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Arcane Trickster

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
koushiro
Jun 08, 2008 12:49:07 So I'm really bored and finally picked what I wanted for my kobold card in Greyhawk Ruins. Doing Sorcerer for arcane trickster was hard, I needed to get its intelligence up rather high. I also wanted to add in spellwarped sniper, but that seemed a bit much.

STR: 6
DEX: 16
CON: 12
INT: 14
WIS: 8
CHA: 15

Kobold Rogue 2/Dragonblooded Sorcerer 4/Unseen Seer 2/Arcane Trickster

Feats were Dragonwrough: Silver and then Dragonbreath. Not sure what else to take for the rest. I've got access to the Greyhawk Feats and Spells, but not sure if any of those are really worth it. Maybe pick up Arcane Strike or something like that and whirling blade a lot.

I need suggestions for spells (especially the bonus Unseen Seer spell) as well as opinions on gear I should hunt for and the like. Anyone have Arcane Trickster tips?
#2
umiskatonic
Jun 08, 2008 18:56:22 You need a fighting style, above all else. Spells and skills will work fine outside combat on their own, but your feats will determine how you fight.

Here are some options....

a) Shoot orbs and rays, leverage sneak attack.
REQ: Point blank, precise, empower or split ray

b) Spring attack with spell support
REQ: Weapon Finesse, Spring attack chain

c) Overpwer with Area effects
Spell Focus, maybe Craft Wondrous to get DC's up

d) Archery
REQ: Point Blank, Precise, Rapid, Craft Arms and Armor.
(take SM III to allow crafting of bane weapons)
#3
koushiro
Jun 10, 2008 2:58:17 With a 6 strength and a lot of d4 hit points, I think I want to hang back at least in orb and ray range. Ranged attacks seem like the ideal thing for me to do.
#4
lomiat
Jun 12, 2008 9:06:08 Tricksters can still specialize in melee at range via Whirling Blade, allowing them some of the benefits of melee attacks, primarily the opportunity to use Staggering Strike from up to 60 ft. away.

Weapons are good things for Tricksters, regardless of whether or not they want to stand near bad guys.
#5
koushiro
Jun 12, 2008 17:44:00 Yeah, I did like how you were whirling blading the heck out of those things. I was wondering what other spells to grab. Things like critical strike, and grease probably.

Orbs are good too though, and I really wish I could work on that spellwarped sniper idea, but it's just too much flavor lost from what I want for a kobold. Damn how I wish LG was going on for another few years.
#6
umiskatonic
Jun 13, 2008 12:10:32 Whirling blade can be a good spell, but I'm afraid it's not for everyone.

With small weapons and a d4 strength, your damage is going to be minimal. Even if you had a spare feat to take staggering strike, the fort save is going to be, what, 9?

I like the hang back and shoot approach. Remember to actually crunch the numbers on spells. For example, at caster level 5, you might be super excited about Scorching Ray, 4-24 damage. However, lesser fire orb does 3-24 damage as a 1st level spell, and bypasses SR.

(Scorching Ray does compete, but pay attention. Better at 4, worse at 5...)

------------------------------------------------------
Alchemical items are another great move. You'll have the aim to carry them off. Of course, you'll need a Heward's to carry them, you only have a str of 6.

I'd go with the rat familiar, your fort save is lousy. Get the vest of resistance sooner rather than later, you'll need that for saves as well. Evasion will help some, kudos for adding that in.

Consider protection from evil or magic circle as a known spell, it's useful all the time. Should you get up there in levels, an 11th level caster can keep a magic circle up for a LONG time.
#7
koushiro
Jun 13, 2008 20:29:03 I believe staggering strike gets better when you pile sneak attack and what have you on top of it.

Maybe I could work in spellwarped sniper into this some how, that'd be exciting. Then you can have those nasty sneak-attacking single target fireballs.
#8
lomiat
Jun 16, 2008 14:19:48
I believe staggering strike gets better when you pile sneak attack and what have you on top of it.

Maybe I could work in spellwarped sniper into this some how, that'd be exciting. Then you can have those nasty sneak-attacking single target fireballs.

Though it's possible to create a Trickster according to other principles than mine (though I don't know how effectively), I feel it's important to remember that a Trickster is *not* a primary caster: The delayed spellcasting progression hinders not only the top-level spell power but also the save DCs. Instead, while Praticed Spellcaster will ultimately even out all caster-level-dependent variables (a necessary feat), a Trickster should focus on spells that round out its versatility, more than those that try to make it a full wizard/sorcerer lite.

You'll want to figure out how you plan to contribute from levels 1 through ... whatever you think you can hit by the end of the campaign: 10, maybe?

You have skills: You should focus on spells that enhance your versatility and that round out your oversights (or the skills you want, but can't take). Comprehend Languages, Knock and similar spells are good for several slots.

You won't be a damage machine unless you can hit 12th level. You'll be able to reasonable, consistent damage, but even with sneak, you'll want to focus on making your contribution as much as possible in other ways. Debuff is a good route for a trickster, especially if combined with a modicum of battlefield control. Ray of Enfeeblement, Grease, Web, Glitterdust, Solid Fog, Dispel Magic and other such spells are all good choices.

However, I think the Trickster's most singular effectiveness is as a scout and trapfinder. Spells that allow for escape and stealth (Invisibility, Swift Invisibility, Blink, Fly, Greater Blink, etc.) are also good for helping you gain sneak attack. Message is a must, and Lesser Telepathic Bond and Arcane Sight are two highly-valuable spells. You'll look to benefit a party much in the same way that a Marshal with the DEX aura does - by helping the party get a drop on the baddies.

As a sorcerer, you'll have little room to fit damage spells in among all those tasty tricks for your bag of tricks, so you'll have to take spells that can count from levels 1 and up. Magic Missile, Lesser Orb of X, Whirling Blade, and Orb of Force should provide nearly all the damage you'll ever need. I wouldn't recommend the Draconic Breath feat as it will likely put you in some rather compromising positions.

If you want to do damage and think you might hit 9th and/or 12th levels, I recommend Arcane Strike (with Whirling Blade) and Staggering Strike, though if you want to go that route, you'll want to avoid Spellwarp Sniper as you'll lose sneak attack damage. Also, be certain to look for a spellstoring weapon!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 koushiro Jun 08, 2008 12:49:07	So I'm really bored and finally picked what I wanted for my kobold card in Greyhawk Ruins. Doing Sorcerer for arcane trickster was hard, I needed to get its intelligence up rather high. I also wanted to add in spellwarped sniper, but that seemed a bit much. STR: 6 DEX: 16 CON: 12 INT: 14 WIS: 8 CHA: 15 Kobold Rogue 2/Dragonblooded Sorcerer 4/Unseen Seer 2/Arcane Trickster Feats were Dragonwrough: Silver and then Dragonbreath. Not sure what else to take for the rest. I've got access to the Greyhawk Feats and Spells, but not sure if any of those are really worth it. Maybe pick up Arcane Strike or something like that and whirling blade a lot. I need suggestions for spells (especially the bonus Unseen Seer spell) as well as opinions on gear I should hunt for and the like. Anyone have Arcane Trickster tips?
#2 umiskatonic Jun 08, 2008 18:56:22	You need a fighting style, above all else. Spells and skills will work fine outside combat on their own, but your feats will determine how you fight. Here are some options.... a) Shoot orbs and rays, leverage sneak attack. REQ: Point blank, precise, empower or split ray b) Spring attack with spell support REQ: Weapon Finesse, Spring attack chain c) Overpwer with Area effects Spell Focus, maybe Craft Wondrous to get DC's up d) Archery REQ: Point Blank, Precise, Rapid, Craft Arms and Armor. (take SM III to allow crafting of bane weapons)
#3 koushiro Jun 10, 2008 2:58:17	With a 6 strength and a lot of d4 hit points, I think I want to hang back at least in orb and ray range. Ranged attacks seem like the ideal thing for me to do.
#4 lomiat Jun 12, 2008 9:06:08	Tricksters can still specialize in melee at range via Whirling Blade, allowing them some of the benefits of melee attacks, primarily the opportunity to use Staggering Strike from up to 60 ft. away. Weapons are good things for Tricksters, regardless of whether or not they want to stand near bad guys.
#5 koushiro Jun 12, 2008 17:44:00	Yeah, I did like how you were whirling blading the heck out of those things. I was wondering what other spells to grab. Things like critical strike, and grease probably. Orbs are good too though, and I really wish I could work on that spellwarped sniper idea, but it's just too much flavor lost from what I want for a kobold. Damn how I wish LG was going on for another few years.
#6 umiskatonic Jun 13, 2008 12:10:32	Whirling blade can be a good spell, but I'm afraid it's not for everyone. With small weapons and a d4 strength, your damage is going to be minimal. Even if you had a spare feat to take staggering strike, the fort save is going to be, what, 9? I like the hang back and shoot approach. Remember to actually crunch the numbers on spells. For example, at caster level 5, you might be super excited about Scorching Ray, 4-24 damage. However, lesser fire orb does 3-24 damage as a 1st level spell, and bypasses SR. (Scorching Ray does compete, but pay attention. Better at 4, worse at 5...) ------------------------------------------------------ Alchemical items are another great move. You'll have the aim to carry them off. Of course, you'll need a Heward's to carry them, you only have a str of 6. I'd go with the rat familiar, your fort save is lousy. Get the vest of resistance sooner rather than later, you'll need that for saves as well. Evasion will help some, kudos for adding that in. Consider protection from evil or magic circle as a known spell, it's useful all the time. Should you get up there in levels, an 11th level caster can keep a magic circle up for a LONG time.
#7 koushiro Jun 13, 2008 20:29:03	I believe staggering strike gets better when you pile sneak attack and what have you on top of it. Maybe I could work in spellwarped sniper into this some how, that'd be exciting. Then you can have those nasty sneak-attacking single target fireballs.
#8 lomiat Jun 16, 2008 14:19:48	I believe staggering strike gets better when you pile sneak attack and what have you on top of it. Maybe I could work in spellwarped sniper into this some how, that'd be exciting. Then you can have those nasty sneak-attacking single target fireballs. Though it's possible to create a Trickster according to other principles than mine (though I don't know how effectively), I feel it's important to remember that a Trickster is not a primary caster: The delayed spellcasting progression hinders not only the top-level spell power but also the save DCs. Instead, while Praticed Spellcaster will ultimately even out all caster-level-dependent variables (a necessary feat), a Trickster should focus on spells that round out its versatility, more than those that try to make it a full wizard/sorcerer lite. You'll want to figure out how you plan to contribute from levels 1 through ... whatever you think you can hit by the end of the campaign: 10, maybe? You have skills: You should focus on spells that enhance your versatility and that round out your oversights (or the skills you want, but can't take). Comprehend Languages, Knock and similar spells are good for several slots. You won't be a damage machine unless you can hit 12th level. You'll be able to reasonable, consistent damage, but even with sneak, you'll want to focus on making your contribution as much as possible in other ways. Debuff is a good route for a trickster, especially if combined with a modicum of battlefield control. Ray of Enfeeblement, Grease, Web, Glitterdust, Solid Fog, Dispel Magic and other such spells are all good choices. However, I think the Trickster's most singular effectiveness is as a scout and trapfinder. Spells that allow for escape and stealth (Invisibility, Swift Invisibility, Blink, Fly, Greater Blink, etc.) are also good for helping you gain sneak attack. Message is a must, and Lesser Telepathic Bond and Arcane Sight are two highly-valuable spells. You'll look to benefit a party much in the same way that a Marshal with the DEX aura does - by helping the party get a drop on the baddies. As a sorcerer, you'll have little room to fit damage spells in among all those tasty tricks for your bag of tricks, so you'll have to take spells that can count from levels 1 and up. Magic Missile, Lesser Orb of X, Whirling Blade, and Orb of Force should provide nearly all the damage you'll ever need. I wouldn't recommend the Draconic Breath feat as it will likely put you in some rather compromising positions. If you want to do damage and think you might hit 9th and/or 12th levels, I recommend Arcane Strike (with Whirling Blade) and Staggering Strike, though if you want to go that route, you'll want to avoid Spellwarp Sniper as you'll lose sneak attack damage. Also, be certain to look for a spellstoring weapon!