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Natural Bond Question

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
kkbkbl
Mar 20, 2008 1:25:03 Would this work?

5Druid 3Beastmaster(or 1 beastmaster+ anything that gives animal companion progression, suggestions plz!)+ Natural Bond.

Would it all stack to give a whooping 14 level druid companion?
Anyway to make them stack?
#2
Jay_Ibero_911
Mar 20, 2008 1:54:50
Would this work?

5Druid 3Beastmaster(or 1 beastmaster+ anything that gives animal companion progression, suggestions plz!)+ Natural Bond.

Would it all stack to give a whooping 14 level druid companion?
Anyway to make them stack?

Except Natural Bond doesn't let you increase effective druid level beyond your character level, only lets you make up for non-druid levels.
#3
timlagor
Mar 20, 2008 9:51:15 No -not if I understand what you are asking correctly.

You can only use Natural Bond to make up for levels that didn't grant Animal Companion Progression.

You can then add the Beastmaster bonus on top (potentially taking you over your character level) but if you have no levels that don't advance your AC then you will gain no bonus from Natural Bond.
[IIRC Natural Bond does work for straight Rangers who only get half-progression but will never advance the AC beyond your character level]
#4
umiskatonic
Mar 20, 2008 15:53:05 Natural Bond would also free you up to take a few levels of a full caster PrC that does not advance animal companion. (Elemental Savant, for example)

But I think Druid level +3 is the best you'll ever do, and that's through beastmaster.
#5
rtrnofdmax
Mar 21, 2008 9:49:05 Enough people have said it, but I agree too. I think the best use of Natural Bond is to make up for the 3 levels of wizard you have to take for Arcane Heirophant. Add in a level of beastmaster and your AC is full of yummy goodness.
#6
koushiro
Mar 30, 2008 11:40:59 Well Natural Bond would help the second or third animal companion you get if you continued to go into beast master, wouldn't it?
#7
timlagor
Mar 30, 2008 16:52:31
Well Natural Bond would help the second or third animal companion you get if you continued to go into beast master, wouldn't it?

Nope ...at least I don't think so and would try to read it against that interpretation as GM because that is not waht the Feat was intended for.
#8
magebeast
Mar 30, 2008 21:38:48
Nope ...at least I don't think so and would try to read it against that interpretation as GM because that is not waht the Feat was intended for.

Given that the feat and the class came in the same book, I find that interpretation suspect.
#9
swiftbrook
Mar 31, 2008 12:17:14
Nope ...at least I don't think so and would try to read it against that interpretation as GM because that is not waht the Feat was intended for.

I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe a Beastmaster's second animal companion is at Beastmaster level -3. Note that there is no adjustement in there for other Druid equivalent levels, just Beastmaster -3. So a Druid 4/Beastmaster 4 's second animal companion would be like a Druid 1's animal companion.

In this case, I see no problem with using Natural Bond on the second animal companion. Treating it like a 4th level Druid's companion.

I'll edit this latter when I look at my book.

-Swiftbrook
#10
twg_prometheus
Mar 31, 2008 19:27:44 Pending a check of the rules, I'd be inclined to allow a Beastmaster to apply Natural Bond to their second animal companion as well. (But only to one of the animal companions.)

Of course, the second animal companion will still be horribly, unredeemably awful, so.... ??

Beastmaster could be the poster child for classes that should never be more than dipped.
#11
swiftbrook
Apr 01, 2008 16:36:51 Rules checked.

The Extra Animal Companion (Ex) ability that the Beastmaster gains at 4th level states "Other class levels that offer an animal companion don't stack for the purpose of determining the power of a beastmaster's additional animal companions, nor do they allow her to choose additional annimal companions from the alternative lists.".

I'd still think you can apply the Natural Bond feat to the second animal companion.

-Swiftbrook
#12
timlagor
Apr 01, 2008 19:36:16 Ok well that certainly makes it pretty weak.. but it looks like Natural Bond might not apply at all anyway since there is no 'Druid level' here....?

[I haven't checked any of the rules because I don't care that much ;)]
#13
twg_prometheus
Apr 03, 2008 16:29:45 Just don't get the second animal companion. Two levels in Beastmaster at most if you want to snag Alertness (works well with certain Rewards cards) and then bail out.

Yes, Beastmaster animal companions beyond the first are that bad, whether or not Natural Bond would apply. Any other class or PrC that will continue progressing your animal companion works spiffy after you leave Beastmaster.

Since you started as a Druid, returning to that class is probably your best bet due to awesome animal companion spell buffs. Druid 14/Beastmaster 1 and Druid 13/Beastmaster 2 are both awesome.
#14
katrick
Apr 12, 2008 12:48:47 At 5th Druid and 10th beastmaster it will simply come down to the fact that you get 7-12 attacks per round (even though some of them may be crap).
Add Animal Growth from the partys wizard, Haste, some rapid summons, and you are literally filling the entire map with critters. Which apart from being targets and soaking Aoo's puts pressure on the DM meaning they are more likely to make a mistake in tactics. All in all more numbers means better outcomes for the good guys.
Numbers is exactly why LG mods are so easy. (its almost always 6 to 1)
katrick
P.S. Natural bond stacks with each animal, and you can choose animals from the higher level options. So at 5/10 you can have a T-rex and aDire Lion and a Rhinoceros and a Bison, and yourself ( and your beastmaster cohort and her animal companions and summons etc)
#15
swiftbrook
Apr 12, 2008 17:54:16
P.S. Natural bond stacks with each animal, and you can choose animals from the higher level options. So at 5/10 you can have a T-rex and aDire Lion and a Rhinoceros and a Bison, and yourself ( and your beastmaster cohort and her animal companions and summons etc)

Page 111: Natural Bond
If a character has multiple animal companions, the bonus granted by this feat applies to one of them.

Sorry, it only applies to one.

-Swiftbrook
#16
magebeast
Apr 12, 2008 17:56:59
P.S. Natural bond stacks with each animal, and you can choose animals from the higher level options. So at 5/10 you can have a T-rex and aDire Lion and a Rhinoceros and a Bison, and yourself ( and your beastmaster cohort and her animal companions and summons etc)

It does not, there is a circle ruling, faq, or dispel confusion to that effect. I forget which. In any case, it only works on one animal companion in LG.
#17
hariman
Apr 12, 2008 20:30:39
At 5th Druid and 10th beastmaster it will simply come down to the fact that you get 7-12 attacks per round (even though some of them may be crap).
Add Animal Growth from the partys wizard, Haste, some rapid summons, and you are literally filling the entire map with critters. Which apart from being targets and soaking Aoo's puts pressure on the DM meaning they are more likely to make a mistake in tactics. All in all more numbers means better outcomes for the good guys.
Numbers is exactly why LG mods are so easy. (its almost always 6 to 1)
katrick

Or the elemental simply uses Great Cleave and cuts down your mook animal companions in one or two rounds.

Considering the effectiveness of higher level summons (even a level late from the one level dip into beastmaster) a character is much better of taking just one level in beastmaster and returning to druid for the rest of his progression.

A ranger is a different matter. Rangers can probably get more out of animal companions and full BAB than a druid. Even if it is just for extra mounts to let the whole party ride.
#18
katrick
Apr 18, 2008 15:58:14 Mwhw fiejas they didn't post no errata to me, i paid $57 for that book for 1 useless feat, and 10 levels of no-one sayin gyp
guess i'll put it with my 2nd ed stuff.

Can anyone explain why they can send me 14 different fireball templates, three different coloured stripey tigers yet when i buy their now defunct book they can't even email me the bit that makes it defunct.
a very diassapointed katrick
#19
KarmaInferno
Apr 22, 2008 16:44:10 How, exactly, are they supposed to know what you own?

They have all the errata in a central place. Bookmark this page:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a

-karma
#20
lupo
Apr 28, 2008 16:36:15
Would this work?

5Druid 3Beastmaster(or 1 beastmaster+ anything that gives animal companion progression, suggestions plz!)+ Natural Bond.

Would it all stack to give a whooping 14 level druid companion?
Anyway to make them stack?

the highest possible animal companion is a badger or wolverine for a gnome ranger with the alternative gnome ranger level 4 (RS) [effective animal companion character level +1], druid, beastmaster [effective animal companion level +3] and further druid levels till retirement [or beastmaster, but what does beastmasater levels beyond the first or second do?].

whether natural bond would increase this animal companion some additional two steps [for the ranger's halved progression] is debatable and i wouldn't count on it.

so the total is an animal companion 4 [6] steps further up than normal, given that the druidic spellpower is down 5 levels from a pure druid is a hefty price for a super badger or wolverine.

ciao

martin m.
#21
timlagor
Apr 28, 2008 18:30:25 NBond would work for those Ranger levels but just being restricted to Badger or Wolverine is a pretty hefty cost too I would think.
#22
magebeast
Apr 28, 2008 22:01:44
NBond would work for those Ranger levels but just being restricted to Badger or Wolverine is a pretty hefty cost too I would think.

Well it's a Badger or Wolering with +12 natural armor, +6 strength and dex as well as multiattack and improved evasion.

15d8+63 (138 hp - if I calculated correctly)
init +5
movement: 30 ft. (6 squares), burrow 10 ft., climb 10 ft.
Armor Class: 29 (+5 Dex, +14 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 26
Base Attack/Grapple: +11/+16
Attack: Claw +16 melee (1d4+5)
Full Attack: 2 claws +16 melee (1d4+5) and bite +14 melee (1d6+3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Rage
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +13, Ref +14, Will +6
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 21, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
Feats: Alertness, Toughness, Track Plus three more for HD

When raging you go up to 168 HP and +18 (1d4+7). Yeah, I did a lot of work to come up with not very impressive.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 kkbkbl Mar 20, 2008 1:25:03	Would this work? 5Druid 3Beastmaster(or 1 beastmaster+ anything that gives animal companion progression, suggestions plz!)+ Natural Bond. Would it all stack to give a whooping 14 level druid companion? Anyway to make them stack?
#2 Jay_Ibero_911 Mar 20, 2008 1:54:50	Would this work? 5Druid 3Beastmaster(or 1 beastmaster+ anything that gives animal companion progression, suggestions plz!)+ Natural Bond. Would it all stack to give a whooping 14 level druid companion? Anyway to make them stack? Except Natural Bond doesn't let you increase effective druid level beyond your character level, only lets you make up for non-druid levels.
#3 timlagor Mar 20, 2008 9:51:15	No -not if I understand what you are asking correctly. You can only use Natural Bond to make up for levels that didn't grant Animal Companion Progression. You can then add the Beastmaster bonus on top (potentially taking you over your character level) but if you have no levels that don't advance your AC then you will gain no bonus from Natural Bond. [IIRC Natural Bond does work for straight Rangers who only get half-progression but will never advance the AC beyond your character level]
#4 umiskatonic Mar 20, 2008 15:53:05	Natural Bond would also free you up to take a few levels of a full caster PrC that does not advance animal companion. (Elemental Savant, for example) But I think Druid level +3 is the best you'll ever do, and that's through beastmaster.
#5 rtrnofdmax Mar 21, 2008 9:49:05	Enough people have said it, but I agree too. I think the best use of Natural Bond is to make up for the 3 levels of wizard you have to take for Arcane Heirophant. Add in a level of beastmaster and your AC is full of yummy goodness.
#6 koushiro Mar 30, 2008 11:40:59	Well Natural Bond would help the second or third animal companion you get if you continued to go into beast master, wouldn't it?
#7 timlagor Mar 30, 2008 16:52:31	Well Natural Bond would help the second or third animal companion you get if you continued to go into beast master, wouldn't it? Nope ...at least I don't think so and would try to read it against that interpretation as GM because that is not waht the Feat was intended for.
#8 magebeast Mar 30, 2008 21:38:48	Nope ...at least I don't think so and would try to read it against that interpretation as GM because that is not waht the Feat was intended for. Given that the feat and the class came in the same book, I find that interpretation suspect.
#9 swiftbrook Mar 31, 2008 12:17:14	Nope ...at least I don't think so and would try to read it against that interpretation as GM because that is not waht the Feat was intended for. I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe a Beastmaster's second animal companion is at Beastmaster level -3. Note that there is no adjustement in there for other Druid equivalent levels, just Beastmaster -3. So a Druid 4/Beastmaster 4 's second animal companion would be like a Druid 1's animal companion. In this case, I see no problem with using Natural Bond on the second animal companion. Treating it like a 4th level Druid's companion. I'll edit this latter when I look at my book. -Swiftbrook
#10 twg_prometheus Mar 31, 2008 19:27:44	Pending a check of the rules, I'd be inclined to allow a Beastmaster to apply Natural Bond to their second animal companion as well. (But only to one of the animal companions.) Of course, the second animal companion will still be horribly, unredeemably awful, so.... ?? Beastmaster could be the poster child for classes that should never be more than dipped.
#11 swiftbrook Apr 01, 2008 16:36:51	Rules checked. The Extra Animal Companion (Ex) ability that the Beastmaster gains at 4th level states "Other class levels that offer an animal companion don't stack for the purpose of determining the power of a beastmaster's additional animal companions, nor do they allow her to choose additional annimal companions from the alternative lists.". I'd still think you can apply the Natural Bond feat to the second animal companion. -Swiftbrook
#12 timlagor Apr 01, 2008 19:36:16	Ok well that certainly makes it pretty weak.. but it looks like Natural Bond might not apply at all anyway since there is no 'Druid level' here....? [I haven't checked any of the rules because I don't care that much ;)]
#13 twg_prometheus Apr 03, 2008 16:29:45	Just don't get the second animal companion. Two levels in Beastmaster at most if you want to snag Alertness (works well with certain Rewards cards) and then bail out. Yes, Beastmaster animal companions beyond the first are that bad, whether or not Natural Bond would apply. Any other class or PrC that will continue progressing your animal companion works spiffy after you leave Beastmaster. Since you started as a Druid, returning to that class is probably your best bet due to awesome animal companion spell buffs. Druid 14/Beastmaster 1 and Druid 13/Beastmaster 2 are both awesome.
#14 katrick Apr 12, 2008 12:48:47	At 5th Druid and 10th beastmaster it will simply come down to the fact that you get 7-12 attacks per round (even though some of them may be crap). Add Animal Growth from the partys wizard, Haste, some rapid summons, and you are literally filling the entire map with critters. Which apart from being targets and soaking Aoo's puts pressure on the DM meaning they are more likely to make a mistake in tactics. All in all more numbers means better outcomes for the good guys. Numbers is exactly why LG mods are so easy. (its almost always 6 to 1) katrick P.S. Natural bond stacks with each animal, and you can choose animals from the higher level options. So at 5/10 you can have a T-rex and aDire Lion and a Rhinoceros and a Bison, and yourself ( and your beastmaster cohort and her animal companions and summons etc)
#15 swiftbrook Apr 12, 2008 17:54:16	P.S. Natural bond stacks with each animal, and you can choose animals from the higher level options. So at 5/10 you can have a T-rex and aDire Lion and a Rhinoceros and a Bison, and yourself ( and your beastmaster cohort and her animal companions and summons etc) Page 111: Natural Bond If a character has multiple animal companions, the bonus granted by this feat applies to one of them. Sorry, it only applies to one. -Swiftbrook
#16 magebeast Apr 12, 2008 17:56:59	P.S. Natural bond stacks with each animal, and you can choose animals from the higher level options. So at 5/10 you can have a T-rex and aDire Lion and a Rhinoceros and a Bison, and yourself ( and your beastmaster cohort and her animal companions and summons etc) It does not, there is a circle ruling, faq, or dispel confusion to that effect. I forget which. In any case, it only works on one animal companion in LG.
#17 hariman Apr 12, 2008 20:30:39	At 5th Druid and 10th beastmaster it will simply come down to the fact that you get 7-12 attacks per round (even though some of them may be crap). Add Animal Growth from the partys wizard, Haste, some rapid summons, and you are literally filling the entire map with critters. Which apart from being targets and soaking Aoo's puts pressure on the DM meaning they are more likely to make a mistake in tactics. All in all more numbers means better outcomes for the good guys. Numbers is exactly why LG mods are so easy. (its almost always 6 to 1) katrick Or the elemental simply uses Great Cleave and cuts down your mook animal companions in one or two rounds. Considering the effectiveness of higher level summons (even a level late from the one level dip into beastmaster) a character is much better of taking just one level in beastmaster and returning to druid for the rest of his progression. A ranger is a different matter. Rangers can probably get more out of animal companions and full BAB than a druid. Even if it is just for extra mounts to let the whole party ride.
#18 katrick Apr 18, 2008 15:58:14	Mwhw fiejas they didn't post no errata to me, i paid $57 for that book for 1 useless feat, and 10 levels of no-one sayin gyp guess i'll put it with my 2nd ed stuff. Can anyone explain why they can send me 14 different fireball templates, three different coloured stripey tigers yet when i buy their now defunct book they can't even email me the bit that makes it defunct. a very diassapointed katrick
#19 KarmaInferno Apr 22, 2008 16:44:10	How, exactly, are they supposed to know what you own? They have all the errata in a central place. Bookmark this page: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a -karma
#20 lupo Apr 28, 2008 16:36:15	Would this work? 5Druid 3Beastmaster(or 1 beastmaster+ anything that gives animal companion progression, suggestions plz!)+ Natural Bond. Would it all stack to give a whooping 14 level druid companion? Anyway to make them stack? the highest possible animal companion is a badger or wolverine for a gnome ranger with the alternative gnome ranger level 4 (RS) [effective animal companion character level +1], druid, beastmaster [effective animal companion level +3] and further druid levels till retirement [or beastmaster, but what does beastmasater levels beyond the first or second do?]. whether natural bond would increase this animal companion some additional two steps [for the ranger's halved progression] is debatable and i wouldn't count on it. so the total is an animal companion 4 [6] steps further up than normal, given that the druidic spellpower is down 5 levels from a pure druid is a hefty price for a super badger or wolverine. ciao martin m.
#21 timlagor Apr 28, 2008 18:30:25	NBond would work for those Ranger levels but just being restricted to Badger or Wolverine is a pretty hefty cost too I would think.
#22 magebeast Apr 28, 2008 22:01:44	NBond would work for those Ranger levels but just being restricted to Badger or Wolverine is a pretty hefty cost too I would think. Well it's a Badger or Wolering with +12 natural armor, +6 strength and dex as well as multiattack and improved evasion. 15d8+63 (138 hp - if I calculated correctly) init +5 movement: 30 ft. (6 squares), burrow 10 ft., climb 10 ft. Armor Class: 29 (+5 Dex, +14 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 26 Base Attack/Grapple: +11/+16 Attack: Claw +16 melee (1d4+5) Full Attack: 2 claws +16 melee (1d4+5) and bite +14 melee (1d6+3) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Rage Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent Saves: Fort +13, Ref +14, Will +6 Abilities: Str 20, Dex 21, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10 Feats: Alertness, Toughness, Track Plus three more for HD When raging you go up to 168 HP and +18 (1d4+7). Yeah, I did a lot of work to come up with not very impressive.