Here's the build:
Ex-Monk 2/Fighter 2/Barbarian 1/Drunken Master 3
(Yes, I'm a Monk/Barbarian, I don't want to hear your whining... I'm an alcoholic dammit)
Str 22 (+4 Belt)
Dex 16 (+2 Gloves)
Con 17
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 6
Feats:
Dodge [pre-req]
Power Attack
Great Fortitude [pre-req]
Weapon Focus (maul)
Extra Rage* [will get retrained]
Right now, his shtick is basically using his Stagger ability to charge in interesting ways (and tumble in the process) with a considerably good movement speed and slam things with his +2 Flaming Maul (Undermountain item). He can grapple quite well, and I usually have time to down two bottles of beer before a combat to gain an additional +4 Str (making it a 30 when raging). He wears +1 Mithral Fullplate. Dodge and Swaying Waist help me get my AC to a decent number where I can actually tank things.
Now, I intend to retrain Extra Rage as I hit 8th due to the fact that i can use that silly "One More Time" card. I also get a feat at 9th (I have a stack of slot 0 ARs I have to fill out). Here are my options:
1. Sun School and Titan Fighting - Both totally standalone. Titan Fighting usually results in more AC and I already have Dodge. Flash of Sunset is just cool - I have one Anklet of Translocation and can buy another, and I have a Transposer Cloak. I figured using that feat in conjunction with these various swift action teleportation items would be kind of fun (especially since I hit oh-so-much harder than your average Monk). That's more than two swift action teleports a combat which should be enough to end the fight (especially if I can full-attack after it, or teleport next to something and grapple it, then get a full round to pin it and whatnot).
2. Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper - I've never used these feats in LG but I don't deny their usefulness. My strength gets really high and I have Armbands of Might. Combine this with the fact that I can almost always charge things (and do so quite easily), it makes this combination quite deadly and interesting, though I have to admit not as unique as Sun School.
3. Mobility and Elusive Target - Elusive Target is just good, there's no arguing that. I'm less excited about this option, but it's there nonetheless.
To answer some obvious questions that might come up - I intend to play this character as I play msot of the tanks I make - high damage and a decent AC (if not really high).
Feedback appreciated!
That card might get eaten in the first day or so and then you're going to be picking your moments to Rage or not if you play Greyhawk Ruins rather than raging automatically.
Sun School Anklet is interesting, but again, Greyhawk Ruins, you ought to get to around 12th/13th level - is giving up Boots of Speed worth it?
I think I'd go for Titan Fighting and Sun School in combo.
I'm looking for some advice! I play an 8th level Drunken Master as an alternate PC (possibly a Greyhawk Ruins PC if that ever gets released).
....
Extra Rage* [will get retrained]
I think you might want to reconsider that if you think you're going to play Greyhawk Ruins - ADPs often don't follow the usual rules - it isn't hard to fight 5-12 combats in a day, especially in a dungeon crawl context.
That card might get eaten in the first day or so and then you're going to be picking your moments to Rage or not if you play Greyhawk Ruins rather than raging automatically.
Sun School Anklet is interesting, but again, Greyhawk Ruins, you ought to get to around 12th/13th level - is giving up Boots of Speed worth it?
I think I'd go for Titan Fighting and Sun School in combo.
Wow good point. I forgot that those cards are 1/adventure, not 1/day. With that thought, I'll stick with Extra Rage. So I guess what it boils down to is.. which option is better? Titan Fighting or Sun School? I know Titan Fighting will come up more often, but Sun School seems to be so much more stylish and less frequently used.
Wow good point. I forgot that those cards are 1/adventure, not 1/day. With that thought, I'll stick with Extra Rage. So I guess what it boils down to is.. which option is better? Titan Fighting or Sun School? I know Titan Fighting will come up more often, but Sun School seems to be so much more stylish and less frequently used.
Why not just retrain the weapon focus (maul) instead of the extra rage? Also note that you can't actually use your anklets or cloak while raging as they both are command word activated, so Sun School is probably not worth it for you...
Why not just retrain the weapon focus (maul) instead of the extra rage? Also note that you can't actually use your anklets or cloak while raging as they both are command word activated, so Sun School is probably not worth it for you...
Good point. I guess I won't be buying the cloak of the other anklet and I won't be taking Sun School. Thanks for pointing that one out!
How do you 'draw' the tankards to drink 2 bottles in one round and still be holding your Maul? As you treat the tankards as weapons, that might be an argument for Quickdraw. Draw two tankards and drain them, then draw a ladder as a free action. Next round, drop the ladder and draw the Maul.
Are you planning to take Exotic Weapon Master as you still need EWP: Maul if you're going to do that...that would seem to be an obvious choice, especially with your strength. If you're not, that WF: Maul seems to be prime retrain bait.
How do you 'draw' the tankards to drink 2 bottles in one round and still be holding your Maul? As you treat the tankards as weapons, that might be an argument for Quickdraw. Draw two tankards and drain them, then draw a ladder as a free action. Next round, drop the ladder and draw the Maul.
Actually, EWM doesn't stipulate that you need Proficiency and Focus in the SAME weapon. Since I have the Weapon Familiarity with the waraxe and Focus in the maul, I qualify already (the class states that weapon familiarity qualifies you for the proficiency requirement).
Quickdraw is a good idea actually. I typically "carry" the maul in one hand and a large "24 oz" tankard of ale in the other. No DM has ever had a problem with this. I don't carry ladders... not yet at least! I'll consider Quickdraw anyway though, just to make thigns simpler, but I'm starting to lean towards keeping my feats as they are, and taking Titan Fighting at 9.
Actually, EWM doesn't stipulate that you need Proficiency and Focus in the SAME weapon. Since I have the Weapon Familiarity with the waraxe and Focus in the maul, I qualify already (the class states that weapon familiarity qualifies you for the proficiency requirement).
I don't think EWM is meant to be read quite so literally, but I don't think doing so particularly helps you.
It does stipulate that you need proficiency and focus in an exotic weapon. and the stunts only work for exotic weapons...and you're wielding it as a martial weapon.
i.e. you wouldn't be able to use the stunts because you're not treating a maul as an exotic weapon when you use it...
a large "24 oz" tankard of ale in the other.
That's roughly the standard size according the Drunken Master PrC of the amount of ale necessary. They need a large tankard of ale or a bottle of wine - you need to have about the same amount of alcohol. In any case, you'd need 2 move actions to drink the supersized large tankard, though not having to draw the maul helps out a lot.
Actually, EWM doesn't stipulate that you need Proficiency and Focus in the SAME weapon. Since I have the Weapon Familiarity with the waraxe and Focus in the maul, I qualify already (the class states that weapon familiarity qualifies you for the proficiency requirement).
EWM says you need Weapon Focus in an exotic weapon. To have Weapon Focus in an weapon, you need to have proficiency in that weapon. You have proficiency in maul as a martial weapon, and gain the benefit of WF when using it two handed. You do not have proficiency in maul as an exotic weapon; if weilding one handed, you would be at -4 for not proficiency, and the WF wouldn't apply. Since you do not have Weapon Focus in an exotic weapon with which you are proficient, you don't qualify for Exotic Weapon Master (edit: original brain-o-ed as Drunken Master).
David
EWM says you need Weapon Focus in an exotic weapon. To have Weapon Focus in an weapon, you need to have proficiency in that weapon. You have proficiency in maul as a martial weapon, and gain the benefit of WF when using it two handed. You do not have proficiency in maul as an exotic weapon; if weilding one handed, you would be at -4 for not proficiency, and the WF wouldn't apply. Since you do not have Weapon Focus in an exotic weapon with which you are proficient, you don't qualify for Drunken Master.
David
I think you mean Exotic Weapon Master at the end of your post there...
I think you mean Exotic Weapon Master at the end of your post there...
Yeah. I realized it about 10 minutes later while in the car. Thanks for the catch, though.
David
I don't think EWM is meant to be read quite so literally, but I don't think doing so particularly helps you.
It does stipulate that you need proficiency and focus in an exotic weapon. and the stunts only work for exotic weapons...and you're wielding it as a martial weapon.
i.e. you wouldn't be able to use the stunts because you're not treating a maul as an exotic weapon when you use it...
Yeah, but uncanny blow requires you to wield the weapon two-handed anyway, and gives the explicit example of a bastard sword, which is a martial weapon when wielded two-handed... I'm not sure this is a valid line of reasoning.
Howie may have a point re not qualifying for the class though (I haven't read the feats and PrC in question closely enough to comment).
Yeah, but uncanny blow requires you to wield the weapon two-handed anyway, and gives the explicit example of a bastard sword, which is a martial weapon when wielded two-handed... I'm not sure this is a valid line of reasoning.
Actually, that's not quite true...
A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon
You have the choice of using it as an exotic or as a martial weapon when swinging it two-handed. Most of the time, this is completely irrelevant, but Exotic Weapon Master is the exception(in the context of taking the PrC literally)
Actually, that's not quite true...
You have the choice of using it as an exotic or as a martial weapon when swinging it two-handed. Most of the time, this is completely irrelevant, but Exotic Weapon Master is the exception(in the context of taking the PrC literally)
Whether you use it as a martial or exotic weapon, the fact remains that the weapon is an exotic weapon, and is listed as such.
Whether you use it as a martial or exotic weapon, the fact remains that the weapon is an exotic weapon, and is listed as such.
I think you're appealing to intent...
It is listed as a martial or exotic weapon depending on conditions of use and feats - if you use it in martial fashion, you don't have to worry about non-proficiency. Just as some weapons are slashing or piercing. Just because a Halberd is piercing, doesn't mean you automatically bypass piercing DR. You have to choose to use piercing over slashing. You have to choose to use it as exotic instead of martial.
The way you're using it, it is listed by RAW as a martial weapon and you're using it by RAW as a martial weapon. You could choose to use as an exotic weapon, but then you're taking a -4 penalty to attacks for non-proficiency and you then can't use your weapon focus.
Which again means you can't use your stunts.
I think you're appealing to intent...
It is listed as a martial or exotic weapon depending on conditions of use and feats - if you use it in martial fashion, you don't have to worry about non-proficiency. Just as some weapons are slashing or piercing. Just because a Halberd is piercing, doesn't mean you automatically bypass piercing DR. You have to choose to use piercing over slashing. You have to choose to use it as exotic instead of martial.
The way you're using it, it is listed by RAW as a martial weapon and you're using it by RAW as a martial weapon. You could choose to use as an exotic weapon, but then you're taking a -4 penalty to attacks for non-proficiency and you then can't use your weapon focus.
Which again means you can't use your stunts.
This is somewhat of a thread hijack, but I disagree. Exotic Weapon Master requries that you have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (any exotic weapon) and Weapon Focus (any exotic weapon). Complete Warrior lists the maul under Table 4-6: New Exotic Weapons. Therefore, the weapon is an exotic weapon. Now, the under the weapon description, the text states "a character can use a maul two-handed as a martial weapon." However, regardless of how I use it, the fact remains the same that the maul is an exotic weapon, as it is listed in Complete Warrior.
You can argue it all you'd like (though preferably not in this thread), and can question whether or not this is really the intent, but it's quite explicit. I will not take the Feat, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (maul), and I will take one level in the Exotic Weapon Master prestige class, and I will take advantage of the Uncanny Blow ability and there is nothing that anyone can really say about it. I have a PC that currently does this and I've never had an issue with a judge. If for some reason, some jerk of a judge gives me a hard time because he can't get over his ego, I'll simply get up and play with someone else.
I have a PC that currently does this and I've never had an issue with a judge. If for some reason, some jerk of a judge gives me a hard time because he can't get over his ego, I'll simply get up and play with someone else.
In our area, we had someone who has been playing a character with 2 different shield bonuses, using a weapon two-handed, and he had managed to get to 8th level with many different DMs(conventions, game days, individual groups, even different coasts) and not a single DM questioned him as to how he was getting a relatively high AC and power attacking two-handed.
It was only when he got to our group that he got called out because someone finally asked him how he was getting his AC. He had a heavy shield +1, a buckler +1, fullplate +1, and was attacking with a greatsword.
Which is to say - if this guy could get away with what he was doing, there's no way you're getting caught unless you make a point of telling each DM that you're doing something that others consider illegal, but that you don't think it is. And I really don't think you're doing that...
Don't get me wrong, the rules exploitation Dave is using is Very Cheesy. [Dave - I'm shocked, shocked I say.] However, he is correct - EwM does not say you need to take EwProf. and WF with the same weapon. It should, but it doesn't. Since it doesn't, he is fine.
Daren
[snip]
Which is to say - if this guy could get away with what he was doing, there's no way you're getting caught unless you make a point of telling each DM that you're doing something that others consider illegal, but that you don't think it is. And I really don't think you're doing that...
Others = at least 4 people in this thread have expressed some sort of reservation about the legality of what Dave is doing. Only you have come out and said you think it is perfectly legal. Not to mention, he brought up judges he's played with, implying that others agree with him despite it being likely that the majority of them had no idea he did it or that it could be illegal.
Andy
Who are these "others?" You, Andy? I don't think Dave is required to point out a rules disagreement he's had with a random person on the LG boards to LG DMs.
Don't get me wrong, the rules exploitation Dave is using is Very Cheesy. [Dave - I'm shocked, shocked I say.] However, he is correct - EwM does not say you need to take EwProf. and WF with the same weapon. It should, but it doesn't. Since it doesn't, he is fine.
Daren
That's nothing - there was someone at NG a few weeks ago who thought he could have "alterantive feats." That is, he had Leadership/Improved Crit listed. Improved Crit (which he also didn't qualify for - BAB less than 8) was for when he didn't get to use his cohort! LOL
I'm wondering who this is (with the buckler and shield). Have to keep a sharper eye out.
Daren
Just to point out Daren, you've been Senior DM while dual-shield greatsword wielder was at your games...you've played at the same table with him while he was doing this. You may have even DM'd him. Do you think he should have said something to the DMs or the fact that he thought it was legal made it okay?
[snip]
Andy
[Sorry for the continued thread hijack, Dave]
That's nothing - there was someone at NG a few weeks ago who thought he could have "alterantive feats." That is, he had Leadership/Improved Crit listed. Improved Crit (which he also didn't qualify for - BAB less than 8) was for when he didn't get to use his cohort! LOL
I'm wondering who this is (with the buckler and shield). Have to keep a sharper eye out.
Daren
Wow. I'm insulted that my "interpretation" of an explicit class pre-requisite is being compared to someone getting bonuses from multiple shields and to someone that chooses which feats he has depending on his party composition (whether or not he can play with his cohort).
I'll tell you guys what... when I get access to some worthwhile enhancements, I'll retrain the WF (maul), to WF (dwarven waraxe) and buy myself a dwarven waraxe and ditch this stupid Undermountain maul. But until then... let's hope I don't have to play at Andy's table (not that I have in the past).
And yes, I have been questioned by DMs before. Despite my strong understanding of the rules and mechanics, I have made mistakes in the past, and I have made rules interpretations that others disagreed with in the past (I was actually one of the first to help someone build a PC that used Uncanny Blow while dual-weilding bastard swords to get double PA with each hand back in Year 4 or 5). I am now of the opinion that is neither the intent nor the letter of the rule, despite its lack of clarity.
Wow. I'm insulted that my "interpretation" of an explicit class pre-requisite is being compared to someone getting bonuses from multiple shields and to someone that chooses which feats he has depending on his party composition (whether or not he can play with his cohort).
I'll tell you guys what... when I get access to some worthwhile enhancements, I'll retrain the WF (maul), to WF (dwarven waraxe) and buy myself a dwarven waraxe and ditch this stupid Undermountain maul. But until then... let's hope I don't have to play at Andy's table (not that I have in the past).
And yes, I have been questioned by DMs before. Despite my strong understanding of the rules and mechanics, I have made mistakes in the past, and I have made rules interpretations that others disagreed with in the past (I was actually one of the first to help someone build a PC that used Uncanny Blow while dual-weilding bastard swords to get double PA with each hand back in Year 4 or 5). I am now of the opinion that is neither the intent nor the letter of the rule, despite its lack of clarity.
Dkay, I think RAW written, I as a DM would not contend your decision.
However, I as a person will give you dirty looks for utlising badly written text to go against intent of the PrC/Ability.
There are more than enough legal ways to make your character effective without utilising badly written RAW. I hope that you do retrain to the Dwarven Waraxe, as whilst no less legal, it is however demonstrating that you are using the class for the intent that it was created for.
Just like Pcs that use fire resist 1 for immunity to lava, they know its against RAW< and to do otherwise ruins the game. As you yourself have demonstrated many times, the rules exist to qualify intent, no the other way around.
I applaud your decision to switch to the Waraxe.
But I as a judge wouldn't argue with you. However I would lose some of the respect I have had for you if you used it on me as a DM.
I would suggest Mobility:
Closely followed by Elusive Target and Titan Fighting.
Thats my serious suggestion.
That said: Flash of Sunset is pretty cool...
Dkay, I think RAW written, I as a DM would not contend your decision.
However, I as a person will give you dirty looks for utlising badly written text to go against intent of the PrC/Ability.
There are more than enough legal ways to make your character effective without utilising badly written RAW. I hope that you do retrain to the Dwarven Waraxe, as whilst no less legal, it is however demonstrating that you are using the class for the intent that it was created for.
Just like Pcs that use fire resist 1 for immunity to lava, they know its against RAW< and to do otherwise ruins the game. As you yourself have demonstrated many times, the rules exist to qualify intent, no the other way around.
I applaud your decision to switch to the Waraxe.
But I as a judge wouldn't argue with you. However I would lose some of the respect I have had for you if you used it on me as a DM.
I just don't see it being as big a deal as you and Daren have made it out to be. Whether I use a maul or a waraxe, the damage is identical, as is the way in which I use the weapon. This surprises me. I also see a big discrepancy between this and the immunity to lava cheese which NO DM would allow, regardless of how "clear" it is in the DMG.
However, the respect of good gamers is far more important to me than whether or not some jokers disagree with the way I interpret a rule - so by the time I make it to Exotic Weapon Master at 10th level, I will not have Weapon Focus (maul) and will instead have Weapon Focus (dwarven waraxe). That is a promise.
(hopefully I'll have found aaccess to a worthwhile material to craft the damn thing from).
Now, in response to the Mobility suggestion, here is why I don't think it makes sense any longer... I intend to take Fighter 3 and Fighter 4 at 11 and 12 (if I ever get that high) and take Melee Weapon Mastery at 12. I'll never hit 15th. Therefore, I have room for one feat. Since I can already Tumble, Mobility isn't so helpful. I think Titan Fighting will have to be the way to go.
If you have access to Gnome Stoneblessed (out there) Then losing 1 BAB for +2 con, and +4 Dodge bonus to AC might be worth it.
Its a bit silly and not completely optimal, but +8 dodge AC with Titan fighting is nothing to be laughed at.
However the sensible thing to do Is Titan Fighting. Elusive Target is always good, but MWM is much more consitently useful.
A feat I recommend for drunken masters is the throw anything feat from CW. Combined this with the improvised weapon proficiency and you can literal throw anything you can lift. bottles, stools, halflings, or whatever you are fighting if you can beat it in a grapple.
Thats not how the feat works.
read the difference between throw anything the feat, and REALLY throw anything the extroardinary ability of the hulking hurler.
Throw anything allows you to toss weapons, not random objects.
Wes
As far as I can tell, this is a old argument, as old as the uncanny blow argument. I believe Nobody is proficient with improvized weapons, drunken masters just get less of a penalty. I would point you back to a thread, but I wasn't posting when it was being talked about, so I don't know which one it is. Someone else on this board propably can point you exactly to it.
Wes
What he said.