Best way to optimize a centaur. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Best way to optimize a centaur.

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
koushiro
May 28, 2008 22:12:27 I know the campaign is ending, but we kind of came up witha wierd build for a centaur and were wondering if anyone actually tried it or has any opinions/way to make it better/etc.

The general idea would be that you'd start off with your 6 levels of centaur and then take a level of beguiler, then go into dragon diciple. It was a build that was to optimize the high strength character an use the natural attacks that you'd get Bite/claw/claw/hoof/hoof

I think the feats included Multiattack and Awesomeblow.
#2
mwao_dup
May 28, 2008 22:49:42
I know the campaign is ending, but we kind of came up witha wierd build for a centaur and were wondering if anyone actually tried it or has any opinions/way to make it better/etc.

The general idea would be that you'd start off with your 6 levels of centaur and then take a level of beguiler, then go into dragon diciple. It was a build that was to optimize the high strength character an use the natural attacks that you'd get Bite/claw/claw/hoof/hoof

I think the feats included Multiattack and Awesomeblow.

It doesn't really have a lot of benefit over the Centaur X/Sorcerer 1/Fighter 2/Dragon Disciple 4 builds. Beguiler 1 spells tend to fall off a cliff as far as APL goes - where there are the occasional 1st level Wiz/Sorc spells that are useful in combat that have no somatic component(Critical Strike, Blades of Flame)
#3
_metz_
May 28, 2008 23:03:10 I have seen some decent centaur archers, but I maintain that the best ones are still the Sorceror1/DD4

Centaur6/Barbarian1/Fighter2/Exotic Weapon Master1/Sorceror1/DD4

Works well. I have seen one of those. Silly amounts of strength and damage.
#4
hariman
May 29, 2008 0:41:45
I have seen some decent centaur archers, but I maintain that the best ones are still the Sorceror1/DD4

Centaur6/Barbarian1/Fighter2/Exotic Weapon Master1/Sorceror1/DD4

Works well. I have seen one of those. Silly amounts of strength and damage.

There's a guy in my area that's giving his centaur Cragtop Archer levels, a greatbow, far shot, a bow of distance, and lots of cheese. (Might or might not be open, I'd have to check.)

And I quote said player:"My character fires at the giant on top of the hill that's being fought by the APL 14 table. It's only 2000 feet away, so it's in range."

The centaur is quite welcome at any table I play at too. He's a ranged damage machine who's pretty good in melee as well. He's just a little fragile due to being a centaur.

A centaur archer has potential too.
#5
_metz_
May 29, 2008 2:31:31
And I quote said player:"My character fires at the giant on top of the hill that's being fought by the APL 14 table. It's only 2000 feet away, so it's in range."

You do play in LG right ;)

I know a cragtop Archer and would like to point out that it is utterly useless in the LG setting. Why?

Because of two things. Auto Spurprise and Box text. In LG you could be wandering across an open desert and then BAM the bad guys materialise 100 feet away from you, and you start rolling initiative. Thus these ludicrous ranges are not so impressive as you might think.

I know of a few mod where cavalry was spotted in the distance cresting a ridge and it wasn't until the box text finished and they were right up (80 feet) that we were allowed to do anything. (Explicity stated in the module). Weren't allowed to fire pot shots at the obviously hostile bad guys, go invisible, nothing.

Please don't refer to that archer as cheese. Unless he has exit wounds than he is not cheesy.

I wonder how the term got to be so liberally used these days, as an original wargamer cheesy does not mean 'it works as a viable concept'. It means unbalanced and costs too little for what you get.

For example: The radiant servant of Pelor costs feats you would take anyway if you were a healing/turning cleric. This makes it essentially an improvement for no cost, and is the ultimate iconic cleric prestige class. Hence it is cheesy.

Cragtop archer costs you feats/damage in exchange for range increments. That is not cheesy.
#6
umiskatonic
May 29, 2008 10:11:06 Seriously, I think the best way to optimize a centaur is to cross out the word centaur with a magic marker, and write in anything else instead.

If you must play a centaur, Multiattack is a great feat to take, and anything that leverages massive strength/size is a good move.

Cenaturs will be good at bull rushing, grappling, and tripping. Power attacking is not far behind, but centaurs have less Bab to convert than human fighters.

Leadership, with a bard/marshal cohort is surprisingly good as well. Bard song and art of war can make an average centaur into something horrible.
#7
mwao_dup
May 29, 2008 11:42:48 Centaurs aren't that bad - the big problem, particularly starting out now in LG, is that you need to play 3-6 levels with choices that likely only become really important at levels 4 and 7 - when you get that precious 2nd feat and the ability to take some other class.

As an example, a high charisma warchanter means having a Centaur with a high Charisma. Which is useless from levels 1-6.
#8
timlagor
May 29, 2008 13:42:34 Mine is not rigorously optimised but I'm happy with him.

- Centaur 6 (Power Attack; EWP)
- (Ex-)Monk 2
- Barbarian 1 [cheesy I know but he's likely my only ever melee in 3.5 and :P; Monk2 just gave me too much to pass up and Drexal's alignment onthe L-C axis has always been somewhat fluid)
- EWM 1 (Great Scimitar; Uncanny Blow)*
- Fighter 1 Imp Crit + Extra Rage
- I think I'm then going Fighter 2-4 taking Tunnel Fighting initially but retrraining to get Elusive target at 14th (when I also hit 11BAB being down 2HD and one more BAB for monk)
/ The other option I'm seriously considering is Ranger 2 p[icking up Rapid Shot for some serious nastyness from my Strengh+9 bow when then enemy are being difficult (favoured enemy probably Dragons) -don't need any other archery feats since I'm only using it when melee isn't an option.

* Spiked Chain would have been more powerful [already have CRef and Flurry is probably worth as much damage as UB; Improved Trip is out of the question but I could trip without it; 8bp is a lot to spend to be able to get that but I suppose it would be ok ..4k for a headband would probably be the way to go]

My pre-modifier attributes were 16 Str&Con, 12 Dex&Int and 8Cha&Wis
So:
24(28belt) / 20(22) / 16(18) / 10 / 10 / 8
At 11th level, I have good HP and Evasion, Imp Grapple (+24/+26raging) and Raging, PA=2: +18/+13 for 2d6+29 (15-20/x2)
[where's my sacred scabbard?]

The hooves actually don't count for much: +11/+11 for 1d6+9 each but sometimes they will finish something off. I certainly don't see that damage being worth a Feat investment to increase slightly or make more likely (they also aren't magic)

Tunnel fighting was a pretty difficult decision -it would sure help but Centaurs really don't get a lot of Feats (only 2 in the first 6 levels!). It would have made life easier but it's lack has not been critical so far.

I'm not convinced that Dragon Disciple is the best way to go but if I did do that I would definitely grab a couple of monk levels first for Evasion and Flurry (Flurry/Flurry/Haste Unarmed/Claw/Claw/Bite/Flurry Iterative-possibly grapple) -unfortunately you still only get half that lovely Strength bonus on the natural weapons so things like grappling and tripping look really good.

I don't think anything that takes casting seriously is a a very good option for a centaur.

EDIT: Is tunnel fighting a fighter bonus feat?
PS: I'd be interested in people's thoughts for Drexal's post-11 career. He's likely to play at 12th but I'm not betting on 14th.
#9
koushiro
May 30, 2008 2:17:54 Well the general idea of the dragon disciple was to get the amount of natural attacks up to 5 to really enjoy cheesing multi-attack.

It had something like +20 to bite and then +18 to claws/hooves and did a silly amount of damage. We were also wondering if we could work it into the greyhawk ruins campaign thing so it could have Dungeon Crasher.
#10
bitznarf
Jun 02, 2008 11:27:03 [derail]
In LG you could be wandering across an open desert and then BAM the bad guys materialise 100 feet away from you, and you start rolling initiative. Thus these ludicrous ranges are not so impressive as you might think.

This isn't an LG specific thing, its a D&D thing:
In general, the maximum distance in desert terrain at which a Spot check for detecting the nearby presence of others can succeed is 6d6
#11
stonebasher
Jun 02, 2008 17:06:04
[derail]

This isn't an LG specific thing, its a D&D thing:

So yes, while 100ft is on the low end, it is well within the limits set in the DMG.
[/derail]

Yeah, most people tend to forget that rule. I don't remember the multiplier, but it applies to flat, grassy plains as well. (Heard a complaint a while back about a barbarian charging across the plain, and what the heck was the mod author thinking when you can bombard him from hundreds of feet away.)

Oh, and to have some relevance to the thread, I would love to see a centuar monk. Purely just for the flavor.

Wes

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 koushiro May 28, 2008 22:12:27	I know the campaign is ending, but we kind of came up witha wierd build for a centaur and were wondering if anyone actually tried it or has any opinions/way to make it better/etc. The general idea would be that you'd start off with your 6 levels of centaur and then take a level of beguiler, then go into dragon diciple. It was a build that was to optimize the high strength character an use the natural attacks that you'd get Bite/claw/claw/hoof/hoof I think the feats included Multiattack and Awesomeblow.
#2 mwao_dup May 28, 2008 22:49:42	I know the campaign is ending, but we kind of came up witha wierd build for a centaur and were wondering if anyone actually tried it or has any opinions/way to make it better/etc. The general idea would be that you'd start off with your 6 levels of centaur and then take a level of beguiler, then go into dragon diciple. It was a build that was to optimize the high strength character an use the natural attacks that you'd get Bite/claw/claw/hoof/hoof I think the feats included Multiattack and Awesomeblow. It doesn't really have a lot of benefit over the Centaur X/Sorcerer 1/Fighter 2/Dragon Disciple 4 builds. Beguiler 1 spells tend to fall off a cliff as far as APL goes - where there are the occasional 1st level Wiz/Sorc spells that are useful in combat that have no somatic component(Critical Strike, Blades of Flame)
#3 _metz_ May 28, 2008 23:03:10	I have seen some decent centaur archers, but I maintain that the best ones are still the Sorceror1/DD4 Centaur6/Barbarian1/Fighter2/Exotic Weapon Master1/Sorceror1/DD4 Works well. I have seen one of those. Silly amounts of strength and damage.
#4 hariman May 29, 2008 0:41:45	I have seen some decent centaur archers, but I maintain that the best ones are still the Sorceror1/DD4 Centaur6/Barbarian1/Fighter2/Exotic Weapon Master1/Sorceror1/DD4 Works well. I have seen one of those. Silly amounts of strength and damage. There's a guy in my area that's giving his centaur Cragtop Archer levels, a greatbow, far shot, a bow of distance, and lots of cheese. (Might or might not be open, I'd have to check.) And I quote said player:"My character fires at the giant on top of the hill that's being fought by the APL 14 table. It's only 2000 feet away, so it's in range." The centaur is quite welcome at any table I play at too. He's a ranged damage machine who's pretty good in melee as well. He's just a little fragile due to being a centaur. A centaur archer has potential too.
#5 _metz_ May 29, 2008 2:31:31	And I quote said player:"My character fires at the giant on top of the hill that's being fought by the APL 14 table. It's only 2000 feet away, so it's in range." You do play in LG right ;) I know a cragtop Archer and would like to point out that it is utterly useless in the LG setting. Why? Because of two things. Auto Spurprise and Box text. In LG you could be wandering across an open desert and then BAM the bad guys materialise 100 feet away from you, and you start rolling initiative. Thus these ludicrous ranges are not so impressive as you might think. I know of a few mod where cavalry was spotted in the distance cresting a ridge and it wasn't until the box text finished and they were right up (80 feet) that we were allowed to do anything. (Explicity stated in the module). Weren't allowed to fire pot shots at the obviously hostile bad guys, go invisible, nothing. Please don't refer to that archer as cheese. Unless he has exit wounds than he is not cheesy. I wonder how the term got to be so liberally used these days, as an original wargamer cheesy does not mean 'it works as a viable concept'. It means unbalanced and costs too little for what you get. For example: The radiant servant of Pelor costs feats you would take anyway if you were a healing/turning cleric. This makes it essentially an improvement for no cost, and is the ultimate iconic cleric prestige class. Hence it is cheesy. Cragtop archer costs you feats/damage in exchange for range increments. That is not cheesy.
#6 umiskatonic May 29, 2008 10:11:06	Seriously, I think the best way to optimize a centaur is to cross out the word centaur with a magic marker, and write in anything else instead. If you must play a centaur, Multiattack is a great feat to take, and anything that leverages massive strength/size is a good move. Cenaturs will be good at bull rushing, grappling, and tripping. Power attacking is not far behind, but centaurs have less Bab to convert than human fighters. Leadership, with a bard/marshal cohort is surprisingly good as well. Bard song and art of war can make an average centaur into something horrible.
#7 mwao_dup May 29, 2008 11:42:48	Centaurs aren't that bad - the big problem, particularly starting out now in LG, is that you need to play 3-6 levels with choices that likely only become really important at levels 4 and 7 - when you get that precious 2nd feat and the ability to take some other class. As an example, a high charisma warchanter means having a Centaur with a high Charisma. Which is useless from levels 1-6.
#8 timlagor May 29, 2008 13:42:34	Mine is not rigorously optimised but I'm happy with him. - Centaur 6 (Power Attack; EWP) - (Ex-)Monk 2 - Barbarian 1 [cheesy I know but he's likely my only ever melee in 3.5 and :P; Monk2 just gave me too much to pass up and Drexal's alignment onthe L-C axis has always been somewhat fluid) - EWM 1 (Great Scimitar; Uncanny Blow)* - Fighter 1 Imp Crit + Extra Rage - I think I'm then going Fighter 2-4 taking Tunnel Fighting initially but retrraining to get Elusive target at 14th (when I also hit 11BAB being down 2HD and one more BAB for monk) / The other option I'm seriously considering is Ranger 2 p[icking up Rapid Shot for some serious nastyness from my Strengh+9 bow when then enemy are being difficult (favoured enemy probably Dragons) -don't need any other archery feats since I'm only using it when melee isn't an option. * Spiked Chain would have been more powerful [already have CRef and Flurry is probably worth as much damage as UB; Improved Trip is out of the question but I could trip without it; 8bp is a lot to spend to be able to get that but I suppose it would be ok ..4k for a headband would probably be the way to go] My pre-modifier attributes were 16 Str&Con, 12 Dex&Int and 8Cha&Wis So: 24(28belt) / 20(22) / 16(18) / 10 / 10 / 8 At 11th level, I have good HP and Evasion, Imp Grapple (+24/+26raging) and Raging, PA=2: +18/+13 for 2d6+29 (15-20/x2) [where's my sacred scabbard?] The hooves actually don't count for much: +11/+11 for 1d6+9 each but sometimes they will finish something off. I certainly don't see that damage being worth a Feat investment to increase slightly or make more likely (they also aren't magic) Tunnel fighting was a pretty difficult decision -it would sure help but Centaurs really don't get a lot of Feats (only 2 in the first 6 levels!). It would have made life easier but it's lack has not been critical so far. I'm not convinced that Dragon Disciple is the best way to go but if I did do that I would definitely grab a couple of monk levels first for Evasion and Flurry (Flurry/Flurry/Haste Unarmed/Claw/Claw/Bite/Flurry Iterative-possibly grapple) -unfortunately you still only get half that lovely Strength bonus on the natural weapons so things like grappling and tripping look really good. I don't think anything that takes casting seriously is a a very good option for a centaur. EDIT: Is tunnel fighting a fighter bonus feat? PS: I'd be interested in people's thoughts for Drexal's post-11 career. He's likely to play at 12th but I'm not betting on 14th.
#9 koushiro May 30, 2008 2:17:54	Well the general idea of the dragon disciple was to get the amount of natural attacks up to 5 to really enjoy cheesing multi-attack. It had something like +20 to bite and then +18 to claws/hooves and did a silly amount of damage. We were also wondering if we could work it into the greyhawk ruins campaign thing so it could have Dungeon Crasher.
#10 bitznarf Jun 02, 2008 11:27:03	[derail] In LG you could be wandering across an open desert and then BAM the bad guys materialise 100 feet away from you, and you start rolling initiative. Thus these ludicrous ranges are not so impressive as you might think. This isn't an LG specific thing, its a D&D thing: In general, the maximum distance in desert terrain at which a Spot check for detecting the nearby presence of others can succeed is 6d6
#11 stonebasher Jun 02, 2008 17:06:04	[derail] This isn't an LG specific thing, its a D&D thing: So yes, while 100ft is on the low end, it is well within the limits set in the DMG. [/derail] Yeah, most people tend to forget that rule. I don't remember the multiplier, but it applies to flat, grassy plains as well. (Heard a complaint a while back about a barbarian charging across the plain, and what the heck was the mod author thinking when you can bombard him from hundreds of feet away.) Oh, and to have some relevance to the thread, I would love to see a centuar monk. Purely just for the flavor. Wes