| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| #1ratnoseJul 01, 2008 16:56:59 | Please help me think through an elven wizard / archer. I am one level into what will probably be my last LG character, ready to take my second level. The character will be the only arcanist in a tank-heavy Greyhawk Ruins group. Unfortunately, I tend to avoid playing arcanists, and have started the character as an archer. I currently have a grey elf ranger 1, using the Elf Ranger Substitution level from Races of the Wild (access from a regional org / elf tribe). My first level feat was point blank shot. I have xp for second level, and had intended to take a level of wizard next (again, using the Elf Wizard Substitution level from Races of the Wild). Stats are: Str- 12 Dex- 16 Con- 12 Int- 17 Wis- 10 Cha- 8 From here I have too many ideas of where to go. Arcane archer would take too long to get to, and would leave me casting low level spells compared to the needs of the party. I could… …take wizard the rest of the way and take all metamagic feats… …take a level of fighter, then more wizard, and a level of spellsword to be able to use armor… …concentrate on archery feats and buff out the bow damage with magic… …go into war weaver (which I also have access to) in order to assist the many, many tanks in the party… The concept that I started with was of a wild-ish Gadhelyn worshipping elf who comes down from the mountains to learn about the humans and humanoids of Greyhawk, so that he can kill them easier if they ever try to invade his perfect sylvan homeland. I don't know if that will fit into a build, though. If anyone has played a ranger / wizard / archer combo and has ideas, I’d appreciate the advice. Thanks. |
| #2timlagorJul 01, 2008 21:12:28 | Ranger and Wizard really don't combine well. ..but Warweaver might just be potent enough to make you decent even with two lost spell levels (just not as good as if you'd dont it without the ranger level). My first advice would be to think hard whether you would be better off restarting the character (that's what I'd do) -the attributes aren't too bad but that ranger (non-spell) level is really going to hurt. Is your War-Weaver access from a mod or your ridiculously juicy metaorg? |
| #3swiftbrookJul 01, 2008 21:25:55 | I currently have a grey elf ranger 1, using the Elf Ranger Substitution level from Races of the Wild (access from a regional org / elf tribe). Problem. I have been told that 1st you build your 1st level character using LGCS, then you get your first AR. In other words, you have no access to Elf Ranger Substitution levels until after you created your character. When you hit second level, you may retrain to have 1st level Elf Ranger Substitution levels if you wish. I tried having the AR bit before the character and was shot down. Sorry. -Swiftbrook (Elf Ranger 12 with substitution levels :-) ) |
| #4swiftbrookJul 01, 2008 21:27:48 | If you get access, try a Ranger (archer)/Duskblade. Just a couple levels dip in Duskblade. Usefull spells, cast with armor, good HP and Will save. Now, just find access. -Swiftbrook |
| #5ReylanceJul 02, 2008 14:00:44 | You can be very effective archer using wizard spells like arrow mind, sonic weapon, and flame arrow to do a lot of damage with each shot. You will also have spell slots for useful buffs and battlefield control. This build uses Rgr1/Wiz5or6/Eldritch KnightX. |
| #6ratnoseJul 02, 2008 16:17:56 | I am using the racial substitution classes and access to war weaver from the "Born of the Phost" metaorg from the Theocracy of the Pale. As I understand it, you get the benefits from being born into that society, hence as long as you make the character according to the qualifications, you get the benefits. Does that make sense? So one vote for the character being illegal, one vote for I am an idiot who has nerfed the party, and two votes for neat concept with the right spells or finding access to Duskblade. Any other opinions? I know there are out there. Thanks for the feedback so far. |
| #7swiftbrookJul 02, 2008 17:09:11 | I am using the racial substitution classes and access to war weaver from the "Born of the Phost" metaorg from the Theocracy of the Pale. As I understand it, you get the benefits from being born into that society, hence as long as you make the character according to the qualifications, you get the benefits. Does that make sense? note: if this ends up as a double post, sorry. My 1st I think was lost I found the document in question. A very powerful metaorg IMO. +2 bonus to Knowledge Nature and Survival with no limitation. Generally, I have see +2/+4 bonuses in a specific country or forest. Now to get the access to the racial substitution levels, you must be a member of a clan. To be a member of a clan you must meet certain skill rank requirements. To have ranks in a skill, you must have a class and spend skill points. So at character creation, you can't qualify for racial sub levels. retrain at 2nd level, about AR #3. Now, I tried something similar were the only requirement was a member of country X on AR 1. I was also shot down :-(. I'd do it if I could. -Swiftbrook |
| #8kinevonJul 02, 2008 17:16:11 | I am using the racial substitution classes and access to war weaver from the "Born of the Phost" metaorg from the Theocracy of the Pale. As I understand it, you get the benefits from being born into that society, hence as long as you make the character according to the qualifications, you get the benefits. Does that make sense? 2 TUs a year – The first year is spent undergoing the rites of passage into your chosen or birth tribe. Thereafter, the time is spent on regular tribal duties. If not for the 2 TU cost, you could start out as a Phostaldaron member, but, because you can't spend TUs before your first AR, you cannot build a new PC as a member. Same problem I was having with my kobold character, who can't start out with his Draconic Rite power because it has a TU cost.No problem with building the character as meeting all requirements to join the Born of the Phost meta-org, but you would have to use retraining when you get to 2nd level to make that 1st level Ranger into the substitution level. And you won't be able to join the Tie Aldaron until you reach at least 5th level, given the skill requirements. Sorry to come down on the "illegal build" side, though. I was looking at the meta-org, myself, but because my PC who would be interested is pure human, he only qualified for the parts of the meta-org that wouldn't work well with his build as an archer-type. Heh. |
| #9timlagorJul 02, 2008 19:34:17 | I'm going to have to vote for technically illegal as well as weak -there's no really good reason for it but that is the rule. ..chances are no one will notice There's no triad to take it to now though. The obvoius fix is to spend the 200gp +4TU retraining cost (hardly going to break the character) and move on. Technically you should probably run this past the Circle at this point but I'd expect any GM to accept this fix without bothering the Circle. With strength 12 the extra damage from spells (when you get them running) still won't put you ahead of the dedicated archer. The loss of BAB and relatively modest Dex will make you less likely to hit and give you fewer shots. Crafting will make up some/all of the gap in due course but how many levels do you expect to get? You will also get some out of combat utility spells. BUT every round of combat you spend not firing puts you way behind the 'real' archer. You can spend that round bein a weak spellcaster... you will be spending your actions being either a weak archer or a weak caster -and I haven't even mentioned the Feat issues. You can build this character. He will be able to make a respectable contribution but he's going to be relatively weak and will never compensate for having an unbalanced or otherwise weak table: if you start again with a straight wizard your character will be more powerful for more games (and that includes the 1000+xp you would be giving up) With the group you mention I'd expect you to find most of your important* combat actions to be spent casting spells (often buffing your allies) with the whole archery side contributing nothing to your ability that round. If you haven't done an arcanist before I really reocmmend you try a pure spellslinger. If you're determined to keep this character going then Reylance offers a good plan. Feats are going to be very tight though -especailly with Ranger 1 rather than fighter 1. * first couple of rounds of combat and basically any time you aren't just 'mopping up' |
| #10harimanJul 02, 2008 22:33:24 | Personally, I recommend either sticking with Ranger or making very sure that you have a good plan for multiclassing into Wizard. Yes, you can gain a LOT by using wizard spells to boost your archery. BUT, you lose BAB, combat actions and certain feats. I actually recommend multiclassing into Fighter for extra feats and especially weapon focus/specialization. BUT, if you must multiclass into Wizard, plan out how you will be effective in combat before you actually do the multiclassing. If your combat actions are "Buff, Buff, Buff, Attack" for the love of god, don't do it! Find a way to be an effective archer first and foremost. Arrow Mind is a great spell, chiefly because you CAN fire in melee when using it. Sonic Weapon is another good one, because extra damage is extra damage. Also, you'll need to figure out a way to boost your attack bonus, as your BAB will lag from the wizard levels. You should definitely get Precise Shot and Rapid Shot as feats. Sharp Shooting (Half cover bonus to enemy's AC) is another good one. And if you get access to a Lesser Crystal that augments damage, BUY IT! any D6 of damage on your bow is a good one. So energy damage crystals and the Truedeath and Demolition Crystals are great to have. Truthfully, I think multiclassing into fighter for the feats is a FAR better choice than wizard. What does the Half Elf Substitution level do anyway? |
| #11bitznarfJul 02, 2008 22:38:16 | Coordinated Shot is also a very nice feat. I haven't checked to see if it is NONC or Open, but you might want to consider it. Essentially, allies do no provide cover vs your ranged attacks. So when in dungeons and whatnot, you can shoot right past the tanks that are up front without any sort of penalties. |
| #12kinevonJul 03, 2008 7:59:23 | Coordinated Shot is also a very nice feat. I haven't checked to see if it is NONC or Open, but you might want to consider it. Essentially, allies do no provide cover vs your ranged attacks. So when in dungeons and whatnot, you can shoot right past the tanks that are up front without any sort of penalties. Just remember, on Coordinated Shot, that you will need to retrain it when/if you take Improved Precise Shot, since it becomes redundant at that point. And, according to the last version of the LGCS I downloaded, 7.5, it is NONC. My own archer character has access to it from a couple of ARs, but it was soundly shot down when I mentioned it in my build help thread. ![]() |
| #13ratnoseJul 03, 2008 15:46:46 | Wow, lots of votes for “crappy character”. Let me explain why I chose to start off with a level of ranger, and the decision to be an archer. It is not the optimized choice, but then I didn’t post this to the optimization board. -I believe that a good character is more than the sum is his combat potential. A level of ranger gives me triple the starting skill points as well as track. An elf who doesn’t start off with strong spot, listen, and search is really missing out. Combined with alertness from a familiar, my ranger 1 / wizard 1 with wis 10 and int 17 has an 8 listen and spot and a 9 search. Even the 4 points of survival have helped out with some track checks. In a game where everyone is obsessed with doing damage I have always tried to play a rounded character, and had a lot of fun doing so while still contributing. -Speaking of spot and listen, what good is the extra caster level when you are always caught in the surprise round? Most wizards that I have seen have a +1 spot and listen (wis 8 and alertness from their familiar). Getting a spell off in the surprise round is something that I rarely see wizards able to do. By the time that they act, the druids, rangers, and rogues with the good spot checks are already knee-deep in blood and guts (usually their own, because the wizards is still gazing off into space). -Characters also need to be able to survive, which is helped out greatly by starting off with a level of ranger. This gets me +2 to reflex and fort saves, as well as extra hit points. This is roughly like taking Greater Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, and Toughness all at once. Add in Track, and that is like exchanging one caster level for four feats, plus armor and weapon proficiencies. And Favored Enemy. And all the skills. What a bargain! -A level of ranger, and taking some archery feats, helps with what in my mind is the major problem with wizards. I have often heard the following from party wizards: “uh, I am out of offensive spells, and none of the other spells that I prepped are any good, so I will draw my crossbow… which isn’t magic… and miss a lot”. Investing in a strong bow (maybe a holy bow), being able to cast sonic weapon, flame arrow, and arrow mind, gives a character the ability to stay in a fight for the long haul after the flame strikes and lightning bolts are gone. Yes, these take spell slots, but these spells are the gifts that keep on giving through round after round of combat. As you can probably tell, I am a player who is at home with rangers, rogues, and marshals, who caught the short straw in party selection. Our party has two dwarven fighters, a rogue / fighter, a turning cleric, and a sorcerer who can’t figure out how to read his spell sheet (and that is when he isn’t showing up chemically enhanced). Somebody had to take the wizard, and if it was going to be me I wanted to make it a character that I wanted to play, not one that fit nicely into a generic party slot. I still play D&D like I used to play vampires and werewolves, putting character and story just ahead of damage potential. Call me crazy. |
| #14ratnoseJul 03, 2008 15:48:32 | Alright, venting time is over. Any thoughts on the following builds? I’ve only gone to level 12, because I am not sure that the Greyhawk Ruins campaign will get me past that. Please note that the first two character levels are already picked. Option 1- Archer / Caster 1: Ranger 1- Point Blank Shot 2: Wizard 1 3: Fighter 1- Precise Shot, Rapid Shot 4: Wizard 2 5: Wizard 3 6: Wizard 4- Smiting Spell 7: Wizard 5- Empower Spell or Craft Arms & Armor 8: Spellsword 1 9: Eldritch Knight 1- Sharpshooting, Practiced Caster 10: Eldritch Knight 2 11: Eldritch Knight 3 12: Eldritch Knight 4- ??? BAB at this point will be +9, casting up to level 5 spells at caster level 12, able to use armor. Option 2- Skilled Caster 1: Ranger 1- Point Blank Shot 2: Wizard 1 3: Wizard 2- Precise Shot 4: Wizard 3 5: Wizard 4- 6: Wizard 5- Smiting Spell, Wind-Carried Arrows 7: Scout 1 8: Unseen Seer 1 9: Unseen Seer 2- Practiced Caster 10: Unseen Seer 3 11: Unseen Seer 4 12: Unseen Seer 5- ??? BAB is only +6, casting up to level 6 spells at caster level 12, plus 3d6 skirmish and tons of skills Option 3- Arcane Archer 1: Ranger 1- Point Blank Shot 2: Wizard 1 3: Ranger 2- Precise Shot, Rapid Shot 4: Wizard 2 5: Wizard 3 6: Wizard 4- Smiting Spell 7: Fighter 1- Sharpshooting 8: Spellsword 1 9: Arcane Archer 1- Practiced Caster 10: Arcane Archer 2 11: Wizard 5- Empower Spell 12: Wizard 6- ??? BAB is +9, casting up to 4th level spells at caster level 10, plus imbue arrow. My home group loves this build, I think it is the worst of the bunch (and considering that I’ve gotten bad reviews so far, it must be either terrible or great) I may not agree with all of it, but I appreciate the feedback from everyone. |
| #15koushiroJul 03, 2008 18:18:58 | Well there is the question you have to ask yourself which is how much do you ant to be an archer and how much do you want to be a wizard? Your kind of doing a half way job with a lot of these builds and for LG that's usually dangerous. :/ A majority of the elven archers I've seen only have a little bit of wizard, usually specializing on diviner so they have access to Arrow Mind and Guided shot a number of times per day. Think my friend is something like a Ranger/Fighter/Wizard/Arcane Archer |
| #16timlagorJul 03, 2008 18:52:25 | You are sending very mixed signals.Wow, lots of votes for “crappy character”. Let me explain why I chose to start off with a level of ranger, and the decision to be an archer. It is not the optimized choice, but then I didn’t post this to the optimization board. I said "weak" not "crappy". ..and yet you keep posting "builds" and asking for advice to make your character effective. I don't recall a single word about this character's background of motivations beyond the fact that he's in that MetaOrg with the ridiculously generous benefits (nto that I'm jealous or anything ;)) -I believe that a good character is more than the sum is his combat potential. A level of ranger gives me triple the starting skill points as well as track. An elf who doesn’t start off with strong spot, listen, and search is really missing out. Combined with alertness from a familiar, my ranger 1 / wizard 1 with wis 10 and int 17 has an 8 listen and spot and a 9 search. Even the 4 points of survival have helped out with some track checks. In a game where everyone is obsessed with doing damage I have always tried to play a rounded character, and had a lot of fun doing so while still contributing. If you played a straight wizard, I think you'd find you had enough options and variety to keep you satisfied. Incidentally, good wizards barely give a thought to doing damage let alone being obsessed with it. -Speaking of spot and listen, what good is the extra caster level when you are always caught in the surprise round? Most wizards that I have seen have a +1 spot and listen (wis 8 and alertness from their familiar). Getting a spell off in the surprise round is something that I rarely see wizards able to do. By the time that they act, the druids, rangers, and rogues with the good spot checks are already knee-deep in blood and guts (usually their own, because the wizards is still gazing off into space). Spot&Listen would be more important in LG if we didn't have Feign Surprise and SKill-free ambushes. Regardless of skills and cards, meaningful* suprise rounds against the PCs aren't that common anyway. While perception skills are very nice they don't come close to makingup for spell levels. * ones that don't consist of the undead climbing from their graves -Characters also need to be able to survive, which is helped out greatly by starting off with a level of ranger. This gets me +2 to reflex and fort saves, as well as extra hit points. This is roughly like taking Greater Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, and Toughness all at once. Add in Track, and that is like exchanging one caster level for four feats, plus armor and weapon proficiencies. And Favored Enemy. And all the skills. What a bargain! Now you're back on the optimising train... All those things are nice ..but they aren't spell levels. Yes spell progression really does make that much difference. You are also exchanging your all-important spell level for a bunch of mediocre feats. -A level of ranger, and taking some archery feats, helps with what in my mind is the major problem with wizards. I have often heard the following from party wizards: “uh, I am out of offensive spells, and none of the other spells that I prepped are any good, so I will draw my crossbow… which isn’t magic… and miss a lot”. Either you haven't played with any well-played wizards or you weren't paying attention. - At very low levels the crossbow attack from the wizard if a significant threat: not as good as the dedicated weapon-user but still capable of dropping a few orcs. - well played wizards (even at 1st level) can devastate combats with a single spell ..but don't necessarily have enough spells to make it worth using the spell on this fight if it looks like an easy win already. - the powerful wizard does spend significant amounts of time delaying or taking weak actions in combats when they don't feel threatened. Investing in a strong bow (maybe a holy bow), being able to cast sonic weapon, flame arrow, and arrow mind, gives a character the ability to stay in a fight for the long haul after the flame strikes and lightning bolts are gone. Yes, these take spell slots, but these spells are the gifts that keep on giving through round after round of combat. ACTIONS ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT RESOURCE ANY CHARACTER HAS Once you get a few levels you won't run out of spells any more (so long as you are careful) ...the more you delay the spells the longer you will take to have a significant number. Being a second-rate archer is not a good option for the superstar class that is the wizard. Beyond the first few levels there will probably be no "long haul" anyway. APL10+ combats only rarely go beyond 3 rounds. As you can probably tell, I am a player who is at home with rangers, rogues, and marshals, who caught the short straw in party selection. Our party has two dwarven fighters, a rogue / fighter, a turning cleric, and a sorcerer who can’t figure out how to read his spell sheet (and that is when he isn’t showing up chemically enhanced). Somebody had to take the wizard, and if it was going to be me I wanted to make it a character that I wanted to play, not one that fit nicely into a generic party slot. I still play D&D like I used to play vampires and werewolves, putting character and story just ahead of damage potential. Call me crazy. You're not crazy -just ignorant :P Ok.. so you need to fill the "wizard slot" ..which you're going to do by creating a character that can't fill that slot and chooses to spend all their combat actions firing arrows instead of casting spells. You already have a Sorceror. What are you going to do that he won't? |
| #17timlagorJul 03, 2008 18:57:23 | Ok here are some questions to ask yourself. - do you really need to play a wizard? - why? - if there does have to be a wizard, why you? - what do you see your character doing in the first round of a combat? - how about the second round? - third? - ...so what proportion of the combats are you actually spending using your bow? - what are the spells doing for you that couldn't be done just as effectively with full-BAB and Feats which are 'always on'? - which spells do you propose to use regularly? - ..and why? Craft Wondrous Item should be on your Feat list. |
| #18harimanJul 03, 2008 19:53:43 | If you want to play a CASTER, take all wizard levels after that first ranger level. DO NOT give up any more spellcasting levels than what you already have. Choose a focus for your wizard, like buffing (Haste, bull's strength, etc.), crowd control (Grease, glitterdust, etc.) or another path for your wizard and specialize in that. Consider retraining into a specialist wizard for the extra spell slots. Divination isn't half bad to specialize in, and it can be helpful to always have a slot for See Invis and other divinations. If you are playing a wizard as a caster, it's probably best to forego archery in favor of your spells. Although having backup scrolls would probably be helpful. IF you want to play an ARCHER, I recommend multiclassing into fighter. You're already Ranger1/Wizard1, so in my opinion, your next levels should be (In this order) Ranger2 (Precise and Rapid Shot) Fighter1 (Sharp Shooting) Fighter 2 (Weapon Focus, your bow of choice) Wizard 2 (BAB, Feat) Order of the Bow Initiate1 (Or Ranger 3) Order of the Bow Initiate2 (Or Arcane Archer 1) If you take Order of the Bow, take only 3 levels before you drop it in favor of Ranger and Fighter. (After level 3, the benefits become so-so.) The key is to get Ranger and Fighter up to the point where you have 3 of ranger and 4 of fighter for Weapon Specialization and Weapon Mastery. Keep in mind that Order of the Bow gives you a damage increasing option with the Order of the Bow shot. If you take Arcane Archer, then you're probably best off just progressing all the way in Arcane Archer. I didn't really mean to come across as mean, but I had a bad prior experience with multiclassing wizard and rogue. The concept wasn't too far off of what you're doing save for wanting sneak attack instead of raw damage. It was a mess. I'd have been better off just playing a fighter/archer or a straight wizard. That's why I don't recommend Multiclassing if you play a caster. Making an archer can be made better by multiclassing though. Fighter/Ranger/Wizard can be quite good. Especially if you retrain into a divination specialist for Arrow mind and Guided Shot. |
| #19ratnoseJul 03, 2008 21:03:59 | Again, thanks everyone- I am humbled by the insight and thoughtfulness of your responses. I suppose that this is revealing my total ignorance of how to play a wizard, and I should own up to that. I have played with some mediocre wizards (who hopefully aren’t reading this). You have all been very enlightening to someone who is hard to convince, and raised some good questions. I really can’t ask for any more input from you, but I’d like to answer your questions, because it will help me think about what I am looking for. If you all still care to follow, let me answer some of those questions: Why play a wizard at all? Someone asked what I could contribute that the sorcerer does not. I show up at our weekly came consistently, on time, and sober. Last night our sorcerer tried to cast color spray from the back of a single file marching order, tried to cast disrupt undead around a corner, then tried to cast disrupt undead on a spider swarm. Perhaps we don’t need a wizard at all. I was asked earlier what action would change being an archer vs being a wizard, and honestly I am not sure. Does a party need a strong arcane caster? Can we get by with a decent ranged fighter instead of a wizard? Who is this character? Does he have character besides being part of a broken metaorg? The character came about from a lifetime love of hiking and the outdoors, a recent spat of reading about mountain men, and a fascination with the character Ratnose from Robert Jones’ Blood Sport, hence my name here (great modern fantasy, read it if you can find it). Every character that I play is really meant to ask a question. With this character I want to ask why the city is better than the wilderness? Is the elven way of life better than the human way? Is a green mountain worth protecting? Can enough arrows turn back the tide of progress, and in doing so are we corrupted? As I was thinking about this character I happen to find the metaorg information about the Phostwood, an elf and halfing sylvan paradise (supposedly) threatened by the growing strength of the Theocracy of the Pale. My character, chased out of the Phost, has gone into exile in Greyhawk, which ironically represents the very city life that he fights against. He hopes that by joining the arcane guild and learning how humans fight he can go back to the Phost and protect it. Will he be corrupted along the way? Can you ever really go back home? This is what I want to explore with this character. Hopefully now it makes more sense from at least a character perspective why I have made choice to start as a ranger (nature loving elf) and move into wizard (arcane combatant elf). Somewhere there may be a balance. What do I see myself doing in combat? Right now, enlarging the tanks, greasing the enemies, then using my bow. In the future, I am not sure. Most high level wizards I see start of with a haste, then blow things up with evocation spells. I still am not sure where I would fit. If I can get some long term buffs up, I would theoretically have sonic weapon and flame arrow on my bow & arrows. I image I would haste, or dim door the tanks into position, cast slow on the enemy, ray of enfeeblement an enemy tank, use smiting spell to put a touch of idiocy on an arrow against an enemy caster, or hit a tank with an arrow carrying a vampiric touch via smiting spell. |
| #20redfistJul 03, 2008 21:58:11 | I know this will sound rude - I really don't want it to. Please read this understanding that I'm sincere, not snarky. You really NEED to see an effective wizard in play! The experiences you've shared scare me (and I play a high level wizard). A wizard needs to play *smart* - hence the INT as the primary score. Think in terms of force multipliers. What can you do to make N people effective (instead of just yourself). My wizard has some pretty big damage spells - they're typically not the correct option for me. I personally pack debuff & battlefield control spells with a healthy sprinkling of damage. The later - is for when debuffs and battlefield are overkill and I just want to blast away. It's rare. The next time you're at a con, make a point of watching a higher level table with a wizard who knows what he's doing. Not someone who is trying to blind 1/2 their table or doesn't know what "line of sight" is. You'll become a convert... |
| #21tetsujinoniJul 04, 2008 0:13:27 | Think in terms of force multipliers. QFT Also think in terms of the fact that Wizard is all (ALL) about having the right tool in the toolkit to cover (nearly) any environmental complication facing the party. Big, beefy critter on the ground with no ranged tricks?
Things flying around dropping things on your head?
Huge crowd of prebuffed guys? Dispel magic. One guy with lots of toys? chain dispel targeting auras (requires lots of levels) Locked doors, no rogue? Covered. Oh, yeah.... and occasionally you blow something the heck up. |
| #22timlagorJul 04, 2008 18:43:51 | I'm not sure I can contribute much new at this point. There are plenty of threads discussing wizard design and tactics around these boards if you want to spend the time to go looking. The Character Optimisation Board in particular will yield gems if you look there (just don't pay too much attention to the more extreme combos -look out for a 'Handbook'; check the links in a 'sticky'd' thread). I will throw out a short list of the spells I consider particularly good at various levels. This is by no means exhaustive but should give you an idea of the sort of tactics you might want to use; you will certainly want some spells that aren't included here -this isn't a balanced list: Grease Colour Spray Sleep (up to APL4) Glitterdust False Life (not when you first get 2nd level spells; Empower later) See Invisibility (higher levels) Haste Anticipate Teleportation LOTS MORE D.Door Resilient Sphere Mass Fly Baleful Polymorph NONE of these do any damage at all ..and you should have some damage spells prepared once you get a few levels but they're not generally what you reach for when things look tough. You don't have to have an effective arcanist in the group ..it just makes things a lot easier if you do! |
| #23lomiatJul 05, 2008 0:49:05 | Okay, just decided to read and chime in on this thread... 1) Why have a wizard/arcanist in the party? The one thing the wizard/dedicated arcanist does better than any other class is to control the shape of the battle. There are other classes and builds that approximate what a wizard does naturally; for example, I have a cleric who does battlefield control. Yet the wizard has the greatest spell selection and most powerful spells by level for altering who attacks where... and when. (They're also pretty good at dropping save-or-die spells... but not without maxed-out INT and optimization throughout the build.) 2) Can you optimize a ranger-wizard? No. Any wizard that loses spell progression is not "optimized." Big deal. 3) Can you make an effective ranger-wizard? Yes. First, focus on the things a ranger-wizard might be able to do that a straight wizard might not. Skills are key, here, as is the Track feat. Find a way to keep working at the roles you can play that another wizard can not. If you can find access to the Ruathar PrC, that will prove fundamental to your build. Second, build your character in such a fashion that you consider, level by level, what you intend to do in any given combat, action by action. Example: Your party fights one big monster. Round 1: You hit it with Ray of Enfeeblement to debuff it. Subsequent rounds, you pelt it with arrows for damage. 2nd Example: Your party fights multiple NPCs, and you have Ray of Enfeeblement and Color Spray prepped - both excellent low-level spells. You recognize you can't reach the enemy caster, but as an archer, you swift cast Guided Shot and ready an action to disrupt his spellcasting by shooting him. You will develop a "style" by combining archery and magic. It won't always be the best style, nor will it always be the worst style. It won't, however, be the same style as some other generalist wizard. Remaining clear-sighted about what works well in the style (and what doesn't fit) will be essential to your build: As much if not more importantly than your selection of feats, you'll simply need to learn how to play the character. (And as you can see from the responses you've received, there are few players who can teach you how to play a ranger-wizard because there are precious few ranger-wizards out there.) 4) What sort of build should you select? If you want consistency, aim for as much archery and as little wizardry as possible... to the point of bypassing wizard for the most extreme consistency. Archers are nothing if not consistent. If you want versatility, aim for as much wizardry as possible - but in such a style that it supports your archery. I recommend pursuing a school of Specialization: Divination being the most optimal and obvious choice. Ranger 1 - Point-blank Wizard 2 - Scribe Scroll (use this!) Wizard 3 - Precise Shot (note how wonderful this will be for your ray spells: Use them to debuff, not to do damage. You can do damage with your bow.) Wizard 4 Wizard 5 Wizard 6 - Craft Wondrous Item (or Craft Magic Arms and Armor), Rapid Shot (note that by this point, you've lost 3 BAB; however, you can cast Heroism, Greater Magic Weapon, Haste and/or Flame Arrow... it starts to balance out) Wizard 7 - (wizard 6 is a good level for BAB and saves) Ruathar 8 - if you can get it! Ruathar 9 - Craft (the other Craft feat) Ruathar 10 - (By your 9th caster level, you will be able to do everything a wizard is expected to do. You will not be all-powerful, but you will be able to Teleport across the world, Scry your enemies from afar, cast powerful buff spells, strip enemies of their buffs, etc. This means that you once again have some freedom to pursue either a greater degree of archery or wizardry - Again, I promote wizardry, as your role seems to be to walk astride a fine balance.) Unseen Seer 11 (Note the skill prerequisites: You have to work those into the build with Ranger and Ruathar) Unseen Seer 12 - Quicken Spell (By this level, you now combine archery and magic seemlessly with a judicious choice of long-duration buffs, quickened spells and contingent spells to enhance your archery. When you want to control a battle, you use magic; it's your utility belt. When you want to do damage, you play archer.) Good luck. |
| #24ratnoseJul 05, 2008 9:26:41 | Wow. That last one really helped to bring it together. Nice job. |
| #25umiskatonicJul 16, 2008 13:28:07 | You know, it's possible that ranger/wizard/archer isn't the 100% most tweaked out character you can build, but this CAN be a fun character, and I HAVE seen it done, and there's no reason not to build one. Here's my criteria: 1) Will it be fun? If your idea of fun is squeesing every last bit of spellcasting mojo out of the rules, then maybe the answer is no. If you want a well-rounded, versatile character who fits into the campaign world, then maybe yes. Ranger/Wizard/Ruathar is a great way to go. While you can jam in another prestige class, you also get a feat with wiz 10, and there's no pre-reqs. My friend Clint has this build, and here's what I've seen. ------------------------------------------------------ Look for the long-term buff spells. Mage armor, false life, greater magic weapon are superb. Have them running. You know what this character does. Shoots arrows. If anything looks shady, like there might be a fight, throw in a 10/minute buff spell. Cat's grace, flame arrow, whatever You have ONE round to move and cast. After that, it's time for full attacks with arrows. You'll have better saves than most wizards. That's awesome. You don't need a sky-high INT, you cast buffs and ranged attacks. Scale it back, save some for Dex and Con. You will be crazy accurate with orbs and rays. Have one in reserve, some things are arrow-proof. At 6th level, take Craft Arms and Armor. You will keep up with the straight BAB archers only as long as your magic is as good as their strength and BAB. Aim for the +1 flaming, shocking, whatever. Learn Summon Monster one. Make bane arrows. Share them with the party. Arrow mind. Arrow mind. Arrow mind. Pearls of power can be made, and help boost up your lower spells/day. Make a few. Don't put all your arrows in one bag. Otherwise, you're a dimensional anchor away from being a guy with a improvised club and a 10 str. |