I'm brand new to LG (perfect timing I know)
I've started a TWF Dwarf Rogue as follows and need some advice on further levels. I think I have the general idea but any input would be helpful.
Dwarf Rogue
Str 12
Dex 16
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 10
1 Rogue 1 Two weapon fighting
2 Fighter 1 Weapon finess
3 Rogue 2 Improved initiative
Balance 4 (ranks)
Climb 3
Craft (weapon smith) 1
Diplomacy 2
Disable device 6
Hide 4
Open lock 1
Search 4
Sleight of hand 4
Spot 3
Tumble 4
Use Magic device 1
I plan to go on to
4 Fighter 2 Improved buckler Defense (+1 dex)
5 Rogue 3
6 Rogue 4 Improved two weapon fighting
7 Fighter 3
8 Fighter 4 Weapon focus (Short sword) (+1 dex)
9 Fighter 5 Weapon specialization (short sword)
10 Rogue 5
11 Rogue 6
12 Rogue 7 Quick draw (+1 Dex)
13 Rouge 8
14 Rouge 9
15 Rouge 10 Flick of the wrist
Is this good? Is it bad? I'm not really used to mid-maxing so I need more than a little help. Some suggested Prestige classes might help too.
...
1 Rogue 1 Weapon finess
2 Fighter 1 Two weapon fighting
3 Rogue 2 Improved initiative
...
Weapon Finesse has a pre-req of BAB +1; your rogue doesn't have that at first level. You could switch WF with 2WF and be OK...
6 Rogue 4 Improved two weapon fighting
This is a problem one, too. At this point, you'd be a Ftr2/Rog4, with a BAB of +5 (rogue BAB is on the "3/4" advancement schedule). That means you wouldn't yet qualify for ITWF, because it has a prereq of a +6 BAB. You could take the Weapon Focus there if you wanted.
What sort of weapons are you looking at using? If you're willing to burn a feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency, you can proficiently use a dire flail or a two-bladed sword, which'll help your damage output (since that's the most straightforward way to be using a d8 weapon in your off hand without any additional penalties beyond the base -2 for TWF). If you're not planning on pursuing tripping or disarming, I'd lean towards the two-bladed sword, because of the better crit range. That, and you'll look like a dwarven Darth Maul. ;)
1. Its more dwarven and does not need the EWP of the two bladed sword mentioned above.
2. It gives you d8 damage on the primary hand instead of d6.
3. This will let you take exotic weapon master so you can flurry with it.
Another option would be to raise your intelligence and go rogue/swashbuckler.
I would try to take weapon focus earlier, if at all possible.
I don't like 12 strength for TWF. You get no strength bonus to damage with your off-hand and weapon finesse is only buying a +2 to hit. I'd either go 10 and use the points elsewhere or go 14 and forget weapon finesse.
Ed
Consider using the urgosh instead of short swords.
1. Its more dwarven and does not need the EWP of the two bladed sword mentioned above.
2. It gives you d8 damage on the primary hand instead of d6.
3. This will let you take exotic weapon master so you can flurry with it.
While the two-bladed sword would require the EWP feat (and, yes, that's an advantage of the urgosh for a dwarf), the two-bladed sword gives you d8 damage with *both* hands.
Consider using the urgosh instead of short swords.
1. Its more dwarven and does not need the EWP of the two bladed sword mentioned above.
2. It gives you d8 damage on the primary hand instead of d6.
3. This will let you take exotic weapon master so you can flurry with it.
Just remember, very few double weapons are finessable. Short swords are pretty good if you want to TWF with weapon finesse.
AugdenKhos, what books do you have access to? There are a lot of nifty feats and prestige classes out there, but at this stage in the campaign I feel bad advising someone to buy books just for the sake of an LG character.
The basic idea looks fine: dwarf is a nice racial choice for a rogue (darkvision, stonecunning and a Con bonus are all good). Swashbuckler (CW) can be a good dip for free Weapon Finesse, and the Daring Outlaw feat (CS) allows you to stack rogue and swashbuckler levels for sneak attack (allowing you to take advantage of swashbuckler's better BAB and hit points, while progressing sneak attack). I would ONLY take four fighter levels if you have access to PHB2 and plan to take Melee Weapon Mastery: even then, those fighter levels are pretty painful for your skills and sneak attack advancement. Staggering Strike (Complete Adventurer) is another nice feat for a melee rogue.
If you can use Dungeonscape, you may want to consider making your home region the Domain of Greyhawk (which means you need to play a Greyhawk Ruins scenario before hitting L2), as it allows you (iirc) to choose the Penetrating Strike alternate class feature - this lets you apply half your sneak attack damage against creatures normally immune to sneak attack.
Dwarf
Str 14 Dex 16 Con 16 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 6
1 Rogue: Two-Weapon Fighting
2 Fighter: Weapon Finesse
3 Fighter: Weapon Focus: Kukri, Quick Draw
4 Fighter
5 Fighter: Weapon Specialization (Kukri)
6 Rogue: Telling Blow
7 Rogue
8 Rogue
9 Rogue: Two-Weapon Pounce
10 Rogue
11 Rogue
12 Rogue: Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing)
13 Rogue
14 Rogue
15 Rogue: Staggering Strike
Skills:
On Rogue levels: Search, Disable Device, Move Silently, Hide, Listen, Spot, Tumble, Balance, Jump, Climb
On Fighter levels: Search (cc), Disable Device (cc), Tumble (cc)
Its a shortsword that does slashing, and is harder to break than a Kurkri. Also is touogher to disarm.
Its an Open LIGHT martial weapon, and I would Suggest it for TWF roguey types...
Not to mention Dwarf Pirates are cool... (sees a dwarf with a bandana and pegleg tumbling around slashing things!)
Staggering Strike is crazy good.
Deadly Defense isn't a bad feat either.
Jstorries Build is pretty good.
(Its very similar to my Pirate build, which has less fighter and more fnky PrCs, I can vouch for it working. Skill points are the main thing here, until you get some good access, you are a skillmonkey who can only kill things with Kidneys. Remember that.)
(I have a 15th level Rogue Pirate who uses Cutlasses, and reminds folks to leave thier bracer slot open for deathstirke bracers, and their ring slot for a ring of blinking.)
Not to mention Dwarf Pirates are cool... (sees a dwarf with a bandana and pegleg tumbling around slashing things!)
No, dwarf pirates are not cool. There was a wanna-be dwarf pirate (complete with parot) in an intro mod here in Zief (think adolescent child saying "I'm gonna be a pirate!"). Said dwarf was later written into an interactive for the sole purpose of... removing him from the campaign... yes, thats it, removal. It's LG canon now, so that dwarf is gone.
No, dwarf pirates are not cool. There was a wanna-be dwarf pirate (complete with parot) in an intro mod here in Zief (think adolescent child saying "I'm gonna be a pirate!"). Said dwarf was later written into an interactive for the sole purpose of... removing him from the campaign... yes, thats it, removal. It's LG canon now, so that dwarf is gone.
Whats wrong with Parrots?
I have a special coming up for me to get a Parrot...
And I'm not a wanna be...
Rogue11/Scarlett Cosair2/Dread Pirate1/legendary Captain1
Even a reasonably costed Vest of Resistance +2 will only get that to +4. Can you find room for Iron Will in there anywhere? Can you move any stat points to Wisdom? (Charisma maybe?)
Make sure to keep an eye on your Will save. The original poster's build has a +2 Will save at level 9. ...
Oh... Will saves are so overrated... ;)
(Says the rogue-mutt with a Will +3 at 13th level...)
Oh... Will saves are so overrated... ;)
(Says the rogue-mutt with a Will +3 at 13th level...)
Agreed. (That sounds about like what I had...) With My vest of Resistance +5my save is around +10 at 15th level.
Agreed. (That sounds about like what I had...) With My vest of Resistance +5my save is around +10 at 15th level.
Yeah... Rog6/Ftr2/Thf-Acr4, and a template with a +1 level adjustment -- not conducive to a high Will save...
The vest certainly helps my PC as well, though I constantly seem to be short on the cash to get it past a +2 enhancement...
While the two-bladed sword would require the EWP feat (and, yes, that's an advantage of the urgosh for a dwarf), the two-bladed sword gives you d8 damage with *both* hands.
That's a feat to gain +1 damage, on average, with your off hand. Most of a rogue's damage will come from sneak attack. For fighters, it's from power attack. The base weapon type won't matter too much in the long run.
Make sure to keep an eye on your Will save. The original poster's build has a +2 Will save at level 9. I've seen an otherwise well-built Fighter at level 12 with a Will Save of +3 and the player agrees that it's a little bit of a problem.
Hopefully, the PC will be part of a team that includes a caster with protection from evil. The saves you mention are only 1 less than a single classed character's poor save for those levels. My sister has a PC that had a will save of either -1 or 0 at level ten. I don't recall her PC running into any major problems.
You also need to accept lower hitpoints, lower BaB, and a ususally not so good fort save.
If you multiclass a bit you can offset a lot of this, but it ussually requires the investment of feats, and loss of Skill points, ususally something that leaves you being less able to do 'what rogues do'.
Its always a tradeoff between skills and effectiveness. Also your damage is contingent on foes and full attacks. Items that let you sneak attack most things (deathstrike bracers) are a must.
In addition, as a roguey type, you need to accept that there will be levels where you will be less effective than otehr fighters. A lot less effective. You need to be able to rely on your skill points and clever tactical play to keep on par.(Thats if you want to maintain rogue skill sets)
A few thoughts on feats/class selections: (From someone with a 15th level TWF rogue)
The double blade is a REALLY bad idea. You don't have the feats and all your damage comes from sneak attack. Even the Urgosh is not practical as a rogue weapon.
Also you want to take advantage of Quickdraw. That leans towards things like kukris, cutlasses, etc. Quickdraw is a VERY useful rogue feat, never underestimate it.
Staggering Strike needs to be taken earlier in the build. Level 15 is too late. (level 12 is a good time)
Additionally, Two-Weapon Pounce is not so great. You may think that it allows you two sneak attacks on the surprise round, but in most cases you want to be tumbling into oppurtune positions and staggering the foe.
Improved Two Weapon fighting is also a really good choice. (greater is not so useful)
The int bonus from the swashbuckler isn't worth it. Only take swashbuckler if you are using it for Full Bab. Its a nice perk. Nothing more. As a TWF you want to HIT not do lots of static damage. MwM is useful to you for the +2 to hit more than anything else.
Deadly Defense can work at higher levels. +3 AC and an extra 1d6 damage for -4 to hit is a good trade off, especially if buffs are being thrown around and you are in a flank.
Never underestimate good old crippling strike. If you can get it, then its fantastic. (Combine with Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement from a freindly caster for extra effectiveness)
You are a Rogue. You have no will save. Protection from evil is your friend.
Telling Blow is only worth it with a high crit weapon (see Kukri) Improved critical has good synergy here, if you can spare the feat. HOWEVER I personally feel that you shouldn't be trying to fight in a situation where you aren't getting your sneak attack. Especially at higher APLs.
You should eventually be greater invis'd or have a ring of blinking/etc to do your Damage, hence telling blow is good, but not actually as useful as you think. How often will you go toe to toe with something that you cannot flank/sneak on the off chance that you may get a crit? Its a personal choice.
Finally: Remember you are not a fighter. You will have tothink outside of the box, know that you have less hitpoints, bollocks fort and will saves (which coincidently are the fun 'save or die' saves) And you need to rely on your party a lot more. At least until you are high enough level to buy all the good items...
If you can use Dungeonscape, you may want to consider making your home region the Domain of Greyhawk (which means you need to play a Greyhawk Ruins scenario before hitting L2), as it allows you (iirc) to choose the Penetrating Strike alternate class feature - this lets you apply half your sneak attack damage against creatures normally immune to sneak attack.
Other thought: Are you wedded to ROGUE for your TWF? Greyhawk Ranger without Track (or, formally, the Trap Expert Ranger alternate class feature from Dungeonscape) is also a possibility for this build. I'm not sure how well it works out in midlevels, but I'm doing the trapfinder/tank ranger (Fighter 2/ Ranger 1 -> Pious Templar) for Greyhawk Ruins. If this is your first LG character, you might as well get it into the restricted-entry story arc...
If you'd like to pick up Staggering Strike earlier than 15 with a build like the one I suggested above, I'd suggest changing weapons to either short sword or the often-overlooked light pick, and then bumping the feats around by removing Telling Blow. But I disagree fully that Two-Weapon Pounce is low-utility–getting two sneak attacks on a charge can often be enough to down mid-sized opponents and move to the next one. And if there's only one opponent, well, you don't need to do much positioning anyway.
Str 12 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 8
1 Rogue Improved initiative
2 Fighter Two weapon fighting
3 Rogue Weapon finesse
4 Fighter Combat expertise Int +1
5 Rogue
6 Rogue weapon focus short sword or kukri
7 Fighter
8 Rogue Dex +1
9 Rogue Deft strike
10 Fighter Defensive expert
11 Fighter
12 Rogue Improved two weapon fighting Dex +1
13 Fighter Battle hardened
14 Rogue
What do you think?
This ends up as
Str 12 Dex 18 Con 16 Int 13 Wis 10 Cha 8
115 HP Init +10 +10 fort +12 ref +4 will
+13/+8/+3 Melee
Balance +8
Disable device +17
Handle animal +9
Hide +14
Move silently +12
Open lock +11
Search +18
Spo +10
Tumble +18
Use magic device +16
Is this total crap or should I just focus on the above build for maximum damage output?
Well, the first thing that comes to mind is to switch TWF and Weapon Finesse - if you are attacking at a net -1, attacking twice doesn't help.
It probably isn't as bad as you think. Having more attacks gives you more opportunies to roll natural 20's. Natural 1's hurt less if you'd have missed any way. :D
This isn't an issue for Rogues (who get most of their damage on a per-attack basis).
It's very rare* for the -2 to hit to lower your average damage with considerable gains against most enemies ...and you don't have to swing the second weapon on those occasions.
* IIRC you have to need an 18 to hit before the penalty (chance of hitting twice being enough to offset the lower chance of hitting at all if it's 17 or 19 ..though if strength is high that might affect things a bit). Lots of AoOs could also have an effect if you have CRef.. but that's pretty rare too
The reason TWF is generally bad is that Power Attack favours 2HF so strongly (you have to have OTWF to even get up to the same PA damage bonus with two weapons).
If I remember correctly, you treat the offhand weapons as light when using OTWF so you're SOL there.
AND, you can drop your Dex a little, in favor of strength and constitution. That's a big deal.
You'll lose two feats overall, but you'll gain track. Furthermore, favored enemy damage really adds up when you're getting 4-5 attacks a round.
If I remember correctly, you treat the offhand weapons as light when using OTWF so you're SOL there.
OTWF considers the off hand weapon to be light *for two weapon fighting purposes* not for every purpose.
OTWF considers the off hand weapon to be light *for two weapon fighting purposes* not for every purpose.
Exactly.
But then my point was that it's not a good route to go anyway ;) [..unless you are willing to abuse the wording of Uncanny Blow and your GMs will let you get away with it]