Gendsen Silentsteel
Str 17 (bumped)/Dex 12/ Con 14/Int 14/Wis12/Cha 6
Deity: Gendwar Argrim
1/ Ranger 1 (Trap Expert) WF: Dwarven Waraxe
2/ Fighter 1 Power Attack
3/ Fighter 2 Combat Expertise, True Believer
4/ Ranger 2 (TWF, never on since I wear full plate*)
I was intending to go dervish with a mithral breastplate (assuming access - I'm not ambitious about what access I'll see, neh?) because dervish dancing waraxe sounds funny... unfortunately, the needs of the parties I've seen pushed me toward cork/frontline instead, and so... The build above. Current equipment of note: MW steel full plate with MW spikes, MW waraxe, guisarme, cold iron heavy flail, silver pick. (golfbag from level 1, with minor upgrades)
Obviously I'm thinking Pious Templar at 6... The question is are there any obvious flaws with this plan?
5/ Ranger 3 - Endurance, retrain Combat Expertise to Improved Bull Rush
6/ Pious Templar 1 - Shock Trooper
7/ Pious Templar 2
8/ Pious Templar 3 Bump Str, WS: Dwarven Waraxe
9/ Pious Templar 4 MWM: Slashing
10/ Ranger 4 (for the spells and flank buddy)
11/ EWM 1: Uncanny Blow
12/ Deepwarden 1: +Wis, (Extra Smiting?) (Improved Sunder)
13/ Deepwarden 2
14/ Deepwarden 3 or PT5
15/ Deepwarden 4 or PT6 (No idea on this feat, or Combat Brute if IS at 12)
I'm most uncertain about the feats, levels 14 and 15, and whether he'll make it to high level play (though adaptables make that more likely).
So, my greyhawk ruins PC got derailed from his original plan by having not one, not two, but three people with trapfinding show up in the variable group that I play in weekly. Oi. Two second or third rank rogue/stuff builds.... and me.
Gendsen Silentsteel
Str 17 (bumped)/Dex 12/ Con 14/Int 14/Wis12/Cha 6
Deity: Gendwar Argrim
1/ Ranger 1 (Trap Expert) WF: Dwarven Waraxe
2/ Fighter 1 Power Attack
3/ Fighter 2 Combat Expertise, True Believer
4/ Ranger 2 (TWF, never on since I wear full plate*)
I was intending to go dervish with a mithral breastplate (assuming access - I'm not ambitious about what access I'll see, neh?) because dervish dancing waraxe sounds funny... unfortunately, the needs of the parties I've seen pushed me toward cork/frontline instead, and so... The build above. Current equipment of note: MW steel full plate with MW spikes, MW waraxe, guisarme, cold iron heavy flail, silver pick. (golfbag from level 1, with minor upgrades)
Obviously I'm thinking Pious Templar at 6... The question is are there any obvious flaws with this plan?
5/ Ranger 3 - Endurance, retrain Combat Expertise to Improved Bull Rush
6/ Pious Templar 1 - Shock Trooper
7/ Pious Templar 2
8/ Pious Templar 3 Bump Str, WS: Dwarven Waraxe
9/ Pious Templar 4 MWM: Slashing
10/ Ranger 4 (for the spells and flank buddy)
11/ EWM 1: Uncanny Blow
12/ Deepwarden 1: +Wis, (Extra Smiting?) (Improved Sunder)
13/ Deepwarden 2
14/ Deepwarden 3 or PT5
15/ Deepwarden 4 or PT6 (No idea on this feat, or Combat Brute if IS at 12)
I'm most uncertain about the feats, levels 14 and 15, and whether he'll make it to high level play (though adaptables make that more likely).
It's a very solid plan. Don't forget that you get a bonus feat from Pious Templar 4. Therefore, you get two feats at 9. One very cool option might be to retrain into Dungeon Crasher now and then just take Improved Bull Rush at 6th and Shock Trooper at 9th (or something like that - you can work out the retraining plan). Sorry, but I'm on a total "random combat maneuver to keep things fun" kick.
I see no benefit to continuing along the Deepwarden path after 2. In fact, it gives you very little benefit apart from just being a VERY solid full BAB class with good saves, good skills and good HD. You might as well continue as a Pious Templar.
I was intending to go dervish with a mithral breastplate (assuming access - I'm not ambitious about what access I'll see, neh?) because dervish dancing waraxe sounds funny... unfortunately, the needs of the parties I've seen pushed me toward cork/frontline instead, and so...
I'm a little unclear why you think that a Dervish can't be a cork? They do lots of damage, they get a d10 for hit points, and in combo with Deepwarden+Combat Expertise, you've got the AC problem solved. Yes, many Dervishes head for the hills after they make their full attack, but you don't have to do that.
A Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Deepwarden 2/EWM 1/Dervish 7 ought to be more than sufficient. And as Dervish is a 4 skill points per level, you can retrain vital skills to keep them maxxed.
I'm a little unclear why you think that a Dervish can't be a cork? They do lots of damage, they get a d10 for hit points, and in combo with Deepwarden+Combat Expertise, you've got the AC problem solved. Yes, many Dervishes head for the hills after they make their full attack, but you don't have to do that.
A Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Deepwarden 2/EWM 1/Dervish 7 ought to be more than sufficient. And as Dervish is a 4 skill points per level, you can retrain vital skills to keep them maxxed.
It was mostly the fact that at 4, bumping Dex would've been needed, to allow Dodge and Mobility into the build, which isn't there now. Skill distribution is set up for PT now (cross class skill points heavily invested into Knowledge(religion), and need to keep search and disable device up for my skill focus, as well as spot/listen when possible).
It was mostly the fact that at 4, bumping Dex would've been needed, to allow Dodge and Mobility into the build, which isn't there now. Skill distribution is set up for PT now (cross class skill points heavily invested into Knowledge(religion), and need to keep search and disable device up for my skill focus, as well as spot/listen when possible).
I think Deepwarden 4(if you get that high) is reasonably competitive with Pious Templar 6. Better hit points, much better skill list/skill points, and Uncanny Dodge compared with an extra smite and hard to use 3rd level spell(s).
Something to consider, if you have a lot of TUs left, is to pick up CWI - that'll let you craft some useful items - Ranger 4 gives you a caster level of 2 - that's almost auto-activate 2nd level scrolls, which means you can craft a Con Amulet with it. And Paladin spells give you Bull's Strength for a Belt.
I think Deepwarden 4(if you get that high) is reasonably competitive with Pious Templar 6. Better hit points, much better skill list/skill points, and Uncanny Dodge compared with an extra smite and hard to use 3rd level spell(s).
Something to consider, if you have a lot of TUs left, is to pick up CWI - that'll let you craft some useful items - Ranger 4 gives you a caster level of 2 - that's almost auto-activate 2nd level scrolls, which means you can craft a Con Amulet with it. And Paladin spells give you Bull's Strength for a Belt.
Weapon of the deity seems like a lovely thing to have in my arsenal, as does earth hammer... what difficulty are you seeing in using the third level spells? I assume Pious Templar is 1:1 caster level, not seeing anything in a quick read to suggest otherwise.
Jon
Weapon of the deity seems like a lovely thing to have in my arsenal, as does earth hammer... what difficulty are you seeing in using the third level spells? I assume Pious Templar is 1:1 caster level, not seeing anything in a quick read to suggest otherwise.
Jon
Your 13 Wisdom, which means you can't actually cast a 3rd level spell until 15th unless you have a +4 Wis item...not to mention, you're putting a stat boost into Wisdom to make that happen, rather than Str and hope to find a book.
Your 13 Wisdom, which means you can't actually cast a 3rd level spell until 15th unless you have a +4 Wis item...not to mention, you're putting a stat boost into Wisdom to make that happen, rather than Str and hope to find a book.
Two things. First, I don't see how he wouldn't be able to cast 3rd level PT spells at 13th level (PT 6 if he chooses to go that way). Earth Hammer is a pretty sweet spell. Righteous Fury is even better if one can find access (I know of a certain interactive... ;)) Then again, I'm running on low sleep and don't have the book on me, so I might be mistaken.
Second, I half-agree, Andy. The more solid, long-term investment choice is to bump Str and wait for access to a book and eventually buy it (long after you've made your other milk, bread and eggs purchases and after you've upgraded the Belt to +6). Hell, I've done it 3 times now in LG. However, why kid ourselves? This character isn't a long-term investment. John will NEVER get to play him enough to even come close to that - especially when he's not his main PC.
Okay, three things. I lied. John, I would really suggest choosing the path that gives you more, cooler options, because that is what's going to make the character more fun to play. Take my word on that, as I speak from experience. Yes, selecting the classic path of Full BAB, high Str, Melee Weapon Mastery, Uncanny Blow will always net a damage powerhouse. There's no question. Is it more fun than a fighter that deals nearly as much damage but has some fun combat options or some interesting spellcasting options? Absolutely not. Therefore, consider going as high as you can in PT, casting those spells, and maybe take Craft Wondrous to help me your life a bit easier.
Any of the paths discussed so far are good options though, and Andy definitely knows what he's talking about - even if he hasn't played your typical hulk smash PC at high levels yet.
Second, I half-agree, Andy. The more solid, long-term investment choice is to bump Str and wait for access to a book and eventually buy it (long after you've made your other milk, bread and eggs purchases and after you've upgraded the Belt to +6). Hell, I've done it 3 times now in LG. However, why kid ourselves? This character isn't a long-term investment. John will NEVER get to play him enough to even come close to that - especially when he's not his main PC.
But the problem there is if he's going to get PT 3 spells, it will happen at the point where thinking about a book is a reality. And if he's playing him in Expedition to Greyhawk Ruins, 12th level is reasonably likely.
Any of the paths discussed so far are good options though, and Andy definitely knows what he's talking about - even if he hasn't played your typical hulk smash PC at high levels yet.
I think there are Nightwalkers who'd disagree with you ;)
Ishkara did a lot more damage to them than they did back to her. Enough so that they focused in on her standing next to them instead of our fast moving Dervish that was really killing them or trying to go after our weakened casters.
My character might not be typical, but she's does a pretty good hulk smash routine, especially outside of Bissel(most great Enlightened Fist spells are Necromancy and she can cast Ray spells as touch spells now...) - she can break the 200 hp damage in a round barrier to a single target at 14th with no outside buffing or crits. Can't do it all day long, but...
But the problem there is if he's going to get PT 3 spells, it will happen at the point where thinking about a book is a reality. And if he's playing him in Expedition to Greyhawk Ruins, 12th level is reasonably likely.
You don't even start thinking about a book until like 14th level at the earliest. You've got your milk/bread/eggs purchases like your +1 holy adamantine weapon (or whatever your flavor is), +1 mithral fullplate, your boots of speed, your +1 animated mithral heavy shield, your belt of giant strength +4, your vest/cloak of resistance +3 at the least, armbands of might, a couple of +2 stat boost items (Amulet of Health +2?), various support items to make the character work better (like POPs in Jon's case). After that, you eventually pick up a Belt of Giant Strength +6 upgrade. By the time you're actually ready to throw down 27.5k for a +1 Manual, you're halfway through 14th if not 15th, and you're considering whether or not a Pale Green Ioun Stone wouldn't actually be a better purchase (which it is).
This is a sad reality about playing a melee PC in 3.5, particularly in LG. I can't wait until 4th ed where you can afford to get more creative with item purchases and still be optimized (theoretically). At least that's what they're saying...
Now, can you buy random items with a melee PC and still be good? Absolutely. Will you be top-notch? No sir, you will not.
You don't even start thinking about a book until like 14th level at the earliest.
Right. But I think that's the problem for him and PT spells - if he's going PT spells, he should be going for as many PT levels as he can get, with the exception of 1 EWM level. Then he gets 3rd level spells going precisely at 12th level, when he has 6 levels of Pious Templar and a 13 Wisdom.
His current plan means he isn't particularly likely to get 3rd level spells until 13th at the bare minimum. 15th if he gets the cheese that is Deepwarden 2. And presuming he has the prereqs for Deepwarden already, that level 12 is going to be a hard choice - get +1 damage to smite or +2 Fort/Will, Track, and an extra hit point.
And given that he has something of a skill base, I think Deepwarden 2/Ranger 1 is a better route for him to maintain those skills - rather than dream about PT 3 spells or a Str Book.
I think there are Nightwalkers who'd disagree with you ;)
Ishkara did a lot more damage to them than they did back to her. Enough so that they focused in on her standing next to them instead of our fast moving Dervish that was really killing them or trying to go after our weakened casters.
Liantir (the above-mentioned fast-moving dervish) enjoyed playing with Ishkara. It's nice to have an ally who does enough damage to draw the monsters' attention while still being very difficult for them to hit - it means he doesn't have to feel guilty about dancing away and leaving the other meleer to soak up all the full attacks (and/or DC 38 Fort saves) ;)
That said, Andy, I think Dave was saying that you don't play a typical hulk smash character in the sense he mentioned in his post - full BAB, high Str, Melee Weapon Mastery - Ish is one of those characters who has other options besides just "I full attack it for 300 damage". I think his point was that they are generally more fun, despite dealing slightly less damage ;)
she can break the 200 hp damage in a round barrier to a single target at 14th with no outside buffing or crits..
This is a barrier?
-James
This is a barrier?
-James
It most certainly is not. D&D isn't a "pee"ing contest. However, a true hulk smash PC will crack 200 damage per round consistently, oftentimes passing 300.
And Tracy pointed exactly what I was going to - I didn't mean to suggest "Ishkara" wasn't effective or didn't deal a lot of damage... she just isn't your stereotypical BDF PC.
~Dave
It most certainly is not. D&D isn't a "pee"ing contest. However, a true hulk smash PC will crack 200 damage per round consistently, oftentimes passing 300.
And Tracy pointed exactly what I was going to - I didn't mean to suggest "Ishkara" wasn't effective or didn't deal a lot of damage... she just isn't your stereotypical BDF PC.
~Dave
Something of a joke - I blame the internet for its failure. I wasn't thinking that you implied that at all - I was more just pointing out that my character often adopts the role of BDF for a party.
And that's what I was referring to James - true hulk smash characters break 200 hp of damage per round at high APL, although, they usually need outside buffs to pull it off.
My character likes outside buffs, but they don't really adjust her damage routine as she doesn't have Power Attack. They do adjust how long she can pull of her hulk smash imitation, though as she won't have to spend spell slots on GMW as an example.
Andy
Something of a joke - I blame the internet for its failure. I wasn't thinking that you implied that at all - I was more just pointing out that my character often adopts the role of BDF for a party.
And that's what I was referring to James - true hulk smash characters break 200 hp of damage per round at high APL, although, they usually need outside buffs to pull it off.
My character likes outside buffs, but they don't really adjust her damage routine as she doesn't have Power Attack. They do adjust how long she can pull of her hulk smash imitation, though as she won't have to spend spell slots on GMW as an example.
Andy
Actually, most well built true "hulk smash" PCs, as I like to call them, crack over 300 damage per round on a regular basis with no outside buffs apart from Heroes' Feast and GMW (both completely standard). They can also do so consistentently (every round, for at least three combats a day).
~Dave
Actually, most well built true "hulk smash" PCs, as I like to call them, crack over 300 damage per round on a regular basis with no outside buffs apart from Heroes' Feast and GMW (both completely standard). They can also do so consistentently (every round, for at least three combats a day).
I'm trying to remember if Liantir (halfway through L14) has ever gotten both Heroes' Feast and GMW. I don't think he has. That said, when the nice wizards are handing out Superior Resistance + Mindblank + Fires of Purity in addition to the GMW, I can't really complain ;) (he had a 400pt round against noncrittables, which isn't bad given he has a 15-20 crit range and so expects to do about 30% extra vs crittables) That said, buffs will hopefully be more common when he takes Leadership and can bring his own caster cohort to the table.
EDIT: My mistake, he has in fact had both Heroes' Feast and +3 GMW on one occasion, in Part 3 of Demonweb Pits. More recently his tables have had a noticeable lack of L11+ clerics
I'm trying to remember if Liantir (halfway through L14) has ever gotten both Heroes' Feast and GMW.
More recently his tables have had a noticeable lack of L11+ clerics
That's mostly an issue of lack of clerics at those tables. That can happen in certain locales in specific level ranges at times. Other table compositions can also fall askew at times and become a local trend (i.e. many places can find themselves with a lack of rogues).
-James
That's mostly an issue of lack of clerics at those tables. That can happen in certain locales in specific level ranges at times. Other table compositions can also fall askew at times and become a local trend (i.e. many places can find themselves with a lack of rogues).
-James
Up until very recently the issue was the lack of full casters at his tables... the table he plays with most regularly has a mystic theurge as the primary caster (which means no GMWs OR Heroes' Feast, at her current level - she can do one +3 GMW per mod using Arcane Influx, but it goes to the rogue who needs it to sneak attack undead). His Demonweb table had two people with significant wizard levels, but both were multiclassed into rogue or fighter (and the cleric was a cohort). At his latest convention though I got to play with an at-APL wizard at almost every table, which was very nice. I have a L15 cleric myself, and I know there are others in the region, they just tend to end up at different tables to me (and obviously, when I'm playing my dervish I'm not playing my cleric).
Up until very recently the issue was the lack of full casters at his tables... the table he plays with most regularly has a mystic theurge as the primary caster (which means no GMWs OR Heroes' Feast, at her current level - she can do one +3 GMW per mod using Arcane Influx, but it goes to the rogue who needs it to sneak attack undead). His Demonweb table had two people with significant wizard levels, but both were multiclassed into rogue or fighter (and the cleric was a cohort). At his latest convention though I got to play with an at-APL wizard at almost every table, which was very nice. I have a L15 cleric myself, and I know there are others in the region, they just tend to end up at different tables to me (and obviously, when I'm playing my dervish I'm not playing my cleric).
I've yet to run into this horde of clerics supposedly living in Greyhawk. Not to mention, I've had multiple tables where we were lucky to have a caster at the table, let alone two of them. Most of the time, it is someone providing a cohort for a cleric, which makes the 2 caster level loss really expensive for GMW/Heroes Feast.
This probably explains a little of the difference in Dave and my builds - my Monk Caster is constantly making adjustments assuming there won't be support, but how to take advantage of it if there is - as an example, she's crafted both Bracers of Armor +6 and Greatreach Bracers. If someone can provide GMA, she'll pull out the Greatreach Bracers for herself and take AoOs. If no one can, she'll hand the Greatreach Bracers to someone else.
How my build would look if I could constantly guarantee GMA and GMW +5 is very different than it is now.
And now that we're at APL 12-14 tables, we're getting people(who don't play clerics) to come out of the woodwork, knocking aside our cohorts...
I haven't sat down at a table where there weren't tons of all-day buffs being cast each morning at APL 12+ in a long time and I hope I don't have to for the remainder of 3.5 and LG. It's my expectation that at those APLs, every PC that uses a weapon receives a GMW at the expense of other spells casters may be able to cast, and at least one or two front-liners get a MV (or 2 if they have animated shields) at a bare minimum. Heroes' Feast should just go unspoken. This is regardless of whether or not I am a player of said buff-receivers. If PCs capable of providing these buffs aren't available at the table, that's a different story!
With my 15th level arcane caster, I blow through almost half my prepared spells, 10 POP 1s, 4 POP 2s, 2 POP 3s, and 4 lesser rods of extend spell (yes 4) on buffs and I wouldn't have it any other way - it prevents me from having to overexert myself saving peoples' asses and it also prevents the cleric from doing the same.
It's nice when tanks pick up a few pearls to make buffs easier to hand out, but all casters should understand the money constraints on front-line fighters and their inability to craft. Most casters I know (including myself) craft pearls just to give buffs to other people.
Case in point - we flew through RHOD in just 12 hours or so simply because we had a recitation, a +2 bard song, and a haste running in every single combat.
I've yet to run into this horde of clerics supposedly living in Greyhawk. Not to mention, I've had multiple tables where we were lucky to have a caster at the table, let alone two of them. Most of the time, it is someone providing a cohort for a cleric, which makes the 2 caster level loss really expensive for GMW/Heroes Feast.
This probably explains a little of the difference in Dave and my builds - my Monk Caster is constantly making adjustments assuming there won't be support, but how to take advantage of it if there is - as an example, she's crafted both Bracers of Armor +6 and Greatreach Bracers. If someone can provide GMA, she'll pull out the Greatreach Bracers for herself and take AoOs. If no one can, she'll hand the Greatreach Bracers to someone else.
How my build would look if I could constantly guarantee GMA and GMW +5 is very different than it is now.
And now that we're at APL 12-14 tables, we're getting people(who don't play clerics) to come out of the woodwork, knocking aside our cohorts...
With my 15th level arcane caster, I blow through almost half my prepared spells, 10 POP 1s, 4 POP 2s, 2 POP 3s, and 4 lesser rods of extend spell (yes 4) on buffs and I wouldn't have it any other way - it prevents me from having to overexert myself saving peoples' asses and it also prevents the cleric from doing the same.
OK, I'll bite: what's Garfoodle's all day extend routine look like? Since I'm a buff bot build with my primary caster, I'm all ears.
Heh, yeah... in my opinion, success in LG is often measured by how well the party buffs both in combat and before combat. With adequate buffs, the party typically doesn't have to go into defensive mode at all during combat - and if you do it right, you don't even have to buff very much.
I haven't sat down at a table where there weren't tons of all-day buffs being cast each morning at APL 12+ in a long time and I hope I don't have to for the remainder of 3.5 and LG. It's my expectation that at those APLs, every PC that uses a weapon receives a GMW at the expense of other spells casters may be able to cast, and at least one or two front-liners get a MV (or 2 if they have animated shields) at a bare minimum. Heroes' Feast should just go unspoken. This is regardless of whether or not I am a player of said buff-receivers. If PCs capable of providing these buffs aren't available at the table, that's a different story!
With my 15th level arcane caster, I blow through almost half my prepared spells, 10 POP 1s, 4 POP 2s, 2 POP 3s, and 4 lesser rods of extend spell (yes 4) on buffs and I wouldn't have it any other way - it prevents me from having to overexert myself saving peoples' asses and it also prevents the cleric from doing the same.
It's nice when tanks pick up a few pearls to make buffs easier to hand out, but all casters should understand the money constraints on front-line fighters and their inability to craft. Most casters I know (including myself) craft pearls just to give buffs to other people.
Case in point - we flew through RHOD in just 12 hours or so simply because we had a recitation, a +2 bard song, and a haste running in every single combat.
Well, my sorcerer6, who will be starting Red Hand in less than two weeks, has Fireball (and energy sub acid) right now. Haste will be his third level spell at level 7. (With Nerveskitter and probably Resist Energy as his level 1 and 2 spells.). I'll probably give my sorcerer Wall of Fire (And wall of acid, thanks to energy sub.) at level 8. I'll have to mention Recitation to our Clerics.
I'll have to see if there are buffing spells that he'd do well to take. And I'll have to buy a few scrolls of Haste for the earlier parts of Red Hand.
I can't argue over the importance of buffing. My sorcerer buffs daily with Mage Armor and False Life, both extended via a rod. It has helped his survivability. A lot.
I can't argue over the importance of buffing. My sorcerer buffs daily with Mage Armor and False Life, both extended via a rod. It has helped his survivability. A lot.
I never picked up mage armor because I play with wizards all the time, and I carry a pop 1 and my lesser rod and hope that they prep it. However, it's definitely amazing what going from a 13 to a 17 AC can do in addition to having 15 or so extra hitpoints.
OK, I'll bite: what's Garfoodle's all day extend routine look like? Since I'm a buff bot build with my primary caster, I'm all ears.
-Ectoplasmic Armor x6 (+9) (entire party)
-Extended Heroics - Improved Initiative (self)
-Extended Heroics - (tank)
-Extended Heroics - (tank)
-Extended See Invisibility (self)
-Anticipate Teleporation (self)
-Extended Arcane Sight (self)
-Extended Battlemagic Perception (self)
-Heart of Water (self)
-Greater Magic Weapon x2-3 (I'll cast as many as necessary, and I'll either chain a +4 GMW or if we have a bard, I'll use Earth Spell to cast +5 versions in 5th level slots - this depends entirely on the availability of chained +5 GMW from a cleric)
-Heart of Earth (self)
-Overland Flight (self)
-Commune (not a buff but I cast it every module for some info - 18 questions)
-Contingency - Antimagic Field - activated by speaking a phrase (self)
-Mind Blank (primary non-occult slayer tank or self if no one else needs it)
...notice the lack of False Life... that's a big sadface. Missing 3 schools of magic is tough. However, 168 HP prior to Heroes' Feast is plenty on a full arcanist.
In combat, I typically buff the party with the following spells, based on necessity:
-Combat Readiness (plenty of pearls, caster level 18 = +6 initiative)
-Chained Nerveskitter (every combat)
-Invisibility (it's been a while but I have 3 illusion slots of each level so why not)
-Displacement (really handy against auto-hit monsters - haven't needed it in a while though)
-Greater Invisibility (same as invisibility here)
-Mass Fly
-Fires of Purity
-Limited Wish (for any other buffs requested - my favorite is using it for Panacea to undo... something)
I don't know what Garfoodle's buff sequence looks like, but I know what Maesto's buff list looks like. I have three lesser rods of extend and a rod of normal extend, as well as a bead of karma and a hefty UMD score. Yes, I accept table variation on the crack bead.
Chained GMW +5. I usually don't need to cast this more than once, but if we're playing silly buggers with telekinesis, sometimes I do.
Detect Scrying (Extended)
Moment of Prescience
(Sometimes) Ectoplasmic Armour on the entire party
Overland Flight (Extended, usually shared with somebody who desparately needs flight via bracelets of spell sharing)
Greater Mage Armour for those who need it (I prefer a Magic Vestments for myself, go twilight)
Contingency (whatever flavour I feel like at the time)
Heart of Earth
See Invis
Heroism (either on myself for the saves, or somebody else who could use the bonus to hit if it isn't going to be outdone by a bard/righteous wrath)
Familiar Pocket
Anticipate Teleportation, Greater (extended, although some parties don't benefit from it nearly so much)
Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer (from an item)
When we're getting silly with all-day buffs...
Water Breathing on everybody
Nondetection (yes, I know it's got a cost associated with it)
Mind Blank (on one or two who really need it)
Mass Darkvision
Protection from Arrows on everybody (you'd be surprised, this saved a PC's life once)
When you get down to the ten minutes/level buffs, there's more to boot; at the minute/level buffs, everybody could easily be capping out a reciprocal gyre. However, if everything goes into half-hour buffs, then you're not expecting tough combats for the rest of the day.
-Extended Arcane Sight (self)
All of these make perfect sense except this one - isn't Arcane Sight 1 minute/level?
Does Ectoplasmic Armor stack with (Greater) Mage Armor? And how often have you seen access?
As far as incorporeals go, it doesn't stack, but it usually exceeds GMA's protection - an additional +3 touch AC, especially from a 1st level spell, goes a long way...
-Ectoplasmic Armor x6 (+9) (entire party)
I've seen access twice now, both in mods that are playable worldwide. It overlaps with GMA rather than stacking, but at high caster level, +9 AC against incorps is better than +6.
-Extended Heroics - Improved Initiative (self)
This one I've never seen access to.
-Extended Arcane Sight (self)
Jono's right; this one is only minutes/level alas. If permanency was allowed, I'd spend the XP to have this one running permanently however. Damn useful.
-Extended Battlemagic Perception (self)
Very useful. If only I had access... (I've seen access once, but with a non-caster)
-Heart of Water (self)
-Heart of Earth (self)
Ok, don't you just feel dirty casting these? (I haven't seen access to Heart of Water, but I feel bad enough casting Heart of Earth)
-Contingency - Antimagic Field - activated by speaking a phrase (self)
Careful with this one - it will drop everybody else's ioun stones out of the air
(and your own too, if you don't have extraordinary spell aim). I refuse to use a contingency that's activated on a free action however, based on the spirit of the spell. I much prefer a contingency based on some effect actually occuring, or if you really want to be able to activate it, based on a swift action spell....notice the lack of False Life... that's a big sadface. Missing 3 schools of magic is tough. However, 168 HP prior to Heroes' Feast is plenty on a full arcanist.
Missing three schools? When did focussed specialist become allowed?
-Limited Wish (for any other buffs requested - my favorite is using it for Panacea to undo... something)
Another limited spell (which was once closed, no?). Note that Limited Wish will replicate anything that panacea does anyway with either Restoration or the "undo harmful effects" option (except that you probably won't get the healing at the same time), although it might be harder with multiple effects.
I do feel dirty casting Heart of Water but it is what it is... it lets me hand out my Ring of FOM to someone else at the table.
I got access to Focused Specialist from a Meta-Org. For a Shadowcraft Mage, it's amazing.
There's some ETV on how AM field functions with Ioun Stones and Animated Shields. 95% of the time, if you don't move more than like 5 or 10 feet, most GMs are okay with them floating right back up when the AM field goes down. I typically rule this way as well - especially since things are just suppressed. There's no hard and fast rule for it. Also, when I have to pop it, it's worth it. I've had to pop my contingency twice in my life, so no big deal. Also, I have NO qualms about activating a Contingency with a free action like speaking. I see no issues with the "spirit" of the spell and the downside to my trigger is it won't work in a Silence. I can see where you're coming from I suppose though.
Panacea is just more cute - it does it all at the same time. I have a lot of random limited spell access. I've only done it once so far - I generally look for creative ways to use my Limited Wish spells. Most frequently, I use it to replicate no SR spells I have against Golems and the such - like Freezing Fog or Wall of Gears.
I've seen access twice now, both in mods that are playable worldwide. It overlaps with GMA rather than stacking, but at high caster level, +9 AC against incorps is better than +6.
This one I've never seen access to.
Jono's right; this one is only minutes/level alas. If permanency was allowed, I'd spend the XP to have this one running permanently however. Damn useful.
Very useful. If only I had access... (I've seen access once, but with a non-caster)
Ok, don't you just feel dirty casting these? (I haven't seen access to Heart of Water, but I feel bad enough casting Heart of Earth)
Careful with this one - it will drop everybody else's ioun stones out of the air
Missing three schools? When did focussed specialist become allowed?
Anotheulr limited spell (which was once closed, no?). Note that Limited Wish will replicate anything that panacea does anyway with either Restoration or the "undo harmful effects" option (except that you probably won't get the healing at the same time), although it might be harder with mtiple effects.
Chained GMW +5. I usually don't need to cast this more than once, but if we're playing silly buggers with telekinesis, sometimes I do.
How does Maesto get up to +5? I can see potentially CL 18 with Orange Rock, Ring of Arcane Might, and maybe 1 CL boost from Archmage (you don't have 2, do you?), but where are the other 1/2 coming from? Or does this require a Bard...?
How does Maesto get up to +5? I can see potentially CL 18 with Orange Rock, Ring of Arcane Might, and maybe 1 CL boost from Archmage (you don't have 2, do you?), but where are the other 1/2 coming from? Or does this require a Bard...?
Man I sure love my strand of prayer beads : +4 CL for ten minutes. Next level I'll be +5 weapons and armor - can't wait.
How does Maesto get up to +5? I can see potentially CL 18 with Orange Rock, Ring of Arcane Might, and maybe 1 CL boost from Archmage (you don't have 2, do you?), but where are the other 1/2 coming from? Or does this require a Bard...?
My guess would be a UMD check to pretend he can cast divine spells and a crack bead. (bead of karma)
15 levels of wizard, ring of arcane might, orange prism ioun stone for 17 normally. I've contemplated the arcane power archmage ability, but meh... If there's a bard around boosting stuff, there's no question on getting to 20. Otherwise, I've got a bit of TV on whether or not the bead of karma will work for me. +20 to UMD.
Yeah, that TV would be tricky, the intent clearly applies it to divine spells but the text doesn't clarify that...
Silly wizards stealing clerical thunder!
Yeah, that TV would be tricky, the intent clearly applies it to divine spells but the text doesn't clarify that...
Silly wizards stealing clerical thunder!
I agree whole-heartedly. No one but Divine Casters can use a Karma Bead at a table I DM - no matter how high your UMD is. To be honest, I'm surprised Jolyon's opposed to using a free trigger for Contingency but isn't opposed to trying to use a Karma Bead with UMD as an Arcane Caster. For shame!
I agree whole-heartedly. No one but Divine Casters can use a Karma Bead at a table I DM - no matter how high your UMD is. To be honest, I'm surprised Jolyon's opposed to using a free trigger for Contingency but isn't opposed to trying to use a Karma Bead with UMD as an Arcane Caster. For shame!
That's actually my take on it as well(Jolyon's)
UMD allows you to adopt a class feature, such as spellcasting from a Cleric on a roll of 21. That means the spells you cast are considered divine from the point of view of the item, regardless of whether or not anyone else considers them divine.
You need the spells to consider the CL boost to be arcane though.
"Wearer casts his spells at +4 caster level. Effect lasts 10 minutes." - says nothing about divine spells.
In order to activate one, it "can be activated by any character capable of casting divine spells."
A Mystic Theurge, which is in DMG, is a PrC extremely likely to have both arcane and divine spells...yes, that's asking a lot of the designers to make that connection, but we can't just assume they didn't make it period. Not to mention, the Summons item can only be activated by the same people - it is an obvious class feature thing and UMD doesn't have problems with class features if you make the roll, as much as some people would like it to have such.
"Wearer casts his spells at +4 caster level. Effect lasts 10 minutes." - says nothing about divine spells.
In order to activate one, it "can be activated by any character capable of casting divine spells."
A Mystic Theurge, which is in DMG, is a PrC extremely likely to have both arcane and divine spells...yes, that's asking a lot of the designers to make that connection, but we can't just assume they didn't make it period.
I'm not going to argue it. There are many gray areas in the rules, and this is certainly one of them. Your reasoning is sound. However, my displeasure with that interpretation is very similar to someone else's displeasure at my interpretation that a Dwarf with Weapon Focus (maul) can qualify for Exotic Weapon Master and use Uncanny Blow with a bastard sword. I happen to believe that this is very much against the intent of the item - and seeing as to how this wouldn't impact anyone's core PC build, I wouldn't feel bad about prohibiting it as a DM.
I was simply stating my surprise at the fact that Jolyon is opposed to using Contingency in the way I mentioned, but isn't opposed to interpreting this item in the way stated above. It just goes to illustrate the variagated morals we D&D players (powergamers?) have.
That's actually my take on it as well(Jolyon's)
UMD allows you to adopt a class feature, such as spellcasting from a Cleric on a roll of 21. That means the spells you cast are considered divine from the point of view of the item, regardless of whether or not anyone else considers them divine.
You do need an identify or analyse dweomer as well to overcome the part that says that you need to cast a divine spell to figure out how to activate the item.
As for reading contingency that way and allowing UMD on a crackbead? I figure contingency is free (essentially), while The crackbead needs a 45K investment...
You do need an identify or analyse dweomer as well to overcome the part that says that you need to cast a divine spell to figure out how to activate the item.
As for reading contingency that way and allowing UMD on a crackbead? I figure contingency is free (essentially), while The crackbead needs a 45K investment...
Couldn't you "just" find access to a scroll of righteous might, UMD that and CWI the bead for 11K? It's a strand of prayer beads with the healing and smiting beads missing...
Couldn't you "just" find access to a scroll of righteous might, UMD that and CWI the bead for 11K? It's a strand of prayer beads with the healing and smiting beads missing...
No. A strand of prayer beads requires all 3 beads - an individual bead of karma is what happens when someone is dumb enough to take off the other beads.
In any case, you do realize that takes 22 scrolls of righteous might - that's almost more expensive than the actual item...
"Wearer casts his spells at +4 caster level. Effect lasts 10 minutes." - says nothing about divine spells.
In order to activate one, it "can be activated by any character capable of casting divine spells."
A Mystic Theurge, which is in DMG, is a PrC extremely likely to have both arcane and divine spells...yes, that's asking a lot of the designers to make that connection, but we can't just assume they didn't make it period. Not to mention, the Summons item can only be activated by the same people - it is an obvious class feature thing and UMD doesn't have problems with class features if you make the roll, as much as some people would like it to have such.
I agree with the rules interpretation being legal by RAW, but I don't like it, and would give you surly looks for doing it.
Nonetheless it is one of the things UMD can do, it jsut bugs me that UMD is so carte blanche. Its not like +20 is hard to get.
However, my cleric would stop you from doing it in the mornings, citing you tricking the gods, and demand that you cease such a heathen act immediately!
I agree with the rules interpretation being legal by RAW, but I don't like it, and would give you surly looks for doing it.
Nonetheless it is one of the things UMD can do, it jsut bugs me that UMD is so carte blanche. Its not like +20 is hard to get.
However, my cleric would stop you from doing it in the mornings, citing you tricking the gods, and demand that you cease such a heathen act immediately!
Let me get this straight...your cleric is claiming that while you can't be fooled by this, your god can? Are you sure you're still getting spells in the morning ;)
I don't like Bead of Karma or for that matter, other items that boost caster level across the board. That's a problem with Bead of Karma, not UMD.
You really want to see UMD cheese - my Bard just got a Shield of Mercy(MIC), which allows someone to use Smites to power Healing. Smites, a specific individual use of a class feature in a way nearly identical to that of the example in PHB. My Bard's not really playing any longer, so I'm not truly abusing it, but in essence, he can heal infinite damage in a day at a cost of a little over 2K at an average of 19 hp of damage per shot.
You really want to see UMD cheese - my Bard just got a Shield of Mercy(MIC), which allows someone to use Smites to power Healing. Smites, a specific individual use of a class feature in a way nearly identical to that of the example in PHB. My Bard's not really playing any longer, so I'm not truly abusing it, but in essence, he can heal infinite damage in a day at a cost of a little over 2K at an average of 19 hp of damage per shot.
Yeah you brought that up on Openrpg the other day.
As I said there. Naughty. Legal, but naughty.
Imo, its the responsibilty of the well informed gamers to notice these flaws, and then agree NOT to use em. Plenty of non dodgy ways to be effective imo.
Some poepe though do have to 'win' at all costs, and thats when you cross the line from an optimal competent character to rules exploitation for exploitations sake. Its a pretty fine line unfortunately, but I don't think anyone will dispute 'unlimited healing' is a gray area
Okay, three things. I lied. John, I would really suggest choosing the path that gives you more, cooler options, because that is what's going to make the character more fun to play. Take my word on that, as I speak from experience. Yes, selecting the classic path of Full BAB, high Str, Melee Weapon Mastery, Uncanny Blow will always net a damage powerhouse. There's no question. Is it more fun than a fighter that deals nearly as much damage but has some fun combat options or some interesting spellcasting options? Absolutely not. Therefore, consider going as high as you can in PT, casting those spells, and maybe take Craft Wondrous to help me your life a bit easier.
I agree with this. Maxing out the melee capabilities of your character will, IMHO, result in a character who's pretty much one dimensional with one thing that it does really, really, well. A little flexibility goes a long way in the enjoyability of a character. You can have the nastiest melee combatant in the campaign, but imagine what it'd be like if you fought fliers all the time.
Granted every player worth his salt will have a plan B for their character, but unless you invest some character resources in it, it's likely to be relatively ineffective. IMHO, a little diversification goes a long way.
I'll resist the temptation to discuss my character's specifics here, though I'll admit to a penchant of bragging about my fighter. :D
I agree with this. Maxing out the melee capabilities of your character will, IMHO, result in a character who's pretty much one dimensional with one thing that it does really, really, well. A little flexibility goes a long way in the enjoyability of a character. You can have the nastiest melee combatant in the campaign, but imagine what it'd be like if you fought fliers all the time.
Granted every player worth his salt will have a plan B for their character, but unless you invest some character resources in it, it's likely to be relatively ineffective. IMHO, a little diversification goes a long way.
I'll resist the temptation to discuss my character's specifics here, though I'll admit to a penchant of bragging about my fighter. :D
Potions of Fly. Always have at least one once you reach APL 6. (By level 5, or around thereabouts) Also, buying a strength bow for a high strength character isn't a bad idea. (Even if you have a low dex and no archery feats.)
Other major items are light sources, alchemical weapons (Acid flasks, Holy waters a tanglefoot bag, etc) a potion of Remove Blindness, and a number of other small yet important items.
Seriously, they're called consumables because you're supposed to consume them. Buying them is a pre-requisite.
I'll not re-write the whole thread, but remember that the most awesome character in the world can be sidelined by a single spell. Often it's something like a potion of water breathing that makes the difference between a 12th level power attacking terror, and a pile of useless that's a liability to the group.
I agree whole-heartedly. No one but Divine Casters can use a Karma Bead at a table I DM - no matter how high your UMD is. T
Is there much table variation on a character that casts both types of spells trying to use the Prayer Beads on arcane spells? My main is a Fochlycan Lyrist, so i've got a smidgen of divine spellcasting. I haven't seen access, nor do I have the money, but it's still something to think about if I ever see it and have the cash. (Then again, so is the rod of Chain Spell; there's something to be said about a chained CL 20 Greater Dispel)
I'll not re-write the whole thread, but remember that the most awesome character in the world can be sidelined by a single spell. Often it's something like a potion of water breathing that makes the difference between a 12th level power attacking terror, and a pile of useless that's a liability to the group.
Reminds me of the last mod I was in. The final encounter was another party of adventurers that were prepped and waiting for us. My party consisted of me (lvl 14 combat cleric), a lvl 14 druid, and two lvl 14 arcane casters (warmage, sorceror). There were a bunch of melee goons that occupied me and the druid, and an invisible (invisibility, greater?) flying archer taking shots at the spellcasters. I figured that archer would be easily taken out by two lvl 14 arcane casters.
Instead, the archer tore them apart - they only survived because I casted delay death on both of them. They couldn't see the archer, and at level 14 it apparently had never occurred to them that they might someday fight someone that was invisible.
I think I purchased my first potion of see invisible at around lvl 4. Before that I bought a pouch of flour. Before that I casted create water on the ground so I could see where their feet were. I can't fathom getting to lvl 14 without an answer for invisible opponents.
I think I purchased my first potion of see invisible at around lvl 4. Before that I bought a pouch of flour. Before that I casted create water on the ground so I could see where their feet were. I can't fathom getting to lvl 14 without an answer for invisible opponents.
Umm a potion of see invisibility is not a valid potion. See invisibility is a personal spell.
-James
Umm a potion of see invisibility is not a valid potion. See invisibility is a personal spell.
-James
But scrolls aren't invalid. My sorcerer has TWO scrolls of See Invisibility. (And glitterdust as a spell to back it up.) He's had them ever since the party managed to end a brutal battle because my sorcerer had See Invis on a scroll.
He was helped by a Cleric with Invisibility Purge. Which is a spell that Clerics should pack along just in case and convert to healing last.
There's a thread on a local forum about must buy items that ALL characters should have. Regardless of level. I'm tempted to post it in the main LG forums. Potions of Fly, Scrolls of See Invis, Potions or Scrolls of Water Breathing and Potions of Remove Blindness are all in that post.
Hariman
But scrolls aren't invalid.
There's a thread on a local forum about must buy items that ALL characters should have.
Now that I fully agree with.. I would add an caveat that consumables in general should be categorized into 'emergency', 'special occasion', and 'everyday use'. What falls into which category should be a function of economics.
People tend to confuse those categories and then based on that experience give consumables a bad rap.
-James
Reminds me of the last mod I was in. The final encounter was another party of adventurers that were prepped and waiting for us. My party consisted of me (lvl 14 combat cleric), a lvl 14 druid, and two lvl 14 arcane casters (warmage, sorceror). There were a bunch of melee goons that occupied me and the druid, and an invisible (invisibility, greater?) flying archer taking shots at the spellcasters. I figured that archer would be easily taken out by two lvl 14 arcane casters.
Instead, the archer tore them apart - they only survived because I casted delay death on both of them. They couldn't see the archer, and at level 14 it apparently had never occurred to them that they might someday fight someone that was invisible.
I think I purchased my first potion of see invisible at around lvl 4. Before that I bought a pouch of flour. Before that I casted create water on the ground so I could see where their feet were. I can't fathom getting to lvl 14 without an answer for invisible opponents.
Which is why my wizard(10th) almost always memorizes See Invisibility and why my fighter has a Dragonmask.
Which is why my wizard(10th) almost always memorizes See Invisibility and why my fighter has a Dragonmask.
My Monk caster has both a lesser crystal of revelation and a dragonmask - they work very well in combo with each other - she swift activates the dragonmask, then moves up to the invisible target and whacks 'em.
Is there much table variation on a character that casts both types of spells trying to use the Prayer Beads on arcane spells? My main is a Fochlycan Lyrist, so i've got a smidgen of divine spellcasting. I haven't seen access, nor do I have the money, but it's still something to think about if I ever see it and have the cash. (Then again, so is the rod of Chain Spell; there's something to be said about a chained CL 20 Greater Dispel)
As far as I'm concerned, crack beads grant the bonus to your divine caster level. If you are both an arcane spellcaster and a divine spellcaster, you only get the +4 on divine spells.