who already disagreed with you.
And I'll note again - this is set theory. You're not making a decision based on RAW, you're making one on RAI. Your opinion only makes sense if we can assume that the writers, for whatever strange reason, were not using set theory - despite writing in an exclusion-based rules system.
PHB page 208:
There are two restrictions on your choice of a multiclass feat. First, you can't take a multiclass feat for your own class. Second, once you take a multiclass feat, you can't take a class-specific feat for a different class.
A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass feat counts as a member of that class for the purpose of meeting prerequisites for taking other feats and qualifying for paragon paths.
To me, from the above quotes (all else from that section is examples, not relevant, and non-relevant pieces, IMO); it would appear that once you take a multiclass feat for X class, you are treated as being of X class for any future feat choices.
True? True per the quote above.
Martial Power does not contain any general text saying that you can take multiple multiclass feats for the same class. It does, however, contain several feats (but not all) that have specific requirements that break the general multiclassing rule, where the feat requires having another multiclass feat for that same class.
However, several of them do not require any multiclass feats as part of their prerequisites, so, therefore, in my opinion, as supported by RAW, you CANNOT have two multiclass feats for the same class if neither of those feats requires having another multiclass feat as a prerequisite.
IMO, all those feats from Martial Power (Battle Awareness, Inspiring Leader, Ruthless Efficiency, Sly Dodge, Tactical Leader and Two-Blade Warrior) do is offer more flexibility in the exact specifications of how you multiclass into another class.
Just as an example, if you took both Ruthless Efficiency and Sneak of Shadows, you would have advantages over a standard Rogue. You would gain training in both Thievery & Stealth, once per encounter, the regular Rogue sneak damage, and full access to the Ruthless Ruffian class feature.
Specific trumps general, but the general rules are that you are considered to be a member of the class you multiclass into by taking the feat, which means that, for future feat choices, you are considered to be a member of that class, which disqualifies you from taking additional multiclass feats for that class.
It isn't just my opinion. If you notice, I didn't post until just recently. I'm emphasizing that it is not just the opinion of the people who already disagreed with you.
Ahhh... so you're privvy to the opinions of everyone, not just the 4 or so people who have posted in this thread. I was unaware of that.
You're not making a decision based on RAW, you're making one on RAI.
Again, that's your opinion. I never look at rules from an RAI standpoint. If one does that, you make them say whatever you want them to say. Like maybe... players named Bob are immune to dragon breath attacks. It was intended! Just not written out very well in the rules. RAI is just an attempt to make the rules say what you want them to.
To which I can easily turn it around and say you are using RAI as a basis of your own thought on the issue.
Your opinion only makes sense if we can assume that the writers, for whatever strange reason, were not using set theory - despite writing in an exclusion-based rules system.
Hmm... general rule of "You can't take a multiclass Feat for a class you already have." Then when you take a multiclass feat you are considered that class for the purpose of feats and paragon paths.
But I guess it doesn't count when you want to take more than one base multiclass feat!
Sorry, you're right... I was totally illogical on my original assessment. How did i not see it? hallelujah, I'm saved!
Ahhh... so you're privvy to the opinions of everyone, not just the 4 or so people who have posted in this thread. I was unaware of that.
Again, that's your opinion. I never look at rules from an RAI standpoint. If one does that, you make them say whatever you want them to say. Like maybe... players named Bob are immune to dragon breath attacks. It was intended! Just not written out very well in the rules. RAI is just an attempt to make the rules say what you want them to.
To which I can easily turn it around and say you are using RAI as a basis of your own thought on the issue.
Hmm... general rule of "You can't take a multiclass Feat for a class you already have." Then when you take a multiclass feat you are considered that class for the purpose of feats and paragon paths.
But I guess it doesn't count when you want to take more than one base multiclass feat!
Sorry, you're right... I was totally illogical on my original assessment. How did i not see it? hallelujah, I'm saved!
Assuming that taking a multiclass feat makes that class your class, then you can pick any powers from it that you like, because you pick powers...from your class.
Assuming that taking a multiclass feat makes that class your class, then you can pick any powers from it that you like, because you pick powers...from your class.
While this technically belongs in a Rules Q&A thread, you're not at all correct in making this statement. You can only take powers from your original class as part of the natural leveling process. In order to gain powers from another class, you must first take a multiclass feat associated with that other class (as you mention above). Then, you must take a power swap feat in order to take a power from that class (such as Novice Power, Acolyte Power, or Adept Power).
Assuming that taking a multiclass feat makes that class your class, then you can pick any powers from it that you like, because you pick powers...from your class.
/facepalm
You even quoted me where I said you are that class in regards to taking feats and paragon paths. Was that really meant to make any kind of salient point?
Taking a multiclass feat does not make you a member of the Fighter class for purposes of taking feats. If they had intended that to be true, they could have just not said 'of meeting prerequisites'
Andy, I hope I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say here...
Are you suggesting that a PC who takes a multiclass feat associated with another class cannot then qualify for feats that have that class (and no other specific class features) as a prerequisite?
For example, a human cleric takes Student of the Sword. That cleric then qualifies for the feat Shield Defense (from Martial Power), because he counts as a fighter for the purposes of taking feats. True or false?
For the record, I'm nearly 100% sure that the answer is "True."
Andy, I hope I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say here...
Are you suggesting that a PC who takes a multiclass feat associated with another class cannot then qualify for feats that have that class (and no other specific class features) as a prerequisite?
For example, a human cleric takes Student of the Sword. That cleric then qualifies for the feat Shield Defense (from Martial Power), because he counts as a fighter for the purposes of taking feats. True or false?
For the record, I'm nearly 100% sure that the answer is "True."
That's not what I'm saying. There are two different statements:
A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass feat counts as a member of that class for the purpose of meeting prerequisites for taking other feats
A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass feat counts as a member of that class for taking other feats
Then when you take a multiclass feat you are considered that class for the purpose of feats and paragon paths.
The 1st statement is what it is - yes, the cleric qualifies for Shield Defense because he meets the prereq - because he counts as a Fighter for purposes of prereqs. The cleric on the other hand, only counts as a Fighter for purposes of prereqs. Battle Awareness is limited to people who do not belong to the Fighter class - that's not one of the listed prerequisites.
The 2nd statement is much broader and backs Dragon9's position. The cleric still qualifies for Shield Defense - because he counts as a Fighter for purposes of feats. But he doesn't qualify for Battle Awareness because he's a Fighter.
But as the quote from the PHB points out, that's not actually the rules.
While this technically belongs in a Rules Q&A thread, you're not at all correct in making this statement. You can only take powers from your original class as part of the natural leveling process. In order to gain powers from another class, you must first take a multiclass feat associated with that other class (as you mention above). Then, you must take a power swap feat in order to take a power from that class (such as Novice Power, Acolyte Power, or Adept Power).
I know that's how it works. It was simply reductio ad absurdium.
You count as that class for the purposes of meeting prerequisites, not for any other part of a feat. I don't see a prerequisite saying "Must not have taken a fighter multiclass feat" on Battle Awareness. Instead, there's one that specifically cannot be taken unless you already have a multiclass feat for fighter, with no language that makes a specific exception.
The 2nd statement is much broader and backs Dragon9's position. The cleric still qualifies for Shield Defense - because he counts as a Fighter for purposes of feats. But he doesn't qualify for Battle Awareness because he's a Fighter.
But as the quote from the PHB points out, that's not actually the rules.
Yeah, I agree there. I guess it could be construed as a gray area, but I believe the following holds true:
a) A Fighter could not take Battle Awareness or Student of the Sword.
b) A Cleric with Student of the Sword can also take Battle Awareness.