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Beguiler feat problems

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
fsi-dib
Apr 12, 2008 16:01:14 So, I have this nice character here, who has a problem with feats.

Loxley Alexander Corbett (I adore this name)
LN Gnome Beguiler 3 (at present time)
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 16
INT 16
WIS 10
CHA 10

Feats: Arcane Mastery, Urban Tracking

The former feat has proven to be very useful when needed. The latter feat is for the meta-organisation.

Though the campaign is about to end, so I try not to make too lengthy plans for my gnome's future. I'm planning on making him a Beguiler 6/Nightmare Spinner 5, at least. Though I doubt he'll ever reach the prestige class.

As for feats, I need suggestions. I had huge troubles choosing Arcane Mastery in the beginning, and by now I'm out of options. If nothing else is acceptable, I'll pick Inside Connection (Nasranite Watch) to aid my affiliation score with the meta-organisation.
#2
umiskatonic
Apr 13, 2008 20:17:11 Well, here goes....

Beguilers tend to have a lot of illusion and enchantment spells. Assuming that you like those equally well.....

1) Imp. Initiative. Going first allows for a lot of good illusionary battlefield control, and helps to set up some of your larger spells, like color spray. You don't want to color spray after the barbarian charges, you might get him too.

2) Spell Focus. I know it's not flashy, but let's face it, a LOT of beguiler spells are saving throw spells.

3) Craft X. I"ve only played a beguiler in WLD, so I've never looked at what, exactly, they could make. My guess is that Wand and Scroll are still good choices, and that Wondrous Item is limited to a very short list of things.

4) DONT waste a feat on a meta-org. You only have two feats right now, and you may only ever get two more. Feats are the most limited resource in the game. Take something good.
#3
fsi-dib
Apr 14, 2008 6:50:25 Hmm, Improved Initiative indeed is never a bad choice. I better consider that on 6th level.

As for Spell Focus... well, many of the good spells requiring a save are distributed into many different schools. Glitterdust is conjuration, silent image and color spray are illusion, dominate and charm are enchantment and so on.

Craft? I already have more spells per day than I need, so scrolls and wands are nigh useless. Wondrous items cost a lot, and even then I'd need access, and a beguiler can't craft nearly anything with its small list.

Urban Tracking isn't what I'd call "wasting", it still has its functions. Inside Connections indeed feels more of a waste, didn't consider it wholeheartly. I still intend to give this character as much role-playing possibilities as possible.

Then again ... brew potion? Hmm... potions of invisibility don't sound so bad.
#4
mwao_dup
Apr 14, 2008 6:56:02
Craft? I already have more spells per day than I need, so scrolls and wands are nigh useless. Wondrous items cost a lot, and even then I'd need access, and a beguiler can't craft nearly anything with its small list.

Craft is more of a 9th level feat, where you've finally got enough UMD/Decipher Script/Spellcraft to typically make UMD checks on scrolls for items.

Improved Init works well with the flatfooted part of Beguiler. Spell Focus sets up nicely into Unsettling Enchantment/Distract Assailant and too many spells. You use Distract Assailant on whoever the BDF is planning to attack next...
#5
umiskatonic
Apr 14, 2008 14:01:34 Oh, i didn't mean Urban Tracking was a waste. I do feel that Inside Connections is a waste, however.

How many mods feature your meta-org?
How many mods feature you casting spells?

I mean, that's an easy decision in my book.

I hear the difficulty choosing a school with Spell Focus, but keep in mind that your non-focus schools are still good. They don't get worse, the others get better.

A craft feat is probably better at 9th level. Not only can you UMD your way to greatness, as Mommy points out, but 9th level is where you start getting real amounts of money to play with.

I mean, boots of elvenkind for 1250? That's, what, one APL 8 mod? Half an APL 10 mod? No problem.
#6
fsi-dib
Apr 14, 2008 23:57:38 Hm, Spell Focus might do nicely in the end. But I was looking for something else too.
#7
jstorrie
Apr 15, 2008 1:47:58 I'd go the following way–

- Retrain Arcane Mastery to Spell Focus: Enchantment
- Take Unsettling Enchantment at 3
- Take Improved Initiative at 6
- Take Craft Wondrous Item at 9
- Take Ability Focus: Deadly Nightmare

Distract Assailant with Unsettling Enchantment is great–burn a first-level spell slot to give a target -3 to saves against the next spell you're about to cast, and also to leave them flat-footed and debuffed. AF: Deadly Nightmare is pretty great at 12–that's 3 Heightened Phantasmal Killers per day, above and beyond your other spells (of which you have a lot.) Definitely helps to make up for being behind one spell level.
#8
mwao_dup
Apr 15, 2008 7:08:54
IDistract Assailant with Unsettling Enchantment is great–burn a first-level spell slot to give a target -3 to saves against the next spell you're about to cast, and also to leave them flat-footed and debuffed. AF: Deadly Nightmare is pretty great at 12–that's 3 Heightened Phantasmal Killers per day, above and beyond your other spells (of which you have a lot.) Definitely helps to make up for being behind one spell level.

While I think that's a good way to go too, Unsettling Enchantment doesn't affect DCs, it just affects AC and attacks by the opponent.
#9
katrick
Apr 15, 2008 12:11:39 Combat Expertise and improved Feint, make suprise casting a swift, and add to DC's, perhaps even Skill Focus (Bluff) to up your chances.

katrick
#10
mwao_dup
Apr 15, 2008 17:42:31
Combat Expertise and improved Feint, make suprise casting a swift, and add to DC's, perhaps even Skill Focus (Bluff) to up your chances.

katrick

Combat Expertise and Improved Feint almost always don't particularly benefit Beguilers. They don't want to be in melee as they can't actually use Combat Expertise on their AC if they're casting. Nor is Charisma a particularly useful stat for them.

A much better solution is Distract Assailant as a 3rd level free choice.
#11
umiskatonic
Apr 15, 2008 19:17:58 Those beguiler 'cast in combat' options are, in my opinion, a trap for players. Because you get the option, many players assume that it's worth using.

I think it's like a sorceror getting proficiency with longspear. Don't think that you're supposed to be in melee.
#12
timlagor
Apr 16, 2008 9:22:37 Absolutely a trap!

Do not under any circumstances waste Feats like that or be so foolish as to get any closer to melee than you absolutely have to.

Take the benefit when you win Initiative or it comes up otherwise but don't go chasing that one too hard (there are pleny of spells that deny dex and they tend to be good already)
#13
katrick
Apr 18, 2008 15:50:27 touch of idiocy
your invisible or greater, your dex based or rely on spells whats the diff
at third level you add a wiz spell shocking grasp, sneak up invis, touch attack swift action thanx for comin, rely on high dex and some tumbl to get out, you can even fight def.
IMO that's what this class was designed for!
This worked excessively well in Xendrik, under Dave C
katrick
#14
mwao_dup
Apr 18, 2008 16:05:15 Beguilers can't learn Shocking Grasp...touch of idiocy is a nice spell, but it tends to either work or not work at all. It isn't something to base a character concept around.

touch of idiocy
your invisible or greater, your dex based or rely on spells whats the diff
at third level you add a wiz spell shocking grasp, sneak up invis, touch attack swift action thanx for comin, rely on high dex and some tumbl to get out, you can even fight def.
IMO that's what this class was designed for!
This worked excessively well in Xendrik, under Dave C
katrick

#15
katrick
Apr 18, 2008 17:20:35 misread, and confusion
katrick
#16
timlagor
Apr 18, 2008 19:08:06 I'm confused as to what you are referring to as your swift action.. if you are in visible you don't need to feint in the first place...
#17
katrick
Apr 18, 2008 19:11:55 with surprise casting the feint becomes swift if you have improved feint, dropping their dex, adding to your DC, allowing sneak etc...but as you say irrelevant hence the misread re-edit
katrick
#18
fsi-dib
Apr 19, 2008 6:24:19 I noticed that Touch of Idiocy is excellent for debuffing spellcasters. It doesn't give a saving throw; instant 1d6 penalty to all mental stats for 10min/lvl, with a successful melee touch attack. And it's a touch spell; I believe it doesn't magically vanish with a missed attack.
#19
mwao_dup
Apr 19, 2008 11:56:46
I noticed that Touch of Idiocy is excellent for debuffing spellcasters. It doesn't give a saving throw; instant 1d6 penalty to all mental stats for 10min/lvl, with a successful melee touch attack. And it's a touch spell; I believe it doesn't magically vanish with a missed attack.

Well, in the context that Beguilers can cast Silence as a 2nd level spell, it is usually better to just ready to silence the spellcaster...
#20
fsi-dib
Apr 20, 2008 1:50:35 Ah yes, that's very true as well. Touch of Idiocy has 'style' however. ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 fsi-dib Apr 12, 2008 16:01:14	So, I have this nice character here, who has a problem with feats. Loxley Alexander Corbett (I adore this name) LN Gnome Beguiler 3 (at present time) STR 8 DEX 14 CON 16 INT 16 WIS 10 CHA 10 Feats: Arcane Mastery, Urban Tracking The former feat has proven to be very useful when needed. The latter feat is for the meta-organisation. Though the campaign is about to end, so I try not to make too lengthy plans for my gnome's future. I'm planning on making him a Beguiler 6/Nightmare Spinner 5, at least. Though I doubt he'll ever reach the prestige class. As for feats, I need suggestions. I had huge troubles choosing Arcane Mastery in the beginning, and by now I'm out of options. If nothing else is acceptable, I'll pick Inside Connection (Nasranite Watch) to aid my affiliation score with the meta-organisation.
#2 umiskatonic Apr 13, 2008 20:17:11	Well, here goes.... Beguilers tend to have a lot of illusion and enchantment spells. Assuming that you like those equally well..... 1) Imp. Initiative. Going first allows for a lot of good illusionary battlefield control, and helps to set up some of your larger spells, like color spray. You don't want to color spray after the barbarian charges, you might get him too. 2) Spell Focus. I know it's not flashy, but let's face it, a LOT of beguiler spells are saving throw spells. 3) Craft X. I"ve only played a beguiler in WLD, so I've never looked at what, exactly, they could make. My guess is that Wand and Scroll are still good choices, and that Wondrous Item is limited to a very short list of things. 4) DONT waste a feat on a meta-org. You only have two feats right now, and you may only ever get two more. Feats are the most limited resource in the game. Take something good.
#3 fsi-dib Apr 14, 2008 6:50:25	Hmm, Improved Initiative indeed is never a bad choice. I better consider that on 6th level. As for Spell Focus... well, many of the good spells requiring a save are distributed into many different schools. Glitterdust is conjuration, silent image and color spray are illusion, dominate and charm are enchantment and so on. Craft? I already have more spells per day than I need, so scrolls and wands are nigh useless. Wondrous items cost a lot, and even then I'd need access, and a beguiler can't craft nearly anything with its small list. Urban Tracking isn't what I'd call "wasting", it still has its functions. Inside Connections indeed feels more of a waste, didn't consider it wholeheartly. I still intend to give this character as much role-playing possibilities as possible. Then again ... brew potion? Hmm... potions of invisibility don't sound so bad.
#4 mwao_dup Apr 14, 2008 6:56:02	Craft? I already have more spells per day than I need, so scrolls and wands are nigh useless. Wondrous items cost a lot, and even then I'd need access, and a beguiler can't craft nearly anything with its small list. Craft is more of a 9th level feat, where you've finally got enough UMD/Decipher Script/Spellcraft to typically make UMD checks on scrolls for items. Improved Init works well with the flatfooted part of Beguiler. Spell Focus sets up nicely into Unsettling Enchantment/Distract Assailant and too many spells. You use Distract Assailant on whoever the BDF is planning to attack next...
#5 umiskatonic Apr 14, 2008 14:01:34	Oh, i didn't mean Urban Tracking was a waste. I do feel that Inside Connections is a waste, however. How many mods feature your meta-org? How many mods feature you casting spells? I mean, that's an easy decision in my book. I hear the difficulty choosing a school with Spell Focus, but keep in mind that your non-focus schools are still good. They don't get worse, the others get better. A craft feat is probably better at 9th level. Not only can you UMD your way to greatness, as Mommy points out, but 9th level is where you start getting real amounts of money to play with. I mean, boots of elvenkind for 1250? That's, what, one APL 8 mod? Half an APL 10 mod? No problem.
#6 fsi-dib Apr 14, 2008 23:57:38	Hm, Spell Focus might do nicely in the end. But I was looking for something else too.
#7 jstorrie Apr 15, 2008 1:47:58	I'd go the following way– - Retrain Arcane Mastery to Spell Focus: Enchantment - Take Unsettling Enchantment at 3 - Take Improved Initiative at 6 - Take Craft Wondrous Item at 9 - Take Ability Focus: Deadly Nightmare Distract Assailant with Unsettling Enchantment is great–burn a first-level spell slot to give a target -3 to saves against the next spell you're about to cast, and also to leave them flat-footed and debuffed. AF: Deadly Nightmare is pretty great at 12–that's 3 Heightened Phantasmal Killers per day, above and beyond your other spells (of which you have a lot.) Definitely helps to make up for being behind one spell level.
#8 mwao_dup Apr 15, 2008 7:08:54	IDistract Assailant with Unsettling Enchantment is great–burn a first-level spell slot to give a target -3 to saves against the next spell you're about to cast, and also to leave them flat-footed and debuffed. AF: Deadly Nightmare is pretty great at 12–that's 3 Heightened Phantasmal Killers per day, above and beyond your other spells (of which you have a lot.) Definitely helps to make up for being behind one spell level. While I think that's a good way to go too, Unsettling Enchantment doesn't affect DCs, it just affects AC and attacks by the opponent.
#9 katrick Apr 15, 2008 12:11:39	Combat Expertise and improved Feint, make suprise casting a swift, and add to DC's, perhaps even Skill Focus (Bluff) to up your chances. katrick
#10 mwao_dup Apr 15, 2008 17:42:31	Combat Expertise and improved Feint, make suprise casting a swift, and add to DC's, perhaps even Skill Focus (Bluff) to up your chances. katrick Combat Expertise and Improved Feint almost always don't particularly benefit Beguilers. They don't want to be in melee as they can't actually use Combat Expertise on their AC if they're casting. Nor is Charisma a particularly useful stat for them. A much better solution is Distract Assailant as a 3rd level free choice.
#11 umiskatonic Apr 15, 2008 19:17:58	Those beguiler 'cast in combat' options are, in my opinion, a trap for players. Because you get the option, many players assume that it's worth using. I think it's like a sorceror getting proficiency with longspear. Don't think that you're supposed to be in melee.
#12 timlagor Apr 16, 2008 9:22:37	Absolutely a trap! Do not under any circumstances waste Feats like that or be so foolish as to get any closer to melee than you absolutely have to. Take the benefit when you win Initiative or it comes up otherwise but don't go chasing that one too hard (there are pleny of spells that deny dex and they tend to be good already)
#13 katrick Apr 18, 2008 15:50:27	touch of idiocy your invisible or greater, your dex based or rely on spells whats the diff at third level you add a wiz spell shocking grasp, sneak up invis, touch attack swift action thanx for comin, rely on high dex and some tumbl to get out, you can even fight def. IMO that's what this class was designed for! This worked excessively well in Xendrik, under Dave C katrick
#14 mwao_dup Apr 18, 2008 16:05:15	Beguilers can't learn Shocking Grasp...touch of idiocy is a nice spell, but it tends to either work or not work at all. It isn't something to base a character concept around. touch of idiocy your invisible or greater, your dex based or rely on spells whats the diff at third level you add a wiz spell shocking grasp, sneak up invis, touch attack swift action thanx for comin, rely on high dex and some tumbl to get out, you can even fight def. IMO that's what this class was designed for! This worked excessively well in Xendrik, under Dave C katrick
#15 katrick Apr 18, 2008 17:20:35	misread, and confusion katrick
#16 timlagor Apr 18, 2008 19:08:06	I'm confused as to what you are referring to as your swift action.. if you are in visible you don't need to feint in the first place...
#17 katrick Apr 18, 2008 19:11:55	with surprise casting the feint becomes swift if you have improved feint, dropping their dex, adding to your DC, allowing sneak etc...but as you say irrelevant hence the misread re-edit katrick
#18 fsi-dib Apr 19, 2008 6:24:19	I noticed that Touch of Idiocy is excellent for debuffing spellcasters. It doesn't give a saving throw; instant 1d6 penalty to all mental stats for 10min/lvl, with a successful melee touch attack. And it's a touch spell; I believe it doesn't magically vanish with a missed attack.
#19 mwao_dup Apr 19, 2008 11:56:46	I noticed that Touch of Idiocy is excellent for debuffing spellcasters. It doesn't give a saving throw; instant 1d6 penalty to all mental stats for 10min/lvl, with a successful melee touch attack. And it's a touch spell; I believe it doesn't magically vanish with a missed attack. Well, in the context that Beguilers can cast Silence as a 2nd level spell, it is usually better to just ready to silence the spellcaster...
#20 fsi-dib Apr 20, 2008 1:50:35	Ah yes, that's very true as well. Touch of Idiocy has 'style' however. ;)