This time, I need advice and opinions on making a Kobold Rogue/Swashbuckler for Greyhawk Ruins. (As I'm not sure I want to keep playing my cleric. Being the backup/healer isn't too much fun right now.)
Currently, the stats are: (Ability score/(cost in points))
STR: 11 (8)
DEX: 18 (10)
CON: 12 (6)
INT: 12 (4)
WIS: 8 (0)
CHA: 8 (0)
I WILL be giving my kobold Rogue/Swashbuckler the Kobold Rogue Substitution Levels. (IE: This guy will be able to find and disable traps, if nothing else.)
Skills to Max out: Search, Disable Device, Spot, Listen.
Caveat on skill points: No matter what other skills are taken, 1 skill point per rogue level will be used for Craft Trapmaking. This is necessary to gain the Kobold Bonuses to Trapfinding and Disabling. (A +2 to finding and disabling traps at rogue levels 1, 3 and 8.)
I have looked at Rogue/Swashbuckler because of the Daring Outlaw Feat and more importantly, swashbuckler levels will increase this character's survivability. (Bigger hit dice, bonus to fort save, Weapon Finesse at level 2.)
Feats I have considered:
Two Weapon Fighting (Obvious reasons)
Kobold Tail (If I can Weapon Finesse it, it will be another potential sneak attack at a decent bonus earlier than Improved Two Weapon Fighting.)
Kobold Wings (The movement options don't hurt here. And I'll never go beyond light armor with Swashbuckler/Rogue.)
Daring Outlaw (More Sneak attack is good.)
Improved Toughness: (HP = Survival)
My base idea for the progression is:
Level: Class
1: Rogue1 (Feat: TWF or Dragon Tail (tail attack at -5, or -2 with multiattack.)
2: Swashbuckler (Weapon Finesse)
3: Rogue (TWF, Improved Toughness, other feat)
4: Rogue (2d6 Sneak Attack)
5: Swashbuckler
6: ?
He's probably not going to make it past level 5 or 6, at best. That's why I'm only really considering levels 1 through 5.
Another option that I have considered is Kobold Rogue/Fighter. The character would lose out on some skill points and sneak attack progression, but Fighter levels would provide bonus feats and the Kobold Fighter Substitution levels provide boosts to Con and Strength. Constitution being the more important (and earlier) of those two.
Fighter Levels would also open up the option of Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, although getting to a high enough level for Specialization is unlikely.
I welcome any advice, criticisms, recommendations and ideas for this character.
Thanks in advance,
Hariman
I'd suggest going with the tail idea, since Weapon Finesse will work with it, and you've only got one chance to grab it (you can add TWF on top of that afterwards). I think I'd prefer doing swashbuckler first then rogue with a build like this; being unable to hit at first level really limits the power of SA. Dragon Wings doesn't really pan out until level 6 w/ Improved Dragon Wings IMO (just got there with my divine dragon. I love using Anklets of Translocation to warp into the air and stay there, raining magic missiles and other doom on my foes.)
Don't forget to grab a SLA from the draconic rite of passage. Shield could serve you well defensively. Swift Expeditious Retreat can be a great mobility option (especially at the levels where tumble will be slowing you down). Shocking Grasp is a solid option for dishing out a bit extra to heavily armored foes. (You can use both weapon finesse and sneak attack to make it really stick. If you miss initially, hold the charge and try and channel it through your tail attack until you hit. Since this won't be eating up your main weapon attacks.) If you're planning to end around level 5, you won't find a better damage option than Shocking Grasp IMO.
Shocking Grasp was an option that I hadn't considered. I was originally considering Fist of Stone. Although Fist of Stone has a short duration (1 minute. Period.) it grants a +3 to regular attacks and an additional slam as a secondary attack.
But Shocking Grasp is a touch attack and electricity damage (which is resisted only rarely in the lower levels.) I probably won't take the Rite until level 2 because it takes a hit point and this guy only starts with 5hp. (The Kobold Rogue Substitution levels have D4 hit dice.)
I prefer taking Rogue first, as it grants a highly useful 36 skill points at level one. Also, at level one, I can get away with assisting the beefier character's attacks and flanking to stay alive. (Or standing back and plinking away with a shortbow for +5/1d4 damage. Don't knock it. I finished off a huge monstrous spider with 1d4+1 arrows with my rogue wizard, who was only a rogue at the time..)
Other advice I seek is combat strategy recommendations and equipment recommendations. I know about buying special materials like Cold Iron and Silver and that I'll need Masterwork quality weapons ASAP, but I'm really not sure if there's anything special beyond "Some potions of Cure Light, Masterwork then magical weapons, a haversack to deal with equipment weight and the best armor my guy can use. (Mithral Chain, if at all possible.)
IF you're going to go with TWF, you're going to do a lot of damage sometimes, but you won't be able to take a lot of damage. You'll have glass jaw problems.
This will be worse because you have a low Con.
This will be worse still because you have small size and a low str (INT to damage will eventually help)
I'd change the character concept a bit, and use the feats to support what you're doing. The way I see it, you're NOT a fighter. No heavy armor, no d10 hit points, no rage, no medium size, no two-handed power attack, no enormous strength.
Kobold Wings is fantastic, get that as soon as you can. A flying sneaky guy is tremendously useful, and defeats both pit traps and tremorsense with ease.
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So, start with rogue for skill points. But then ask yourself, who cares about skill points? Small sneaky guys, that's who. Job one is to be the rogue. ONCE you have that under control, use Daring Outlaw so that you're not embarassing yourself in combat. But you'll never be a fighter.
Forget about Imp. Toughness and Two-weapon fighting. Buy a buckler, and then fight with one hand. Then, move your CON to 14, and start with a 17 DEX. You'll have a lot more staying power, and more feats.
Use those feats to fight like a kobold, and take Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack or Elusive Target or both. With fighting defensively and the buckler, you'll have rock-star armor class, and will be able to move around the battlefield in appropriately Daring fashion. Much more fun than "oh, I have 6 more HP because of my feat"
(this is why humans work really well)
I don't see this build as being that viable with the swashbuckler levels.
If you really want to be a combat Rogue, I would go:
Rogue4/Fighter2/Swash1/PrC4
Problem there is the xp penalty
If you want to be a Kobold Rogue, then I suggest just go straight rogue, with some alternate class features. The level dips into fighter and sswashbuckler don't really pay off all that well.
Also its near impossible to ge tthe wings AND decent fighting capability AND Rogue skills at a reasonable level withough dips into fighter/swash.
Kobolds are funky and everyone wants to play them, but sometmes they are just not that viable.
I like the Daring Kobold idea. But I also think there's room for improvement.
IF you're going to go with TWF, you're going to do a lot of damage sometimes, but you won't be able to take a lot of damage. You'll have glass jaw problems.
This will be worse because you have a low Con.
This will be worse still because you have small size and a low str (INT to damage will eventually help)
I'd change the character concept a bit, and use the feats to support what you're doing. The way I see it, you're NOT a fighter. No heavy armor, no d10 hit points, no rage, no medium size, no two-handed power attack, no enormous strength.
Kobold Wings is fantastic, get that as soon as you can. A flying sneaky guy is tremendously useful, and defeats both pit traps and tremorsense with ease.
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So, start with rogue for skill points. But then ask yourself, who cares about skill points? Small sneaky guys, that's who. Job one is to be the rogue. ONCE you have that under control, use Daring Outlaw so that you're not embarassing yourself in combat. But you'll never be a fighter.
Forget about Imp. Toughness and Two-weapon fighting. Buy a buckler, and then fight with one hand. Then, move your CON to 14, and start with a 17 DEX. You'll have a lot more staying power, and more feats.
Use those feats to fight like a kobold, and take Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack or Elusive Target or both. With fighting defensively and the buckler, you'll have rock-star armor class, and will be able to move around the battlefield in appropriately Daring fashion. Much more fun than "oh, I have 6 more HP because of my feat"
So what you're saying is:
1: Lose TWF and focus on one weapon and armor class instead of two weapons and damage. (I could grab a buckler anyway and still get TWF.)
2: Get that 14 con for those extra HP, even if it means sacrificing Dex. (I could do the same by taking a few points from STR or INT)
You say Kobold Wings is great, but that won't kick in until level 6. Elusive Target has the same problem.
From what you're saying here I think you're recommending Rogue/Fighter for the Con boost.
If you want to be a Kobold Rogue, then I suggest just go straight rogue, with some alternate class features. The level dips into fighter and swashbuckler don't really pay off all that well.
Also its near impossible to get the wings AND decent fighting capability AND Rogue skills at a reasonable level without dips into fighter/swash.
Kobolds are funky and everyone wants to play them, but sometimes they are just not that viable.
I'll settle for rogue skill and decent fighting capability. The Wings aren't really viable as they'll mostly be a "In case of Pit Trap" thing with the expected levels for this character. (I'm only expecting to make it to level 5 or so.)
So, the levels of Rogue and Swashbuckler should provide both rogue skills and damage. (2d6 SA, trapfinding and some other skills.) The swashbuckler levels are, to me, very important as they provide extra hit points and a boost to the fortitude save, weapon finesse and a little extra BAB.
Dragon Tail and TWF accomplish the same thing, but one requires a second weapon and the other forces a larger penalty on the extra attack.
Keep in mind that I'm not expecting to get beyond level 5, so actually getting to the point where he can take Elusive Target or other BAB +6 feats is unlikely. I'm looking for a character that can find traps and fight decently for levels 1 through 5, not for builds that get extra goodies at level 6 and up.
1. Rogue: Dragon Tail, TWF fighting
2. Fighter: Weapon Finesse
3. Rogue2: Weapon focus (whatever weapon you are using)
4. Fighter2: Two Weapon Pounce
5. Rogue3:
At level five thats three attacks with 2d6 sneak attack and a BAB of 4. You should be pretty reasonable at dishing out damage.
Just an Idea. If you go to 6 than take rogue 4. +1 BAB and uncanny dodge (xp hit but meh if you aren't playing this PC more after that)
STR: 10
DEX: 16
CON: 14 (Survivability is crucial.)
INT: 14 (Extra skill points never hurt.)
WIS: 8
CHA: 8
This set of stats provides this character with a few crucial things:
1:Con 14 = "Standard" recommended constitution score for LG in my area. Con 12 got laughed at by one of the more experienced players.
2:No penalty to Strength = No penalty to damage.
3:A good Dex score, though not as good as 18 Dex, it's still respectable.
4: Extra skill points and damage should I make it to level 6 with swashbuckler. Extra Skill points if I take fighter.
If you only expect to get to level 5: Rogue3/fighter2 works better.
1. Rogue: Dragon Tail, TWF fighting
2. Fighter: Weapon Finesse
3. Rogue2: Weapon focus (whatever weapon you are using)
4. Fighter2: Two Weapon Pounce
5. Rogue3:
At level five thats three attacks with 2d6 sneak attack and a BAB of 4. You should be pretty reasonable at dishing out damage.
Just an Idea. If you go to 6 than take rogue 4. +1 BAB and uncanny dodge (xp hit but meh if you aren't playing this PC more after that)
Metz: You might have something with taking fighter over swashbuckler. I might lose out on the Daring Outlaw feat at 6, but I'd have my choice of better weapons than rogue proficiencies and I think I'd still get the option to use a shield. BTW: Light Spiked Mithral Shield would be the best, but I might not get the money for that.
The play that I am (almost) assured on this character is Greyhawk Ruins parts 2, 3 and 4. (Totaling 12 zones of Greyhawk Ruins, as I've already played all of part 1.) and 2 or three of the core intros, depending on how much XP they give. There's a possibility of this guy getting to play in Barrow of the Forgotten King, but I'm not counting on that.
Oh, also, Kobolds only get one feat at level 1. So I have to either take Dragon Tail right off the bat, or I have to take something else that I can retrain into Dragon Tail after level one passes. (Toughness is tempting, just to get by level 1.)
Here is an alternative, build points wise...
1. Rogue: Dragon Tail
2. Fighter: Weapon Finesse
3. Rogue2: TWF fighting
4. Fighter2: Kobold Alt class feature +2 con
5. Rogue3:
Then you CAN take con 12, or even end up with a con 16 kobold (hilarious).
At level 6 you could take swashbuckler 1 and retrain weapon finesse to some other feat too.
Fighter > Swashbuckler.
The main point is that daring outlaw builds work becuase they stack well at HIGH levels. At low levels they don't give you much. HEnce Fighter is probably a better choice.
Here is an alternative, build points wise...
1. Rogue: Dragon Tail
2. Fighter: Weapon Finesse
3. Rogue2: TWF fighting
4. Fighter2: Kobold Alt class feature +2 con
5. Rogue3:
Then you CAN take con 12, or even end up with a con 16 kobold (hilarious).
At level 6 you could take swashbuckler 1 and retrain weapon finesse to some other feat too.
Fighter > Swashbuckler.
Oh no, I'm not taking Con 12. I'm gonna take Con 14 and getting Con 16 at level 4. But I get what you're trying to say. Daring Outlaw doesn't kick in until level 6 at the earliest and works best with a large number of Swashbuckler levels.
If I get this guy beyond level 5, I'll take fighter levels to get to Weapon Specialization by level 7 and skip the boost to strength. (Even if I miss out on the +2 to strength, the +2 to damage is worth it.) And as a build, taking a total of rogue4/fighter5 by level 9 means I can get Melee Weapon Mastery at 9.
But Rogue/Fighter works a little better than Rogue/Swashbuckler, if just because of the flexibility.
I'll probably take either shield, mage armor, or shocking grasp as the Rite of Passage SLA.
One thought that occurred to me was to take fighter and drop INT in favor of 18 Dex, since this guy won't need INT for Swashbuckler abilities. Actually, I think I will do that. The Kobold bonuses to trapfinding and disabling help out there.
Hariman
PS: I think you mean Fighter < Swashbuckler. < = Greater Than, > = Less Than. The "point" on the greater than and less than symbols points at the better of the two options.
PS: I think you mean Fighter < Swashbuckler. < = Greater Than, > = Less Than. The "point" on the greater than and less than symbols points at the better of the two options.
Get back to school, Hariman! < is less than, > is greater than ;) The point points to the lesser of the two options!
Get back to school, Hariman! < is less than, > is greater than ;) The point points to the lesser of the two options!
If I ever meet the teacher who taught me the method I've been using to remember the wrong way to look at less than and greater than symbols, I'm gonna slap her. Hard. If I can remember which teacher she was.
The center of this reply was censored for rude comments and mentions of politics.
So, Maesto, the question is, aside from a correction, do you have any advice for my Kobold Fighter?
Alas, not really. I've never really played a melee fighter or a rogue. I tend to be fairly caster heavy
Jolyon, I am shocked? really?
:P
hariman, never EVER suggest fighter 5. that brings a tear to my eye.
THOU SHALT NOT TAKE UNEVEN LEVELS OF FIGHTER!
Rogue 5 is better, +1d6 sneak and skill points...
Also you don't want too much fighter, better taking a roguey PrC or buy a Ring of Blinking and work your way into dervish...
Jolyon, I am shocked? really?
:P
hariman, never EVER suggest fighter 5. that brings a tear to my eye.
THOU SHALT NOT TAKE UNEVEN LEVELS OF FIGHTER!
Rogue 5 is better, +1d6 sneak and skill points...
Also you don't want too much fighter, better taking a roguey PrC or buy a Ring of Blinking and work your way into dervish...
Did you forget that LG goes to 15? And that I have to keep both classes even.
EDIT: (Like anyone saw the original that was up for all of a minute.)
Melee Weapon mastery has BAB +8 as a prereq. Either I take fighter5 or I mutt this guy out more than he already will be. And Fighter 5 leads to Fighter 6 and another feat.
Better off with stuff like:
Two Weapon Pounce
Quickdraw
Deadly Defense
STAGGERING STRIKE (this is really a must when you can get it)
Improved TWF (actually quite useful if you have crazy dex/good BAB/Buffs)
Dervish Levels.
As someone with a 15th level Rogue TWF I know how it works... 10d6+1 at +20 to hit versus 10d6+5 at +22 to hit is NOT worth 3 feats and four fighter levels... Especially when those feats aren't affecting your tail, or other stuff like thrown acid flasks/SAPs (a rogue's friend)
Then again I have a ring of blinking and death strike bracers so I am spoilt...
You lose:
- 1 Sneak Attack die
- a few skills points
In exchange, you get
- better HP
- better Fort Save
- better BAB (and the possibility to take Weapon Finesse at level 1)
- TWF as a bonus feat at level 2
- you still get Trapfinding using the Trap Expert ACF, which you can access as a Greyhaw Ruins character.
Your build could be:
1. Ranger: Weapon Finesse, Track (bonus feat)
2. Ranger: TWF (bonus feat)
3. Rogue: Vexing Flanker, 1d6 sneak attack, Kobold Rogue substitution level
4. Rogue
5. Rogue: 2d6 sneak attack
Vexing Flanker (+4 to hit when flanking) seems quite appropriate in such a build
Skills to max at each level:
- Search
- Disable Device
- Listen
- Spot
- Craft(Trapmaking) at Rogue levels
- Survival at Ranger levels
- Whatever floats your boat
Why not start with 2 level of Ranger before going Rogue?
You lose:
- 1 Sneak Attack die
- a few skills points
In exchange, you get
- better HP
- better Fort Save
- better BAB (and the possibility to take Weapon Finesse at level 1)
- TWF as a bonus feat at level 2
- you still get Trapfinding using the Trap Expert ACF, which you can access as a Greyhaw Ruins character.
Your build could be:
1. Ranger: Weapon Finesse, Track (bonus feat)
2. Ranger: TWF (bonus feat)
3. Rogue: Vexing Flanker, 1d6 sneak attack, Kobold Rogue substitution level
4. Rogue
5. Rogue: 2d6 sneak attack
Vexing Flanker (+4 to hit when flanking) seems quite appropriate in such a build
Skills to max at each level:
- Search
- Disable Device
- Listen
- Spot
- Craft(Trapmaking) at Rogue levels
- Survival at Ranger levels
- Whatever floats your boat
So how are you getting past Vexing Flanker's prereq of Combat Reflexes? Fighter is more attractive than ranger because of the boost to con (Although I might suffer losing that in favor of a fighter bonus feat.) Swashbuckler is more attractive than ranger because of Daring Outlaw.
I'm not saying that it's a bad idea. It's just not what I want for this character.
Metz: The Focus/Specialization/Mastery line of feats is a set of feats that I really like for melee characters. And it is possible to choose bludgeoning weapons so that Melee Weapon Mastery WOULD affect the tail.
Hmmm...
Rogue1: Kobold Tail, 1d6 sneak attack
Fighter1: Weapon Finesse
Rogue2: Two Weapon Fighting
Fighter2: Quick Draw or Con +2
Rogue3: 2d6 sneak attack, Penetrating Strike?
Does that look a little better? The main flaw I can see is that the damage output is a little low (on individual hits), so I'll be hoping to see access to Augment Crystals and other cheap items that will help with that.
Of course, not many characters get 3 attacks at level 3, so that should be worth something.
As for going into a prestige class, all of the prestige classes that I've looked at either require too many of the wrong (IE: I won't get them before higher levels) feats or don't add to sneak attack. Although a level of wizard at level 4, rogue at 5 and then unseen seer at level 6 is tempting, I don't think that it's worth it.
With 18 DEX, you would end up with 2 attack at +5 to hit, and 1 attack at -1 to hit at level 3 (assuming MW weapons).
Assuming you're flanking, that's still more than decent attack rolls for the primary attacks, and 3d6+1d4 damage (assuming you can sneak attack and hold a martial weapon in 1 hand) yields an average 13 damage! And getting even better at level 5 :D
Considering your BAB progression, I quite frankly don't believe Kobold Tail will make a difference. It's certainly fun and flavorful, but in my experience +3 to hit at level 5 (assuming a flanking position) is rarely successful. You could probably replace it by something more useful to your character? I liked your idea of Toughness, just to survive at level 1.
OOps, I forgot about the Vexing Flanker prereq :embarrass
With 18 DEX, you would end up with 2 attack at +5 to hit, and 1 attack at -1 to hit at level 3 (assuming MW weapons).
Assuming you're flanking, that's still more than decent attack rolls for the primary attacks, and 3d6+1d4 damage (assuming you can sneak attack and hold a martial weapon in 1 hand) yields an average 13 damage! And getting even better at level 5 :D
Considering your BAB progression, I quite frankly don't believe Kobold Tail will make a difference. It's certainly fun and flavorful, but in my experience +3 to hit at level 5 (assuming a flanking position) is rarely successful. You could probably replace it by something more useful to your character? I liked your idea of Toughness, just to survive at level 1.
Actually, 18 Dex + Weapon Finesse @ level 3 = +8 for a normal attack, (Dex, Size bonus, BAB and MW weapons.) and Dragon Tail lets me get the same effect as Improved Two Weapon Fighting, without having to draw a weapon.
If I skip the tail, I could take Two weapon Fighting at level one and then Fighter/Combat Reflexes and Vexing Flanker at level 3.
I would definitely take the tail if you're getting lots of sneak attack -an extra attack is worth a lot and from what you're saying it doesn't stop you getting ITWF too (if you get that far).
Actually the question is: by what level do you want to reach 2d6 sneak attack?
If you absolutely want it by level 5, then i would skip the tail and go for Combat Reflexes/Vexing Flanker.
By level 3 your modifier to hit is:
BAB: +2
Size: +1
Key ability DEX: +4
MW weapons: +1
TWF: -2
Total: +6 / +10 (flanking)
You'll be as effective as an optimised lvl 3 fighter who's not power-attacking when in melee against critable guys, and be useful outside combat as well. Very nice low-level build!
Doing level 6 et 7 as a fighter would net you 2 other feats (and not take XP penalties neither) if you plan to go that far.
I imagine he meant +5 including the TWF penalty and without the MW weapon.
I would definitely take the tail if you're getting lots of sneak attack -an extra attack is worth a lot and from what you're saying it doesn't stop you getting ITWF too (if you get that far).
The tail doesn't interfere with ITWF at all. The ultimate in absurdity would be to take Fist of Stone at the Rite of Passage spell like ability, which would give this guy a slam attack at -5 in addition to the rest of his attacks.
The best way I can see to get the tail would be to take TWF at level one then retrain into the tail later.
Unfortunately, for the foreseeable future, I'll be playing my kobold cleric. This rogue is the backup in case my cleric buys it permanently. Considering that my kobold cleric has 21 AC with only full plate and a light shield, (neither of which are magical) he's pretty survivable.
Fist of Stone is not a spell I've used much but I'm pretty sure the Slam replaces one of your hands (though he could still use armour spikes to replace that I suppose)
Not if I can convince my DM that a character can hold a light weapon in his teeth. ;)
But seriously, I'm kidding. I missed the dreadwood for the trees there. The best way to deal with that that I can think of is a lesser crystal of return. That way the character could use the weapon, drop it, then swift action it back into his hands. The flaw is I might never see the access needed.
And, like I mentioned before, I'm giving my Kobold Cleric another chance. I finally got him Full Plate Armor and his AC has hit "happy fun" level. Plus, he just hit level 3, so he's not quite so weak.
Completely cooking one encounter with a well placed Sound Burst and rolling well enough on a Turning check to destroy the undead enemies kinda helps.
Crystal won't help you as you can't use the same 'limb' for both regardless of whether or not you are still holding the weapon -you're going to have to resort to Armour Spikes I think.
If I have to resort to armor spikes with a rogue, it's probably getting a little silly. I can't see any rules in the PHB preventing Armor Spikes from being put on a Chain Shirt. BUT, I'm a little under the weather right now so you can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
I believe you can put Armour Spikes on any armour.
You only have to resort to ASs if you want to 'cheese' the extra attack ..no one is forcing you.
I believe you can put Armour Spikes on any armour.
I'd propably have to draw the line at seeing someone dressed in padded armor with cold iron armor spikes. Or just harass them for a few seconds about it.
Wes
Though I do have a Kobold Fighter, currently with natural strength of 19 (level 11) who is having a blast in red hand. (It seems fighters who can fly are a major boon in that particular module)
I hoenstly think that you are better off not making this PC a kobold. If the reason yo uare making it a kobold is just "to have a Kobold" than that may not be a strong enough concept. Alternatively there are much better things to do with your kobold.
Though I do have a Kobold Fighter, currently with natural strength of 19 (level 11) who is having a blast in red hand. (It seems fighters who can fly are a major boon in that particular module)
Oh, your probably right on that point. A halfling would have the same dex, better strength and constitution. A gnome would have better strength and FAR better constitution, though a little less dex. Elves get reams of stuff that is good for rogues, dwarves get better Con and stonecunning. Humans get the extra feat/skill points.
But they don't get the Kobold Rogue substitution levels that grant bonuses to trapfinding or the kobold tail (Or wings, if I'm feeling quirky.)
I choose Kobold (Don't anybody dare make a pokemon reference.) because I'm a sucker for the tough build. I also happen to like dragons a lot and this is the closest I'll get to playing a dragon. Even if he is a wimpy little kobold who needs sneak attack to do damage, it's better than trying a human rogue again.
Hariman
PS: Technically, ANY character is better off not being a Kobold. The stat penalties are ROUGH. Although the total of +3 boost to AC is handy. (+1 size, +1 Dex, +1 Natural Armor) My kobold cleric enjoys 21 AC with NON-magical fullplate and a light shield at level 3. Another player's dwarven cleric needed to upgrade both his armor and shield to +1 (minimum) just to match that number. It's just that that 12 con might kill my kobold cleric one day.
PS: Technically, ANY character is better off not being a Kobold. The stat penalties are ROUGH. Although the total of +3 boost to AC is handy. (+1 size, +1 Dex, +1 Natural Armor) My kobold cleric enjoys 21 AC with NON-magical fullplate and a light shield at level 3. Another player's dwarven cleric needed to upgrade both his armor and shield to +1 (minimum) just to match that number. It's just that that 12 con might kill my kobold cleric one day.
Almost any character. With the access Kobolds come with, they make good arcane casters/clerics just on principle.
As to playing a dragon, why not wait a week for 4th edition.....?
Almost any character. With the access Kobolds come with, they make good arcane casters/clerics just on principle.
As to playing a dragon, why not wait a week for 4th edition.....?
Because I'm going to be that one crazy as all **** guy that plays a tiefling that ISN'T a warlock? Now, you wonder, why would I do that?
It's simple. My mistake with my rogue wizard was that I jumped on the Arcane Trickster bandwagon and didn't think it through and play to his strengths and weaknesses. I don't want to jump on another bandwagon because "It looks cool.".
So if I do play a tiefling, I'll probably play either a rogue or a fighter. Or maybe a wizard or sorcerer. Just not a tiefling.
Getting my own subject back on topic (And asking a question because I'd like to look at other options since I have time.):
What advice does everyone have for playing a Kobold rogue and only taking rogue levels?
The advantages I see are:
Great trapfinding: By third level a Kobold Rogue gets +4 to search and disable device checks vs traps at the mere cost of 1 skill point per level.
Sneak attack without delay: There are no dead levels of fighter or swashbuckler to delay Sneak Attack. And a ruins rogue can take penetrating strike at level 3. (Half SA damage to non-crittables.)
Better than normal AC: I've already mentioned that Kobolds get a net +3 to AC. (Dex, Size, Natural Armor.)
30 move on a small character. Kobolds are a quick little breed.
The disadvantages are:
Kobold stats: Nuff said.
Low hit dice: Kobold Rogue Substitution levels only grant d4 hit dice instead of the usual d6 a rogue gets, so even buying con 14, (after adjustements) kobolds are still a little more fragile than others.
Light sensitivity: Bright daylight isn't in every mod, but -1 to attacks isn't a good thing.
Delayed weapon finesse: No weapon finesse until level 3 makes kobolds cry.
Any recommendations on how to play to a kobold rogue's (or, for that matter, Kobold rogue/fighter or swashbuckler, as they're both similar.) strengths and minimize his weaknesses?
Hariman
PS: Kobold casters, whether arcane or divine, do fare better than the more martial classes. That's why I'm playing a kobold cleric. I didn't start a kobold sorcerer or kobold warmage because I'm already playing Lukas, my sorcerer.
PPS: Yes I am aware of the irony of playing a non warlock tiefling because I don't want to jump on the bandwagon. I realize that I am jumping on the other bandwagon.
PPPS: If I play a dragonborn, I'll probably play a dragonborn warlock just for ****s and giggles.
Straight Rogue, TWF and remember that you suck until higher levels.
Its the same with ALL rogues. People dont realise that, they expect big bang for thier buck at low levels when they really only get good combat wise after level 9.
If you are wanting an interesting melee character for low levels don't build a rogue.
If you want a rogue at low levels don't expect it to be amazing at melee.
Oh an those three points of armour class mean next to nothing when you can't take advantage of shields/heavy armour.
The reason that you don't see man yhigh level rogues is that they ar ereally tough to play in the low levels in LG - especially with the plethora of undead/constructs/autosurprise/Traps that rogues can't find cos the DM doesn't understand how search works
Its a hard knock life being a rogue and if the PC isn't long term, I wouldn't suggest it. Play a Kobold Beguiler Dracolexi instead. More bang for your buck.
Kobold rogue:
Straight Rogue, TWF and remember that you suck until higher levels.
Its the same with ALL rogues. People dont realise that, they expect big bang for thier buck at low levels when they really only get good combat wise after level 9.
If you are wanting an interesting melee character for low levels don't build a rogue.
If you want a rogue at low levels don't expect it to be amazing at melee.
Oh an those three points of armour class mean next to nothing when you can't take advantage of shields/heavy armour.
The reason that you don't see man yhigh level rogues is that they ar ereally tough to play in the low levels in LG - especially with the plethora of undead/constructs/autosurprise/Traps that rogues can't find cos the DM doesn't understand how search works
Its a hard knock life being a rogue and if the PC isn't long term, I wouldn't suggest it. Play a Kobold Beguiler Dracolexi instead. More bang for your buck.
Beguiler/Dracolexi doesn't kick in until 6th level, and no offense, but beguilers are a step behind a good sorcerer. Sorcerers get a variety that Beguilers can never match. Beguilers get a focus that is barely tolerable and handicaps them throughout their career. Plus, Kobold abilities make Beguilers even harder to stat out.
If anything, I'd play a Bard/Dracolexi. I can inspire for +2/+2, cast bard spells (support and buffing, mainly) and dracolexi prereqs/abilities dovetail nicely with bard.
It seems the most I could get combat wise before level 9 with a rogue build would probably be done via rogue/swashbuckler/daring outlaw. At 6th I could have INT to damage, 3d6 Sneak attack and a semi spiffy +10 to attack from BAB, stats and size alone.
Maybe a Scout/Ranger archer would be better. Or scout1/sorcerer5/unseen seer2/spellwarp sniper5/Arcane Trickster2.
But this will only become an issue if my kobold cleric dies.
If you want a Kobold fighter, then do that. (I can vouch for it being viable, not optimal, but viable)
I dunno, Beguilers make pretty good rogues (skill wise)
If you want a Kobold fighter, then do that. (I can vouch for it being viable, not optimal, but viable)
Kobold Fighter is a very strange thing. You get a +2 to dex, but if you take Kobold Fighter Substitution Level 1, you get weapon focus in SPEARS, which aren't finessable. (Although free dodge is handy for elusive target types.)
So you have to play against a Kobold's strengths and crank STR up really high to start, take 4 fighter, 1 sorcerer and then 4 levels of Dragon Disciple for the boosts to Strength to get a respectable strength, AND you have to shoehorn in Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Weapon Mastery for the extra damage.
Which is why a Daring Kobold is so attractive. You play to the size and dex bonuses of Kobolds, get sneak attack to up damage, and still manage to squeeze in the Rogue skills at a respectable rate. As for AC, +4 Dex and +4 Armor are equal to Full Plate. Not to mention that kobolds still get size and natural armor. Swashbucklers can use either bucklers or light shields and gain a dodge bonus to AC that scales as the level. The main trick is magicing up the armor and shield and buying the right protective items to keep the AC high.
Although, A fighter or fighter swashbuckler would probably do more damage without needing a flanking buddy or sneak attack.