Monk Sorcerer build - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Monk Sorcerer build

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
ramacass
May 07, 2008 9:43:03 Hi all I'm looking for any and all advice for a monk sorcerer build for my friend.

What we have so far
human
str:14 dex 14 con 12 int 10 wis 14 cha 12

He thinks he'll take fist of stone and mage armor as his spells and he'll use a spike chain to get extra AoO

Any feats that let him freely cross between the classes? Feat choice in general?

Thanks
#2
copperwyrmling
May 07, 2008 10:08:37 Have a look at the Ascetic Mage feat (Complete Adventurer) and the Enlightened Fist prestige class (Complete Warrior iirc). The former will let you use Cha instead of Wis to AC and get a few other bonuses, which might be useful as it allows you to lower Wisdom and get back some points for other stats. I'd be very dubious about taking Con 12 with a low-AC light infantry meleer like a typical monk, especially one who's also dipping into a d4-HD class: spend the six points to get to Con 14. You may want to drop Int to 8: my friends who've played monks have generally said that Str 16 is a very good thing, especially if you're planning to trip and grapple.
#3
_metz_
May 07, 2008 10:19:22
Hi all I'm looking for any and all advice for a monk sorcerer build for my friend.

What we have so far
human
str:14 dex 14 con 12 int 10 wis 14 cha 12

He thinks he'll take fist of stone and mage armor as his spells and he'll use a spike chain to get extra AoO

Any feats that let him freely cross between the classes? Feat choice in general?

Thanks

Things that work really well with monk/sorceror:

1. Enlightened fist
2. Wood Elf
3. Ascetic Mage
4. Arcane Strike
5. Dragon Disciple

There is no really good way to get all of those in a 15th level build however.
#4
rpgdcj
May 07, 2008 11:52:44 Copper's got some very good points.

How about this?

Human
Str 15 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 10 Cha 14

1. Monk (Bonus feat Stunning Fist), Combat Reflexes, Combat Casting
2. Monk (Bonus feat Fiery Fist)
3. Sorcerer, Weapon Focus(unarmed strike)
4. Sorcerer, bump Charisma
5. Sorcerer
6. Sorcerer, Ascetic Mage
7. Enlightened Fist
8. Enlightened Fist, bump Charisma

Notes:

You can't choose Wood Elf unless you put a lot of points in Intelligence. Otherwise, you won't have enough skill points to qualify for Enlightened Fist.

Use leather armor and maybe a masterwork buckler until you get the sorcerer levels. That'll at least help when you are most vulnerable due to the low wisdom.

You could take Iron Will at level one instead of Combat Casting, and retrain it to Weapon Focus at level three once the sorcerer will saves kick in.

Be careful in melee; you'll be easy to hit and not have a ton of HP.

Enlightened Fist increases the monk's unarmed damage. By level 9, you might want to consider Improved Natural Attack as a possible feat (at that point, it would increase your unarmed strike damage from 1d8 to 2d6).
#5
Jay_Ibero_911
May 07, 2008 12:22:01
Copper's got some very good points.

How about this?

Human
Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 10 Cha 12

1. Monk (Bonus feat Stunning Fist), Improved Grapple, Combat Casting
2. Monk (Bonus feat Combat Reflexes)
3. Sorcerer, Weapon Focus(unarmed strike)
4. Sorcerer, bump Charisma
5. Sorcerer
6. Sorcerer, Ascetic Mage
7. Enlightened Fist
8. Enlightened Fist, bump Charisma

Notes:

You can't choose Wood Elf unless you put a lot of points in Intelligence. Otherwise, you won't have enough skill points to qualify for Enlightened Fist.

Use leather armor and maybe a masterwork buckler until you get the sorcerer levels. That'll at least help when you are most vulnerable due to the low wisdom.

You could take Iron Will at level one instead of Combat Casting, and retrain it to Weapon Focus at level three once the sorcerer will saves kick in.

Be careful in melee; you'll be easy to hit and not have a ton of HP.

Enlightened Fist increases the monk's unarmed damage. By level 9, you might want to consider Improved Natural Attack as a possible feat (at that point, it would increase your unarmed strike damage from 1d8 to 2d6).

Given the fact that this is a sorcerer base ascetic mage, you need a MUCH higher charisma. Charisma powers your spells AND AC in that combo. There's no point in taking improved grapple since with such low BAB your grapple will be pitiful anyway. Instead of Combat Reflexes, take Fiery Fist as your 2nd monk bonus feat, so you can spend a swift action on fiery fist, then a free action to add 1d6 electricity (Need Rapid Stunning to use 2 stun attempts in the same round though), and another free action on arcane strike, then flurry and pummel. Drop STR to 15 and make that your first bump and push CHA up to 14.
#6
bitznarf
May 07, 2008 12:47:30 I'd personally probably drop Wis to and and bump Cha to 14 with those points.

One other note: every level based stat bump (ie, at 4, 8, etc.) should be worth at least 2 build points as I see it.
#7
rpgdcj
May 07, 2008 12:49:07
Given the fact that this is a sorcerer base ascetic mage, you need a MUCH higher charisma. Charisma powers your spells AND AC in that combo. There's no point in taking improved grapple since with such low BAB your grapple will be pitiful anyway. Instead of Combat Reflexes, take Fiery Fist as your 2nd monk bonus feat, so you can spend a swift action on fiery fist, then a free action to add 1d6 electricity (Need Rapid Stunning to use 2 stun attempts in the same round though), and another free action on arcane strike, then flurry and pummel. Drop STR to 15 and make that your first bump and push CHA up to 14.

Granted. I kinda threw out the improved grapple 'cause that's what I like to do, but you're right it doesn't quite make sense here. You'll need to keep combat reflexes, though, since it's a pre-req for rapid stunning (if that's the way you want to go). Ascetic Mage doesn't allow sorcerer levels to stack for stunning attempts, so those will be a limited resource. They do stack with enlightened fist, though.

In summary, take combat reflexes at level one instead of improved grapple, and fiery fist as the 2nd level monk bonus feat. And do the Str 15/Cha 14 thing. If you're not worried about grappling, you should also have no qualms about casting Enlarge Person on yourself, either (Dex 14 means you won't qualify for improved grapple while enlarged).
#8
umiskatonic
May 07, 2008 19:02:27 Don't forget the power of necromancy. THere are a lot of good touch spells out there.

Two levels of paladin help your HP and saves, at the expense of spellcasting. It's not automatically a bad move, I'll toss it out as an option.

Check the regular d20 optimization board. there are already some threads on how to build a great enlightened fist. Just remember that much advice is not LG legal.

You'll never have the stats you want. Start thinking about stat bump items a little earlier than normal. Sorcerors and monks don't need weapons or armor, so it's not that hard to do.
#9
hariman
May 07, 2008 20:08:25 False Life and Sonic Weapon will be great second level spells for this character.

False Life is always good because HP = life. (It has saved my sorcerer more than once.)

Sonic Weapon adds a D6 damage to either your weapon or someone else's weapon for a minute a level.

Fist of Stone is good, but it's always a 1 minute duration that never scales. I'm pretty sure that it's slam attack doesn't benefit from monk unarmed damage increases. But it still adds to your attack rolls, so it's pretty good.
#10
ramacass
May 07, 2008 21:39:07 The enightened fist seems like a strong build but I think it's a bit complicated as my friend is new to D&D. There's just a bit too much going on that I think he'll be overwhelmed.

I think he'll most likely go for the single level of sorcerer and ascetic mage

Are there any pure monk builds that anyone recomends?
#11
rpgdcj
May 07, 2008 22:01:24 Enlightened Fist isn't that much more complicated than Monk/Sorcerer, which is how this thread started. If you start with the two levels of Monk, he can decide whether he'd like to stick with just the Monk at that point, or head into Sorcerer. The plan isn't set in stone.

By the way, you can't take Ascetic Mage with a single level of Sorcerer, as it has a prerequisite of being able to cast 2nd level arcane spells. That means a minimum of Sorcerer 4.

As for straight Monk, sure, build something that takes advantage of the melee "tricks" they can do. But be aware of the best way to handle a Monk: you generally have lower attacks, damage and AC compared with frontline fighters, so try not to be the one standing there when the bad guy decides to full-attack. Use mobility, fast speed and tumbling to get to the back where the spell casters like to hang out, and grapple them. Or take Improved Trip, and knock down the big fighters. Stunning is another option, but can be risky; you can take a chance and charge the bad guy with a stun, but if you miss, or he makes his save, you're a sitting duck.

Do a search in this forum; I found some good Monk advice here when I was starting out, and it's still there.
#12
_metz_
May 07, 2008 22:02:27
The enightened fist seems like a strong build but I think it's a bit complicated as my friend is new to D&D. There's just a bit too much going on that I think he'll be overwhelmed.

I think he'll most likely go for the single level of sorcerer and ascetic mage

Are there any pure monk builds that anyone recomends?

copper posted at the same time as me...

Ascetic mage requires 2nd level arcane spells, you need more than one level of sorceror.

If you are only taking the one level, I would suggest spells like Mage Armour and shield, and then take 4 levels of Dragon Disciple.
#13
mwao_dup
May 08, 2008 6:36:23 By the way, Monk Sorcerers can be insanely good at grappling:
Improved Grapple +4
Scorpion Claws +4(via Master's Touch, no need for a feat - helps with wielding a guisarme or spiked chain, too)
Fist of Stone +3(at low levels)
Enlarge Person +5 - can be tricky with the Dex penalty
Str 16 +3

At 3rd level, add +1 for BAB. That's a total of +20...and they're capable of casting all the spells required.

If your friend is new to D&D, I wouldn't hand him a Monk build - they're tricky to play well and one of the reasons people often think of Monks as being so weak is they've seen someone new to D&D playing one so badly.
#14
umiskatonic
May 08, 2008 9:34:21 Monk with a level of favored soul or cleric or druid ain't bad either. You can build a standard monk, forget about charisma, and start playing. If you decide you want some spellcasting, those divine classes are there, waiting for you.
#15
Jay_Ibero_911
May 08, 2008 10:20:07
Monk with a level of favored soul or cleric or druid ain't bad either. You can build a standard monk, forget about charisma, and start playing. If you decide you want some spellcasting, those divine classes are there, waiting for you.

Of course you could follow that into Sacred Fist too.
#16
_metz_
May 08, 2008 10:56:06
Of course you could follow that into Sacred Fist too.

Sacred fists are REALLY screwed by DR...

The not being allowed any weapons can really hurt. Especially as now there are heaps of open monk weapons. (And you can flurry with gauntlets)
#17
timlagor
May 08, 2008 19:14:17 If you go monk-Sorceror you really should make a beeline for Enlightened Fist but it's not for the newbie.
#18
Jay_Ibero_911
May 08, 2008 23:22:03
Sacred fists are REALLY screwed by DR...

The not being allowed any weapons can really hurt. Especially as now there are heaps of open monk weapons. (And you can flurry with gauntlets)

Only DR silver really...there are open feats and spells, and popular access items to make his unarmed strikes count as: Magic, Cold Iron, Adamantine, Lawful/Chaotic/Good based on own alignment. There's also the "Water Splitting Stone" feat to get +4 damage vs. creatures with DR you don't bypass. Versatile unarmed strike helps with damage type DR.
#19
umiskatonic
May 09, 2008 11:51:01 Sacred Fist really benefits from thoughtful selection of domains. If you grab a domain like fire, you can get around DR by using attack magic.

And, remember that a druid/monk/sacred fist is also viable. Produce Flame alone should take you far. For added fun, throw in the wild shape feats, like Eagle's wings.
#20
Jay_Ibero_911
May 09, 2008 15:12:08
Sacred Fist really benefits from thoughtful selection of domains. If you grab a domain like fire, you can get around DR by using attack magic.

And, remember that a druid/monk/sacred fist is also viable. Produce Flame alone should take you far. For added fun, throw in the wild shape feats, like Eagle's wings.

Well the wild feat route would require at least 5 druid levels...and even more levels or extra wild shape feats to make it worthwhile...at that point you may as well just be a straight Druid...Domains DO make a big difference though.
#21
Black_Egg
May 09, 2008 16:46:44 I tried putting an Enlightened Fist together a while back, and I could never make it fit together the way I wanted. Ascetic Mage is an awfully nice feat, but it doesn't come on line until level 6 at best. The character's early-on AC, offense and casting capability were garbage and with all of the character's tricks combined it didn't seem like they'd ever really catch up to even a basic Gish.

Maybe others can put an Enlightened Fist together better than I could. Deciding that you don't care at all about your Armor Class would definitely help. (But if you don't care about AC, Ascetic Mage becomes nothing more than a ghetto Arcane Strike) I can say that I found building an Enlightened Fist to be a frustrating experience, though.

An otherwise pure Monk would be making a huge commitment to 'dip' for Ascetic Mage since they'd have to take four levels of Sorcerer to get the feat going. Second level Sorcerer spells might be worth it, but that's an awfully big dip.

An otherwise pure Sorcerer could take the caster level hit to snag Ascetic Mage for a big AC boost if they wanted, though. Dropping a spell level usually isn't advisable but I'm sure there's something crazy you could do with it...Tenser's Transformation maybe.
#22
jstorrie
May 09, 2008 17:50:26 Hexblade 5 / Monk 2 is another potential entry to Enlightened Fist which could work out all right for you–spellcasting potential is quite a bit lower, but you do get Evasion, Mettle, the Hexblade save bonus, the Hexblade ACF (if you're playing Greyhawk, at least), and some very good touch spells to use with the Enlightened Fist class powers. Hexblades can proficiently wield a good reach weapon, wear light armor instead of trying to get Ascetic Mage to work, and have a higher BAB to make up for the hits from Monk/EF. Memento access will make or break this build, though, since Hexblades don't have many spells per day.
#23
mwao_dup
May 09, 2008 18:22:40 This is my build:
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 14
1: Monk 1: Stunning Fist, IUS, Combat Casting, Improved Grapple
2: Monk 2: Combat Reflexes
3: Sorcerer 1: Practiced Spellcaster
4: Paladin 1: Str 17
5: Paladin 2
6: Sorcerer 2: CWI
7: Sorcerer 3
8: Enlightened Fist 1: Str 18
9: Enlightened Fist 2: Ascetic Mage
10: Enlightened Fist 3
11: Enlightened Fist 4
12: Enlightened Fist 5: Arcane Strike: Str 19
13: Enlightened Fist 6
14: Enlightened Fist 7
15: Enlightened Fist 8: ?

1-2: Did lots of grapple - bought a MW Silver Greatsword for "Power Attack", carried a guisarme for AoOs. Found access to 50 gp potions of Enlarge Person.
3: Fist of Stone, Blades of Flame, picked up a longspear
4: Used Guisarme
6: Had Master's Touch, Fist of Stone, crafted Gloves of Dex to deal with Enlarge Person problems.
8-10: Started transitioning to having Grapple for emergancies and being able to afford AC.
11-13: Having an actual AC, doing actual damage
14: Hold Ray comes online, does a huge amount of damage, has a high AC
15: Not sure - might be nice to have an extra cohort, Improved Natural Attack, or Power Attack. Though I'm likely to avoid Power Attack just because.

Note what the build did - from levels 1-8, it was a superstrong grappler - master's touch to use Scorpion Claws, Fist of Stone for +6 Str bonus for purposes of Grapples, combat reflexes to use a reach weapon + blades of flame to do battlefield control.

Then from levels 8-13, it was transitioning from a grappler to a high damage/AC/Fast BDF. Some of those levels were difficult, because she didn't have a high enough AC to do stand toe to toe and she wasn't in a party where she could consistently expect everyone else to hold down the enemy nor could she consistently nail down enemies with Grapple - she retrained away crucial grapple spells for more damage/AC oriented spells. Especially Master's Touch.
#24
timlagor
May 09, 2008 21:33:42 I did an Enlightened Fist Wizard build that I was pretty happy with once upon a time but never got around to playing it.

You give up Ascetic Mage but the Feats are pretty tight anyway and getting more better spells earlier and being allowed variety counts for a good deal (pretty sure you get into EF quicker too) -losing Alter Self really hurt however.
#25
verenal
May 10, 2008 6:38:05 Something you should remember.

Living Greyhawk wil end this year. Therefore new characters won't reach high levels. If you make a new character, you shouldn't think about what combination of classes it'll have or tricks it'll use at level 15, when 5th or 6th level is likely the higest the character will see, and only if you play him a lot.

Then again, if you continue to play the character after LG has ended, this message can be disregarded.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ramacass May 07, 2008 9:43:03	Hi all I'm looking for any and all advice for a monk sorcerer build for my friend. What we have so far human str:14 dex 14 con 12 int 10 wis 14 cha 12 He thinks he'll take fist of stone and mage armor as his spells and he'll use a spike chain to get extra AoO Any feats that let him freely cross between the classes? Feat choice in general? Thanks
#2 copperwyrmling May 07, 2008 10:08:37	Have a look at the Ascetic Mage feat (Complete Adventurer) and the Enlightened Fist prestige class (Complete Warrior iirc). The former will let you use Cha instead of Wis to AC and get a few other bonuses, which might be useful as it allows you to lower Wisdom and get back some points for other stats. I'd be very dubious about taking Con 12 with a low-AC light infantry meleer like a typical monk, especially one who's also dipping into a d4-HD class: spend the six points to get to Con 14. You may want to drop Int to 8: my friends who've played monks have generally said that Str 16 is a very good thing, especially if you're planning to trip and grapple.
#3 _metz_ May 07, 2008 10:19:22	Hi all I'm looking for any and all advice for a monk sorcerer build for my friend. What we have so far human str:14 dex 14 con 12 int 10 wis 14 cha 12 He thinks he'll take fist of stone and mage armor as his spells and he'll use a spike chain to get extra AoO Any feats that let him freely cross between the classes? Feat choice in general? Thanks Things that work really well with monk/sorceror: 1. Enlightened fist 2. Wood Elf 3. Ascetic Mage 4. Arcane Strike 5. Dragon Disciple There is no really good way to get all of those in a 15th level build however.
#4 rpgdcj May 07, 2008 11:52:44	Copper's got some very good points. How about this? Human Str 15 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 10 Cha 14 1. Monk (Bonus feat Stunning Fist), Combat Reflexes, Combat Casting 2. Monk (Bonus feat Fiery Fist) 3. Sorcerer, Weapon Focus(unarmed strike) 4. Sorcerer, bump Charisma 5. Sorcerer 6. Sorcerer, Ascetic Mage 7. Enlightened Fist 8. Enlightened Fist, bump Charisma Notes: You can't choose Wood Elf unless you put a lot of points in Intelligence. Otherwise, you won't have enough skill points to qualify for Enlightened Fist. Use leather armor and maybe a masterwork buckler until you get the sorcerer levels. That'll at least help when you are most vulnerable due to the low wisdom. You could take Iron Will at level one instead of Combat Casting, and retrain it to Weapon Focus at level three once the sorcerer will saves kick in. Be careful in melee; you'll be easy to hit and not have a ton of HP. Enlightened Fist increases the monk's unarmed damage. By level 9, you might want to consider Improved Natural Attack as a possible feat (at that point, it would increase your unarmed strike damage from 1d8 to 2d6).
#5 Jay_Ibero_911 May 07, 2008 12:22:01	Copper's got some very good points. How about this? Human Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 10 Cha 12 1. Monk (Bonus feat Stunning Fist), Improved Grapple, Combat Casting 2. Monk (Bonus feat Combat Reflexes) 3. Sorcerer, Weapon Focus(unarmed strike) 4. Sorcerer, bump Charisma 5. Sorcerer 6. Sorcerer, Ascetic Mage 7. Enlightened Fist 8. Enlightened Fist, bump Charisma Notes: You can't choose Wood Elf unless you put a lot of points in Intelligence. Otherwise, you won't have enough skill points to qualify for Enlightened Fist. Use leather armor and maybe a masterwork buckler until you get the sorcerer levels. That'll at least help when you are most vulnerable due to the low wisdom. You could take Iron Will at level one instead of Combat Casting, and retrain it to Weapon Focus at level three once the sorcerer will saves kick in. Be careful in melee; you'll be easy to hit and not have a ton of HP. Enlightened Fist increases the monk's unarmed damage. By level 9, you might want to consider Improved Natural Attack as a possible feat (at that point, it would increase your unarmed strike damage from 1d8 to 2d6). Given the fact that this is a sorcerer base ascetic mage, you need a MUCH higher charisma. Charisma powers your spells AND AC in that combo. There's no point in taking improved grapple since with such low BAB your grapple will be pitiful anyway. Instead of Combat Reflexes, take Fiery Fist as your 2nd monk bonus feat, so you can spend a swift action on fiery fist, then a free action to add 1d6 electricity (Need Rapid Stunning to use 2 stun attempts in the same round though), and another free action on arcane strike, then flurry and pummel. Drop STR to 15 and make that your first bump and push CHA up to 14.
#6 bitznarf May 07, 2008 12:47:30	I'd personally probably drop Wis to and and bump Cha to 14 with those points. One other note: every level based stat bump (ie, at 4, 8, etc.) should be worth at least 2 build points as I see it.
#7 rpgdcj May 07, 2008 12:49:07	Given the fact that this is a sorcerer base ascetic mage, you need a MUCH higher charisma. Charisma powers your spells AND AC in that combo. There's no point in taking improved grapple since with such low BAB your grapple will be pitiful anyway. Instead of Combat Reflexes, take Fiery Fist as your 2nd monk bonus feat, so you can spend a swift action on fiery fist, then a free action to add 1d6 electricity (Need Rapid Stunning to use 2 stun attempts in the same round though), and another free action on arcane strike, then flurry and pummel. Drop STR to 15 and make that your first bump and push CHA up to 14. Granted. I kinda threw out the improved grapple 'cause that's what I like to do, but you're right it doesn't quite make sense here. You'll need to keep combat reflexes, though, since it's a pre-req for rapid stunning (if that's the way you want to go). Ascetic Mage doesn't allow sorcerer levels to stack for stunning attempts, so those will be a limited resource. They do stack with enlightened fist, though. In summary, take combat reflexes at level one instead of improved grapple, and fiery fist as the 2nd level monk bonus feat. And do the Str 15/Cha 14 thing. If you're not worried about grappling, you should also have no qualms about casting Enlarge Person on yourself, either (Dex 14 means you won't qualify for improved grapple while enlarged).
#8 umiskatonic May 07, 2008 19:02:27	Don't forget the power of necromancy. THere are a lot of good touch spells out there. Two levels of paladin help your HP and saves, at the expense of spellcasting. It's not automatically a bad move, I'll toss it out as an option. Check the regular d20 optimization board. there are already some threads on how to build a great enlightened fist. Just remember that much advice is not LG legal. You'll never have the stats you want. Start thinking about stat bump items a little earlier than normal. Sorcerors and monks don't need weapons or armor, so it's not that hard to do.
#9 hariman May 07, 2008 20:08:25	False Life and Sonic Weapon will be great second level spells for this character. False Life is always good because HP = life. (It has saved my sorcerer more than once.) Sonic Weapon adds a D6 damage to either your weapon or someone else's weapon for a minute a level. Fist of Stone is good, but it's always a 1 minute duration that never scales. I'm pretty sure that it's slam attack doesn't benefit from monk unarmed damage increases. But it still adds to your attack rolls, so it's pretty good.
#10 ramacass May 07, 2008 21:39:07	The enightened fist seems like a strong build but I think it's a bit complicated as my friend is new to D&D. There's just a bit too much going on that I think he'll be overwhelmed. I think he'll most likely go for the single level of sorcerer and ascetic mage Are there any pure monk builds that anyone recomends?
#11 rpgdcj May 07, 2008 22:01:24	Enlightened Fist isn't that much more complicated than Monk/Sorcerer, which is how this thread started. If you start with the two levels of Monk, he can decide whether he'd like to stick with just the Monk at that point, or head into Sorcerer. The plan isn't set in stone. By the way, you can't take Ascetic Mage with a single level of Sorcerer, as it has a prerequisite of being able to cast 2nd level arcane spells. That means a minimum of Sorcerer 4. As for straight Monk, sure, build something that takes advantage of the melee "tricks" they can do. But be aware of the best way to handle a Monk: you generally have lower attacks, damage and AC compared with frontline fighters, so try not to be the one standing there when the bad guy decides to full-attack. Use mobility, fast speed and tumbling to get to the back where the spell casters like to hang out, and grapple them. Or take Improved Trip, and knock down the big fighters. Stunning is another option, but can be risky; you can take a chance and charge the bad guy with a stun, but if you miss, or he makes his save, you're a sitting duck. Do a search in this forum; I found some good Monk advice here when I was starting out, and it's still there.
#12 _metz_ May 07, 2008 22:02:27	The enightened fist seems like a strong build but I think it's a bit complicated as my friend is new to D&D. There's just a bit too much going on that I think he'll be overwhelmed. I think he'll most likely go for the single level of sorcerer and ascetic mage Are there any pure monk builds that anyone recomends? copper posted at the same time as me... Ascetic mage requires 2nd level arcane spells, you need more than one level of sorceror. If you are only taking the one level, I would suggest spells like Mage Armour and shield, and then take 4 levels of Dragon Disciple.
#13 mwao_dup May 08, 2008 6:36:23	By the way, Monk Sorcerers can be insanely good at grappling: Improved Grapple +4 Scorpion Claws +4(via Master's Touch, no need for a feat - helps with wielding a guisarme or spiked chain, too) Fist of Stone +3(at low levels) Enlarge Person +5 - can be tricky with the Dex penalty Str 16 +3 At 3rd level, add +1 for BAB. That's a total of +20...and they're capable of casting all the spells required. If your friend is new to D&D, I wouldn't hand him a Monk build - they're tricky to play well and one of the reasons people often think of Monks as being so weak is they've seen someone new to D&D playing one so badly.
#14 umiskatonic May 08, 2008 9:34:21	Monk with a level of favored soul or cleric or druid ain't bad either. You can build a standard monk, forget about charisma, and start playing. If you decide you want some spellcasting, those divine classes are there, waiting for you.
#15 Jay_Ibero_911 May 08, 2008 10:20:07	Monk with a level of favored soul or cleric or druid ain't bad either. You can build a standard monk, forget about charisma, and start playing. If you decide you want some spellcasting, those divine classes are there, waiting for you. Of course you could follow that into Sacred Fist too.
#16 _metz_ May 08, 2008 10:56:06	Of course you could follow that into Sacred Fist too. Sacred fists are REALLY screwed by DR... The not being allowed any weapons can really hurt. Especially as now there are heaps of open monk weapons. (And you can flurry with gauntlets)
#17 timlagor May 08, 2008 19:14:17	If you go monk-Sorceror you really should make a beeline for Enlightened Fist but it's not for the newbie.
#18 Jay_Ibero_911 May 08, 2008 23:22:03	Sacred fists are REALLY screwed by DR... The not being allowed any weapons can really hurt. Especially as now there are heaps of open monk weapons. (And you can flurry with gauntlets) Only DR silver really...there are open feats and spells, and popular access items to make his unarmed strikes count as: Magic, Cold Iron, Adamantine, Lawful/Chaotic/Good based on own alignment. There's also the "Water Splitting Stone" feat to get +4 damage vs. creatures with DR you don't bypass. Versatile unarmed strike helps with damage type DR.
#19 umiskatonic May 09, 2008 11:51:01	Sacred Fist really benefits from thoughtful selection of domains. If you grab a domain like fire, you can get around DR by using attack magic. And, remember that a druid/monk/sacred fist is also viable. Produce Flame alone should take you far. For added fun, throw in the wild shape feats, like Eagle's wings.
#20 Jay_Ibero_911 May 09, 2008 15:12:08	Sacred Fist really benefits from thoughtful selection of domains. If you grab a domain like fire, you can get around DR by using attack magic. And, remember that a druid/monk/sacred fist is also viable. Produce Flame alone should take you far. For added fun, throw in the wild shape feats, like Eagle's wings. Well the wild feat route would require at least 5 druid levels...and even more levels or extra wild shape feats to make it worthwhile...at that point you may as well just be a straight Druid...Domains DO make a big difference though.
#21 Black_Egg May 09, 2008 16:46:44	I tried putting an Enlightened Fist together a while back, and I could never make it fit together the way I wanted. Ascetic Mage is an awfully nice feat, but it doesn't come on line until level 6 at best. The character's early-on AC, offense and casting capability were garbage and with all of the character's tricks combined it didn't seem like they'd ever really catch up to even a basic Gish. Maybe others can put an Enlightened Fist together better than I could. Deciding that you don't care at all about your Armor Class would definitely help. (But if you don't care about AC, Ascetic Mage becomes nothing more than a ghetto Arcane Strike) I can say that I found building an Enlightened Fist to be a frustrating experience, though. An otherwise pure Monk would be making a huge commitment to 'dip' for Ascetic Mage since they'd have to take four levels of Sorcerer to get the feat going. Second level Sorcerer spells might be worth it, but that's an awfully big dip. An otherwise pure Sorcerer could take the caster level hit to snag Ascetic Mage for a big AC boost if they wanted, though. Dropping a spell level usually isn't advisable but I'm sure there's something crazy you could do with it...Tenser's Transformation maybe.
#22 jstorrie May 09, 2008 17:50:26	Hexblade 5 / Monk 2 is another potential entry to Enlightened Fist which could work out all right for you–spellcasting potential is quite a bit lower, but you do get Evasion, Mettle, the Hexblade save bonus, the Hexblade ACF (if you're playing Greyhawk, at least), and some very good touch spells to use with the Enlightened Fist class powers. Hexblades can proficiently wield a good reach weapon, wear light armor instead of trying to get Ascetic Mage to work, and have a higher BAB to make up for the hits from Monk/EF. Memento access will make or break this build, though, since Hexblades don't have many spells per day.
#23 mwao_dup May 09, 2008 18:22:40	This is my build: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 14 1: Monk 1: Stunning Fist, IUS, Combat Casting, Improved Grapple 2: Monk 2: Combat Reflexes 3: Sorcerer 1: Practiced Spellcaster 4: Paladin 1: Str 17 5: Paladin 2 6: Sorcerer 2: CWI 7: Sorcerer 3 8: Enlightened Fist 1: Str 18 9: Enlightened Fist 2: Ascetic Mage 10: Enlightened Fist 3 11: Enlightened Fist 4 12: Enlightened Fist 5: Arcane Strike: Str 19 13: Enlightened Fist 6 14: Enlightened Fist 7 15: Enlightened Fist 8: ? 1-2: Did lots of grapple - bought a MW Silver Greatsword for "Power Attack", carried a guisarme for AoOs. Found access to 50 gp potions of Enlarge Person. 3: Fist of Stone, Blades of Flame, picked up a longspear 4: Used Guisarme 6: Had Master's Touch, Fist of Stone, crafted Gloves of Dex to deal with Enlarge Person problems. 8-10: Started transitioning to having Grapple for emergancies and being able to afford AC. 11-13: Having an actual AC, doing actual damage 14: Hold Ray comes online, does a huge amount of damage, has a high AC 15: Not sure - might be nice to have an extra cohort, Improved Natural Attack, or Power Attack. Though I'm likely to avoid Power Attack just because. Note what the build did - from levels 1-8, it was a superstrong grappler - master's touch to use Scorpion Claws, Fist of Stone for +6 Str bonus for purposes of Grapples, combat reflexes to use a reach weapon + blades of flame to do battlefield control. Then from levels 8-13, it was transitioning from a grappler to a high damage/AC/Fast BDF. Some of those levels were difficult, because she didn't have a high enough AC to do stand toe to toe and she wasn't in a party where she could consistently expect everyone else to hold down the enemy nor could she consistently nail down enemies with Grapple - she retrained away crucial grapple spells for more damage/AC oriented spells. Especially Master's Touch.
#24 timlagor May 09, 2008 21:33:42	I did an Enlightened Fist Wizard build that I was pretty happy with once upon a time but never got around to playing it. You give up Ascetic Mage but the Feats are pretty tight anyway and getting more better spells earlier and being allowed variety counts for a good deal (pretty sure you get into EF quicker too) -losing Alter Self really hurt however.
#25 verenal May 10, 2008 6:38:05	Something you should remember. Living Greyhawk wil end this year. Therefore new characters won't reach high levels. If you make a new character, you shouldn't think about what combination of classes it'll have or tricks it'll use at level 15, when 5th or 6th level is likely the higest the character will see, and only if you play him a lot. Then again, if you continue to play the character after LG has ended, this message can be disregarded.