Lukas Aran, Suel Human Sorcerer7/Fatespinner1,
HP 47
STR 12
DEX 14
CON 16 (+2 Amulet)
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 19 (+2 Cloak)
Fort: 9
Ref: 6
Will: 9 (Rat Familiar for +2, Vest of Resistance +2)
AC 16, 12 Touch, 14 Flat Footed, (Mage Armor is used here)
Initiative +2 or +7 (Nerveskitter baby!)
Grapple +4 (BAB 3, STR 1), +8 to resist/escape grapples due to a favor,
Skills:
Concentration: 14 (11 ranks)
Knowledge Arcana: 10 ranks
Spellcraft: 7 ranks
Profession Gambler: 5 Ranks
Listen/Spot: +2
Feats: (in order)
Infernal Sorcerer Heritage (PHB2, +1 vs fire/poison per infernal feat, +1 to evil critter summon spell caster level)
Empower Spell
Infernal Sorcerer Howl (Sonic/Fort Save Draconic Breath cone equivalent. It's very handy, especially against swarms and outsiders.)
Energy Substitution Acid
Spells Known:
0th: (6/day)
Disrupt Undead
Mage Hand
Acid Splash
Light
Detect Magic
Read Magic
Caltrops
1st: (7/day + Level 1 Memento)
Grease
Magic Missile,
Orb of Cold, Lesser
Mage Armor
Nerveskitter
2nd:
Glitterdust,
False Life,
See Invisibility,
3rd:
Fireball
Haste
4th:
Wall of Ice (There are worse spells and I can't change it now.)
Equipment:
Everburning Torch, various mundane items and a number of scrolls,
Artificer's Monocle,
Anklet of Translocation,
Vest of Resistance +2,
Cloak of Charisma +2,
Amulet of Con +2,
Lesser Rod of Extend Spell,
Level 1 Memento Magicka
Wand of Cure Light (45 Charges)
Wand of Baleful Transposition (5 Charges, only had 10 to start)
Wand of Comp Languages (5 Charges, also started with 10 charges)
Gold on hand: ~1600gp
Before you ask, this character died once to a scythe crit (cheap resurrection via overcap) and was level drained once as well, which added a useful amount of extra gold. Though I'd rather not go through either again.
Current Tactics Include: Daily Buffing with Mage Armor and False Life. (Don't mock it. Lukas has lived more than once because of both. The scythe crit would not have confirmed had he been buffed with Mage Armor.)
Battle Tactics can be boiled down to "Haste the Party, blast the enemy, check spell list for best spell to apply or use the Howl."
If he has a second level slot left at the end of the day, he buffs with an extended False Life over night.
Current Advice Wanted:
Feat Choice at level 9:
I WAS going to take Rapid Metamagic, but I had to sink points into Knowledge Arcana to get into Fatespinner. So that will be a level 12 feat option.
Feats I have looked at seriously are:
Nonlethal Substitution: Greyhawk and Hostages be Damned, Nonlethal damage on Fireball is handy.
Sculpt Spell: Options in targeting the spell can help
Energy Substitution: A third option for my damage spells would be nice.
Arcane Mastery: Spell Resistance has been a problem. But a sorcerer's ability to use metamagic on the fly is very handy too.
Extra Spell: More Spells = More options.
Transdimensional Spell: Ghostkiller, nuff said.
I am open to other feats, especially metamagic feats. I'd also like to know what other players would use in my place.
More advice currently wanted
Spell Choices for 9th level:
I'm almost 100% sure that the second level spell gained will be "Burning Sword" (Or Sonic Weapon). Knock is tempting, but adding damage to archers and/or melee characters is looking very good to me.
For 3rd level spells, Fly, Protection From Energy, Dispel Magic, Greater Mage Armor and Undulant Innards (Lords of Madness) come to mind. They all have their uses. (Extra Spell would get Lukas a 3rd level spell, which wouldn't hurt.) Undulant Innards Grants bonuses versus several different effects, makes all falls do minimum damage to the faller and can negate a single critical hit. Lukas has a favor that makes x4 weapons automatically crit. He got this "favor" AFTER dying to the scythe crit.
For 4th level spells, Dim Door, Greater Invisibility, Wall of Sand, Wall of Fire and Evard's Black Tentacles come to mind. NOTE: I might swap out Wall of Ice for a different Wall spell if Wall of Ice proves less than useful.
I'm open to suggestions for 3rd and 4th level spells.
Thanks in advance,
Hariman
Hello everyone, the thread title is self explanatory so I'll get right to the character stats:
Lukas Aran, Suel Human Sorcerer7/Fatespinner1,
I really hate to say this, but Fatespinner has a prereq of "able to cast L4 arcane spells". Did you have some nifty way to meet that with a L7 sorcerer, or is it an error?
Feats: (in order)
Infernal Sorcerer Heritage (PHB2, +1 vs fire/poison per infernal feat, +1 to evil critter summon spell caster level)
Empower Spell
Infernal Sorcerer Howl (Sonic/Fort Save Draconic Breath cone equivalent. It's very handy, especially against swarms and outsiders.)
Energy Substitution Acid
Yeah, I was kind of surprised by how useful Draconic Breath turned out to be, on my currently-L10 sorcerer. Feats look good.
Feats I have looked at seriously are:
Nonlethal Substitution: Greyhawk and Hostages be Damned, Nonlethal damage on Fireball is handy.
Sculpt Spell: Options in targeting the spell can help
Energy Substitution: A third option for my damage spells would be nice.
Arcane Mastery: Spell Resistance has been a problem. But a sorcerer's ability to use metamagic on the fly is very handy too.
Extra Spell: More Spells = More options.
Transdimensional Spell: Ghostkiller, nuff said.
Sculpt Spell looks nice for you, with Grease + Glitterdust + Fireball. I don't think I'd take Transdim unless your area is very incorporeal-heavy: you don't have that much BC to apply it to, and you do have the option of spamming empowered magic missiles. On the other hand, if you pick up Web as a L2 spell, this looks a lot more attractive.
You already have fire + cold + acid covered with energy spells - fire and acid in area versions, cold and acid in single-target no-reflex-save - I doubt you'd get that much use out of another energy sub, although I guess it would be nice to convert to electricity vs devils. Nonlethal Sub is definitely an interesting option, but if you primarily want it to avoid innocents, I think Sculpt is probably a better choice, as it lets you sculpt your fireballs around hostages while also allowing the cheese that is sculpted grease and glitterdust.
I am open to other feats, especially metamagic feats. I'd also like to know what other players would use in my place.
Twin Spell is sometimes a good mid-high-level feat, if you want to blast things. Not sure if it's worth it for your build though. Chain Spell is nice with Nerveskitter and Rapid Metamagic, but you don't really have anything else it affects and it's pointless without RM anyway.
I'm almost 100% sure that the second level spell gained will be "Burning Sword" (Or Sonic Weapon). Knock is tempting, but adding damage to archers and/or melee characters is looking very good to me.
For 3rd level spells, Fly, Protection From Energy, Dispel Magic, Greater Mage Armor and Undulant Innards (Lords of Madness) come to mind. They all have their uses. (Extra Spell would get Lukas a 3rd level spell, which wouldn't hurt.) Undulant Innards Grants bonuses versus several different effects, makes all falls do minimum damage to the faller and can negate a single critical hit. Lukas has a favor that makes x4 weapons automatically crit. He got this "favor" AFTER dying to the scythe crit.
For 4th level spells, Dim Door, Greater Invisibility, Wall of Sand, Wall of Fire and Evard's Black Tentacles come to mind. NOTE: I might swap out Wall of Ice for a different Wall spell if Wall of Ice proves less than useful.
I'm open to suggestions for 3rd and 4th level spells.
What L5 spell are you planning to take next level? I ask because if it's Mass Fly / Teleport, that means you probably shouldn't take Fly / D-Door now. If you are NOT taking Mass Fly at L10-11, I would take Fly now: you're getting into the level range where the authors will assume the party has a way to fly. If you are taking Mass Fly soon, Protection from Energy is nice on a spontaneous caster - I happen to prefer Resist Energy, but you may not have the spare L2 slot. At L9, I suspect you'll get a few levels of use out of Dispel Magic before it becomes largely obsolete - like prot energy, it's a nice spell for a spontcaster, as you can spam it until it works. I can't remember the duration on Undulant Innards: if it's 10 minutes / level for longer this might be good, but if it's short duration, again, think about what actions you're likely to be taking in combat. I don't think GMA is worth the L3 slot for a L9 sorcerer, unless you're very focused on playing tank/cork for the party.
For other L3 spells... you may want to consider GMW at L12+, but that's a few levels away yet. Phantom Steed is an amazing sorcerer mobility spell, but best at higher levels where the steeds can airwalk and fly. I'd consider Battlemagic Perception if you get access, but since you need to take a dispel as well to make it work properly, that's more of a high-level option.
Evard's Black Tentacles and Solid Fog are excellent L4 battlefield control spells. D-Door is good for shuttling party members around the battlefield and escaping grapples and enemy BC, but I see you already have anklets and it sounds like you don't want your sorc in melee range of big nasties. Greater Invis is a nice spell, but its best use is usually to buff the rogue, and you need to think about how often it will be worth a combat action relative to your other standard-action options.
For L2 spells, I'd look at Scorching Ray at some point: with Energy Sub and Empower, you're set up reasonably well to blast (and even more so if you retrain a feat to Quicken after you get Rapid Metamagic). It gets really good (significantly better than lesser orb of cold) at L11. Web combines very well with Transdimensional Spell.
I think overall what I'd do in your situation is take Evard's Black Tentacles (assuming your region is okay with it) and Sculpt Spell. That way you immediately pick up sculpted grease + glitterdust + (acid) fireball, and next level you can do sculpted evards - this level you have two types of top-tier battlefield control that work well in different circumstances.
I would probably plan to retrain a feat to Quicken after picking up Rapid Metamagic. Spontaneous Quicken is just amazing.
I really hate to say this, but Fatespinner has a prereq of "able to cast L4 arcane spells". Did you have some nifty way to meet that with a L7 sorcerer, or is it an error?
I think it's an error. That means I have to adjust Lukas' saves a little.
Correction: Oops. +1 to BAB, -1 to will save, +1 Hit die for the familiar and -Spin Fate. Not much of a difference there.
Yeah, I was kind of surprised by how useful Draconic Breath turned out to be, on my currently-L10 sorcerer. Feats look good.
It's actually more useful than a Draconic Breath for 2 reasons. 1: It's sonic damage. That lets it bypass a lot of resistances and immunities that the breath feats have to deal with. 2: It's a fort save. Which means I use my spells on BDFs and brutes and the Howl on rogues and arcane casters.
Sculpt Spell looks nice for you, with Grease + Glitterdust + Fireball. I don't think I'd take Transdim unless your area is very incorporeal-heavy: you don't have that much BC to apply it to, and you do have the option of spamming empowered magic missiles. On the other hand, if you pick up Web as a L2 spell, this looks a lot more attractive.
You already have fire + cold + acid covered with energy spells - fire and acid in area versions, cold and acid in single-target no-reflex-save - I doubt you'd get that much use out of another energy sub, although I guess it would be nice to convert to electricity vs devils. Nonlethal Sub is definitely an interesting option, but if you primarily want it to avoid innocents, I think Sculpt is probably a better choice, as it lets you sculpt your fireballs around hostages while also allowing the cheese that is sculpted grease and glitterdust.
Sculpt would be a good feat. Especially since my greatest problem, short of spell resistance, has been placing spells. Fun thing is, I can turn Wall of Ice into wall of acid.
Twin Spell is sometimes a good mid-high-level feat, if you want to blast things. Not sure if it's worth it for your build though. Chain Spell is nice with Nerveskitter and Rapid Metamagic, but you don't really have anything else it affects and it's pointless without RM anyway.
Chain Spell + Undulant Innards would be amazing. See below for why. (It's a level 12 option.)
What L5 spell are you planning to take next level? I ask because if it's Mass Fly / Teleport, that means you probably shouldn't take Fly / D-Door now. If you are NOT taking Mass Fly at L10-11, I would take Fly now: you're getting into the level range where the authors will assume the party has a way to fly. If you are taking Mass Fly soon, Protection from Energy is nice on a spontaneous caster - I happen to prefer Resist Energy, but you may not have the spare L2 slot. At L9, I suspect you'll get a few levels of use out of Dispel Magic before it becomes largely obsolete - like prot energy, it's a nice spell for a spontcaster, as you can spam it until it works. I can't remember the duration on Undulant Innards: if it's 10 minutes / level for longer this might be good, but if it's short duration, again, think about what actions you're likely to be taking in combat. I don't think GMA is worth the L3 slot for a L9 sorcerer, unless you're very focused on playing tank/cork for the party.
Undulant Innards is 1 ROUND a level, but it grants immunity to crits/sneak attack, minimum damage if you fall, and a +4 enhancement bonus to saves vs poison, disease and paralysis.
I was seriously considering Arc of Lightning as a 5th level spell. The greatest problem with that is that it needs two enemies and is only close range.
Firebrand (spell compendium) is a L5 option that I have access to, but it has it's own flaws. Being an SR: Yes spell is the worst among them. Capping at 10d6 (but doing extra damage the next round) is another
For other L3 spells... you may want to consider GMW at L12+, but that's a few levels away yet. Phantom Steed is an amazing sorcerer mobility spell, but best at higher levels where the steeds can airwalk and fly. I'd consider Battlemagic Perception if you get access, but since you need to take a dispel as well to make it work properly, that's more of a high-level option.
Evard's Black Tentacles and Solid Fog are excellent L4 battlefield control spells. D-Door is good for shuttling party members around the battlefield and escaping grapples and enemy BC, but I see you already have anklets and it sounds like you don't want your sorc in melee range of big nasties. Greater Invis is a nice spell, but its best use is usually to buff the rogue, and you need to think about how often it will be worth a combat action relative to your other standard-action options.
Solid Fog's main flaw is that I already have Wall of Ice. Actually, that's it's only flaw that I can see. I might just take Solid Fog and swap out Wall of Ice at level 10. Or take Solid Fog at level 9 then swap Wall of Ice for something else at level 10. It's time consuming, but solid fog might be that good.
Dim Door is also very useful. I've seen it carry most of the party around a battlefield and past a scythe trap.
You called it right that I don't like my sorc being near big nasties. But I'd rather have an escape option than not.
For L2 spells, I'd look at Scorching Ray at some point: with Energy Sub and Empower, you're set up reasonably well to blast (and even more so if you retrain a feat to Quicken after you get Rapid Metamagic). It gets really good (significantly better than lesser orb of cold) at L11. Web combines very well with Transdimensional Spell.
I never mentioned my ability to miss with ranged touch attack rolls. I have actually managed to miss RTAs so much that it's damn near a running gag.
But it's an option for higher levels.
I think overall what I'd do in your situation is take Evard's Black Tentacles (assuming your region is okay with it) and Sculpt Spell. That way you immediately pick up sculpted grease + glitterdust + (acid) fireball, and next level you can do sculpted evards - this level you have two types of top-tier battlefield control that work well in different circumstances.
I would probably plan to retrain a feat to Quicken after picking up Rapid Metamagic. Spontaneous Quicken is just amazing.
Keoland frowns on Evard's. And with only 14 TUs left, I can't afford to get arrested for casting an illegal spell. Though retraining once won't hurt.
The hard part is choosing what to retrain to Quicken Spell.
I'm leaning toward Fly, Dim Door and Resist Energy. Burning Sword would be nice to get right now, but Resist Energy is very good. Especially if I can get a BDF to accept Resist Energy to provide a second target for Arc of Lightning.
I forgot to ask this earlier, but is there any equipment that you'd recommend? I know I have the basics covered, but there's probably something that I'm missing.
Hariman
It's actually more useful than a Draconic Breath for 2 reasons. 1: It's sonic damage. That lets it bypass a lot of resistances and immunities that the breath feats have to deal with. 2: It's a fort save. Which means I use my spells on BDFs and brutes and the Howl on rogues and arcane casters.
I've seen both in action - I tend to think Infernal Howl is a little stronger because of its damage type, but both have their advantages (of course, almost all my sorc's offensive spells target fort/will, so I like the fact that draconic breath is ref-save-based). I believe Infernal Howl also has the advantage of only affecting enemies?
Chain Spell + Undulant Innards would be amazing. See below for why. (It's a level 12 option.)
Yeah, that's not bad, albeit situational. Good way to break rogues-with-blindsight encounters
Firebrand (spell compendium) is a L5 option that I have access to, but it has it's own flaws. Being an SR: Yes spell is the worst among them. Capping at 10d6 (but doing extra damage the next round) is another
Sounds like you need Assay SR. I've seen it a couple of times, but not in current mods, as far as I can remember... good luck. Empowered (Acid) Fireball is a pretty decent L5 damage spell - Firebrand seems to overlap with it a fair bit.
You called it right that I don't like my sorc being near big nasties. But I'd rather have an escape option than not.
Fair enough. D-Door is certainly a useful spell (I took it as my mid-level sorc's new L4 spell at L9, actually, but she's pretty tough and also does a lot of scouting, so I wanted it for different reasons).
Keoland frowns on Evard's. And with only 14 TUs left, I can't afford to get arrested for casting an illegal spell.
Right, I wasn't sure - I thought I remembered you were from Keoland, but you did mention Evards as among your spell options.
I'm leaning toward Fly, Dim Door and Resist Energy. Burning Sword would be nice to get right now, but Resist Energy is very good. Especially if I can get a BDF to accept Resist Energy to provide a second target for Arc of Lightning.
That seems like a fine plan.
I forgot to ask this earlier, but is there any equipment that you'd recommend? I know I have the basics covered, but there's probably something that I'm missing.
Without knowing your access it's hard to say. You have the basics covered, and as TriezeK said, upgrading that cloak is a good next step. If you don't take Sculpt Spell this level, grab rods of sculpting if you come across them. The bigger rods of energy substitution are also great. A mithral buckler would give you a bit more AC, padded thistledown armor allows you to use nice armor enhancements like deathward. I like having a wide array of scrolls with my sorcerers. There are lots of useful MIC items - circlets of rapid casting and/or belts of battle can replace Quicken reasonably well. Normally I'd suggest a Heward's Handy Haversack, but you paid for Str 12 so you may not have the usual arcanist carrying-capacity issues.
I've seen both in action - I tend to think Infernal Howl is a little stronger because of its damage type, but both have their advantages (of course, almost all my sorc's offensive spells target fort/will, so I like the fact that draconic breath is ref-save-based). I believe Infernal Howl also has the advantage of only affecting enemies?
Not with the DMs in my area. But it's still very handy.
Yeah, that's not bad, albeit situational. Good way to break rogues-with-blindsight encounters
And it's a good buff to protect against keen falchion wielding barbarian orcs.
Sounds like you need Assay SR. I've seen it a couple of times, but not in current mods, as far as I can remember... good luck. Empowered (Acid) Fireball is a pretty decent L5 damage spell - Firebrand seems to overlap with it a fair bit.
Assay Spell Resistance would be very nice. And I do have fireball (and will have sculpt) so it is redundant.
Energy Sub Acid served me very well during the mod I played today. The ability to use Acidballs underwater as opposed to making the caster level check for a normal Fireball really helped while we were underwater. It also bypassed the bard's Resist Energy (Fire) 20.
Speaking of access, I've gotten access to Stone Body, but Undulant Innards can do the same job for a 3rd level slot instead of a 6th level slot. Though not for long nor would it cover some of the other problems that Stone Body covers. I might end up with both Undulant Innards and Stone Body, as they are both really useful.
Fair enough. D-Door is certainly a useful spell (I took it as my mid-level sorc's new L4 spell at L9, actually, but she's pretty tough and also does a lot of scouting, so I wanted it for different reasons).
Pretty tough? I'm gonna guess a 16 starting con on a gnome or more defensive spells than what I have for my sorcerer.
Right, I wasn't sure - I thought I remembered you were from Keoland, but you did mention Evards as among your spell options.
Evard's is nice, but I can get almost as much out of Solid Fog. Although if it weren't for the keoland laws, I would take Evard's in a heartbeat.
That seems like a fine plan.
True. It's not set in stone though, so I'll keep my eyes and options open.
Without knowing your access it's hard to say. You have the basics covered, and as Timlagor said, upgrading that cloak is a good next step. If you don't take Sculpt Spell this level, grab rods of sculpting if you come across them. The bigger rods of energy substitution are also great. A mithral buckler would give you a bit more AC, padded thistledown armor allows you to use nice armor enhancements like deathward. I like having a wide array of scrolls with my sorcerers. There are lots of useful MIC items - circlets of rapid casting and/or belts of battle can replace Quicken reasonably well. Normally I'd suggest a Heward's Handy Haversack, but you paid for Str 12 so you may not have the usual arcanist carrying-capacity issues.
A mithral buckler is an option that I have considered. My sorcerer's current AC is 16 after buffing. The extra one or two and the opportunity to add shield based enchantments wouldn't hurt.
I have two different favors that grant me 20% off a single magic item. (One they let me sell the items for 75% of it's normal value instead of 50%. One is only armor, a shield or a weapon, but it's a +1 equivalent ability so I could get a light fortification buckler.) Those will help with future purchases.
A Heward's would be nice, but it's not vital yet.
As for access: Nothing really jumps out at me now that I've checked. Although I do have access to a thistledown suit and thistledown padded. And the access to a mithral buckler.
I'm actually going to buy the mithral buckler now. The bump to AC will provide a little help. Heck, having Mage Armor up saved my character's booty today. The barbarian/fighter got confused and then didn't roll higher than 15 to hit my sorcerer.
Hariman
PS: OK, so one favor does jump out at me now that I think about it.
I have access to the +1 tomes and books that provide inherent bonuses. And I can buy two different tomes. Combining a Tome with a favor that reduces a magic item's cost by 20%, I'd pay 21.800 GP for a +1 to a stat of my choice.
The only downside is that Lukas' stats aren't quite right for that. I'd end up with an odd ability score (and wasted money) unless I could afford 2 of the tomes.
as Timlagor said..
Sorry but I don't have anywhere near as many posts as Timlagor
The only downside is that Lukas' stats aren't quite right for that. I'd end up with an odd ability score (and wasted money) unless I could afford 2 of the tomes.
Save yourself the trouble. Named bonuses of the same type don't stack. Inherent+1 plus Inherent +1 = Inherent +1.
Sorry but I don't have anywhere near as many posts as Timlagor
Oops! Sorry! Edited.
Not with the DMs in my area. But it's still very handy.
I'm curious as to their justification for that? Reading the feat, the flavor text says it "blasts your enemies with sonic power", and the benefit says "All opponents within the cone take 2d6 points of damage per level of the spell slot expended". It seems pretty clear to me that it only hurts foes.
And I do have fireball (and will have sculpt) so it is redundant.
Yeah, that was precisely my point - sorry if it wasn't clear. I tend to think that the best reason to take Empower and Energy Sub on a sorcerer is to cover more bases with less cost in spells-known (and the same for Maximize, Twin, etc) - Empower lets you boost your low-level spells-known to the point where they're still powerful at higher levels, Energy Sub effectively doubles your energy-damage-dealing spells known, etc. If you then go ahead and take higher-level spells-known that do essentially what your metamagicked spells do already, then it's a bit of a waste.
Pretty tough? I'm gonna guess a 16 starting con on a gnome or more defensive spells than what I have for my sorcerer.
Hmmm... this got kind of long, so is spoiler-blocked for those who don't want to hear about my sorcerers (not really to the point of the thread).
Show
Both, actually. My first sorcerer (Azrien) started as a Con-12 Dex-16 human who initially specialized in ranged touch attacks (she was going to be an elf, but the bonus feat and skill points were worth more than the saved stat points) and at high levels developed a focus on mobility magic. She has been extremely effective at all levels of play (and is my favorite character by a large margin). Her defences against melee monsters have always been "not being there", "not letting them get to me", or "killing them first" - she was walking around with Con 12 and AC 13 at L11 - and that's worked really well for her, but when I made a second sorcerer somewhat later to play with the new feats and PrCs that had come out, I didn't want to just replicate Azrien's style.
My second sorcerer, Min, is currently a gnome sorcerer 6 / ruathar 2 / shadowcraft mage 2. She started with Con 16, and due in part to all the arguments I'd heard (on these boards and elsewhere) that every two points in Con makes a HUGE difference to survivability, I was initially rather cavalier about staying near the frontlines with her.
The thing is, a Con-16 sorcerer is like a Con-12 cleric or a Con-10 fighter, as far as hit points go. If you want to be anywhere near the melee monsters, you need more investment than starting Con 16. This became very clearly apparent to Min around L5-6, when she had two extremely-near-death experiences in quick succession (with the same GM, but he wasn't doing anything unfair - curse you and your dice, solbergb :P) She also picked up an item from Undermountain that lets her force save rerolls, but only within 30ft, so that was another good reason to invest in some passive defences that work in melee.
Min currently has Con 18 (+2 amulet), and Dragonskin, False Life and Mage Armor as known spells, with a lesser rod of extend meaning Dragonskin is usually up for every combat. She also owns a +1 mithral buckler, and her first action in combat is usually to cast Haste. Thus, at L10, which she just reached, she walks around with 82 + 1d10 HP and usually has AC 25 (10 +1 size + 2 Dex + 4 armor + 5 natural +2 shield +1 haste) in combat. Buffs from the rest of the party regularly get her AC up to around 30 (last mod she had a cleric giving out recitation and extended shields of faith, game before that there was a warweaver who supplied Greater Mage Armor and Protection from Evil). At L9 her AC was the same and she had 74+1d10 HP, which was quite enough to tank (in the "soaking attacks" sense, not the "doing melee damage" sense) when playing down. As for scouting, she currently has a take-10 Hide check of 37 and a take-10 Move Silently check of 30 (and a Spot check around +20, 90ft darkvision, invisibility to darkvision, Superior Low-Light Vision, a lantern that radiates 60ft magical shadowy illumination, and permanent concealment when not in daylight... so she can usually notice things before they notice her).
She doesn't have Mirror Image for the same reason Azi didn't: she can't justify spending standard actions in combat on a buff that only benefits her. Her typical combat actions are to buff the party with haste and/or mass fly, d-door fighters into full-attack range if they're powerful enough to make it worthwhile, use sculpted glitterdust / shadowspray / grease to incapacitate multiple opponents, or use a heightened shadow well + forced reroll to take a particularly threatening enemy out of the combat. Her acid breath weapon gets used against swarms, spell-resistant creatures where grease/glitterdust aren't optimal for some reason, or large numbers of weak mooks. Next level, her battlefield control will pick up a lot (at present it's pretty much just sculpted grease) when she gets Shadow Illusion.
My second sorcerer, Min, is currently a gnome sorcerer 6 / ruathar 2 / shadowcraft mage 2. She started with Con 16, and due in part to all the arguments I'd heard (on these boards and elsewhere) that every two points in Con makes a HUGE difference to survivability, I was initially rather cavalier about staying near the frontlines with her.
The thing is, a Con-16 sorcerer is like a Con-12 cleric or a Con-10 fighter, as far as hit points go. If you want to be anywhere near the melee monsters, you need more investment than starting Con 16. This became very clearly apparent to Min around L5-6, when she had two extremely-near-death experiences in quick succession (with the same GM, but he wasn't doing anything unfair - curse you and your dice, solbergb :P) She also picked up an item from Undermountain that lets her force save rerolls, but only within 30ft, so that was another good reason to invest in some passive defences that work in melee.
Min currently has Con 18 (+2 amulet), and Dragonskin, False Life and Mage Armor as known spells, with a lesser rod of extend meaning Dragonskin is usually up for every combat. She also owns a +1 mithral buckler, and her first action in combat is usually to cast Haste. Thus, at L10, which she just reached, she walks around with 82 + 1d10 HP and usually has AC 25 (10 +1 size + 2 Dex + 4 armor + 5 natural +2 shield +1 haste) in combat. Buffs from the rest of the party regularly get her AC up to around 30 (last mod she had a cleric giving out recitation and extended shields of faith, game before that there was a warweaver who supplied Greater Mage Armor and Protection from Evil). At L9 her AC was the same and she had 74+1d10 HP, which was quite enough to tank (in the "soaking attacks" sense, not the "doing melee damage" sense) when playing down. As for scouting, she currently has a take-10 Hide check of 37 and a take-10 Move Silently check of 30 (and a Spot check around +20, 90ft darkvision, invisibility to darkvision, Superior Low-Light Vision, a lantern that radiates 60ft magical shadowy illumination, and permanent concealment when not in daylight... so she can usually notice things before they notice her).
She doesn't have Mirror Image for the same reason Azi didn't: she can't justify spending standard actions in combat on a buff that only benefits her. Her typical combat actions are to buff the party with haste and/or mass fly, d-door fighters into full-attack range if they're powerful enough to make it worthwhile, use sculpted glitterdust / shadowspray / grease to incapacitate multiple opponents, or use a heightened shadow well + forced reroll to take a particularly threatening enemy out of the combat. Her acid breath weapon gets used against swarms, spell-resistant creatures where grease/glitterdust aren't optimal for some reason, or large numbers of weak mooks. Next level, her battlefield control will pick up a lot (at present it's pretty much just sculpted grease) when she gets Shadow Illusion.
I as a GM rule that the 10 foot cubes need to at least touch on the Apex. I find that to be the intent of the spell, to change the SHAPE rather than to SPLIT the effects.
This is an opinion backed by most GMs I know, so just a heads up. (not trying to start an arguement here)
I don't see the intent of the spell to allow say, 4 seperate cubes of the same spell affecting various areas on the opposite side of the battlemat. (especially when one considers boreal wind)
I'm curious as to their justification for that? Reading the feat, the flavor text says it "blasts your enemies with sonic power", and the benefit says "All opponents within the cone take 2d6 points of damage per level of the spell slot expended". It seems pretty clear to me that it only hurts foes.
Well, the basic response from the DM who runs most of the mods I play was to give me a "You've got to be kidding me" look and to tell me that opponents doesn't let me choose who it strikes in the cone. It's not something I like, but it's the DMs ruling and I won't be able to change his mind.
Really, it's a good feat without striking only opponents. With striking only your enemies, it puts all of the Draconic Breath feats to shame. Unless your target has a good fort save.
Yeah, that was precisely my point - sorry if it wasn't clear. I tend to think that the best reason to take Empower and Energy Sub on a sorcerer is to cover more bases with less cost in spells-known (and the same for Maximize, Twin, etc) - Empower lets you boost your low-level spells-known to the point where they're still powerful at higher levels, Energy Sub effectively doubles your energy-damage-dealing spells known, etc. If you then go ahead and take higher-level spells-known that do essentially what your metamagicked spells do already, then it's a bit of a waste.
You were clear on the point. I was just being redundant in my last post. I COULD swap fireball for Lightning Bolt when I hit level 10 and take Firebrand anyway. That wouldn't hurt my elemental variety any. It would only hurt my attack range.
Hmmm... this got kind of long, so is spoiler-blocked for those who don't want to hear about my sorcerers (not really to the point of the thread).ShowBoth, actually. My first sorcerer (Azrien) started as a Con-12 Dex-16 human who initially specialized in ranged touch attacks (she was going to be an elf, but the bonus feat and skill points were worth more than the saved stat points) and at high levels developed a focus on mobility magic. She has been extremely effective at all levels of play (and is my favorite character by a large margin). Her defences against melee monsters have always been "not being there", "not letting them get to me", or "killing them first" - she was walking around with Con 12 and AC 13 at L11 - and that's worked really well for her, but when I made a second sorcerer somewhat later to play with the new feats and PrCs that had come out, I didn't want to just replicate Azrien's style.
My second sorcerer, Min, is currently a gnome sorcerer 6 / ruathar 2 / shadowcraft mage 2. She started with Con 16, and due in part to all the arguments I'd heard (on these boards and elsewhere) that every two points in Con makes a HUGE difference to survivability, I was initially rather cavalier about staying near the frontlines with her.
The thing is, a Con-16 sorcerer is like a Con-12 cleric or a Con-10 fighter, as far as hit points go. If you want to be anywhere near the melee monsters, you need more investment than starting Con 16. This became very clearly apparent to Min around L5-6, when she had two extremely-near-death experiences in quick succession (with the same GM, but he wasn't doing anything unfair - curse you and your dice, solbergb :P) She also picked up an item from Undermountain that lets her force save rerolls, but only within 30ft, so that was another good reason to invest in some passive defences that work in melee.
Min currently has Con 18 (+2 amulet), and Dragonskin, False Life and Mage Armor as known spells, with a lesser rod of extend meaning Dragonskin is usually up for every combat. She also owns a +1 mithral buckler, and her first action in combat is usually to cast Haste. Thus, at L10, which she just reached, she walks around with 82 + 1d10 HP and usually has AC 25 (10 +1 size + 2 Dex + 4 armor + 5 natural +2 shield +1 haste) in combat. Buffs from the rest of the party regularly get her AC up to around 30 (last mod she had a cleric giving out recitation and extended shields of faith, game before that there was a warweaver who supplied Greater Mage Armor and Protection from Evil). At L9 her AC was the same and she had 74+1d10 HP, which was quite enough to tank (in the "soaking attacks" sense, not the "doing melee damage" sense) when playing down. As for scouting, she currently has a take-10 Hide check of 37 and a take-10 Move Silently check of 30 (and a Spot check around +20, 90ft darkvision, invisibility to darkvision, Superior Low-Light Vision, a lantern that radiates 60ft magical shadowy illumination, and permanent concealment when not in daylight... so she can usually notice things before they notice her).
She doesn't have Mirror Image for the same reason Azi didn't: she can't justify spending standard actions in combat on a buff that only benefits her. Her typical combat actions are to buff the party with haste and/or mass fly, d-door fighters into full-attack range if they're powerful enough to make it worthwhile, use sculpted glitterdust / shadowspray / grease to incapacitate multiple opponents, or use a heightened shadow well + forced reroll to take a particularly threatening enemy out of the combat. Her acid breath weapon gets used against swarms, spell-resistant creatures where grease/glitterdust aren't optimal for some reason, or large numbers of weak mooks. Next level, her battlefield control will pick up a lot (at present it's pretty much just sculpted grease) when she gets Shadow Illusion.
Just a note on Sculpt:
I as a GM rule that the 10 foot cubes need to at least touch on the Apex. I find that to be the intent of the spell, to change the SHAPE rather than to SPLIT the effects.
This is an opinion backed by most GMs I know, so just a heads up. (not trying to start an arguement here)
I don't see the intent of the spell to allow say, 4 seperate cubes of the same spell affecting various areas on the opposite side of the battlemat. (especially when one considers boreal wind)
Just a note: are you familiar with the advice in Complete Mage (p.14 and p.25, maybe other places as well) advising arcanists to take Sculpt Spell because it "permits you to create four isolated 10-foot cubes anywhere within range of your spell"?
The advice in Complete Mage isn't an LG-binding rules source, but it's a pretty clear indication of how WotC thinks the feat should work, and it seems like most of the arguments against separating the cubes were based on perceived intent. I know I've seen a lot less table variation on this issue since CM came out with that wording - in fact, I've never had a GM rule the cubes can't be separated after pointing out that text to them, and I've seen several change their previous ruling (not saying the former can't happen, just that I haven't seen it).
Lukas sides with Azrien on how to survive melee. (Don't be there.)
He should take Phantom Steed at L11 then - it's Az's very favorite "don't be there" spell, and you can give it to your friends too for great party mobility
I have an odd question: Have Azrien and Min ever died? And if so, under what circumstances?
Azrien has died once at L15, attempting to solo an EL 20 optional encounter against a creature she considered to be an "enemy of magic" after the rest of her party decided not to try it. (We'd just come out of an extremely challenging APL 16 two-rounder with a slightly underpowered convention table: I can entirely understand why the others didn't want to take on the extended play option. The GM offered to run the encounter for me solo, and Azi has Wis 8 and delusions of invincibility, so I gave it a try ;) ) She did pretty well, given the situation: she lasted five rounds (until she rolled a 3 against one of the multiple DC-36 save-or-dies it was spamming every round - up until that point my rolls had been insanely good), took off about 3/4 of the monster's hit points, used up all its reroll abilities, and bounced one of its DC 36 save-or-dies back at it - it passed (needed a 1 to fail), but it was still pretty cool
It didn't even really put any dents in her self-confidence, since she got rescued and resurrected for free, and it took her all of two mods to bounce back to L15 ;)Min has never died. There were two occasions where she came close, both around L5-6 - L7 was when she picked up Dragonskin + False Life + Mage Armor. See spoilerblock for details.
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The first time, she was fighting a bunch of shadar-kai rogues and beguilers (with hide in plain sight). She'd been spending the fight spamming glitterdusts, using her cat familiar's scent ability to tell her where the bad guys were, so her cat was out in the open. One of the beguilers colorsprayed her, her riding dog, and her cat: she passed the save, but her animals both failed. She retaliated with glitterdust and attempted a fast dismount to get off her dog - when she succeeded, since she had a move action left, she used it to pick up her stunned cat (fearing that some of the glitterdusted-but-not-blinded rogues would retaliate against the cat).
Now, at this point I thought we'd glitterdusted all the shadar-kai, but I'd miscounted
There was still a hiding rogue around, and as it turned out, he was standing 10ft away from where Min landed after getting off her dog. Picking up her cat provoked an AoO (with sneak attack), which he took As soon as he appeared, I could see what was going to happen next: he would hide in plain sight and sneak attack her again, then his glitterdusted-but-not-blind buddy would come over for the flank and sneak attack her - and each of those, if they hit, would do about 20 damage, and those two rogues were acting next in the init order. She had about 40 HP and had just lost 20 to the first sneak. The first guy did what I'd expected, and left her on 3 HP. If the last guy connected, she was going to die unless the GM rolled extremely low on his d6s. Fortunately, the elves who'd been fighting the shadar-kai when we showed up were still around, and one of them ran in and heroically grappled the second rogue (the rogues didn't have combat reflexes, and were NOT expecting the elf to try that, because you know, grappling in close proximity to enemy rogues is usually a BAD idea). So Min survived, but was pretty shaken.
In her second near-death experience, she fought a large-earth-elemental + large-air-elemental pair. Their tactics were for the air elemental to sweep up the party in its whirlwind and then drop them in front of the earth elemental, hopefully leaving them prone and damaged for its full attack. In my party, Min was the ONLY one to fail the reflex save, so she ended up being dropped ALONE in front of the earth elemental. Fortunately, she had readied a glitterdust on her turn for "if an elemental swings at a party member" (we weren't initially sure if they were hostile) - she hadn't expected to be the one in the line of fire, but the ready still went off. She needed to use her reroll item to get the earth elemental to fail its save, but it did fail, so only connected with one of its two slam attacks, and she could move away without provoking an AoO on the next round. Still, again, it was a disquieting experience, and one that strongly influenced her L7 spell selection.
Now, at this point I thought we'd glitterdusted all the shadar-kai, but I'd miscounted
There was still a hiding rogue around, and as it turned out, he was standing 10ft away from where Min landed after getting off her dog. Picking up her cat provoked an AoO (with sneak attack), which he took As soon as he appeared, I could see what was going to happen next: he would hide in plain sight and sneak attack her again, then his glitterdusted-but-not-blind buddy would come over for the flank and sneak attack her - and each of those, if they hit, would do about 20 damage, and those two rogues were acting next in the init order. She had about 40 HP and had just lost 20 to the first sneak. The first guy did what I'd expected, and left her on 3 HP. If the last guy connected, she was going to die unless the GM rolled extremely low on his d6s. Fortunately, the elves who'd been fighting the shadar-kai when we showed up were still around, and one of them ran in and heroically grappled the second rogue (the rogues didn't have combat reflexes, and were NOT expecting the elf to try that, because you know, grappling in close proximity to enemy rogues is usually a BAD idea). So Min survived, but was pretty shaken.In her second near-death experience, she fought a large-earth-elemental + large-air-elemental pair. Their tactics were for the air elemental to sweep up the party in its whirlwind and then drop them in front of the earth elemental, hopefully leaving them prone and damaged for its full attack. In my party, Min was the ONLY one to fail the reflex save, so she ended up being dropped ALONE in front of the earth elemental. Fortunately, she had readied a glitterdust on her turn for "if an elemental swings at a party member" (we weren't initially sure if they were hostile) - she hadn't expected to be the one in the line of fire, but the ready still went off. She needed to use her reroll item to get the earth elemental to fail its save, but it did fail, so only connected with one of its two slam attacks, and she could move away without provoking an AoO on the next round. Still, again, it was a disquieting experience, and one that strongly influenced her L7 spell selection.
Just a note: are you familiar with the advice in Complete Mage (p.14 and p.25, maybe other places as well) advising arcanists to take Sculpt Spell because it "permits you to create four isolated 10-foot cubes anywhere within range of your spell"?
The advice in Complete Mage isn't an LG-binding rules source, but it's a pretty clear indication of how WotC thinks the feat should work, and it seems like most of the arguments against separating the cubes were based on perceived intent. I know I've seen a lot less table variation on this issue since CM came out with that wording - in fact, I've never had a GM rule the cubes can't be separated after pointing out that text to them, and I've seen several change their previous ruling (not saying the former can't happen, just that I haven't seen it).
Yes I am, and as complete mage isn't binding most of the Gms in my area don't approve.
I view split/repeat spell as being needed for that effect.
However, I was just letting him know there was such table variation exist. A lot of people view scuplt spell as a stupid metamagic feat, and we have a lot of people who have strong opinions.
you'd notice that I let you do it when I DMed you last with glitterdust btw)
I just feel that it goes against the idea of scuplting spells.
Yes I am, and as complete mage isn't binding most of the Gms in my area don't approve.
I view split/repeat spell as being needed for that effect.
However, I was just letting him know there was such table variation exist. A lot of people view scuplt spell as a stupid metamagic feat, and we have a lot of people who have strong opinions.
you'd notice that I let you do it when I DMed you last with glitterdust btw)
I just feel that it goes against the idea of scuplting spells.
I have the feat, and I think there are arguments for both sides that are pretty solid. When a DM lets me sculpt the cubes separately I look at as gravy. I need to find that quote in the CM and start showing it to my DMs though! Maybe I'll get a pass.
Just a note: are you familiar with the advice in Complete Mage (p.14 and p.25, maybe other places as well) advising arcanists to take Sculpt Spell because it "permits you to create four isolated 10-foot cubes anywhere within range of your spell"?
The advice in Complete Mage isn't an LG-binding rules source, but it's a pretty clear indication of how WotC thinks the feat should work, and it seems like most of the arguments against separating the cubes were based on perceived intent. I know I've seen a lot less table variation on this issue since CM came out with that wording - in fact, I've never had a GM rule the cubes can't be separated after pointing out that text to them, and I've seen several change their previous ruling (not saying the former can't happen, just that I haven't seen it).
I'll have to check with my local DMs about that. And I'll take Complete Mage along just in case.
He should take Phantom Steed at L11 then - it's Az's very favorite "don't be there" spell, and you can give it to your friends too for great party mobility
Yeah, that's almost as good as Fly, better in some ways.
Azrien has died once at L15, attempting to solo an EL 20 optional encounter against a creature she considered to be an "enemy of magic" after the rest of her party decided not to try it. (We'd just come out of an extremely challenging APL 16 two-rounder with a slightly underpowered convention table: I can entirely understand why the others didn't want to take on the extended play option. The GM offered to run the encounter for me solo, and Azi has Wis 8 and delusions of invincibility, so I gave it a try ;) ) She did pretty well, given the situation: she lasted five rounds (until she rolled a 3 against one of the multiple DC-36 save-or-dies it was spamming every round - up until that point my rolls had been insanely good), took off about 3/4 of the monster's hit points, used up all its reroll abilities, and bounced one of its DC 36 save-or-dies back at it - it passed (needed a 1 to fail), but it was still pretty cool
Min has never died. There were two occasions where she came close, both around L5-6 - L7 was when she picked up Dragonskin + False Life + Mage Armor. See spoilerblock for details.ShowThe first time, she was fighting a bunch of shadar-kai rogues and beguilers (with hide in plain sight). She'd been spending the fight spamming glitterdusts, using her cat familiar's scent ability to tell her where the bad guys were, so her cat was out in the open. One of the beguilers colorsprayed her, her riding dog, and her cat: she passed the save, but her animals both failed. She retaliated with glitterdust and attempted a fast dismount to get off her dog - when she succeeded, since she had a move action left, she used it to pick up her stunned cat (fearing that some of the glitterdusted-but-not-blinded rogues would retaliate against the cat).
Now, at this point I thought we'd glitterdusted all the shadar-kai, but I'd miscounted
In her second near-death experience, she fought a large-earth-elemental + large-air-elemental pair. Their tactics were for the air elemental to sweep up the party in its whirlwind and then drop them in front of the earth elemental, hopefully leaving them prone and damaged for its full attack. In my party, Min was the ONLY one to fail the reflex save, so she ended up being dropped ALONE in front of the earth elemental. Fortunately, she had readied a glitterdust on her turn for "if an elemental swings at a party member" (we weren't initially sure if they were hostile) - she hadn't expected to be the one in the line of fire, but the ready still went off. She needed to use her reroll item to get the earth elemental to fail its save, but it did fail, so only connected with one of its two slam attacks, and she could move away without provoking an AoO on the next round. Still, again, it was a disquieting experience, and one that strongly influenced her L7 spell selection.
Just a note on Sculpt:
I as a GM rule that the 10 foot cubes need to at least touch on the Apex. I find that to be the intent of the spell, to change the SHAPE rather than to SPLIT the effects.
This is an opinion backed by most GMs I know, so just a heads up. (not trying to start an arguement here)
I don't see the intent of the spell to allow say, 4 seperate cubes of the same spell affecting various areas on the opposite side of the battlemat. (especially when one considers boreal wind)
Beyond your perception of 'intent' do you have any backing for this?
Likewise do you believe that the 'intent' of sculpt is not to crop the shapes because of the range of the spell? That is say a sculpted burning hands into a 120' line would be able to go more than 15'?
I've heard this argument before.. but beyond the 'I want it to be this way' I haven't seen support for it. I'd be interested in seeing if there was any anywhere.
-James
Beyond your perception of 'intent' do you have any backing for this?
Likewise do you believe that the 'intent' of sculpt is not to crop the shapes because of the range of the spell? That is say a sculpted burning hands into a 120' line would be able to go more than 15'?
I've heard this argument before.. but beyond the 'I want it to be this way' I haven't seen support for it. I'd be interested in seeing if there was any anywhere.
-James
Well I'm in favor of the more liberal interpretation of the cubes, but I really think that the range thing is correct. Spells cannot exist outside of their range, and nothing in the description of sculpt changes that. If you target a fireball at the maximum of the range, you're not going to get the full 20 foot radius out of it. Why would a +1 metamagic feat give a spell 105' of range in addition to changing its shape?
Beyond your perception of 'intent' do you have any backing for this?
Likewise do you believe that the 'intent' of sculpt is not to crop the shapes because of the range of the spell? That is say a sculpted burning hands into a 120' line would be able to go more than 15'?
I've heard this argument before.. but beyond the 'I want it to be this way' I haven't seen support for it. I'd be interested in seeing if there was any anywhere.
-James
1. Sculpt refers to a single area.
2. Its only a +1 metamagic feat whilst split/etc are more
3. What does the word SCULPT mean?
I view the advice in Complete mage as one interpretation of one author of scuplt spell and not a binding rules source from the original book. We all know that occasionally idiots write things that don't make sense based on what they think at first glance. (See the FAQ)
That is what I am basing it on. I am happy for you to make a spell mutable with scuplt spell - clearly the intent, but splitting a fireball so the bead flies off and explodes in four seperate areas is a bit much, the same with a glitterdust. I do not view that as the spell's intent, and If I knew the authors of complete mage I would ask them what the hell they were thinking.
That is just one interpretation. Unfortunately it was encoded in a printed splatbook without thought, as is typical of WoTc products. FORTUNATELY we do not use that interpretation, and like the way we used to view polymorph, it makes more sense.
Where, reading the original sculpt spell are you getting the idea that you can have 4 independent effects? 4 ten foot cubes does not mean four independent cubes asfaik.. that is a leap of the imagination for a better effect, rather than thinking about it rationally as a SCULPT.
1. "The sculpted spell works normall in ALL areas except for its SHAPE" Independent effects are not a matter of shape...
2. "You modifiy an area spell by changing its shape"
3. "four ten foot cubes" = You can choose how to place them at the time, but its still an area effect, and they in my ruling, need to at least be touching at the apex IMHO.
Thats where I am getting it from. The original feat, not some random interpretation of it by some other authors later on.
Getting back to the OP, here's my take on it.
1) Extra spell is a complete waste of a feat.
2) Knock is a complete waste of a spell known.
And that's because a sorceror spell list is an incredibly difficult thing to build. You want to make sure you have things which will be useful (like false life and mage armor) ALL the time. Your spells should also work with your meta-magic feats, and hopefully, convey a sense of style too.
So, Buy a scroll of knock, and take it out if you need it. Rarely will you need more than one in a mod, and that's not even every mod. Likewise, you can get by with a short spell list, if you're careful with it.
3) Wall of Ice was my first 4th level spell, and I LOVE it. LOVE. And I'm a fire savant too. It's offense, it's defense, it's buy yourself some time.
4) In a lot of ways, sculpt spell and non-lethal spell both allow you a way around the hostage/civilian situation. Hit the bad guys, without killing the good guys. So, either one could be taken. I like sculpt a bit more, but it requires a certain amount of area spells to really make best use of it. You've got grease, glitterdust, and fireball, but that's it. Another one might be useful, like, I don't know, darkness? web? whatever.
5) Transdimensional spell has two benefits, as far as I can tell. One is that you'll have more than empowered magic missiles when the dread wraiths come. But the other, is that, should you be on the ethereal plane, you can fire back at the material plane at will.
I recommend this one, with the level five spell -Improved Blink-. Seriously, read what this does, and then think about the possibilities. It's worth buying a brooch of shielding, or taking shield as a 1st level spell. Or, a ring of counterspells with an orb of force, to stop the really mean spell.
6) For spells in the future, I'd think of the following.
Third level: Displacement, Phantom Steed, SMIII (use that heritage!) or Dispel Magic
Fourth level: Dimension Door, Phantasmal Killer, Dimension Door, Orb of something that isn't acid, or Dimension Door.
Well, I'm going to bypass the sculpt spell argument, which probably deserves it's own thread elsewhere.
Getting back to the OP, here's my take on it.
1) Extra spell is a complete waste of a feat.
2) Knock is a complete waste of a spell known.
And that's because a sorceror spell list is an incredibly difficult thing to build. You want to make sure you have things which will be useful (like false life and mage armor) ALL the time. Your spells should also work with your meta-magic feats, and hopefully, convey a sense of style too.
So, Buy a scroll of knock, and take it out if you need it. Rarely will you need more than one in a mod, and that's not even every mod. Likewise, you can get by with a short spell list, if you're careful with it.
3) Wall of Ice was my first 4th level spell, and I LOVE it. LOVE. And I'm a fire savant too. It's offense, it's defense, it's buy yourself some time.
4) In a lot of ways, sculpt spell and non-lethal spell both allow you a way around the hostage/civilian situation. Hit the bad guys, without killing the good guys. So, either one could be taken. I like sculpt a bit more, but it requires a certain amount of area spells to really make best use of it. You've got grease, glitterdust, and fireball, but that's it. Another one might be useful, like, I don't know, darkness? web? whatever.
5) Transdimensional spell has two benefits, as far as I can tell. One is that you'll have more than empowered magic missiles when the dread wraiths come. But the other, is that, should you be on the ethereal plane, you can fire back at the material plane at will.
I recommend this one, with the level five spell -Improved Blink-. Seriously, read what this does, and then think about the possibilities. It's worth buying a brooch of shielding, or taking shield as a 1st level spell. Or, a ring of counterspells with an orb of force, to stop the really mean spell.
6) For spells in the future, I'd think of the following.
Third level: Displacement, Phantom Steed, SMIII (use that heritage!) or Dispel Magic
Fourth level: Dimension Door, Phantasmal Killer, Dimension Door, Orb of something that isn't acid, or Dimension Door.
I see that you like Dim Door. It's on the short list of 4th level spells for my sorcerer to take. And Improved (or was that Greater) Blink occurred to me too.
I haven't really considered summoning spells all that much. But it is an option. Summon Monster 4 is more interesting as there are a LOT of 3rd level spells that I'd like to take.
It's not QUITE that hard to build an effective sorcerer spell list. But it isn't easy either. And it does take a decent bit of thought to make sure you've got a decent number of bases covered.
I believe you can empower it, as well, and get 50% more critters.
As for Transdimensional spell, I feel like it is transitive, does work the way I think it does, and I'll just agree to disagree.
For the spell list, I've played with some really bad sorcerors. Some people can do it, and others can't.
Well, for a sorceror, a summon spell gives a lot of versatility. SM IV allows one fourth level, or 1-3 3rd level, or 2-5 2nd level.
I believe you can empower it, as well, and get 50% more critters.
As for Transdimensional spell, I feel like it is transitive, does work the way I think it does, and I'll just agree to disagree.
For the spell list, I've played with some really bad sorcerors. Some people can do it, and others can't.
That's why I'm here asking for advice. I want to make sure that I do it right, chiefly because I want to play an effective character and because my prior primary character was trash. My rogue wizard was so bad that other players have said things like "I'm glad you stopped playing him." and I agree with them. It took me far too long to admit that.
1. Wall of ice is a good versatile spell, but my rap on it is that if you cast it too close to an enemy, he can disrupt it with a reflex save. I do like it on a build with fireball...you can fireball your own wall of ice to make a fog cloud for a little extra synergy.
2. Sculpt spell and the 4 cubes. I am one of those who used to rule they had to be contiguous. I am known for holding fairly strong opinions once I've made up my mind. However I found the CM entry fairly conclusive for intent, and I found the CA entry inconclusive (as in...it is perfectly valid to read it either way, so I'm left to try to guess author intent). So I changed, and now allow separated cubes. Where I play, this opinion is by far the majority opinion now, whereas before CM it was about a 50/50 split. As a player I don't care. If told I can't do it, my sorceress will cope. She played most of her career with her player not using that tactic because he thought it was illegal, even if the GM allowed it
3. Your list is weak on mobility spells. By level 9-12, an arcane caster is supposed to have a way to move the party. This can be either teleport or fly or some variation that is similar in effect. By 12, they're usually expected to have both a strategic travel option and a tactical option option.
Examples of strategic movement are teleport, shadow walk, phantom steed and for the divine casters or someone who somehow got it as a domain spell...wind walk.
Examples of tactical movement are benign or baleful transposition, fly, dim door, mass fly and (if used properly) oddball things like feather fall, tenser disk, servant horde, TK violent thrust, summoning an air elemental to sweep up the party or polymorphing your familiar into a size large dragon to carry people places....
My sorceress really didn't get the combination of feats and spells to do that right until level 11, before that she limped along with swift-fly, servant horde and tenser's disks...which worked but were awkward. Although she COULD do movement oriented things with those spells that vanilla sorcerers who took fly and/or dim door couldn't dream of doing. (like the time she transported an entire platoon of archers at light warhorse speeds to a battlefield via repeated tenser's disk castings...by riding her horse and trailing a lot of disks, each carrying two archers...)
Can you...
Target all three saves?
Do direct damage
Control the battlefield
Be mobile
Do ability damage
Deal with SR
Deal with high AC opponents
Deal with energy resistances/immunities
Deal with a civilian situation
Power-down an opponent with 82 spells up?
Buff your comrades?
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That's my list, and it's helped me immensely. Some of these things, I notice you're already good at, and some will do.
Glitterdust, for example, can be used on crowds of civilians because it doesn't kill anyone. A blind civilian isn't really at much of a disadvantage, the assassin/hill giant/half-dragon stirge was going to be able to hit them anyway.
Wall of ice and grease are good battlefield control (as is SM IV, in a different kind of way).
However, you don't have anything like bestow curse or ray of enfeeblement or even reduce person to penalize your foes. Dispel also can work here, targetting weapons/armor/glowing crystal skulls can help.
Good advice so far. Few comments.
1. Wall of ice is a good versatile spell, but my rap on it is that if you cast it too close to an enemy, he can disrupt it with a reflex save. I do like it on a build with fireball...you can fireball your own wall of ice to make a fog cloud for a little extra synergy.
3. Your list is weak on mobility spells. By level 9-12, an arcane caster is supposed to have a way to move the party. This can be either teleport or fly or some variation that is similar in effect. By 12, they're usually expected to have both a strategic travel option and a tactical option option.
Examples of strategic movement are teleport, shadow walk, phantom steed and for the divine casters or someone who somehow got it as a domain spell...wind walk.
Examples of tactical movement are benign or baleful transposition, fly, dim door, mass fly and (if used properly) oddball things like feather fall, tenser disk, servant horde, TK violent thrust, summoning an air elemental to sweep up the party or polymorphing your familiar into a size large dragon to carry people places....
My sorceress really didn't get the combination of feats and spells to do that right until level 11, before that she limped along with swift-fly, servant horde and tenser's disks...which worked but were awkward. Although she COULD do movement oriented things with those spells that vanilla sorcerers who took fly and/or dim door couldn't dream of doing. (like the time she transported an entire platoon of archers at light warhorse speeds to a battlefield via repeated tenser's disk castings...by riding her horse and trailing a lot of disks, each carrying two archers...)
Lack of mobility is a problem that I'm working on. I'll at least take either Dim Door or Fly come level 9, if not both. Although Phantom Steed is tempting, I'll hold off on it until later, when it gets a few more goodies.
Unfortunately, I don't have access to Baleful or Benign Transposition. I have a wand of Baleful Transposition, but it only has 5 charges left.
In that case, I'd look at the spell list from the other side of the microscope...
Can you...
1: Target all three saves?
2: Do direct damage
3: Control the battlefield
4: Be mobile
5: Do ability damage
6: Deal with SR
7: Deal with high AC opponents
8: Deal with energy resistances/immunities
9: Deal with a civilian situation
10: Power-down an opponent with 82 spells up?
11: Buff your comrades?
Going down the list:
1: Yes, though my attacks against fort and will saves are slightly limited
2: Oh hell yes!
3: Grease and Wall of Ice can do a good job, provided the barbarian doesn't run past the wall. (Long story, the barb lived, but it was close.)
4: Not so much. Haste and an Anklet of Translocation are the best I've got right now. I've noticed that having fly could help out greatly.
5: Not yet. I'll have to look into that.
6: Yes. I have multiple SR: No spells and the Howl is Supernatural.
7: Yes, if only by applying #2 repeatedly ;)
8: Yes and Yes.
9: Currently, I'm limited. Sculpt at level 9 will help a lot here.
10: No. I can only slam him with the spells I've got.
11: Haste has proven very useful.
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That's my list, and it's helped me immensely. Some of these things, I notice you're already good at, and some will do.
Glitterdust, for example, can be used on crowds of civilians because it doesn't kill anyone. A blind civilian isn't really at much of a disadvantage, the assassin/hill giant/half-dragon stirge was going to be able to hit them anyway.
Wall of ice and grease are good battlefield control (as is SM IV, in a different kind of way).
However, you don't have anything like bestow curse or ray of enfeeblement or even reduce person to penalize your foes. Dispel also can work here, targetting weapons/armor/glowing crystal skulls can help.
So far my sorcerer has been very good at direct damage. Mobility, Debuffing and Ability Damage seem to be the greatest holes right now.
Target all three saves?
I think a better way to put it is "do you have an option for opponents with ungodly high fort/ref/will" (spells with no save at all are often very good - the thing to avoid is having a wide array of spells that all target the same save and can be negated by a save or evasion). Azrien's only fort-save spell is Disintegrate I think, and she would never use that as a damage spell, because she has no-save spells that do more damage than disintegrate even if they fail the save. I've never really missed the option to have my spells negated on a fort save ;)
Do ability damage
I don't think you need to be able to do ability damage to be a good sorcerer. Debuffing is good, but this is too specific. Spells that do actual ability damage are very few and far between, and afaik all the Open ones are negated on a successful save. Negative levels, ability penalties and nasty status conditions work just about as well ;)
Deal with high AC opponents
Yeah - and add "deal with high touch AC and/or grappling opponents" to this.
Power-down an opponent with 82 spells up?
Note that this doesn't have to be dispelling. I know Brad's sorcerer and Azrien both made it happily to L15 without any form of dispelling magic. It's very hard to be immune to all a well-built mid-high-level sorcerer's tricks.
A few other things (some more specific than others):
- Kill Mirror Images (Quickened Whirling Blade is usually the best option if you have it, Quickened Magic Missile probably the second-best) - it's a common and annoying buff spell that other PCs often have trouble with
- Cope with enemies with Freedom of Movement and Magic Circle vs X - these protections are long-lasting and tend to shut down huge swathes of spells if you can't dispel them, so you either need to be good at dispelling or have a wide variety of options (I prefer the latter approach tbh - dispelling is pretty swingy for a high-level combat action, unless you invest a lot in it)
- Cope with undead, and other enemies immune to mind-affecting and death effects
- Deal with (lesser) globes of invulnerability (the problem with having all your high-level spells as utility and relying on metamagicked low-level spells for offence)
- Deal with monsters with ALL high saves and/or resistance to all elements (except sonic - sonic resist is very rare)
- Fight at Long range OR defend the whole party against attacks from Long range OR be able to get the whole party into Close-Medium range quickly
- Fight swarms and large groups of mooks
- Get yourself out of a grapple
- Reveal invisible creatures
- Deal with incorporeals
Having some divination abilities is also really nice. You can be a very effective sorc without them, but they're still nice. You don't need a lot of the things on my list above, but I've seen those situations come up often enough that it's good to have a plan for them.
UMiskatonic's list looks pretty good, but just a couple of notes on it...
I think a better way to put it is "do you have an option for opponents with ungodly high fort/ref/will" (spells with no save at all are often very good - the thing to avoid is having a wide array of spells that all target the same save and can be negated by a save or evasion). Azrien's only fort-save spell is Disintegrate I think, and she would never use that as a damage spell, because she has no-save spells that do more damage than disintegrate even if they fail the save. I've never really missed the option to have my spells negated on a fort save ;)
I don't think you need to be able to do ability damage to be a good sorcerer. Debuffing is good, but this is too specific. Spells that do actual ability damage are very few and far between, and afaik all the Open ones are negated on a successful save. Negative levels, ability penalties and nasty status conditions work just about as well ;)
Yeah - and add "deal with high touch AC and/or grappling opponents" to this.
Note that this doesn't have to be dispelling. I know Brad's sorcerer and Azrien both made it happily to L15 without any form of dispelling magic. It's very hard to be immune to all a well-built mid-high-level sorcerer's tricks.
A few other things (some more specific than others):
- Kill Mirror Images (Quickened Whirling Blade is usually the best option if you have it, Quickened Magic Missile probably the second-best) - it's a common and annoying buff spell that other PCs often have trouble with
- Cope with enemies with Freedom of Movement and Magic Circle vs X - these protections are long-lasting and tend to shut down huge swathes of spells if you can't dispel them, so you either need to be good at dispelling or have a wide variety of options (I prefer the latter approach tbh - dispelling is pretty swingy for a high-level combat action, unless you invest a lot in it)
- Cope with undead, and other enemies immune to mind-affecting and death effects
- Deal with (lesser) globes of invulnerability (the problem with having all your high-level spells as utility and relying on metamagicked low-level spells for offence)
- Deal with monsters with ALL high saves and/or resistance to all elements (except sonic - sonic resist is very rare)
- Fight at Long range OR defend the whole party against attacks from Long range OR be able to get the whole party into Close-Medium range quickly
- Fight swarms and large groups of mooks
- Get yourself out of a grapple
- Reveal invisible creatures
- Deal with incorporeals
Having some divination abilities is also really nice. You can be a very effective sorc without them, but they're still nice. You don't need a lot of the things on my list above, but I've seen those situations come up often enough that it's good to have a plan for them.
Oddly enough, for my sorcerer, a number of those problems boil down to "Spam damage spells on them until they die." That works especially well against swarms and mooks.
Other problems are already covered by equipment and spells known for Lukas. (See Invis + Glitterdust. The Anklet.)
But that is a good "Beyond the basics, there's more to consider." list. I'll be keeping both lists in mind as my sorcerer levels up.
Note that this doesn't have to be dispelling. I know Brad's sorcerer and Azrien both made it happily to L15 without any form of dispelling magic. It's very hard to be immune to all a well-built mid-high-level sorcerer's tricks.
Dispelling is way to unreliable for an arcane. We don't have the stuff clerics have, like a domain that gives +4 to the check, beads of karma etc. Barring a feat investment (Arcane mastery, mostly and a bard cohort tuned to crank caster level) and an equipment investment (cranking caster levels) it's not as good an action as just killing the guy with 84 buffs spells on him.
I find that 15 enchanted size large greatswords to the face combined with stripping mirror images with quickened whirling blade puts a cramp in most spellcasters style. Yeah the defenses help, but often not enough. Certainly I can interrupt their spellcasting...
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A few other things (some more specific than others):
- Kill Mirror Images (Quickened Whirling Blade is usually the best option if you have it, Quickened Magic Missile probably the second-best) - it's a common and annoying buff spell that other PCs often have trouble with
And the arcane is the guy people look to to solve this problem. Either be able to kill the guy or incapacitate him without the images causing you an issue or have a low-opportunity-cost way of stripping the images.
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- Cope with enemies with Freedom of Movement and Magic Circle vs X -
This is spell dependent. Sorcerers with a decent direct damage component are rarely bothered by this. Those that rely on debuffs have a harder time. Some battlefield control is not affected by FoM. Have one of those on your list. (eg...wall of ice qualifies. solid fog at least still blocks vision so partially qualifies. Evards doesn't qualify, FoM will laugh at it)
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- Cope with undead, and other enemies immune to mind-affecting and death effects
Again, even if you normally like debuffs most sorcerers have a direct damage spell or two that can be used
- Deal with (lesser) globes of invulnerability (the problem with having all your high-level spells as utility and relying on metamagicked low-level spells for offence)
Hm...never had that as a problem. Encountered only a couple across all chars.
- Deal with monsters with ALL high saves and/or resistance to all elements (except sonic - sonic resist is very rare)
Yeah. Many high level monsters "bad" save is still huge, due to huge hit dice.
- Fight at Long range OR defend the whole party against attacks from Long range OR be able to get the whole party into Close-Medium range quickly
Yup
- Fight swarms and large groups of mooks
- Get yourself out of a grapple
or cope with it. Olivia can now cast most of her spell list while grappled in a silence field...
- Reveal invisible creatures
or kill them for the party if you have a general idea where they are. Although it is usually easier to pack a scroll of glitterdust and let the party **** the invisible target
- Deal with incorporeals
Again, this is usually direct damage, sometimes mobility. Not always force...sufficient alternate direct damage spammed will get the job done eventually, while the melee types focus on what you missed. If you do more than 2x what you're doing with force effects, use your bigger effect unless the smaller force one will finish off a critter.
- Cope with enemies with Freedom of Movement and Magic Circle vs X -
This is spell dependent. Sorcerers with a decent direct damage component are rarely bothered by this. Those that rely on debuffs have a harder time. Some battlefield control is not affected by FoM. Have one of those on your list. (eg...wall of ice qualifies. solid fog at least still blocks vision so partially qualifies. Evards doesn't qualify, FoM will laugh at it)
Yup. Everything on that list is trivial for some sorcerer builds. Any build with versatile direct damage options is going to laugh at a bunch of these, and any build focused on battlefield control is going to laugh at others (energy resistances and high saves? my evard's and solid fog don't care...)
The point of my list is to think about how your sorcerer build will deal with these situations, whether your normal tactics will work and if not what you need to replace them with, and whether it's worth adding spells to your list specifically to deal with such situations. (e.g. FoM is a good reason to have some walls in your battlefield control)
Thinking about stuff like this does tend to lead to the conclusion that having an array of direct damage options that let you hurt almost anything is a good idea, for when your more sophisticated options just don't work. I don't think that's a bad conclusion for sorc builds to come to - and if they instead choose to rely on just 1-2 direct damage spells with some notable weaknesses (like, say, TK and Whirling Blade ;) ), then it's good to think about what else you would do in situations where another sorc might just spam direct damage. (I know Olivia took Gust of Wind for dealing with swarms, for example, where a more vanilla sorc would drop Fireballs.)
- Deal with (lesser) globes of invulnerability (the problem with having all your high-level spells as utility and relying on metamagicked low-level spells for offence)
Hm...never had that as a problem. Encountered only a couple across all chars.
It's come up a couple of times for me - and Olivia doesn't rely on metamagicked offence nearly as much as Az does. Az's preferred tactic for a while was to overlap a spiritwall bubble on their globe of invulnerability, so they couldn't stand inside and shoot out. Now she has (Frosty, Empowered) Moonbow, she's not worried any more ;)
Deal with monsters with ALL high saves and/or resistance to all elements (except sonic - sonic resist is very rare)
Yeah. Many high level monsters "bad" save is still huge, due to huge hit dice.
The common ways to handle this are:
- Spam no-save / sonic / force direct damage (why orb of force is popular)
- Shoot them with saveless debuffs so your melees can engage them safely (split enervation, empowered ray of enfeeblement, empowered ray of clumsiness, etc)
- Use battlefield control to make sure you're only fighting one at a time
- Use mobility magic to keep squishies out of their threat range
- Get yourself out of a grapple
or cope with it. Olivia can now cast most of her spell list while grappled in a silence field...
Okay, sure, or be Olivia, with Silent Spell + Still Spell + Rapid Metamagic ;) Generically, it's easier to have anklets or take a dimensional travel spell ;)
- Reveal invisible creatures
or kill them for the party if you have a general idea where they are. Although it is usually easier to pack a scroll of glitterdust and let the party **** the invisible target
Yep, true. If you run into a fight where everything is invisible, though, I'd personally want a way to get the rest of the party into action - trying to solo fights gets you targeted and burns spells quite fast. Scroll of Glitterdust + familiar with scent works okay in a pinch: see invis or blindsensing familiar + sculpted glitterdust is better.
- Deal with incorporeals
Again, this is usually direct damage, sometimes mobility. Not always force...sufficient alternate direct damage spammed will get the job done eventually, while the melee types focus on what you missed. If you do more than 2x what you're doing with force effects, use your bigger effect unless the smaller force one will finish off a critter.
Direct damage is often not a very satisfactory solution on powerful incorps, especially at higher levels - you spam it because you don't have anything better to do, and eventually they go down, but they can inflict a lot of pain (Str damage, Con drain, etc) in the meantime. I may overemphasise this because I had a looooong run of mods with advanced dread wraith encounters (touch AC in the mid-30s, con-drain DC in the mid-30s) a few months back - I think it was six mods in a row that had dread wraith encounters. Transdimensional Spell is really the only good Open solution that I'm aware of, so you can trap them in transdimensional webs and stop their spring-attacking. Status effects that work on incorporeals (slow, daze, etc) can also be good, as those don't suffer the 50% avoidance chance - unfortunately they're mostly will-save-based. (Greater) Blink lets you deal with ghosts (but not other incorps) on the ethereal, where they are subject to battlefield control.
"I spam direct damage" is a perfectly reasonable answer here - if you rarely fight incorporeals, there's not much point in spending a feat or a lot of spells on being able to shine in those encounters - but if that's your answer, then you're going to be mostly relying on other party members if you want to kill big incorporeals quickly. If you're the L10 sorcerer with a focus on battlefield control and necromancy debuffs that don't work on undead (or creatures with Str -), whose sole damage spell is Magic Missile, then you will not be very useful at all in a lot of incorporeal encounters. I think it's a good thing to be aware of weaknesses in advance.
Oddly enough, for my sorcerer, a number of those problems boil down to "Spam damage spells on them until they die." That works especially well against swarms and mooks.
Sure, I expect the generic reply to "kill swarms and mooks" to be "FIREBALL!"
However, while the most common way to make an ineffective sorcerer is probably to focus on direct damage above all else, it is also possible to make a utility / battlefield control / debuff sorcerer (maybe with Magic Missile) who is entirely ineffective in many common combat situations. The list I've posted is basically a list of common situations my PCs have been in where the arcanist just couldn't do very much, for one reason or another (I was playing the arcane for some of these, not for others).Other problems are already covered by equipment and spells known for Lukas. (See Invis + Glitterdust. The Anklet.)
But that is a good "Beyond the basics, there's more to consider." list. I'll be keeping both lists in mind as my sorcerer levels up.
Sure - that wasn't a list of "stuff Lukas doesn't do" ;) It was a list of "combat situations I think about when designing my sorc spell lists, either because they come up frequently or because they're crippling when they do come up".
Target all three saves?
Do direct damage
Control the battlefield
Be mobile
Do ability damage
Deal with SR
Deal with high AC opponents
Deal with energy resistances/immunities
Deal with a civilian situation
Power-down an opponent with 82 spells up?
Buff your comrades?
For fun, here's the results for my sorcerers.
Azrien:
Show
Target all three saves?
Fort: Disintegrate (never used for this, though)
Will: Spiritwall, (Sculpted) Glitterdust
Reflex: Freezing Fog, Fireball (runestaff)
No save: most of the rest of her spell list
Do direct damage?
Moonbow, Wall of Fire, Orb of Force, Fireball, Scorching Ray, Rainbow Beam
Apply Sculpt, Empower, Split Ray, Quicken and Energy Substitution (Cold) to taste
Control the battlefield?
Disintegrate (Greater Open), Freezing Fog, (Sculpted) Evard's Black Tentacles, Spiritwall
Be mobile?
Mass Fly, Teleport, Phantom Steed, (Quickened) Benign Transposition
Do ability damage?
Per se, no. If you mean debuffs...
Enervation, Ray of Enfeeblement
Apply Split Ray, Empower and Quicken to taste
Deal with SR
Freezing Fog, Spiritwall, Assay SR, Orb of Force, Evard's Black Tentacles, Glitterdust
Apply Empower, Sculpt, Quicken to taste
Deal with high AC opponents
If it's not touch AC, it makes no difference to her. If it is touch AC, use area spells or battlefield control. If the problem is cover/concealment, use Guided Shot. If they're incorporeal, Ghost Trap :D
Deal with energy resistances/immunities
See above range of direct damage and battlefield control spells.
Deal with a civilian situation
Sculpted Glitterdust, Empowered Split Rays of Enfeeblement, Spiritwall (fear effect), and Tongues + Friendly Face for talking to people ;) (also Sculpted and ranged-touch-based offence for the bad guys)
Power-down an opponent with 82 spells up?
Greater Dispel, Battlemagic Perception ("How did he get those 82 spells up in the first place?"), Sculpted LimWish: Antimagic Field if all else fails.
Buff your comrades?
Mass Fly, Greater Magic Weapon, Phantom Steed, Quickened Benign Transposition for shuttling people into full attacks, warweaver cohort ;)
Fort: Disintegrate (never used for this, though)
Will: Spiritwall, (Sculpted) Glitterdust
Reflex: Freezing Fog, Fireball (runestaff)
No save: most of the rest of her spell list
Do direct damage?
Moonbow, Wall of Fire, Orb of Force, Fireball, Scorching Ray, Rainbow Beam
Apply Sculpt, Empower, Split Ray, Quicken and Energy Substitution (Cold) to taste
Control the battlefield?
Disintegrate (Greater Open), Freezing Fog, (Sculpted) Evard's Black Tentacles, Spiritwall
Be mobile?
Mass Fly, Teleport, Phantom Steed, (Quickened) Benign Transposition
Do ability damage?
Per se, no. If you mean debuffs...
Enervation, Ray of Enfeeblement
Apply Split Ray, Empower and Quicken to taste
Deal with SR
Freezing Fog, Spiritwall, Assay SR, Orb of Force, Evard's Black Tentacles, Glitterdust
Apply Empower, Sculpt, Quicken to taste
Deal with high AC opponents
If it's not touch AC, it makes no difference to her. If it is touch AC, use area spells or battlefield control. If the problem is cover/concealment, use Guided Shot. If they're incorporeal, Ghost Trap :D
Deal with energy resistances/immunities
See above range of direct damage and battlefield control spells.
Deal with a civilian situation
Sculpted Glitterdust, Empowered Split Rays of Enfeeblement, Spiritwall (fear effect), and Tongues + Friendly Face for talking to people ;) (also Sculpted and ranged-touch-based offence for the bad guys)
Power-down an opponent with 82 spells up?
Greater Dispel, Battlemagic Perception ("How did he get those 82 spells up in the first place?"), Sculpted LimWish: Antimagic Field if all else fails.
Buff your comrades?
Mass Fly, Greater Magic Weapon, Phantom Steed, Quickened Benign Transposition for shuttling people into full attacks, warweaver cohort ;)
I've never seen a Sphered enemy be a significant challenge once it came down and mostly they've got trapped first time -which may be related to targetting choices but that's ok there are always other options.
It's also one of the very few RefSave-or-really-suffer spells (area damage being generally weak in the hands of PCs for one reason or another).
"I spam direct damage" is a perfectly reasonable answer here - if you rarely fight incorporeals, there's not much point in spending a feat or a lot of spells on being able to shine in those encounters - but if that's your answer, then you're going to be mostly relying on other party members if you want to kill big incorporeals quickly. If you're the L10 sorcerer with a focus on battlefield control and necromancy debuffs that don't work on undead (or creatures with Str -), whose sole damage spell is Magic Missile, then you will not be very useful at all in a lot of incorporeal encounters. I think it's a good thing to be aware of weaknesses in advance.
Yeh. My toolkit was:
magic missile in low levels
ottiluke's sphere and whirling blade with ghostblight in mid levels
wall of force, magic missile+quicken magic missile, disintegrate in higher levels.
(disintigrate for the spring attacker incorporeals. you can often guess where they are well enough for a 10x10 section of wall to vanish, much to the delight of your party full-attackers)
Resilient sphere is a defensive measure vs incorporeals. You cast it on the con, level or strength-drained guy, to keep him from becoming undead. Risking an action vs the reflex save of most incorporeals, especially an advanced one, is a lose. Olivia never EVER stuck it on an enemy....not even aberrations or clerics-without-FOM....enemies you'd think would be easy targets. She retrained it away eventually.
She's got cyclonic blast and lesser dragonshape (familiar) for area stuff now, if facing tons of weaker incorporeals and wanting to thin it out. Aside from dread wraiths, telekenesing 15 magic weapons tends to work pretty well on the undead too (and at APL15, she can hit AC25 a lot of the time too...so dread wraiths are back on the table). So what if 8 miss? The other 7 hit, and for more than magic missile+quicken magic missile.
Also mass fly or chain levitate often helps a ton in incorporeal encounters. yes, they can fly better than you usually, but they usually can't do that and spring attack to cover. I didn't fight as many advanced dread wraiths as Azzie, but Olivia's met her share, in all APL ranges from 8-16 and she usually found something useful to do.
(disintigrate for the spring attacker incorporeals. you can often guess where they are well enough for a 10x10 section of wall to vanish, much to the delight of your party full-attackers)
If you have some room to maneuver in, this works well with mass fly too: the further you can get from the walls, the less room they'll have to move after spring-attacking. In a small room, the tactic's effectiveness does depend pretty heavily on whether the GM anticipates it.
Risking an action vs the reflex save of most incorporeals, especially an advanced one, is a lose. Olivia never EVER stuck it on an enemy....not even aberrations or clerics-without-FOM....enemies you'd think would be easy targets.
Heh. I remember when Azi and Olivia were fighting an airwalking cleric, and he had a +3 Ref save, and he didn't fail a single save vs empowered fireballs or resilient spheres in the whole fight, the GM kept rolling 17+. It was sad...
Also mass fly or chain levitate often helps a ton in incorporeal encounters. yes, they can fly better than you usually, but they usually can't do that and spring attack to cover. I didn't fight as many advanced dread wraiths as Azzie, but Olivia's met her share, in all APL ranges from 8-16 and she usually found something useful to do.
I keep meeting them in small, confined spaces. Azi was starting to get a bit claustrophobic ;) Of course, she hasn't met any incorporeals at all since getting Ghost Trap... the next incorps she meets are going to discover the joys of grapple :D
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Target all three saves? - as a rule I dislike save/xx spells on single targets
Fort: Gust Wind, Disintegrate (never used and not likeley to be used)
Will: telekenesis
Reflex: sculpted grease, cyclonic blast (at L15)
Grapple: evards, telekenesis
No save: the rest of her offensive spell list
Do direct damage?
magic missile, whirling blade, telekenesis violent thrust (and GMW'd ammo/weapons or normal splash weapons or light infantry+GMW bolts),
cyclonic blast (L15), lesser dragonshape(familiar, L15)
Control the battlefield?
sculpted grease, servant horde+smokesticks, evards tentacles, solid fog, wall of force, disintegrate, gust wind (to remove fog effects, including her own)
Be mobile?
tenser disk, various unseen servant variants (normal, servant horde, mass unseen servant, depending on level), swift fly, overland flight, aeriel alacraty, TK violent thrust on willing ally that doesn't weigh too much, (chain) levitate, phantom steed.
Do ability damage?
Why? Never needed to.
Deal with SR
She has exactly two offensive spells that notice SR (magic missile and cyclonic blast). When doing Demonweb Pits, she never even noticed that drow had SR.
Deal with high AC opponents
None of her battlefield control cares. Reduces direct damage to magic missile, her two L15 spells (cyclonic blast, lesser dragonshape). TK violent thrust splash weapons (no longer used much now that she has cyclonic blast but she keeps holy water around for DR reasons). Reduce enemy AC via grapple or "trip" (grease). Against most high AC enemies, she was able to set up the physical attackers well enough. She never saw this as a weakness, even though options are reduced. She's much more handicapped underwater, even with the (chain) swim spell on her list.
Deal with energy resistances/immunities
She doesn't use energy attacks, except TK violent thrust splash weapons in levels 11-14 and the lesser dragonshape breath weapon. She could do fire or acid then. But without also very high AC, she's usually just hitting enemies with physical weapons or untyped damage.
Deal with a civilian situation
Sculpted grease directly, wall force/solid fog to wall off attackers from squishies, chain levitate as another solution to rescue people, in a few levels ottiluke's sphere, TK in the "will save disarm" or "will save toss" mode to separate a hostage taker from his hostage (or ability to do lethal damage to hostage), TK in the "grapple/pin" maneuver to again take down a hostage-taker. TK grapple or whirling blade "-4 to do nonlethal" to deal with individuals or groups of hostile civilians. Also silent and still spell, backed by significant bluff + slight of hand to cast spells without it being obvious.
Power-down an opponent with 82 spells up?
Just kill them? Most buffs are irrelevant to her spells. Mirror image she strips on a whole line with a quickened action. If the buffs result in very high AC and flying she can still do enough damage with her various offensive tricks to interrupt spellcasting.
Buff your comrades?
phantom steed, greater magic weapon, some uses of servant horde (arming people, applying oils to weapons etc), tossing light infantry around with TK violent thrust, greater mage armor, tenser disk for slowpokes or balance-challenged people or hauling off loot.
Aside from above, her ability to use arcane sight pretty much whenever she wanted, and backed later by analyze dwoemer broke many plots and trivialized many encounters. Her only real self-defense spells were swift fly and false life, until very late when she took greater mage armor, mostly because she adventured with a light infantry type that drained an entire mage armor wand in 3 adaptable rounds, and it fit her theme.
Target all three saves? - as a rule I dislike save/xx spells on single targets
Fort: Gust Wind, Disintegrate (never used and not likeley to be used)
Will: telekenesis
Reflex: sculpted grease, cyclonic blast (at L15)
Grapple: evards, telekenesis
No save: the rest of her offensive spell list
Do direct damage?
magic missile, whirling blade, telekenesis violent thrust (and GMW'd ammo/weapons or normal splash weapons or light infantry+GMW bolts),
cyclonic blast (L15), lesser dragonshape(familiar, L15)
Control the battlefield?
sculpted grease, servant horde+smokesticks, evards tentacles, solid fog, wall of force, disintegrate, gust wind (to remove fog effects, including her own)
Be mobile?
tenser disk, various unseen servant variants (normal, servant horde, mass unseen servant, depending on level), swift fly, overland flight, aeriel alacraty, TK violent thrust on willing ally that doesn't weigh too much, (chain) levitate, phantom steed.
Do ability damage?
Why? Never needed to.
Deal with SR
She has exactly two offensive spells that notice SR (magic missile and cyclonic blast). When doing Demonweb Pits, she never even noticed that drow had SR.
Deal with high AC opponents
None of her battlefield control cares. Reduces direct damage to magic missile, her two L15 spells (cyclonic blast, lesser dragonshape). TK violent thrust splash weapons (no longer used much now that she has cyclonic blast but she keeps holy water around for DR reasons). Reduce enemy AC via grapple or "trip" (grease). Against most high AC enemies, she was able to set up the physical attackers well enough. She never saw this as a weakness, even though options are reduced. She's much more handicapped underwater, even with the (chain) swim spell on her list.
Deal with energy resistances/immunities
She doesn't use energy attacks, except TK violent thrust splash weapons in levels 11-14 and the lesser dragonshape breath weapon. She could do fire or acid then. But without also very high AC, she's usually just hitting enemies with physical weapons or untyped damage.
Deal with a civilian situation
Sculpted grease directly, wall force/solid fog to wall off attackers from squishies, chain levitate as another solution to rescue people, in a few levels ottiluke's sphere, TK in the "will save disarm" or "will save toss" mode to separate a hostage taker from his hostage (or ability to do lethal damage to hostage), TK in the "grapple/pin" maneuver to again take down a hostage-taker. TK grapple or whirling blade "-4 to do nonlethal" to deal with individuals or groups of hostile civilians. Also silent and still spell, backed by significant bluff + slight of hand to cast spells without it being obvious.
Power-down an opponent with 82 spells up?
Just kill them? Most buffs are irrelevant to her spells. Mirror image she strips on a whole line with a quickened action. If the buffs result in very high AC and flying she can still do enough damage with her various offensive tricks to interrupt spellcasting.
Buff your comrades?
phantom steed, greater magic weapon, some uses of servant horde (arming people, applying oils to weapons etc), tossing light infantry around with TK violent thrust, greater mage armor, tenser disk for slowpokes or balance-challenged people or hauling off loot.
Aside from above, her ability to use arcane sight pretty much whenever she wanted, and backed later by analyze dwoemer broke many plots and trivialized many encounters. Her only real self-defense spells were swift fly and false life, until very late when she took greater mage armor, mostly because she adventured with a light infantry type that drained an entire mage armor wand in 3 adaptable rounds, and it fit her theme.
I keep meeting them in small, confined spaces. Azi was starting to get a bit claustrophobic ;) Of course, she hasn't met any incorporeals at all since getting Ghost Trap... the next incorps she meets are going to discover the joys of grapple :D
That's the right envt for disintegrate. The fighters will likely be in full attack range.
Remember the incorporeal can't go deep into the wall. Blowing holes in the walls works less well after the first time as it gets cagier about where it might be, but each hole blown makes the room less claustrophobic
But yeh, ghost trap is much cooler.
until very late when she took greater mage armor, mostly because she adventured with a light infantry type that drained an entire mage armor wand in 3 adaptable rounds, and it fit her theme.
Ummm. How do you do a light infantry type that doesn't have at least a chain shirt, thereby negating any need for/benefit from mage armor?
Heck, my archer type was in a +1 mithral chain shirt before 6th level...
Do you have a spell that acts differently when cast multiple times? See Invisibility as an example is pretty easy for a Sorcerer to keep up all day. It is harder for a Wizard without a lot of expenditure on items. Phantom Steed at higher APL means the entire party can move extremely fast. Etc...think about how you can benefit from the casting of a spell multiple times during a combat or day - that's one of the benefits of Phantom Steed - at higher levels, it lasts longer than you're going to sleep, especially if Lesser Rod of Extended.
Do you see synergy between spells? In one recent mod where there were two beguilers, we ended up casting Invisibility Sphere, Zone of Silence, Arcane Sight, See Invisibility, Message, and Spider Climb in such a way that it affected everyone in the party - i.e. the entire party was invisible, silent to outsiders, and able to get past most obstacles. We walked most of the mod due to this.
Ummm. How do you do a light infantry type that doesn't have at least a chain shirt, thereby negating any need for/benefit from mage armor?
That would be known as a Monk...
That would be known as a Monk...
Or (rarer) a deepwarden or wildrunner who's going to have more CON/DEX than the armor will allow.
To the thread... it's my garnered opinion that sorcerers have to be crafted holistically. There's not one 'best' list of spells, but rather think of each sorcerer as a crafted work of art. If everything works together then it will be a wonderful character. If it's just pieced together from others then it's far less likely to be.
-James
Heh. I remember when Azi and Olivia were fighting an airwalking cleric, and he had a +3 Ref save, and he didn't fail a single save vs empowered fireballs or resilient spheres in the whole fight, the GM kept rolling 17+. It was sad...
I have DMs in my area whose dice can do that from time to time. (The problem got better when my sorcerer's save DCs went up.) Of course, this is the same die that rolled low and didn't dispel most of the magic spells on the party. While underwater. When the party had water breathing cast upon them and was hit by an area dispel.
I'm glad I made this thread. It's become a wellspring of good advice and good examples of sorcerers who have already been successful.
Unfortunately, I don't have access to Baleful or Benign Transposition. I have a wand of Baleful Transposition, but it only has 5 charges left.
Doesn't a wand count as access?
Doesn't a wand count as access?
No, sadly: spells have to be in written form to count as access (my cleric was kind of frustrated when she saw potions of Conviction on an AR
)I think you really missed out by not aiming your Spheres at the enemy -especially when you can try again (or make it reroll).
Gotta love Chain GMW*+TK though ;)
* On large creatswords since I never saw access to super-collossal arrows (best damage:weight ratio was really really big arrows and something else I don't remember when we looked at it -well ordinary arrows have the ratio but you want the most damage/25lb or something for TK ..I just remember the idea of arrows the size of a cart being rather amusing; we only checked the PHB ..oh and the arrows didn't even need the GMW to be chained!)
Advanced DWs are more of a problem of course ...but they wouldn't be noteworthy if they weren't ;)
And DWs are not the only foe you can use these on (in addition to it's value around allies)
Dread Wraith is about 50-50 on the save against RS and then it's effectively dead
It's only 50-50 if the DC is 25, i.e. if you have Cha 32... which I've never seen on a PC. Cha modifiers of +7-+8 are more common, +9 and higher are rare. If the DC is 21, you have a 70% chance that your action is worthless: those aren't good odds. If you've invested in Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration) and you're a fatespinner who's willing to dump all their spin and spend their reroll on getting it to stick, then sure, it becomes a better option, most save-based things do. Even then, though, I can't see why it's "effectively dead": you buy time for the party to buff and surround it, but it will be delaying too inside its bubble, and when the bubble goes down it's going to be a matter of who comes out of delay first (and the wraith has a good init modifier). People can ready, but that means no full attacks.
Honestly, if I'm going to try to stick a save-based spell on a Dread Wraith, I'd rather use Slow. They're a lot less nasty when they can't spring attack, and their Will and Ref saves are equal.
I also don't think solbergb missed out by not trying to stick bubbles on unwilling targets, since I know he did try: I watched some of the attempts. I believe most of the reason it got retrained was the number of wasted actions it was causing
Having to come in and stop was a considerably less fun experience for them.
I'm not entirely clear whether or not it acts like a solid object for them, since it's a force effect. There was a difference of opinion on that, and my reading of the rules is as clear as mud.
That would be known as a Monk...
Well in his case a paladin/monk with decent enough wisdom to cast level 4 paladin spells. But yeah. For him Gr Mage Armor is +8-9 to his AC, mage armor is +6-7 AC if you add his wis bonus to AC. Matching that with light armor is tough, especially when in most parties he gets it via a pearl power 1 in cost. I'm not sure how much he cares about the other monk tricks that fail in armor.
that they can't spring attack because they can't see though it.
Heh. We had a discussion on OpenRPG about whether being unable to see/sense your target prevents spring attack - unlike charge, it doesn't say you need to be able to see your foe, but it does say you don't provoke AoOs from your designated target, which implies you need to designate a target at some point. It doesn't specify how much of an awareness of your target you need to designate them (is "the invisible monster that just attacked my buddy" enough?) nor does it specify at what point in your turn you need to decide. It could be that spring attack is a full-round action, like charge, that must be declared at the beginning of your turn, and you must choose your target then; it seems you could also rule that spring attack simply allows you to move after attacking provided you have movement left and moved at least 10ft before your attack, and you don't need to designate any target until you actually make your attack.
(I'm also not sure why Leomund's would stop blindsight (or lifesense): it doesn't seem to block line of effect, spells / arrows / weapons pass through it normally. This doesn't have anything to do with being incorporeal, I'd let grimlocks see through it for example.)
Rules niggle: I don't think FoM helps you against Resilient sphere (any more than it does against wall of force, a brick wall or being unable to fly).
I think you really missed out by not aiming your Spheres at the enemy -especially when you can try again (or make it reroll).
Olivia is not fond of having any combat rounds that end without the enemy in a worse state than when she started. She did try spamming the stupid spell once vs a rust monster, and failed every time. Then civilians were engangerd and she switched to shielding them from the non-rustmonsters. That proved expensive for the party as the rust monster had to be defeated the hard way. She didn't have wall of force yet, and really needed it.
=====================================
Gotta love Chain GMW*+TK though ;)
* On large creatswords since I never saw access to super-collossal arrows
There are several basic approaches with LG-legal stuff. The basic one is size large bolts (1d6/weapon, and they're not 8' long like the size large arrows so you can actually carry them). With ammo-enhancing spells (gmw, flame arrow, align weapon etc) you can get this pretty respectable.
The "big weapon + chain GMW" is generally done with size large greatswords...axes are ok too but the swords are more durable (important as unattended) and are a better geometry for moving them around with unseen servants and not getting in the way. Even without size large weapons you get really nice damage potential (2d6+3 = 10hp/level if they all hit).
I also did some splash weapon stuff because I didn't have an orb spell, but limited myself to max 10d6 from either fire or acid/round (my basis being the immersion rules...and assuming flaming oil is not as hot as magma). I still use holy water this way, and don't assume an upper limit on damage (so it ends up as 30d4, which is nice at APL15 but not amazing....75ish damage)
Olivia just bought one more trick that requires mass unseen servant or servant horde already running to work properly. 15 sianghams (again 1d6, and as they're just a stick with a point on the end, you can actually visualize someone carrying 15 without being unable to move) equipped with weapon capsule retainers and extra capsules of different types plus potion of bless weapon attached to the outside of the sheath. The idea is that you use the move action "direct the servant horde spell" to have each servant grab weapon as move action, trigger the weapon capsule retainer on the item as its swift action, and as its move action pick up capsule or oil, and as standard, apply to the weapon. The actions don't quite work out unless the servants start out holding either potion or item, and it is probably too complex to really do in most real games.
But when done you can get similar effect to a GMW'd, Flame arrowed, Aligned WEapon crossbow bolts, without needing to know the latter two spells. Not a cheap tactic though (bless weapon+quicksilver, for use on powerful devils, would run you 2250gp to do the tactic.). THe advantage over ammo is that the enhancements that last more than one round remain and you can TK the weapons around in followup rounds.
The first and only time I did a more restricted version of this though, the weapons fell into a crowd and I couldn't target them to re-use them. Doh!
(I'm also not sure why Leomund's would stop blindsight (or lifesense): it doesn't seem to block line of effect, spells / arrows / weapons pass through it normally. This doesn't have anything to do with being incorporeal, I'd let grimlocks see through it for example.)
Leomunds only blocks sight and to some extent temperature.
Barring bizzaro heat-sense or something, nonvisual means of pinpointing or "seeing" PC's will still work.
It's effective because most of the really powerful divinations are still tied to being able to see (true seeing, arcane sight, analyze dwoemer, see invisible) and most "monster" type critters with extrasensory powers that can do more than pinpoint are generally see invis or true seeing, not blindsight.
I'm not entirely clear whether or not it acts like a solid object for them, since it's a force effect. There was a difference of opinion on that, and my reading of the rules is as clear as mud.
It's a force effect, but no part of the effect restricts movement.
(other force effects in this category exist. For example, globe of invulnerability. It affects only spells, not movement. Likewise LH affects temperature and wind and visual LOS, but not movement)
If it doesn't stop a corporeal being it won't stop an incorporeal.
If it stops a corporeal being, it will only stop an incorporeal if it is a force effect or transdimensional.
That's the way to sort out such confusions.
The advice in Complete Mage isn't an LG-binding rules source, but it's a pretty clear indication of how WotC thinks the feat should work,
It's a pretty clear indication of how _one author_ thinks the feat works.
This same author recommends Polar Ray as a spell.
Just a note: are you familiar with the advice in Complete Mage (p.14 and p.25, maybe other places as well) advising arcanists to take Sculpt Spell because it "permits you to create four isolated 10-foot cubes anywhere within range of your spell"?
The advice in Complete Mage isn't an LG-binding rules source, but it's a pretty clear indication of how WotC thinks the feat should work, and it seems like most of the arguments against separating the cubes were based on perceived intent.
I don't think it is an intent argument at all. And Complete Mage's designer's sense of game mechanics and rules knowledge is at best challenged. Look at this gem for Spy:
"Best Prestige Classes: The divine oracle (Complete Arcane) is one of the most spy-oriented prestige classes, but it requires three levels of a divine spellcasting class before progressing as an arcane spell caster."
I don't think there's a correct point in any part of that paragraph. It gives one arguable spy skill(Intimidate), it requires 1 level of almost any spellcasting class to qualify for, and it isn't in Complete Arcane. The one real spy capability if you're required to take three levels of divine spellcasting is granted by Mystic Theurge and then some.
(S) Shapeable
If an Area or Effect entry ends with "(S)," you can shape the spell. A shaped effect or area can have no dimension smaller than 10 feet. Many effects or areas are given as cubes to make it easy to model irregular shapes
Two things:
No dimension smaller than 10 feet - with separated cubes, there is a dimension smaller than 10' inbetween the cubes.
They're allowing you to model irregular shapes, not make multiple shapes. It isn't Fire Storms, it is Fire Storm.
(Personally, I actually think this one is unambiguous, and that Sculpt allows non-contiguous cubes. If you want to discuss it, though, please make a new thread.)
As others said, can we try to keep the Sculpt rules discussion off this thread? I've been deliberately not answering those posts, I don't think it's on-topic and we know this is an argument that can drag out for a long time - it's been argued at length on Infinite Monkeys at least once.
(Personally, I actually think this one is unambiguous, and that Sculpt allows non-contiguous cubes. If you want to discuss it, though, please make a new thread.)
I'll ask my DMs before we start each mod. And I'm with Copperwyrmling, the sculpt debate needs its own thread either on the LG rules boards or in the Feats forum.
I just wanted to stop here and mention how much I like having taken Energy Sub Acid. It's quite hilarious (And effective.) when the big bad casts resist energy fire and then watches it become useless when I hit it with Acidball.
It's not a problem until late in the game, but then it's a gigantic problem for certain builds.
Be careful with that. High CR outsiders are often immune to one, and resistant to the other. Or immune to both.
It's not a problem until late in the game, but then it's a gigantic problem for certain builds.
Immunity to both fire and acid seems rare. Demons are generically immune to electricity and resistant to acid/cold/fire; devils are generically immune to fire and resistant to acid/cold, with electricity as their weakness (I think - doing this from memory, so someone correct me if I've remembered wrong). Resistance 10 is a big problem for metamagicked scorching rays (where you're firing 4-6 rays and each one gets resisted separately), but not so much of a problem for the orbs and other spells that do all their damage in one chunk (oh the horror, my maximized orb only did 80 damage instead of 90). Just some more things to think about...
Be careful with that. High CR outsiders are often immune to one, and resistant to the other. Or immune to both.
It's not a problem until late in the game, but then it's a gigantic problem for certain builds.
So far, I've got Fire, Acid, Sonic and Cold damage covered. It's quite likely that I'll give my sorcerer Arc of Lightning as a 5th level spell. (Firebrand doesn't seem worth it with sculpted Fireballs available.) I'm also varying my spell selection so that Lukas isn't wholly based on direct damage.
It is possible that the 9th level spells will be Sonic Weapon (Energy sub makes it even better), Protection From Energy and Dim Door.) And yes, I know that Sonic Weapon depends on the party involved and whether or not we can buff. It's still very handy to be able to add to an ally's damage output. I'd take Burning Sword, but I believe that that is limited to melee weapons. (Burning sword doesn't specifically state that you can use it on ranged weapons and it is Burning SWORD. Plus, it's ANOTHER fire spell.)
Resist Energy, Fly and Dim Door are just as likely candidates for level 9 as the prior 3.
Hariman
PS: Sonic Weapon is inviting partly because there's an archer at the same level as my sorcerer who gets three attacks a round at a bonus that often becomes "Don't roll a 1" whose damage output would be doubled by Sonic Weapon. (Reincarnated from elf to halfling.) Plus, it might get used more often than Resist Energy. Not to mention Protection From Energy works better with Arc of Lightning.
energy damage: Damage caused by one of five types of energy (not counting positive and negative energy): acid, cold, electricty, fire, and sonic.
I'm not 100% sure but I thought that sonic wasn't on the list of things that energy substitution affected?
You can't use energy substitution to change energy damage into sonic, but it's okay to use it to change from sonic into another type, on the rare occasion you would want to.
"I cast sonic weapon on the archer"
"Then, I cast acid-substituted sonic weapon on the archer"
Why not get both, when you can?
You always want to, with sonic weapon.
"I cast sonic weapon on the archer"
"Then, I cast acid-substituted sonic weapon on the archer"
Why not get both, when you can?
Considering that this archer does 1d6+3, that's one hell of a damage increase and the exact intent of taking Sonic Weapon.
Really, the tactic works on anyone who gets extra attacks. It's just best on an archer who fires at +15/+15/+15/+10 with Haste while doing 3d6+3 damage instead 1d6 damage.
It's not so hot on the raging barbarian types because 2d6 isn't as much of a relative increase over 1d8+22.
You always want to, with sonic weapon.
"I cast sonic weapon on the archer"
"Then, I cast acid-substituted sonic weapon on the archer"
Why not get both, when you can?
It's the same spell the damage would overlap.. the arrow would do a bonus damage equal to the better of 1d6 sonic and 1d6 acid.
So if you roll a 4 for sonic and a 6 for acid then it does 6 acid for non-resistant creatures, but 4 sonic for creatures with acid resistance 3+.
-James
It's the same spell the damage would overlap.. the arrow would do a bonus damage equal to the better of 1d6 sonic and 1d6 acid.
So if you roll a 4 for sonic and a 6 for acid then it does 6 acid for non-resistant creatures, but 4 sonic for creatures with acid resistance 3+.
-James
I'll ask my DMs and expect table variation. Even if they don't stack, using sonic weapon is a great way to increase an allies damage output. This is especially true for monks and archers, who get extra attacks each round.
It's the same spell the damage would overlap.. the arrow would do a bonus damage equal to the better of 1d6 sonic and 1d6 acid.
So if you roll a 4 for sonic and a 6 for acid then it does 6 acid for non-resistant creatures, but 4 sonic for creatures with acid resistance 3+.
-James
It is the same source but it is not the same type of damage so it does stack ..I think
It is the same source but it is not the same type of damage so it does stack ..I think
I have seen pretty split arguements.
Especially for GMS who hate the idea of overlapping extended energy immunities...
Cast 2 on one day
Cast 2 the next day
Rods of Extend Help. (cleric6)
(at CL 20 ofc)
That means you reliably always have immunity to everything but sonic.
I have seen pretty split arguements.
Especially for GMS who hate the idea of overlapping extended energy immunities...
Cast 2 on one day
Cast 2 the next day
Rods of Extend Help. (cleric6)
(at CL 20 ofc)
That means you reliably always have immunity to everything but sonic.
Umm, I've seen someone (Jenks!!!) try to stack a cold substituted fire shield and a regular fire shield so when an enemy hits they take double damage. Pretty sure it doesn't work, I know we didn't allow it.
Wes
I have seen pretty split arguements.
Especially for GMS who hate the idea of overlapping extended energy immunities...
Cast 2 on one day
Cast 2 the next day
Rods of Extend Help. (cleric6)
(at CL 20 ofc)
That means you reliably always have immunity to everything but sonic.
I can't see how this part of the stacking effects rules would allow that.
Same Effect with Differing Results
The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.
SEwDR would be things like
The key phrase in the second sentence is "becomes irrelevant": there's nothing irrelevant about immunity to fire when you get fireballed just because you also have immunity to cold -there is no conceivable way you could consider them to both be active but only apply one.
The same does not apply to my other examples.
"Same Spell" != "Same Effect"
EDIT: picked the wrong examples
You just say they are different effects -immunity to cold is not immunity to fire.
SEwDR would be things likedifferent numbers of mirror images or different amounts of False Life.Being Sickened or Nauseated by a single effect (doesn't stack with itself) or being shaken/frightened/panicked depending on whether you make a save.
The key phrase in the second sentence is "becomes irrelevant": there's nothing irrelevant about immunity to fire when you get fireballed just because you also have immunity to cold -there is no conceivable way you could consider them to both be active but only apply one.
The same does not apply to my other examples.
"Same Spell" != "Same Effect"
EDIT: picked the wrong examples
hmm. Then heroics granting a feat chain would be possible, as well as multiple energy immunity.
Thanks for clarifying that; it's not an overwrite, but an overlay.
I'll expect table variation, but my tables will vary in the seemingly correct, if more permissive, direction.
Heroics could still be ruled not to stack on the basis that the effect is "have a feat" rather than "have feat X".. but yeah you're going to get variation.
You also risk people saying "obviously you can have multiple energy resistances. obviously Heroics was never supposed to do that" -and none of it's clear enough to argue with someone who wants to make a "spirit of the rules" ruling like that (though you could appeal at a convention if you think it's worth it).
You just say they are different effects -immunity to cold is not immunity to fire.
SEwDR would be things likedifferent numbers of mirror images or different amounts of False Life.Being Sickened or Nauseated by a single effect (doesn't stack with itself) or being shaken/frightened/panicked depending on whether you make a save.
The key phrase in the second sentence is "becomes irrelevant": there's nothing irrelevant about immunity to fire when you get fireballed just because you also have immunity to cold -there is no conceivable way you could consider them to both be active but only apply one.
The same does not apply to my other examples.
"Same Spell" != "Same Effect"
EDIT: picked the wrong examples
I like these boards. Twice now I have come to argue something and someone has beat me to the punch ina well reasoned and articulate manner.
- What he said!
Iwish to add that the woriding of the spell is that is continues to function, jsut that if they have the same effect you use the better fo the two results. I would argue against heroics because it doesn't specifiy choices (as said already) and so it would not stack with itself.
Energy immunity/protection from energy explicity states several effects that work together so I don't see how that passage trumps it. They do NOT have the same effect.
Strength penalty = effect
Immunity to cold and Immunity to fire are NOT the same effect from differing sources by ANY weird stretch of imagination.
It is the same source but it is not the same type of damage so it does stack ..I think
I don't see the difference that changing one of the energy types for one casting of the spell would alter anything. You are casting sonic weapon on the same weapon twice... the effects, at best, overlap.
Fireshield is the poster child for why letting them stack is a bad thing (though flame arrow and sonic weapon come in a close second).
As to the resist energy spells (and the like) you can argue that they overlap with the better result going to the recipient. Thus unless you are dealing with something energy admixtured or otherwise dealing multiple energy types it becomes a moot point.
I could be wrong on this, but it seems balancing to impose the limitation and unbalancing not to do so.
-James
Any thread that goes on long enough will devolve into a rules debate.
See prior thread for an example.
Herman
PS: My sorcerer hasn't leveled yet.
Hariman's Theorem states:
Any thread that goes on long enough will devolve into a rules debate.
.
No it won't
;)
Fireshield is the poster child for why letting them stack is a bad thing (though flame arrow and sonic weapon come in a close second).
As to the resist energy spells (and the like) you can argue that they overlap with the better result going to the recipient. Thus unless you are dealing with something energy admixtured or otherwise dealing multiple energy types it becomes a moot point.
I could be wrong on this, but it seems balancing to impose the limitation and unbalancing not to do so.
I don't see either of those being particularly unbalanced. Maybe if they lasted 10mins/level ...and you certainly can't stop FA stacking with SW though I can see why you might think a Sorceror with both and Acid Sustitution might be a bit much when the archer/monk steps up to full attack in a combat the party had buff time for.
..but then high level casters with buff time tend to make mincemeeat(/dust) of the enemy very easily anyway.
Fireshield is going to be nice against things with lots of attacks but only if they full attack the one with the fireshield -otherwise it's not that much damage: I could use that slot for Dragonsbreath shared with my familiar to take the enemy down or an Evard's BT.
I just got access to Assay Spell Resistance and Ruin Delver's Fortune.
That might change a few things come level 9.
UPDATE:
I just got access to Assay Spell Resistance and Ruin Delver's Fortune.
That might change a few things come level 9.
It must be in a core or you all are in awesome regions but either way I am super jealous.
I must reiterate this every time I see someone got access to RDF.
It must be in a core or you all are in awesome regions but either way I am super jealous.
I must reiterate this every time I see someone got access to RDF.
Oh, I EARNED that access. I had to have Lukas howl at a vrock and two succubi (DON'T spoil it if you recognize the encounter.) to earn that. And this was at APL 6!
I think that Ruin Delver's Fortune, Fly and Resist Energy would make a good set of choices for level 9.
Wall of Ice showed it's usefulness recently, so I'll keep that and swap out Lesser Orb of Cold for Assay Spell Resistance.
I also got access to Ray of Dizziness. So I'll look at that for further down the line. Although I'll hesitate to use it without lighting off a True Strike first. (If I take it.) Ray of Dizziness' disadvantage is that it is Compulsion/Mind Affecting.
I just finished playing through Keocon yesterday and Lukas is now approaching level 10.
Ruin Delver's Fortune and Fly have turned out to be great and useful, respectively. (Immunity to poison vs cloudkill? Kickass.) Sonic Weapon is situational, but still useful at the moment.
I'm now seeking suggestions on what 5th level spells to take. Currently, I'm leaning toward Teleportation, as Lukas doesn't have many mobility spells. Other spells that were brought up were Mass Fly or Cone of Cold. Also, Arc of Lightning is a spell that I have been looking at recently.
Does anyone have any recommendations for spells that I haven't mentioned?
Right now you have no strategic movement option. Teleport handles this.
Right now you have no grapple escape for you or others. Teleport handles this
Right now you have no way to move others across the battlefield with your actions (so they're free to full attack etc). Teleport handles this
While mass fly is good, you can simulate much of the effect by pro-actively casting fly on every party member when the party is heading into trouble. At your APL there might even be enough lesser rods of extend floating around to double the duration to 20 minutes. In most combat situation, it is only essential to get a single party member flying (the best melee combatant) and it's just a bonus to get everybody else going.
Arc lightning...is really only goingto add to your capability against devils (immune fire, with SR and no lightning resistance. It's an ok spell, but not going to change your capabilities much. Empowered fireballs > arc lightning on most content.
I think you'll like teleport if you have it. If your instincts are saying you lack mobility spells, then trust your instincts and take one that is different from the mobility spells you already have.
Given a choice between teleport, arc lightning and mass fly, given your other spells and feats, teleport hands down.
Right now you have no strategic movement option. Teleport handles this.
Right now you have no grapple escape for you or others. Teleport handles this
Right now you have no way to move others across the battlefield with your actions (so they're free to full attack etc). Teleport handles this
While mass fly is good, you can simulate much of the effect by pro-actively casting fly on every party member when the party is heading into trouble. At your APL there might even be enough lesser rods of extend floating around to double the duration to 20 minutes. In most combat situation, it is only essential to get a single party member flying (the best melee combatant) and it's just a bonus to get everybody else going.
Arc lightning...is really only goingto add to your capability against devils (immune fire, with SR and no lightning resistance. It's an ok spell, but not going to change your capabilities much. Empowered fireballs > arc lightning on most content.
I think you'll like teleport if you have it. If your instincts are saying you lack mobility spells, then trust your instincts and take one that is different from the mobility spells you already have.
Well, that's an excellent case for Teleport if I ever saw one. I WAS going to take Dimension Door at level 9, but I decided that Ruin Delver's Fortune was a must have spell. Ruin Delver's Fortune might eat through my level 4 slots and my swift actions, but I've already mentioned how useful it is.
Oddly enough, I have gained access to the Twilight armor upgrade, which is a tempting thing on a mithral chain shirt because it would free up a spell slot, though the AC boost would still only be +1 over keeping Mage Armor.
Just remember mage armor isn't only for you. If you often adventure with monks or druids/shapeshifters it is a nice party buff. If you encounter a lot of incorporeals too, it can be a nice way to burn off some low level slots. Factor that in when comparing its utility to whatever you'll replace it with.
Feather fall comes to mind as a rather obvious choice. Lets you teleport the party into the air way up and have them not plunge to their death. One advantage of teleport vs dim door is you can actually take a swift/immediate action after casting it.
Oh, one of the players in my area used a "Dim Door Straight up" tactic combined with a ring of feather fall. He'd teleport several hundred feet in the air and start firing long range spells. He'd then switch to medium and close range spells as he fell further and further. It's an interesting tactic, but I doubt I'll ever use it.
I have been told by some of the other sorcerer players in my area that I must have both True Strike and Orb of Force on my sorcerer's spell list. I'm in doubt that that is a good idea, as I could get a different 4th level spell. Not to mention that the last time that I found Lesser orb of cold useful, I was facing a gargantuan creature that had a touch AC of 1. (And 600+ HP!) No point blank and precise shot = sad sorcerer.
Teleport looks like a great spell for level 10. So I think I'll take it then. I might swap out sonic weapon, as it's only 1d6 damage. Or 2d6 damage if I cast it twice and energy sub it to acid.
What I need to consider now that I've chosen level 10's spell, are spells for level 11.
I know for sure that I'm going to give my sorcerer either Resist energy or protection from energy. Undulant Innards is another possibility. Assay Spell Resistance is on the short list of additional 4th level spells to take, though it's not set in stone.
True Strike is a a nice spell, but not necessarily a must-have as "most" touch ACs are low anyway. I wouldn't bother w/ True Strike until you have the ability to quicken it.
Another 5th level spell that I don't think I saw anyone mention that should be on your short list... Wall of Force.
Also, if you have access to Assay Spell Resistance - take it. Great spell.
my 2gp...
Oh, one of the players in my area used a "Dim Door Straight up" tactic combined with a ring of feather fall.
There's slight variation on this as DDoor is a conjuration spell,
James
There's slight variation on this as DDoor is a conjuration spell,
James
What's the variation on? It says you can simply state the direction and distance that you want to go. It even includes an example of traveling upwards with it. There's also no bar against appearing in open space overhead. You simply can't use it to teleport through too much solid matter.
I don't think it will come up, but I would like to know.
What's the variation on? It says you can simply state the direction and distance that you want to go. It even includes an example of traveling upwards with it. There's also no bar against appearing in open space overhead. You simply can't use it to teleport through too much solid matter.
I don't think it will come up, but I would like to know.
Some people misinterpret: "A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it." as applying to Ddooring people with you, etc.
-James
Some people misinterpret: "A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it." as applying to Ddooring people with you, etc.
-James
Interesting. "brought into being or transported to your location" shouldn't be applicable to Dim Door. Dim Door takes people with you, it doesn't bring something into being or transport it to your location.
BUT, I can see why people would disagree.
Orb of Force is a must-have spell. You'll regret not taking it the next time you fight against incorporeals.
True Strike is a a nice spell, but not necessarily a must-have as "most" touch ACs are low anyway. I wouldn't bother w/ True Strike until you have the ability to quicken it.
At level 10+, orb of force is 35 hitpoints. You will be fighting greater shadows and dread wraiths, both of whom take many orbs to kill and the latter are hard to hit with orbs at all. As long as you have some magical means of doing damage vs most targets, it doesn't have to be orb of force. The primary advantage of that spell is it works on most anything.
But it doesn't do all that much damage. It'll help out some other primary damage dealer but won't win a fight on its own without your party kinda sucking, you beeing free to spend many rounds casting it anyway and you burning a good chunk of your high tier spell slots.
He's got some direct damage already. It's enough. Just to kinda show that versitile spells are useful, I think you are more likely to do the decisive action in an incoporeal fight with teleport (moving people in danger of death/spawning out of harms way with readied actions, or people with ghost-touch weapons IN reach) than with orb of force.
With respect to truestrike, generally guided shot is the better sorcerer spell. Truestrike on a scroll does everything it does in your head barring somehow quickening it. Guided shot starts out swift action and deals with cover/concealment penalities. By level 10, you can usually hit somebody who isn't in cover/concealment pretty reliably.
With respect to truestrike, generally guided shot is the better sorcerer spell. Truestrike on a scroll does everything it does in your head barring somehow quickening it.
While I agree in general, true strike on a scroll also requires you to get it into hand. An infinite scrollcase can do this as part of a move, but otherwise it does eat up some actions.
-James
With respect to truestrike, generally guided shot is the better sorcerer spell. Truestrike on a scroll does everything it does in your head barring somehow quickening it. Guided shot starts out swift action and deals with cover/concealment penalities. By level 10, you can usually hit somebody who isn't in cover/concealment pretty reliably.
I can't and I've never been able to
I can't and I've never been able to
Sounds like you have my level of luck for ranged touch attacks. Like I said before. The last time I used Lesser Orb of Cold Effectively, I was aiming it at a touch AC 1 gargantuan creature. Heck, I've mentioned more than once that I had a character who consistently missed ranged touch attacks.
I'm more likely to take something like blast of force so I can sculpt it (Yes, I understand the limitations of sculpted blast of force.) and hit multiple targets.
Or I could take Transdimensional Spell or the spell greater blink to hit incorporeals.
Sounds like you have my level of luck for ranged touch attacks. Like I said before. The last time I used Lesser Orb of Cold Effectively, I was aiming it at a touch AC 1 gargantuan creature. Heck, I've mentioned more than once that I had a character who consistently missed ranged touch attacks.
I had scorching ray through the first 3 parts of red hand of doom and I hit with it once.
I intend to just start quickening true strike when I hit 12 for all my touch attack needs.
Or I could take Transdimensional Spell or the spell greater blink to hit incorporeals.
Just a note on the greater blink - it makes you ethereal half the time, not incorporeal. The only incorporeals that are also on the ethereal plane are ghosts.
I'm more likely to take something like blast of force so I can sculpt it (Yes, I understand the limitations of sculpted blast of force.) and hit multiple targets.
Sorry, is that a typo? Blast of force really can't be sculpted. (Did you mean flame?)
Just a note on the greater blink - it makes you ethereal half the time, not incorporeal. The only incorporeals that are also on the ethereal plane are ghosts.
The other benefits are there, (50% miss chance, half damage from area spells, walking through walls, etc.) And having extra against ghosts is good.
Blast of Farce, I mean force, is a typo. I could SWEAR that there was a 3rd (or maybe 4th) level spell that did a 30 foot cone of force damage.
Blast of Flame is an option, though it suffers from being redundant because I already have fireball. Actually, Slow has been recommended, for it's anti haste capability and encounter nerfing potential.
Actually, Slow has been recommended, for it's anti haste capability and encounter nerfing potential.
If something is going to fail it's will save against a 3rd level spell you should be able to own them more than slowing them. It's true that it can effect more things than, say, a confusion spell and the targeting is better.. but unless your DCs are truely stellar it's not the best pick.
Now a scroll of it to cast upon hasted bad guys is another thing entirely.
-James
If something is going to fail it's will save against a 3rd level spell you should be able to own them more than slowing them. It's true that it can effect more things than, say, a confusion spell and the targeting is better.. but unless your DCs are truely stellar it's not the best pick.
Now a scroll of it to cast upon hasted bad guys is another thing entirely.
-James
Lukas only has a 19 charisma right now. (Level 9) Starting out with a 15 charisma hurt his DCs a little bit.
I'll keep having an "Anti enemy haste" scroll in mind, though.
Lukas only has a 19 charisma right now. (Level 9) Starting out with a 15 charisma hurt his DCs a little bit.
I'll keep having an "Anti enemy haste" scroll in mind, though.
There are a few countering spells like that out there.. having them on scrolls is a decent option. A scroll of calm emotions (for Bards, Clerics, or those with decent UMD) is fun against barbarians.. and a stylish way to kill them!
-James
There are a few countering spells like that out there.. having them on scrolls is a decent option. A scroll of calm emotions (for Bards, Clerics, or those with decent UMD) is fun against barbarians.. and a stylish way to kill them!
-James
Oddly enough, I already had a scroll of slow in Lukas' pouch.
Also, Lukas has made it to 10th level, so he now has teleport. The greatest thing that he lacks now is a way to strike at enemies with ultra good saves and a way to beat high SR.
Assay Spell Resistance can shut down high SR, but that leaves me looking for a good anti monk spell for when Lukas hits level 11.
Oddly enough, I already had a scroll of slow in Lukas' pouch.
Also, Lukas has made it to 10th level, so he now has teleport. The greatest thing that he lacks now is a way to strike at enemies with ultra good saves and a way to beat high SR.
Assay Spell Resistance can shut down high SR, but that leaves me looking for a good anti monk spell for when Lukas hits level 11.
Spellwarped frost breath is pretty amazing, if it works with your build.
Ray of Dizziness is pretty buff. Ray of Clumsiness is pretty bad for monks, too.
RoC is also a game breaker for rogues... makes your reflex save spells measurably better, as well.
Yeah, it takes an action, yeah, you need access... yeah, it's really /that good/. A nosave AC debuff in a first level slot is pretty awesome.
Spellwarped frost breath is pretty amazing, if it works with your build.
Ray of Dizziness is pretty buff. Ray of Clumsiness is pretty bad for monks, too.
RoC is also a game breaker for rogues... makes your reflex save spells measurably better, as well.
Yeah, it takes an action, yeah, you need access... yeah, it's really /that good/. A nosave AC debuff in a first level slot is pretty awesome.
I'm actually pretty sure that I have access to Ray of Dizziness AND Ray of Clumsiness. Ray of Clumsiness I'd have to swap out a spell, and with Grease, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Lesser Orb of Cold and Nerveskitter, the only spell I can see to swap out is the Lesser Orb of Cold. (Which I have barely used.) Ray of Dizziness would have to wait a bit.
The greatest problem that I have is that they are TOUCH ATTACKS. I have notoriously bad luck with touch attacks. (And currently only +7 to hit, as all I've got is 14 dex and 5 BAB.) Maybe I could carry a few extra scrolls of Cat's Grace around.
Spellwarp Sniper is out of the question. This character is already sorcerer8/fatespinner2 and he WON'T take a caster level hit. And yes, I do know how kick ass spellwarped frost breath is.
Hmm. Resist Energy, Ray of Dizziness, Assay Spell Resistance and...
The fifth level slot is still giving me trouble. Telekinesis is a thought, so is Greater Blink. Arc of Lightning and Cone of Cold are other ideas, but are slightly eclipsed by empowered fireballs. Vitriolic Sphere overlaps too much with Energy Sub Acid and damage over time on a failed save is rather sad to me.
Any recommendations/opinions for a 5th level spell known?
You get a L2, L3, L4, L5 spell.
The rather obvious answer for SR=no, non-touch-spell options are blast wave and arc of lightning, with the latter being considered superior (easier to target, scales to 15d6). Vitriolic sphere isn't much good compared to either of them. The advantage of blast of flame is you can empower it at level 12, and you're not that likely to reach level 14 when you can do the same to arc lightning. Plus it is a lower level slot.
Less obvious options include telekenesis (hit rolls, but there are a lot of them and they tend to even out bad luck) for damage, and spells like solid fog, evards tentacles and wall of force to control the things you cant kill until those who can kill them get around to it.
I find solid fog in particular to be an amazing spell...just good enough to steal actions from the enemy but not SO good at it that it slows the fight down..they come out one at a time to get butchered (and if the party is killing to slow, you just drop another one). Unlike many other BC spells, this one works just fine on fliers and it works BETTER on really large critters.
It is helpful if you have a way to remove the solid fog on demand, or portions of it. Gust of wind or dispel magic are good in that role.
If it was me, with the problems you're describing, I'd take solid fog and arc lightning over most other alternatives. I'm not that fond of ray debuffs, they're slow to get going and until they absolutely shut down an enemy, they only have a marginal impact on ow hard they hit back. By contrast solid fog can take several enemies or one big enemy completely out of the fight for a round or three, it frontloads the debuff instead of backloading it. Sure, eventually you have to fight the bad guy, but at a time the party is ready for it.
Well, lets see if we can approach both of your problems.
You get a L2, L3, L4, L5 spell.
The rather obvious answer for SR=no, non-touch-spell options are blast wave and arc of lightning, with the latter being considered superior (easier to target, scales to 15d6). Vitriolic sphere isn't much good compared to either of them. The advantage of blast of flame is you can empower it at level 12, and you're not that likely to reach level 14 when you can do the same to arc lightning. Plus it is a lower level slot.
Less obvious options include telekenesis (hit rolls, but there are a lot of them and they tend to even out bad luck) for damage, and spells like solid fog, evards tentacles and wall of force to control the things you cant kill until those who can kill them get around to it.
I find solid fog in particular to be an amazing spell...just good enough to steal actions from the enemy but not SO good at it that it slows the fight down..they come out one at a time to get butchered (and if the party is killing to slow, you just drop another one). Unlike many other BC spells, this one works just fine on fliers and it works BETTER on really large critters.
It is helpful if you have a way to remove the solid fog on demand, or portions of it. Gust of wind or dispel magic are good in that role.
If it was me, with the problems you're describing, I'd take solid fog and arc lightning over most other alternatives. I'm not that fond of ray debuffs, they're slow to get going and until they absolutely shut down an enemy, they only have a marginal impact on ow hard they hit back. By contrast solid fog can take several enemies or one big enemy completely out of the fight for a round or three, it frontloads the debuff instead of backloading it. Sure, eventually you have to fight the bad guy, but at a time the party is ready for it.
Hmmm. One problem with your suggestions is that it places a high demand on my character's 4th level spells known. (But Assay Spell Resistance does the same thing for 4th level slots.) Assay Spell Resistance and Blast of Flame would be redundant, as both tackle the spell resistance problem. Assay SR and Solid Fog would work well together, if I swapped out Wall of Ice for Solid Fog. All I would lose is the damage potential of Wall of Ice.
Solid Fog actually looks like it's better than wall of ice, simply because it's conjuration and has no save. I really could have used it in a recent mod. It would have saved a LOT of trouble and probably one character's life.
Telekinesis and Arc of Lightning are good options. The trick would be having a weapon handy for Telekinesis. Although the combat options provided by Telekinesis are quite good.
I do have Infernal Sorcerer Howl to take care of SR, but it's not viable against some enemies. (Ropers and Slaad come to mind.)