Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 scruloose Apr 16, 2008 12:52:35	I have never tried this concept before as a PC, and wanted to get some feedback before implementation. In addition, I am new to Living Greyhawk and thought some expert advice might be in order. I am stating a new character and am looking at playing a roguish battlefield controller (as compared to a more standard chain tripper tank). Builds I am thinking of using run along the lines of: Human Rogue 1/Fighter 1/Rogue 2-7/Exotic Weapon Master 1 or Human Rogue 1/Fighter 1/Rogue 2-3/Fighter 2/Rogue 4/Ranger 1/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Rogue 5 The 1st build gets more skill points and sneak attack, but slows progression into the prestige class by one and gets fewer feats (including track) Both builds will start with Combat Expertise and Combat Reflexes at 1st, Improved Trip at 2nd, and Exotic Weapon Proficiency at 3rd. The feedback I am looking for is: 1) Is the concept sound? Chain Trippers work well for tanks, but will it work acceptably for a rogue. The loss of average hp/AC might be a harsher hit than I think, but battlefield control seems like it might mitigate this loss. Similarly trips do not need the to hit of a front-liner as much, I think. 2) Any suggestions for improvement of the base build, feat acquisition after 3rd, or prestige classes? Which build should I take, or is there a better one out there? 3) What skills should the character take? I am thinking of taking the traditional thief skills Search, Disable, Open Lock with secondaries of acrobatics (tumble, balance) and face (diplomacy, sense motive, gather info, a little bluff). 3a) I am note sure if Use Magic Device is worth taking since I do not foresee getting to upper levels by conversion to 4th. What is the general opinion? 3b) I am also not sure if a craft/profession is worth taking for in-between games. The core Living Greyhawk rules do not match the regional rules. The latter lists tumble as a way to make money. I am not sure how necessary making money between adventures is. 3c) Are skills like gather info and diplomacy worth taking in the typical mod? 3d) How essential is it for a rogue to take the traditional 3 skills? 4) How easy is it to unlock new game options? For example, is it reasonable to assume that mithril will be available at 4th (or later)? What about the class substitution feature, disrupting attack, from the Complete Scoundrel? What about skill tricks? Thanks for any advice.
#2 umiskatonic Apr 16, 2008 14:58:45	Ok, there's a lot to say here.... a) The MOST important thing you can do with this character is to get the stats right. If you don't put enough into strength and con, you'll never be happy with this character. I'd start with 14 str, 14 dex, 14 con, and see how you like it. Adjust from there. b) If the -concept- is roguish battlefield controller, then who cares about tracking? Woodsy hunter types need tracking. If you're worried, buy a dog. c) Take the second fighter level. It's really that good. d) Yes, you're a tripper, but with a spiked chain, you're also an AO taker, a disarmer, and a reach fighter. Don't forget that. In a five foot hallway, you'll be number two, and you won't need AC or hit points, just a guy to stand behind. e) mithril is fairly common, adamantine rolls around eventually for most. I've never seen skill trick access. f) You will NOT, NOT, NOT have enough skill points for this character. Furthermore, you can't afford the INT for more. So with that in mind.... g) Make money by adventuring. The concept is roguish chain-fighter. Forget craft or profession, you're not a scribe or tailor. h) Drop the face skills. Yes, those can be useful, but let the high-charisma types pull their weight. Anyone can put ranks in diplomacy. i) But only rogues can find traps. Everyone will expect you do be able to search and disable as well as a straight rogue of your level. Don't miss those skills. Open lock is good at first level, make sure you can take 20 and get at least a 25. After that, we usually just buy a scroll of knock and hand it to the wizard, or just pound it open. j) The mobility skills are a good choice for this type of character. Balance and jump will go the farthest in LG, and they all have good synergy. Possibilities include thief-acrobat prestige class, or swashbuckler base class. k) the swashbuckler/rogue feat, that helps you multiclass, might be something to look at for this build. Can't think of the name, sorry.
#3 scruloose Apr 16, 2008 15:45:27	Thanks for the quick response: Ok, there's a lot to say here.... a) The MOST important thing you can do with this character is to get the stats right. If you don't put enough into strength and con, you'll never be happy with this character. I'd start with 14 str, 14 dex, 14 con, and see how you like it. Adjust from there. Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 10 b) If the -concept- is roguish battlefield controller, then who cares about tracking? Woodsy hunter types need tracking. If you're worried, buy a dog. I will keep in mind the dog. I am just so used to no one being able to track in a party. However, I will keep in mind that I am not a tracker. c) Take the second fighter level. It's really that good. What feat do you recomend? I was thinking hold the line or power attack. d) Yes, you're a tripper, but with a spiked chain, you're also an AO taker, a disarmer, and a reach fighter. Don't forget that. In a five foot hallway, you'll be number two, and you won't need AC or hit points, just a guy to stand behind. That's basicaly what I was thinking. I am also considering using the dwarven warpike. It can be set vs. charge, does more damage, has a better crit, but cannot disarm and relies on armor spikes for close range threat. Of course, part of my reasoning is that so many people use the spiked chain. e) mithril is fairly common, adamantine rolls around eventually for most. I've never seen skill trick access. Thanks. What about the alternative class abilities? f) You will NOT, NOT, NOT have enough skill points for this character. Furthermore, you can't afford the INT for more. So with that in mind.... g) Make money by adventuring. The concept is roguish chain-fighter. Forget craft or profession, you're not a scribe or tailor. h) Drop the face skills. Yes, those can be useful, but let the high-charisma types pull their weight. Anyone can put ranks in diplomacy. i) But only rogues can find traps. Everyone will expect you do be able to search and disable as well as a straight rogue of your level. Don't miss those skills. Open lock is good at first level, make sure you can take 20 and get at least a 25. After that, we usually just buy a scroll of knock and hand it to the wizard, or just pound it open. j) The mobility skills are a good choice for this type of character. Balance and jump will go the farthest in LG, and they all have good synergy. Possibilities include thief-acrobat prestige class, or swashbuckler base class. g) Thanks, I was wondering if a prodessional/craft skill was required based on the way the rules presented it. h) The character does get 8-10 maxed out skills (14 int to meet the 13 prerequisite for expertise + 1 for human + 2 or 8 points per level). I can drop gather info easily enough and keep sense motive and bluff at 5 ranks each, but I prefer not to assume there will be a face in the party. Does sense motive used to detect combat ability get used often? i) I will keep search and disable maxed but drop open locks to just 6 ranks (+2 Dex +2 masterwork allows a take 20 of 30). Thanks j) Is jump good enough to keep maxed out or is 5 ranks good enough? I have considered both thief acrobat and swashbuckler. Daring Outlaw (the name of the feat) will keep the sneak attack from degrading, but the character will lose another 8-12 skill points. I am not sure if that and a feat is worth the benifits. I will consider thief-acrobat, especially since skill tricks seem hard to get.
#4 umiskatonic Apr 16, 2008 16:12:41	a) Overall, stats look good. But, that's a lot of wisdom and charisma. Would you be better off with a 16 somewhere? b) So no one can track. Why is it -your- responsibility? Leave that for druids and rangers. c) Hold the line is best if you're out front, and therefore likely to get charged. Power attack is best if you're absolutely sure to hit. I'd pass on both, and make sure to have X(spiked chain), combat reflexes, imp. trip, imp. disarm. You'll probably need to pick up combat expertise along the way. That's a nice wide range of useful combat options. d) I'm seeing alternative class abilities now, but you can't count on getting access. You may get access to options you don't need, like elven wizard substitution levels... e) I've been playing LG for seven years, and I've never seen that use of sense motive get used. f) Looks like 11 skill points for rogue levels, and 5 for fighter levels. Search maxed Disable maxed Tumble maxed Jump at least 5 Balance at least 5 Open Lock at least 5 Spot maxed (keeps you alive) and you've got room for a few others of your choice... Could be face skills, could be other things. g) If you -DO- want to be a face, remember that there are at least 4 useful human languages that come up often, and probably 2-3 locations that K(local) refers to, so you'll have to take the skill several times. K(local-core), K (local-your meta-region), K(local-other meta-region that you might go to). Gather info is probably cheaper, since it's portable. h) Finally, many of these options don't need to be decided upon right now. If you find yourself jumping around a lot, continue putting ranks in jump. If your region is an island, and you all take boats everywhere, throw some skill points at profession sailor and swim. If you pick up a lizardman cohort, learn his language. Have fun.
#5 timlagor Apr 16, 2008 17:24:07	You MUST have at least 16 (base) Str and you really want more. Open Lock 1 is probably enough really -it's nice to be able to open doors quietly but no one really expects it. Balance 5 is essential and also sufficient. Tumble doesn't really need to be Maxed +14 mod is plenty: you have REach remember and you will be looking for Enlarge Person (good reason to have UMD) Money earned from skills between adventurers is deliberately kept so low as to be irrelevant. All three levels of EWM are good for you. (flurry, trip and the cover one probably) Assume you will not find anything on an AR. Skill tricks and Alternate class features are particularly unlikely though you probably will find Mithral.
#6 scruloose Apr 16, 2008 18:45:32	a) Overall, stats look good. But, that's a lot of wisdom and charisma. Would you be better off with a 16 somewhere? You MUST have at least 16 (base) Str and you really want more. If I were playing a fighter instead of a rogue, I would drop the Cha and Wis. However a -1 to will saves and in this characters case to skills like diplomacy and spot seem extemely bad. While I would like to have a +1 to hit +2 to damage +5% to trip, this seems to be a rather strong hit. Timlagor, I would like to have a str of 16, but why MUST I have it? c) Hold the line is best if you're out front, and therefore likely to get charged. Power attack is best if you're absolutely sure to hit. I'd pass on both, and make sure to have X(spiked chain), combat reflexes, imp. trip, imp. disarm. You'll probably need to pick up combat expertise along the way. That's a nice wide range of useful combat options. Power attack was to gain for the increased chance to hit from tripping, but the lost BAB from going this route makes that less than a perfect option. My thought on hold the line is that I may be up front (or in the rear) on battlefield control watch g) If you -DO- want to be a face, remember that there are at least 4 useful human languages that come up often, and probably 2-3 locations that K(local) refers to, so you'll have to take the skill several times. K(local-core), K (local-your meta-region), K(local-other meta-region that you might go to). Gather info is probably cheaper, since it's portable. I do not think I understand this. What does K stand for (common)? Why are there different regional languages? Also, what racial languages tend to be important? I am looking at giving up being a face, but being capable of at least diplomacy in many situations. h) Finally, many of these options don't need to be decided upon right now. If you find yourself jumping around a lot, continue putting ranks in jump. If your region is an island, and you all take boats everywhere, throw some skill points at profession sailor and swim. If you pick up a lizardman cohort, learn his language. Have fun. I know, but setting up skills now for prerequisites may be necesary. For example, if I take thief-acrobat, I should take ranks in climb. Money earned from skills between adventurers is deliberately kept so low as to be irrelevant. Assume you will not find anything on an AR. Skill tricks and Alternate class features are particularly unlikely though you probably will find Mithral. Thanks, I did not know that. All three levels of EWM are good for you. (flurry, trip and the cover one probably) My thoughts exactly
#7 jstorrie Apr 16, 2008 19:31:10	This sort of thing lends itself well to a Daring Outlaw build. I push the Daring Outlaw build frequently, sure, but it's definitely all about going fighter-rogue with a two-handed finessable weapon, so it's a pretty specific fit. You can go– Human, Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 8 1 Rog: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Trapfinding, Sneak Attack +1d6 2 Ftr: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain 3 Swash: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus 4 Swash: Grace +1 5 Rog: Evasion 6 Rog: Daring Outlaw, Sneak Attack +3d6, Dodge Bonus +1, Trap sense +1 (or Penetrating Strike ACF, if possible) 7 Ftr: Power Attack 8 Ftr 9 Ftr: Weapon Specialization, Melee Weapon Mastery 1o Swash: Insightful Strike 11 Rog: Uncanny Dodge, Sneak Attack +4d6 12 Exotic Weapon Master: Staggering Strike, Flurry of Strikes 13 Swash 14 Swash: Sneak Attack +5d6 15 Swash: Combat Reflexes, Dodge Bonus +2 Skills are definitely tight, but Swashbuckler does get 4/level and has fairly good list. You can afford to cc for Search/Disable. Your Will save is very poor, yes–prioritize shoring it up with items. Don't take Charisma skills.
#8 kinevon Apr 16, 2008 23:28:09	If I were playing a fighter instead of a rogue, I would drop the Cha and Wis. However a -1 to will saves and in this characters case to skills like diplomacy and spot seem extemely bad. While I would like to have a +1 to hit +2 to damage +5% to trip, this seems to be a rather strong hit. Timlagor, I would like to have a str of 16, but why MUST I have it? Because, as I was informed in another thread, +5 on a trip attempt, even at low APLs, is not going to be good enough. At higher APLs, you'll just lose your spiked chain. I do not think I understand this. What does K stand for (common)? Why are there different regional languages? Also, what racial languages tend to be important? I am looking at giving up being a face, but being capable of at least diplomacy in many situations. K stands for Knowledge, as in several different items all fall in the general "local" area, but you would need all 4 as separate skills(core, meta-region, region, other commonly-visited meta-region). Not sure which human languages, besides common, come up, but languages, depending on where you play, can be useful. Orc, Dwarven, and various others can all be useful.
#9 tetsujinoni Apr 17, 2008 10:32:50	Not sure which human languages, besides common, come up, but languages, depending on where you play, can be useful. Orc, Dwarven, and various others can all be useful. Ancient Suloise, Old Oeridian, Flan, Baklunish are commonly used. I've seen at least one series of mods where some other obscure human languages make or break the enjoyability of the series. Celestial, Infernal, and Draconic are quite valuable as well.
#10 umiskatonic Apr 17, 2008 13:29:26	Well, the title of the thread is 'rogue chain tripper'. If you really mean that, you'll want to have a 16 Strength. Otherwise, you'll be the 'rogue tries to trip and fails but has a +4 on bluff checks'. I don't know about you, but that seems like a lot less fun to me. ---------------------------------------------------------- NO character is good at everything. Sorry, but that's how it is. There's nothing about 'rogue chain tripper' that says 'I need wisdom'. Since you will need Str, Dex, Con to fight, and INT for skills, something has got to give. ---------------------------------------------------------- Let me suggest Rogue 3/marshal 2/Ftr 2 as a possible start to your adventuring career. You'll get a bonus out of your charisma, which can go toward tripping. Marshals get all the social skills, including speak language, and a bonus feat, skill focus (diplomacy). You'll be a respectably good party face, a good trapfinder, and a secondary fighter. Whaddya think?
#11 scruloose Apr 17, 2008 15:40:07	Well, the title of the thread is 'rogue chain tripper'. If you really mean that, you'll want to have a 16 Strength. Otherwise, you'll be the 'rogue tries to trip and fails but has a +4 on bluff checks'. I don't know about you, but that seems like a lot less fun to me. ---------------------------------------------------------- NO character is good at everything. Sorry, but that's how it is. There's nothing about 'rogue chain tripper' that says 'I need wisdom'. Since you will need Str, Dex, Con to fight, and INT for skills, something has got to give. ---------------------------------------------------------- Let me suggest Rogue 3/marshal 2/Ftr 2 as a possible start to your adventuring career. You'll get a bonus out of your charisma, which can go toward tripping. Marshals get all the social skills, including speak language, and a bonus feat, skill focus (diplomacy). You'll be a respectably good party face, a good trapfinder, and a secondary fighter. Whaddya think? Ok I have three people thinking I should boost Str (UMiskatonic, Timlagor, and Kinevon, thanks for the responses) at the expense of charisma and wisdom. I am convinced; I am looking at being fairly close to iconic for a tripper build as possible while retaining some rogue abilities, not to majorly sacrifice figting abilties to get some skills. I took a look at a modified Daring Outlaw build (as suggested by jstorrie) and found that at a sacrifice of one useful feat (weapon finesse is rather unuseful to the build) and 16 skill points I could gain a BAB, 2 AC, 8 hp, 2 Fort, 1 Ref, and +Int(start 2) damage. At first glance, the build looks worth it. It looks something like: Human Rogue - Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Trapfinding, Sneak Attack +1d6 Fighter - Improved Trip Rogue - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain), Evasion Rogue - Sneak Attack +2d6, Trap Sense +1(or alternative class feature) Swashbuckler - Weapon Finesse Swashbuckler - Daring Outlaw, Sneak Attack +3d6, Grace +1, Dodge +1 Rogue - Uncanny Dodge(or alternative class feature) Swashbuckler - Sneak Attack +4d6, Insightful Strike Fighter - Weapon Focus, Staggering Strike Exotic Weapon Master - Exotic Reach Rogue - Rogue - Improved Disarm(optional), Sneak Attack +5d6, Trap Sense +2 Exotic Weapon Master - Exotic Trip or Flurry Rogue - Dodge +2 Rogue - Power Attack(optional), Imp Uncanny Dodge, Sneak Attack +6d6, Grace +2 I dropped wpn spec, wpn mastery, and a dead level, for more sneak attack and skill points (-2 to hit, -.5 damage on a sneak attack) and a better disarm option. I also rearranged the levels to allow the character a more even spread of power development at low levels. Any comments or advice is appreciated. UMiskatonic, I took a look at Marshall, but, with Dex (Combat Reflexes), Con (HP), and Int (Combat Expertise, skills) essential for the build, I could not see sacrificing to hit and damage for the charisma skills even if the trip likelihood remained the same. In addition, the Marshall would create a loss of another BAB and would drop sneak attack.
#12 timlagor Apr 17, 2008 16:51:54	Flurry should be your first EWM Trick and I'd want it sooner if at all possible: it'll do a lot more for you than those Swashbuckler levels. I find your lack of Power Attack disturbing. Sometimes you just need it and level 15 doesn't count. I wouldn't worry too much about skills (and use Retrain rather than cc if you have too many non-rogue levels). You can't do everything and you're already trying for a lot in attempting to make a Tripping Rogue at all. I think you'd be better off skipping the Swashbuckler myself. I'd rather sacrifice the Feat to play a race with +2 Str (Wood Elf for preference because that's an extra AoO too but HOrc works as well).
#13 scruloose Apr 17, 2008 18:14:59	I would love to take EWM sooner, The soonest possible, however, is 8th (BAB 6+ with a -1 BAB at 1st means I cannot enter into it until 8th. That, however, slows down gaining insightful strike and an extra die of sneak attack until 10th. (2 attacks at min of 2d4+4d6+8 damage or 3 attacks at -2 to hit for 2d4+3d6+6 damage). Overall the extra damage seems preferable, but I will keep your suggestion in mind and build an AC table. I will think about switching the EWM special ability; bypassing cover for purposes of making AoO is very useful for promoting the AoO concept, especially if I am going to be second in line instead of a frontliner and especially if I get enlarge. Still, an extra attack with sneak attack is nice on a full attack, and the character does not gain extra attacks like a TWF rogue would. I can also bump the secon EWM level to an earlier position. Power Attack would be nice, but is delaying disarm and staggering strike better. I will think about it. All the earlier feats are set in this build. In addition, I can sacrifice extra to hit for AC . For the most part I will use sneak attack for extra damage or a wand if I cannot sneak attack; this makes power attack at least partially superfluous. I looked at the build without swashbuckler and the one with it. Basically swashbuckler is in there to boost sneak attack without losing BAB (and of course for insightful strike). If I took a pure rogue build, I lose a lot of tanking ability for not much gain. In addition, most of the prestige classes I have looked at are either too focused on skill monkey (exemplar), do not progress skills/fighting capability as much as the swashbuckler (streetfighter), or do not provide benefits to makeup for loss of sneak attack (thief-acrobat). If you have another suggestion, I am all ears. (Nightscar enforcer by the way is not open, I considered it) Human is necesary for two reasons. I have mostly dropped the face skills and have not used a single CC skill (although I never thought about retraining to keep the skills at max easier; I may take that advice.). Just keeping search and disable maxed while putting tumble (min +14), spot, and use magic device at major priority requires the extra skill point. In addition, and more importantly, it allows the character to gain access to EWP by 3rd. The only other option is to open with Rogue 1/Fighter 2, and slow the sneak attack damage progression. Add to that, at this point, the losses to other stats excessively harm all the character secondary rolls. I am playing a balancing act with the characters primary and secondary party rolls. A +7 to trip could be better, but that +1 hurts too many other things. Thanks for the advice. Keep em coming.
#14 jstorrie Apr 17, 2008 19:45:35	You can't dump Weapon Finesse from that build I offered–it's a bonus feat from the Swashbuckler class. Delaying Power Attack isn't a viable option whatsoever; you're using a two-handed weapon and going for high damage and have high Strength and attack bonuses. Nothing is more critical to that build than Power Attack, aside from perhaps Daring Outlaw itself. Seriously, I've tinkered the hell out of that build–there's very little room for modification there, aside from your choice of skills and the 15th level feat. The additional EWM tricks aren't worth the loss of skill points and SA/Dodge bonus progression. The early-level feats are all necessary and can't really be moved around; you need the MWM prereqs by 9, you need Power Attack, you need to start with Improved Trip, and you need Daring Outlaw at 6. There's no wiggle room.
#15 umiskatonic Apr 18, 2008 3:48:54	I'd switch the feats to get spiked chain at first level. I'd hate to spend two levels explaining that I'm a chain tripper, but I don't have a chain yet.
#16 rpgdcj Apr 18, 2008 8:10:15	I'd switch the feats to get spiked chain at first level. I'd hate to spend two levels explaining that I'm a chain tripper, but I don't have a chain yet. That's difficult if the first level is Rogue, since EWP requires BAB +1.
#17 umiskatonic Apr 18, 2008 9:30:04	That's too bad. Hmm, swing it non-proficiently? Probably better off to go with some other normal weapon. You could still take it at 2nd level.
#18 mwao_dup Apr 18, 2008 9:42:25	That's too bad. Sickle is not a bad replacement. The build really needs Combat Acrobat from PHBII - that's a vital feat for a tripper, especially one who won't have a superhigh Strength. Basically, if an effect would cause you to fall prone, you make a DC 20 Balance check to not fall down. i.e. you have this feat and a solid balance check, you can attempt to trip things that you know you're unlikely to hit normally, are possible to trip, but are likely to win the trip attempt. As an example, you're flurrying, you're doing your iterative against something you're only hitting on say an 17 or so and it is some sort of large creature. You'll probably trip it around 30% of the time, but those aren't good enough odds if you're likely to lose your weapon after you fail.
#19 umiskatonic Apr 18, 2008 10:12:25	You can also get there with Quick Draw, but some judges will balk when you try to quick draw your 3rd spiked chain inside a 6 second interval.
#20 scruloose Apr 18, 2008 10:36:41	Jstorrie, I know you cannot drop weapon finesse, which is why I left it in the build. The point I was making is that I do not count the free feat as a replacement for the lost feat from taking Dating Outlaw. Consequently, I consider adding swashbuckler to be a net of -1 feat. That said, the build I put together does a little less damage and has a poorer to hit in exchange for easier skill access, better AoO, and a bigger frontload. UMiskatonic, I could have sped up access to the chain by at most 1 level. Instead, I am going to use long spear with spiked armor at 1st (for reach+AoO with combat reflexes), switch to guisarme with spiked armor at 2nd (for tripping at range), and finally hit spiked chain at 3rd. I am planning on treating the character as a pure rogue with some unusual combat abilities at 1st and treating the character as a tripper at 2nd. It is a roll switch, but at 1st level, I suspect that extra attacks from AoO will, more often than not, be sufficient to act as a killing blow (especially if I sent to receive a charge). MwaO, I took a look at scickle, but I think I prefer reach to tripping at 1st. Otherwise, I would have switched to CE and Imp Trip at 1st with scickle and EWP at 2nd, with combat reflexes at 3rd. I am open to being persuaded otherwise, however. Hey a new feat to fit in the build. It looks good enough to replace a feat, now where to put it? Thanks MwaO. Keep the suggestions coming and thanks to all of you!
#21 katrick Apr 18, 2008 12:12:36	As a tripper you will need 16+str, it's easy to trip at first As a damage effective rogue you will want Power attack With weapon finesse, 6d6 sneak and power attack, 16 str wont mean diddly but 16 dex will mean a lot against undead, the trick is to fight what you can sneak and ICE, Fight def etc,what you cant sneak(IUZ metaregion anyone) You seem to have missed the three stat bumps, so a 15 dex in there might make things a little easier or a 12 int and stat bump at 4th for CE, Also a feat, i think from Complete Scoundrel; Deadly defense, if you CE 2 you add d6 weapon damage. Pick 3 skills and flatten them screw the rest. Tumble only needs 10 ranks, you put 5 in jump +2,+2 for dex and you can only roll a 1=15 if you want to go through their square to escape then it's 50/50, take the risk. Put one rank in open lock so you can do it, if it doesn't work then smash the door down with your adamantine spiked chain. Traps can be found by any stupid fighter type or a summon monster 1. Max UMD, when the cleric goes down you are a god!!! and who knows you might even want to put 5 ranks in Decipher and 5 in Spellcraft and buy and cast scrolls of Grt Invis to make your Opposition lose their Dex. All this doesn't help with trippin though, sorry... katrick
#22 scruloose Apr 18, 2008 17:41:32	OK. I have had several people suggest power attack. Admittedly, at lower levels power attack will be useful and if the character cannot sneak attack, it will be useful. However, after crunching the numbers (rather simple in Excel), by 8th level the character will be averaging 27 damage (2d4+6Str+4d6 Sneak Attack+2 Insightful Strike). This assumes that the character obtains no magical weapons and no enhancement bonus to either strength or intelligence. At 27 damage, power attack is useless if the character hits between 10% and 75% of the time (yes I remembered that power attack does +2 damage for every -1). If the character can only hit on a 20 anyway, I would want to boost AC more than damage as I pray that a spellcaster can save me from the BBEG. Between a 5% and 25% miss rate, the benefits to damage are so slight for power attacking (.75 damage per hit, best case scenario) that you will almost always be better off using combat expertise and fighting defensively. Even as early as 6th (the earliest I can reasonably gain power attack, by the way, is 3rd without hurting the character's trip ability) the character can, best case scenario, either do +2.125 extra damage per hit with power attack, or gain the benefits of some other feat. Admittedly, you can power attack if you hit on a 1 and the bonus to damage can, at that point start to become significant (2.4 at 100% going up roughly 1.8 each 5% past that). However, this does not take into account multiple attacks. In addition, how often does it come up where a non-touch attack against a rougly equal level encounter has a better than 95% chance of hitting when the attacking character does not have max BAB or hit boosting feats. Basically, by the time the character is 8th, power attack becomes a corner case use feat if sneak attack is available. If sneak attack is not available, the character will use UMD over attacking or go completely defensive and rely on tripping. Of course, even if sneak attack is not available, I am better off not power attacking if the character needs a 16 or better to hit (realistically the bonus is not good enough to match weapon specialization until 6 ot better), so even than I might be better off with something else. So, what am I missing that makes power attack so good?! Enough of the rant, katrick: I am playing a rogue that can fight, not a fighter with a few acrobatic skills. That means that the character must have at least a +5 open locks (1 rank) and near max levels in search and disable device. Otherwise the character cannot meet his roll out of combat. In addition, UMD needs to be maxed and tumble needs to be at least +14 (10 ranks) as you mentioned. If the character takes acrobatic charge, balance must be maxed out. I want to keep spot maxed out because surprise often means loss of opportunity to control. This means I need roughly 6 skill points per level, more if I take any skills cross-class. That is why skills are so important to me. I did remember the stat bump, but 14 Int is a gimme when skill are important, and everyone seems to agree that a 16 Str is essential for the bump to trips, even at first. I could drop Con or Dex by 1, but what would I increase and how badly would that hurt low level combat? I am looking at increasing strength at 4th and 8th and whatever has an inherent bonus by 12th. Oh, I forgot to thanks TetsujinOni earlier for the advice on language...thanks. I come from the Theocracy of the Pale, so I am thinking Old Oeridian (apparently most Pholtus worshipers are Oeridian) and Celestial (for the religion connection)
#23 timlagor Apr 18, 2008 19:11:32	I was thinking you would need Power Attack for those times when you can only do 2d4+6 damage per swing without it. Also for breaking down doors etc. NB: you can't sunder with a spiked chain since it is a piercing weapon.
#24 jstorrie Apr 19, 2008 16:38:14	Eh. By dumping Power Attack and WS/MWM I think you're really taking this character in the wrong direction. You're not going to be happy when you run into encounters where tripping is not optimal and you can't get your Sneak Attack dice or Insightful Strike bonus. I do think Combat Reflexes would be a great first level feat, but I don't think there's really anything worse than can be dropped for it, not unless you want to give up tripping.
#25 umiskatonic Apr 20, 2008 9:02:43	Power attack is a good feat. Ask yourself, why is there nearly unanimous agreement on this? While your math seems ok, you need to factor in a few things. 1) Creature has DR 5,10, or even 15 of a type you can't overcome. 2) You have +4 to hit because enemy is prone 3) You do not exist in isolation. At APL 2, you could have +2 to hit and damage with a bard at the table. Or you could be enlarged. At APL 10, you could literally be shrouded in flame, with a greater magic weapon, a recitation, and a prayer spell going.
#26 scruloose Apr 23, 2008 10:51:52	Thanks everyone for all the great replies. I can understand why power attack is good, the problem I am facing is what to replace with it. Ultimately, EWP, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, and Imp Trip are essential for the core concept. Jstorrie, I know combat reflexes is obtained late in your build, but I consider being able to trip while flatfooted or outnumbered to be an essential battlefield control strategy. This takes the character through level 3 for feats. Moreover, taking power attack this early is limited by the reduced BAB. Beyond that, Daring Outlaw seems essential because of the boost in combat prowess Swashbuckler gives the character (higher AC, to Hit, Damage, HP, Fort, and Reflex). The total boost seems to exceed power attacks benefits. Acrobatic Charge seems like a no-brainer for a trip build. Between power attack or the ability to be immune to being tripped back, I have to go with the latter. Weapon Focus is a prestige class prereq. That means that the earliest I can take power attack is at 9th, delaying staggering strike to 12th. As has been pointed out power attack is useful for increasing damage against creatures that cannot be sneak attacked, against high DR creatures, to makeup for the bonus from buffs/debuffs, and with a different weapon, for breaking down door). I will add to that power attack is also good for fighting vastly superior or inferior opponents and for taking a risk to kill a creature in one blow even though average damage may be lower in order to reduce average risk. This is a lot of use for a single feat. Defeating high DR opponents requires the right equipment, spending a feat on something that you can throw money at always seemed to me to be a waste. The character will do a minimum of 2d4(base)+4(str*1.5) damage per round. I consider this to be acceptable damage for a low-level rogue against an opponent immune to sneak attack. If I am lucky and find the right mod, I might even be able to get penetrating strike (or slightly worse, death's ruin) and class alternative abilities. If that happens, sneak attack will make up for the loss in power attack. If not, the character can still trip, aid other, or use magic device. In other words the loss of power attack will be annoying at low levels but hardly crippling (same goes for wpn spec and mastery at mid-levels). On the other hand, loss of anything else up to 9th will cripple the character's core concept. By 9th, the decision comes - power attack or staggering strike. One is a massive boost to the characters sneak attack, his core competency. The other covers for some of sneak attack's weaknesses. Both come highly recommended. I will think about which is preferable (MWaO, since you are one of those that recommends both, which do you think is better at 9th.) Of the other benefits bonus attack. The bonus from buffs, and fighting vastly superior or inferior opponents can also be obtained by liberal use of fighting defensively and combat expertise. Rather than increase damage, I will increase defense; not as good a strategy, admittedly, but an acceptable substitute. For breaking down doors, I expect to pick locks or use scrolls of knock for DC 31+. That will replace the need to boost break damage. Finally the ability to make a single-blow kill is obviated by the ability of the character to provide battlefield control; if the opponent is tripped, killing it in one blow is less important. Anyway these are my thoughts on power attack. Can anyone see any toher ways to improve the build? I greatly appreciate all the help!
#27 mwao_dup Apr 23, 2008 12:23:01	Thanks everyone for all the great replies. I can understand why power attack is good, the problem I am facing is what to replace with it. Ultimately, EWP, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, and Imp Trip are essential for the core concept. Jstorrie, I know combat reflexes is obtained late in your build, but I consider being able to trip while flatfooted or outnumbered to be an essential battlefield control strategy. This takes the character through level 3 for feats. Moreover, taking power attack this early is limited by the reduced BAB. Beyond that, Daring Outlaw seems essential because of the boost in combat prowess Swashbuckler gives the character (higher AC, to Hit, Damage, HP, Fort, and Reflex). Daring Outlaw is one of those feats that's really useful when you're mostly Swashbuckler and you want to do a lot of sneak attack damage. For a mostly Rogue, it is a little bleh - in situations that you are doing lots of damage, you get to do a little more damage. The problem that Rogues have is what happens when they can't sneak attack. If you're a Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 10, it is a great feat. If you're a Rogue 8/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/EWM 2, you're getting a much more minor benefit. I'd go the simpler route of Rogue 9/Fighter 6 and dump the Spiked Chain for a Guisarme: 1: Rogue 1: Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise 2: Fighter 1: Improved Trip 3: Fighter 2: WF: Guisarme, Power Attack 4: Rogue 2 5: Fighter 3 6: Rogue 3: Combat Acrobat 7: Fighter 4: WS: Guisarme 8: Fighter 5 9: Fighter 6: MWM: Slashing, Staggering Strike 10: Rogue 4 Yes, Spiked Chain is a wonderful weapon, but it isn't worth giving up Power Attack, Combat Acrobat, or MWM: Slashing for...WS/MWM converted straight into Power Attack means you do an extra 8 damage per swing. As for lots of Fighter levels? You end up with 30 ranks of Fighter skills that you then retrain 7 times into Rogue skills