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| #1tuba1060Feb 07, 2008 20:17:44 | So I already posted basically this same question in the general D&D character optimization board, but I just found this board and figured it'd be wise to ask here. I just hit 6 with my Warmage and am curious about what feats and advance learning to take. My current plan is to go Warmage through 8th, and then switch to Fatespinner through 12th, by which point I'm assuming the campaign will have ended. I have no problem retraining my current feats, so feel free to suggest chain lists going all the way back to first. Here's my current character sheet: Character Sheet STR 8 DEX 12 CON 12 INT 19 WIS 8 CHA 16 BAP +3 Skills Concentration 9 ranks Craft: Smithing 2 ranks Intimidate 4 ranks Knowledge: Arcana 9 ranks Knowledge: History 6 ranks Knowledge: Nature 1 rank Knowledge: Religion 1 rank Knowledge: Dungeoneering 1 rank Knowledge: Planes 1 rank Ride 1 rank Spellcraft 9 ranks Feats Precise Shot Point Blank Shot Combat Casting Advance Learning Tenser's Floating Disk Artifact Gear Arcanist's Gloves (2 pair) Boots of the Winterlands Healing Belt +2 Headband of Int +1 Vest of Resistance |
| #2Jay_Ibero_911Feb 07, 2008 22:17:25 | So I already posted basically this same question in the general D&D character optimization board, but I just found this board and figured it'd be wise to ask here. |
| #3jamesmaissenFeb 07, 2008 22:28:22 | I just hit 6 with my Warmage and am curious about what feats and advance learning to take. My current plan is to go Warmage through 8th, and then switch to Fatespinner through 12th, by which point I'm assuming the campaign will have ended. Okay. I would not have gone with the 12DEX/CON but rather gone with a 14 in either INT or CHA to start (in general a 14 INT would be the choice). Or if resigned to the 12CON gone Grey Elf and work on edge. But c'est la vie. Metamagic School Focus lowers the final resultant level adjustment by 1, not by 1 for each. And you only get to do it 3 times a day. It's a nice feat, but much more powerful for Wizards. That said if you do go for it I would suggest conjuration rather than evocation. Moreover I would take a long look at sculpt spell rather than searing. Being able to sculpt blast of flame and evard's cheaply would be nice. Let alone empowering orbs and sculpting arcs of lightning at 10th level. Regardless I would, indeed, look to retrain yourself out of all 3 of your current feats. Empower spell is a must have... it has to be figured into your build at some place. Everything else is to taste. What feat did you take at 3rd level? As with retraining this will matter a bit as what you replace it with will become your 3rd level feat. When dealing with prereqs this is important. I would look to see which feats you want to have and work backwards from there. Sadly extra edge might appeal to you as you are overinvested in INT. It can be made to work, but I'm not sure if your build will support it well. The archetype for this is grey elf which would have +2 INT and +4 DEX over your current stats. -James |
| #4tuba1060Feb 07, 2008 23:30:42 | Yeah, I definitely regret my initial ability spread and wasted my lvl3 feat (Combat Casting). That fact is a lot of why I'm posting here, since clearly I have no idea how to properly set up my character. When I first started the character I was a bit over-impressed with the power of edge, and overspent on Int - granted, it's been nice to dish out a lot of extra damage, but I agree, I could have spent my abilities much better. But as you said, c'est la vie. Looking at all the options, retraining Combat Casting to Empower Spell is absolutely going to happen. From there, based on the advice given here and elsewhere, I think I want some combination of Spell Focus (likely evocation, as a lot of the big save requiring spells are evo, as are the spells I'd be pumping) Metamagic School Focus (even if it doesn't stack with multiple feats, it still means my empowers and split rays are cheaper), searing spell, sculpt spell, and split ray. Looking at that setup, I'm noticing that none of searing spell, sculpt spell, or split ray will be that useful until level 8, since basically all the stuff I'd want to apply any of them to would bump to level 4 spells. So with that said, I think the logical feat chains would be: (a) retrain combat casting for Empower spell at 3 take Sculpt at 6 Retrain precise shot for split ray at 7 retrain point blank for searing spell at 8 take extra edge at 9 (it's better than maximize for me, and I'll start getting more use out of it after lvl 8) this chain gives me all the metamagic toys possible (b) retrain Combat Casting for Empower Spell at 3 Take Sculpt Spell at 6 Take Split Ray at 9 this gives me the best metamagic toys (IMO) while keeping precise shot, which has been pretty critical thus far (c) retrain Combat Casting for Spell Focus (evocation) at 3 Take Empower Spell at 6 Retrain precise shot for Metamagic School Focus (evocation) at 7 Retrain point blank for Sculpt Spell at 8 Take Split Ray at 9 Take Searing Spell at 12 (if I get there) this is the preferred MMSF build IMO. the downside is I get sculpt and split ray later, but seeing how they gain maximum use at level 8, it's not that big a loss. So those are my three best options I think, based on where I am right now. What do people think, or is there another chain that I missed that would be better? Thanks |
| #5jamesmaissenFeb 08, 2008 0:32:16 | (c) retrain Combat Casting for Spell Focus (evocation) at 3 There's a problem here that I was getting at.. if you did the above here's what your character would look like: 1st level: MMSF (evoc), Sculpt Spell 3rd level: SF: Evoc 6th level: Empower. The problem is that you don't qualify for either feat at 1st level! *IF* you wanted the feats above, you would need to alter the order of them. Also *if* you go with extra edge then you will want to look at a few spells that don't get as much play that are on the warmage list. Melf's Acid Arrow for example can wind up doing as much damage (over time) as a scorching ray will for you. You trade the damage up front for insane range (long vs close) and no SR. Also acid tends to be a better element for damage than fire. But then again I'm biased as my warmage picked up a lesser rod of extend spell early on and has loved using it for acid arrow, ice storm and flame arrow. -James |
| #6tuba1060Feb 08, 2008 1:02:01 | hmm....you make a valid point....and the same problem comes up with almost any of the retraining paths, based on what I want to do....hmm.... also, will it be a problem if I retrain precise shot (which was technically my human bonus feat) as, say, empower spell, and then later retrain point blank (my standard lvl 1 spell) as one of the other metamagic feats? |
| #7jamesmaissenFeb 08, 2008 2:28:57 | also, will it be a problem if I retrain precise shot (which was technically my human bonus feat) as, say, empower spell, and then later retrain point blank (my standard lvl 1 spell) as one of the other metamagic feats? No. Consider what you will be at each step. Step 1. 1st Point Blank Shot Human Empower 3rd Combat Casting This is a legal character. Step2. 1st Sculpt Spell Human Empower 3rd Combat Casting This is a legal character as both the 1st level feat and the human bonus feat come at the same time. Even though Sculpt has a prereq of another metamagic, Empower satisfies this. Now I'm not saying that you should do the above.. just how it would be legal. I figure you could get by with retraining Combat Casting to Empower and taking Sculpt as your 6th level feat. Your Dex is low enough that having precise shot might be worth keeping.. what with the campaign ending at the end of the year. It's not sexy, but it can get the job done. I'm not the biggest fan of split ray (for you). It's good for enervation, but you won't get that spell (which is a shame.. it would make a lot of sense for warmages to get). Disintegrate is way too high to split ray (and not the best damage spell in the game anyway), and scorching ray isn't worth split raying. Ray of enfeeblement (another spell you won't get) is alright to split, but it's better empowered. At 9th you are better with the feat that lets you metamagic spells without increasing the casting time. If you want you can look to get rid of precise shot at that point in favor of quicken. By 12th you would want to pick up quicken regardless. If you can afford to get rid of precise at this point, then dropping point blank shot for another metamagic feat could be worthwhile. -James |
| #8mwao_dupFeb 08, 2008 7:11:14 | Also *if* you go with extra edge then you will want to look at a few spells that don't get as much play that are on the warmage list. Melf's Acid Arrow for example can wind up doing as much damage (over time) as a scorching ray will for you. You trade the damage up front for insane range (long vs close) and no SR. Also acid tends to be a better element for damage than fire. How is Melf's doing as much damage over time based on extra edge? You can only gain the benefits of Edge once per casting... |
| #9mwao_dupFeb 08, 2008 9:25:40 | I'd avoid the extra small bits of damage you can get from specialization or extra edge - +3 damage at the cost of a feat just isn't worth it. I'd keep it simple. Retrain Combat Casting to Empower Spell, take Sculpt Spell as your 6th level choice, take Split Ray as your 9th level feat. That'll give you a nice range of options. |
| #10kinevonFeb 08, 2008 10:00:39 | How is Melf's doing as much damage over time based on extra edge? You can only gain the benefits of Edge once per casting... From the Warmage information, description of the Warmage Edge, in Complete Arcane: "A single spell can never gain this extra damage more than once per casting. For instance, a fi reball deals the extra damage to all creatures in the area it affects. However, if a 3rd-level warmage casts magic missile and produces two missiles, only one of them (of the warmage’s choice) gains the extra damage, even if both missiles are directed at the same target. If a spell deals damage for more than 1 round, it deals this extra damage in each round." That last line is the important one for Melf's Acid Arrow, since it gets the extra damage for each round it lasts. |
| #11jamesmaissenFeb 08, 2008 10:05:37 | How is Melf's doing as much damage over time based on extra edge? You can only gain the benefits of Edge once per casting... The spell lasts for more than 1 round. It gives the extra damage on each round. Complete Arcane page 14. It's the last sentence of the first paragraph. And yeah, all things being optimal he'd be better off with a 14 DEX & CON and a 14 base INT. But since he's locked into a 16 INT then boosting it to a point where he can go for more edge effected spells makes some sense. -James |
| #12mwao_dupFeb 08, 2008 10:05:37 | That last line is the important one for Melf's Acid Arrow, since it gets the extra damage for each round it lasts. I stand corrected. Whoops. |
| #13jamesmaissenFeb 08, 2008 10:10:03 | take Split Ray as your 9th level feat. That'll give you a nice range of options. What is he going to split ray? Why not go for rapid metamagic at 9th instead? Opens him open to taken quicken either via retrain or at 12th. Not to mention giving him back a move action whenever he would be metamagicking spells. -James |
| #14solbergbFeb 08, 2008 12:34:12 | (c) retrain Combat Casting for Spell Focus (evocation) at 3 You're going to have to suffer with combat casting for a little longer to make this work. retrain precise for empower at level 6 take sculpt spell as level 6 feat 6 This nails down the key feats you're missing going forward, and does them in the right order to be legal. retrain point blank shot for spell focus evocation at 7 retrain combat casting for metamagic school focus at 8 The payoff for MMSF is really at level 8 anyway. Yes, you can play games with empowered scorching rays at L7, but being able to empower your area spells is really the key. Or sculpt your area spells with a L3 slot, if your L4 slots are burning off too fast. Actually I believe the following works. It certainly works with searing spell, which the OP had on his list of feats back on the CO board as a consideration. The cost is that you'll go all of level 6 without any metamagic feats, and gaining only a +1 to evocation DC's for your L3 and L6 feats. But the school focus combo comes together at level 7, and you keep point blank and precise combo longer, which may make up for the lost metamagic feats somewhat. L6 take retrain combat casting to spell focus evocation L6 take metamagic school focus as your L6 feat (even though you lack any metamagic feats, they aren't prereqs to this feat) L7 retrain precise shot for empower spell L8 retrain point blank shot for either searing spell or sculpt spell (there is no order to the human feat and the L1 feat that I'm aware of, you get both at the same time, so empower should qualify you for sculpt, but if I'm wrong then this is flawed unless we're talking about searing spell) |
| #15solbergbFeb 08, 2008 12:36:52 | What is he going to split ray? Yeah. Warmages really don't have any rays beyond scorching ray. Mostly they use orbs, which are explicitly not rays, as their single target spells. |
| #16jstorrieFeb 08, 2008 20:22:50 | Warmage players should keep in mind that Split Ray only ups Scorching Ray by 4d6–the damage of one ray–so it's not 'all that.' Empower is a generally better pick, and no-attack-roll spells are probably a better pick for a Warmage anyway. |
| #17jamesmaissenFeb 09, 2008 7:02:30 | no-attack-roll spells are probably a better pick for a Warmage anyway. A warmage has many different avenues. Attack roll spells are one of them. Depending on the build they are more or less viable. It breaks down to when they become viable for the particular build. The OP has Point Blank and Precise Shot, but is medium size with a 12 DEX. These tend to offset him into mediocre in this regard. Perhaps for him the break-point for attack roll spells is higher than for others designed to focus here. Depending on what you face this break point is either well within your range, well without, or in a fuzzy middle ground. The strength of the warmage is that when the situation comes up he has the option, but has other options when it is not optimal. It's good for the player of a warmage to have some ideas of expected damage breakdown similar to a melee person with power attack. If you are just looking to drop down reasonable single target damage (that is unlikely to drop a foe) then you would need to hit on a X before casting a lesser orb would be better than a magic missile or the like. Situations like energy resistance, range and SR of course will come into play to muddy the waters. Likewise the conflicting needs to ensure dropping some damage vs potential to do more and possibly take out the target. Again it's very similar to a fighter with power attack in tactical implications here. Sitting down and looking at odds of hitting with an 12th Caster level empowered scorching ray vs a single Orb spell can be an interesting exercise as well. Factoring in SR and then possible Energy Resistance to Fire (or whatever into which you could possibly substitute the scorching ray) makes it an issue. It can be somewhat complicated, but having some idea of it can help you avoid lowering your full potential needlessly. Again similar to the way a fighter with power attack can deal with DR and (to a lesser extent) miss chances. It's not required work, but getting some ideas here can be helpful. Many times the result is not all that significant, but sometimes they certainly can be. -James |
| #18timlagorFeb 09, 2008 8:45:36 | Not much point using Split Ray since Empower will do at least as much for Scorching Ray by the time you are likely to be using it. PBS+PS are good at low levels and worth retrianing later. Combat Casting seems to be clearly the first thing to retrain unless you need that slot to be part of a chain. I also like Improved Initiative. As a Warmage there is a lot to be said for Nonlethal Substitution as well. |
| #19KarmaInfernoFeb 10, 2008 23:23:20 | As a Warmage there is a lot to be said for Nonlethal Substitution as well. Oh gods yes. I keep running into NPCs that we either have to take alive, or keep getting situated among targets we have to attack. Another consideration is stuff against incorporeals. Most warmages pretty much have to rely on Magic Missile or Orb of Force when ghosts and wraiths show up, which isn't always great. Some way of getting area-of-effect spells that will hit them will be nice. -karma |
| #20Jay_Ibero_911Feb 11, 2008 15:32:06 | Oh gods yes. Was very nice when in one mod we were attacked by a wraith swarm and the warmage was flinging empowered transdimensional fireballs at them....they didn't last long at all... |
| #21solbergbFeb 11, 2008 22:39:41 | Yes...you can go for maximum boom but limit yourself to the (fairly broad) options a warmage has. You can go with the basic boom warmage+empower (and probably later maximize or rapid+quicken) provide but focus on making the list more flexible (energy sub+nonlethal sub, transdimensional and sculpt if you can fit them all in). There is also a significant group that work to expand the spell list, although that usually requires significant preplanning to work well, starting with your attribute setup. It's easier to just toss a few points in UMD and get some out of combat utility spells and long duration buffs on scrolls/wands. |
| #22koushiroFeb 17, 2008 2:37:24 | The two best feats I've found for my sorcerer when it comes to damage would have to be Sculpt Spell and Empower Spell. Point blank and precise shot are not wasted feats for you, your still a wizard BAB progression and you can still miss someone's touch AC when they've got cover and your shooting into melee. +1 to hit and damage are worth it for being up close and your edge helps to make for some extra nastiness especially if you manage to crit something. +4(5) damage is something you can count on. That's +12(15) for a fully powered scorching ray barrage for example without any level adjustment. Extra Edge isn't really worth it, and your save DCs are never going to be what the crazy grey elf wizards who gimpped everything to have a 20 INT is going to be. It's just not going to happen and your better off not trying to mimic them. Most stated NPCs in Living Greyhawk, if your not playing an adaptable, are designed to make retarded saving throws all the time. A lot of your best spells don't even offer saves or SR. Some can even be thrown into or through antimagic fields! How awesome is that? :D |
| #23copperwyrmlingFeb 17, 2008 13:36:43 | Point blank and precise shot are not wasted feats for you, your still a wizard BAB progression and you can still miss someone's touch AC when they've got cover and your shooting into melee. +1 to hit and damage are worth it for being up close and your edge helps to make for some extra nastiness especially if you manage to crit something. +4(5) damage is something you can count on. That's +12(15) for a fully powered scorching ray barrage for example without any level adjustment. Edge doesn't add separately to each ray in a scorching ray, only to the first - Point Blank Shot works the same way, with the +1 damage only applying to the first ray, although the +1 to hit applies to all rays. |
| #24koushiroFeb 17, 2008 21:54:23 | Why would the +1 damage from Point Blank Shot only apply to the first ray? You make 3 separate ranged attacks and the Complete Arcane rules in the allowance of the feat for use on them. I admit I forgot about the edge thing and all. S'what I get for not having books open in front of me. |
| #25Jay_Ibero_911Feb 17, 2008 23:14:18 | Why would the +1 damage from Point Blank Shot only apply to the first ray? You make 3 separate ranged attacks and the Complete Arcane rules in the allowance of the feat for use on them. Some people consider the bonus damage from Point Blank Shot to be precisions damage even though it doesn't call it such, in which case it would only apply to one of the rays in a volley. |
| #26copperwyrmlingFeb 17, 2008 23:45:31 | Some people consider the bonus damage from Point Blank Shot to be precisions damage even though it doesn't call it such, in which case it would only apply to one of the rays in a volley. It doesn't have anything to do with whether or not it's precision damage (although that is relevant to whether the Point Blank Shot damage bonus applies multiple times when using Manyshot). The rule is in Complete Arcane on p86 under "Multiple Hits", in the "Weaponlike Spells" section - it states that when a spell involves multiple strikes in the same round, any bonus damage applies only to the first attack, and gives Scorching Ray + Point Blank Shot as an example. |
| #27Jay_Ibero_911Feb 18, 2008 14:50:58 | It doesn't have anything to do with whether or not it's precision damage (although that is relevant to whether the Point Blank Shot damage bonus applies multiple times when using Manyshot). The rule is in Complete Arcane on p86 under "Multiple Hits", in the "Weaponlike Spells" section - it states that when a spell involves multiple strikes in the same round, any bonus damage applies only to the first attack, and gives Scorching Ray + Point Blank Shot as an example. Oh...heh...I never really looked at that part closely...I knew it reference sneak attack, but didn't see the example specifically called out point blank shot... |
| #28koushiroFeb 23, 2008 1:53:42 | I'm in the same boat. Either way, just enjoy blowing stuff up. Yay! Plus Orb of Force is awesome. |
| #29paulharriesMar 22, 2008 0:00:48 | Hi Depending on your Wis score & alignment Arcane Disciple might be worth a look. Healing, Celerity & Travel all have 'useful' non-damaging spells that Warmages don't normally have. As for Advanced learning I reckon on Tenser's Disk & Leomund's Hut. Cheers Paul H |
| #30jamesmaissenMar 22, 2008 12:39:12 | Hi The problem being here that for the wisdom score you are going to sacrifice points elsewhere. You want CHA (its the casting stat), CON (you like to live), DEX (all those ranged touch spells), and INT (edge and skills) which leaves STR and WIS as dump stats. Heck you first decide if you like the edge ability. Despite people's claims is a nice ability, just not for everything.. the same way that DEX isn't helping you when you are casting fireballs. If you don't mind sacrificing that then you need to decide upon getting a WIS score or going with the 18 CHA to start out and be a 'real' arcanist in terms of save DCs. If you've sacrificed the INT *and* don't mind a 16 starting CHA then you could look to spend a feat (or two) to get a few once a day spells. That's assuming you don't want a STR score (which is a weird build try for a warmage so I will assume it). It's a long road in the quest for a few more spells. Most people look to pick up those spells because they want to play the warmage like a different archetype and feel 'constrained'. In that case they are playing with square pegs around the round holes. -James |
| #31timlagorMar 25, 2008 10:29:38 | Also bear in mind that it's nice to have a few skill points (Int again) |
| #32katrickMar 28, 2008 13:27:08 | At 8th level with Energy Sub and Admixture(Acid) and MMSF(Evoc) you can be doing 10d6 Shocking acid grasps, or Empowered Scorching's at app 12d6, a melf's Fire Acid Arrow can't catch these little beauties at 4d4/round twice. Or at 6th, Split Ray of Enfeeble, hit the same baddie to ensure a better drain result. And later oooh Split Disintigrates!! A certain well known Gnome warmage, who doesn't have any dex and only uses AoE's etc, has proved extremely effective. It's a matter of playing to your strengths. With only 12 in dex, you'll need PBS+PS, and every spell level has a ranged touch spell. There are more Evoc spells than Conjuration, so i would head that way. Not much in the way of utility so UMD. Mithrall!!!! say no more Everything you have chosen is fine and remeber if others don't like your build INTIMIDATE is a class skill that runs of CHA katrick |