choices look really good:
Trumpet Archon
Leonal Guardinal
Deva Angel
It seems that your average APL 12 table could easily absorb the cost, yet I have NEVER seen this in play with any of my higher level characters. Is it the bargaining time, or the cost, or is it just simpler to cast bolt of glory and call it a round?
Or, have I just happened to be at the rare tables where the spell isn't cast, due to freakish probability?
Anyone use this? I'm about to get 6th level cleric spells (Pelor), and the
choices look really good:
Trumpet Archon
Leonal Guardinal
Deva Angel
It seems that your average APL 12 table could easily absorb the cost, yet I have NEVER seen this in play with any of my higher level characters. Is it the bargaining time, or the cost, or is it just simpler to cast bolt of glory and call it a round?
Or, have I just happened to be at the rare tables where the spell isn't cast, due to freakish probability?
I've never cast it, because my Neutral Good cleric worships a Neutral goddess and the spell is thus entirely nerfed for her by LG rules (her best option is about 10 CRs less powerful than the equivalent for a good-aligned deity). I've also never seen it cast, although it seems like a pretty powerful spell if your deity is good-aligned. I suspect people are turned off by the gold cost - high-level players seem to get rather obsessed with the wealth-by-level curve ;)
The very first trap was a L9 spell which polymoprhed most of the party members, including the ally, into nasty lycanthropes. Were it not for my positioning and my brand new cohort, just taken at level 9, it would have been either a TPK or "only my char escaped", mostly because of the stupid ally (who just for grins, got turned into a weretiger...). One less lycanthrope in the party would have made that encounter much less deadly.
Then the player tried to get us to pony up AGAIN for ANOTHER ally before we continued. The table revolted. Even in a midnight madness we had some sense.
Naturally the module was packed with fear and poison effects that would have done nothing had we just had the normal hero feast. *grrr*
Plus we were all short cash at the end, because we had to do the binding BEFORE earning any cash, much less over cap cash. Bleah.
Never again!
As a side note....in a level 16 BK interactive somebody used a candle of invocation to boost caster level enough to gate in a Solar. That pretty much trivialized a number of the battles, although we got to fight extra stuff (such as a Balor) attracted by the transport of this powerful celestial into the abyss, and we managed to mess up an untiered encounter we were supposed to avoid, and that was sorta fun.
Again, having seen it in action it isn't a course of action I recommend. It can throw the balance of things off in ways that are unfun - either by spending a ton of cash for power that isn't needed or by overpowering the table so much that it also isn't fun. Maybe in a 4 person table where nobody cares about cash much because the campaign is ending soon it might be ok....
I GMed a game recently where candles of invocation were used to gate in solars for combats. Yes, they went through two candles in two separate combats. It probably wasn't entirely necessary in either combat, but there would certainly have been more PC deaths without their use. I had originally thought that a solar would have a completely unbalancing effect on the game, but it certainly didn't trivialise the combats. You know things are going bad when your solar is almost knocked unconscious.
Having played at that table, I can say I am quite appreciative to the party member that burned those candles. Definately a big help.
choices look really good:
Trumpet Archon
Leonal Guardinal
Deva Angel
It seems that your average APL 12 table could easily absorb the cost, yet I have NEVER seen this in play with any of my higher level characters. Is it the bargaining time, or the cost, or is it just simpler to cast bolt of glory and call it a round?
Or, have I just happened to be at the rare tables where the spell isn't cast, due to freakish probability?"
LGCS 7.5 pg 17, the ally must have the same alignment as your god. For Pelor, that is Neutral Good (pg 132 of LG Deities 2.0).
Trumpet archons are lawful good, not neutral good. As far as I know, you cannot call Trumpet Archons with a cleric of Pelor.
Casting time 10 minutes plus 1d8+Int mod rounds bargaining. Gold expense ranging from 100 GP per HD to 2000 GP per HD. And it sounds like you're trying to use the spell in combat. In Living Greyhawk, as a player, you often cannot control the timing of combat. If you know you have to get somewhere in a hurry, then you won't be able to take the time to cast the spell. If you don't have to get anywhere in a hurry, then you need to pay the monster more for its time.
That means if you want to use the monster in a combat situation, you probably need to pay 1000 gp per HD (500 gp for 1 hour per caster level, or 11 hours, doubled for probable hazard to the creature. Even then, considering the open-ended nature of a requesting a planar ally to help you and your allies in combat, there would probably have to be an escape clause for the creature to leave you and your allies; after all, a called creature is actually dead if it dies, unlike a summoned creature.
So you're looking at a payment of 12000 gold for your archon; at APL 10 the take is 2300 GP at APL 12 it's 3300 gp. Even split 5-6 ways, 12000 gp is a pretty big chunk of change. At APL 10, it means a table of 5 would actually LOSE gold on the mod.
Given all these above facts, you can see why Planar Ally just isn't a very popular spell. There are times and places for it and its greater and lesser versions, but it's typically a spell you don't take unless you have a very specific reason and are willing to foot the cost of the spell yourself. An ally that has conditions under which it will run, that you have to pay a lot of gold for, that requires time that you may not have to bring along, that lasts for a limited time so may only be of use for one encounter - best just take another spell in most cases.
That means if you want to use the monster in a combat situation, you probably need to pay 1000 gp per HD (500 gp for 1 hour per caster level, or 11 hours, doubled for probable hazard to the creature. Even then, considering the open-ended nature of a requesting a planar ally to help you and your allies in combat, there would probably have to be an escape clause for the creature to leave you and your allies; after all, a called creature is actually dead if it dies, unlike a summoned creature.
So you're looking at a payment of 12000 gold for your archon; at APL 10 the take is 2300 GP at APL 12 it's 3300 gp. Even split 5-6 ways, 12000 gp is a pretty big chunk of change. At APL 10, it means a table of 5 would actually LOSE gold on the mod.
I think you're overstating the problems here. There is no "doubled for a probably hazardous task" clause: the 500gp / HD payment is halved if the task is not hazardous (i.e. the default assumption is that it's hazardous - the spell says you may pay extra for an especially hazardous task but gives no specific rules for it, and says the creatures generally won't accept suicidal tasks). 1000gp/HD should get you a loyal ally for days = CL. Sure, give them an escape clause, the same one that's generally understood for PCs with Teleport: if it looks like a TPK is imminent they'll probably try to escape to the best of their abilities. So long as the PCs also treat the ally like another PC (i.e. availability of delay death or close wounds, healing and restorative magic when they get injured), I can't see a Neutral Good angel or guardinal having too much trouble with the deal - you are, after all, presumably fighting in the service of their god (being a high-level cleric and all).
You can also halve the payment by picking a task "strongly aligned with the creature's ethos". The example given is summoning a celestial to battle demons - for a cleric of Pelor summoning an angel in Pelor's service, fighting undead is almost certainly also a valid choice.
So yeah... consider going into a Core Special with a blurb indicating lots of undead and fiends. You can probably get a leonal guardinal or deva of Pelor for CL hours by paying 3000gp - 500gp per party member. I can see it's situational and because of the gold cost I probably wouldn't use it except in high-difficulty adventures (like the aforementioned Core Special), but I think it can be a pretty amazing spell in the right circumstances. (Sure, if you prep it you didn't prep a Heal in that slot. Since the deva has Heal as a spell-like ability I fail to see the problem...)
I think you're overstating the problems here.
I think so too, actually. But perhaps not terribly so. I will make additional comments in response.
There is no "doubled for a probably hazardous task" clause: the 500gp / HD payment is halved if the task is not hazardous (i.e. the default assumption is that it's hazardous - the spell says you may pay extra for an especially hazardous task but gives no specific rules for it
You are quite correct. The fee is NOT doubled for a "probably hazardous task". To use the wording of the spell description, you may ask the creature to perform one task in exchange for payment from you - and one of those tasks is "help us fight a battle" and "protect us on a foray into the dungeon". Only an "especially hazardous task" might require a greater gift.
My personal approach (in italics) is that open-ended but binding contract to protect a party of adventurers entails a real risk to a creature that may die. The creature will be aware of this, and will bargain accordingly. "Help us fight a battle" to me means to help fight a battle - but this does not mean to fight to the death, similar for "protect us on a foray into the dungeon". So if the party does use a Planar Ally spell to call a creature for escort duty, as a DM, I would EITHER apply the doubled cost for an especially hazardous task if the ally were to fight to near death conditions, OR I would set some generous conditions under which the creature would be allowed to return to its home plane (probably being reduced to below 1/3 or 1/4 hit points with additional discretion allowed on the part of the ally).
This may or MAY NOT be how other DMs would rule.
and says the creatures generally won't accept suicidal tasks). 1000gp/HD should get you a loyal ally for days = CL. Sure, give them an escape clause, the same one that's generally understood for PCs with Teleport: if it looks like a TPK is imminent they'll probably try to escape to the best of their abilities.
So long as the PCs also treat the ally like another PC (i.e. availability of delay death or close wounds, healing and restorative magic when they get injured), I can't see a Neutral Good angel or guardinal having too much trouble with the deal - you are, after all, presumably fighting in the service of their god (being a high-level cleric and all).
You make some good points, and I'm glad you posted to bring up the other point of view. But again - I would still rule far differently than it seems you would. An outsider that you summon is in many senses a mercenary, and a mercenary that agrees to fight to the death for low pay is simply foolish. Considering the fact that a limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection spell is necessary to bring an outsider back to life, and considering that the outsider is probably considered more "expendable" than party members (and the outsider knows it too), I think the outsider would want to run far before a real TPK became imminent. If the outsider considered itself to be in trouble, I think it would run. And hence, at a table I DMed, it WOULD run if its agreement allowed it to do so, and since it is an intelligent creature, it would bargain accordingly, either for a generous escape clause or increased pay for increased danger.
As far as an angel or a guardinal having trouble with a deal based on alignment, my interpretation is again far stricter than yours. Of course you are not saying that you would have the creature kill babies or some such thing. But it does sound like you are saying an angel or guardinal would be naturally inclined to go along with a high level cleric and the cleric's adventuring party simply based on alignment, which is not something I believe. The angel or guardinal has its own very strict codes of conduct and beliefs of "good", and the planar ally is probably not personally invested in whatever questionable venture the cleric and the cleric's party are involved in. It is hard to see how an open-ended agreement to "Aid us in battle" is an innately good act. Only were the party to, say, be involved in the destruction of Evil (capitalized on purpose) or the salvation of the Innocent (again capitalized on purpose) would I consider the planar ally to lessen its fee, and knowing Living Greyhawk mods, I think such conditions would be RARE (although some locations may differ).
You can also halve the payment by picking a task "strongly aligned with the creature's ethos". The example given is summoning a celestial to battle demons - for a cleric of Pelor summoning an angel in Pelor's service, fighting undead is almost certainly also a valid choice.
I believe fighting undead is something the PELORITE would do normally, not the CELESTIAL, so would not constitute halving of payment as the celestial's motives are what determine payment amount. Again, I simply think this is because you are far more lenient than I would be.
So yeah... consider going into a Core Special with a blurb indicating lots of undead and fiends. You can probably get a leonal guardinal or deva of Pelor for CL hours by paying 3000gp - 500gp per party member. I can see it's situational and because of the gold cost I probably wouldn't use it except in high-difficulty adventures (like the aforementioned Core Special), but I think it can be a pretty amazing spell in the right circumstances. (Sure, if you prep it you didn't prep a Heal in that slot. Since the deva has Heal as a spell-like ability I fail to see the problem...)
If angels and celestials were so into escorting adventuring parties around, why don't they just do it all the time? Although I think I have followed your reasoning, I think I would still at least charge 24000 for a planar ally to fight until extreme personal risk to itself, or 12000 for a planar ally with a more generous escape clause. Only if the planar ally were to have a generous escape clause (hence no doubled price) AND be fighting demons or devils would I consider even 6000 gp to be allowed.
Anyways, you are free to rule it as you like at your table, but I personally think a quarter payment of 3000 gp is right out. Celestial/angel automatically thinking that guarding an adventuring party for hours is going to be nonhazardous? Celestial/angel automatically agreeing to halve payment on the basis of "strong alignment with the creature's ethos" - based on an assignment of guarding an adventuring party probably of mixed alignments on a goal that is probably not inherently "good"? I disagree.
Peace and love.
If angels and celestials were so into escorting adventuring parties around, why don't they just do it all the time?
*shrugs* I see a significant gap between "we'll escort any adventuring party around" and "at the request of a powerful cleric of the god we serve, and in exchange for a substantial donation, we will aid them in their fight on behalf of our deity". It's a L6 cleric spell - for L11+ clerics it's not meant to be something incredibly rare or exceptional, by that level yes you can have angelic allies if you're willing to pay the costs. (Of course, as you said, the allies will have their own alignment and motivations, and it would probably be a foolish cleric who summoned an angel to help out with a morally ambiguous mission.)
Although I think I have followed your reasoning, I think I would still at least charge 24000 for a planar ally to fight until extreme personal risk to itself, or 12000 for a planar ally with a more generous escape clause. Only if the planar ally were to have a generous escape clause (hence no doubled price) AND be fighting demons or devils would I consider even 6000 gp to be allowed.
Are you talking about the days/level or hours/level version? I assume days/level.
Anyways, you are free to rule it as you like at your table, but I personally think a quarter payment of 3000 gp is right out.
I'm talking about a half payment, for the hours/level task for a 12HD creature (normally 6000gp, goes down to 3000gp). For a days/level payment you're correct, doing a normal task aligned with the creature's ethos would still be 6000gp. I wouldn't give a quarter payment, unless it was for a non-hazardous task strongly aligned with the creature's ethos (for a deva serving Pelor, "Please help us to heal this non-magical plague" would probably qualify, given the deva has Remove Disease at will and thus is at no risk).
Celestial/angel automatically agreeing to halve payment on the basis of "strong alignment with the creature's ethos" - based on an assignment of guarding an adventuring party probably of mixed alignments on a goal that is probably not inherently "good"?
It's not "automatically" at all. I'm assuming that the cleric of Pelor isn't dumb enough to summon an astral deva to help them on, say, a morally ambiguous Bandit Kingdoms mission working for one of the Boneheart ;) The spell summons a powerful outsider/elemental servant of your deity (this is specified in the spell itself): I would assume that creature would share the ethos of your deity to a large extent (by LG rules, it must share its alignment).
So sure, if your mission is "help us kill the dragon and loot its hoard", you're not getting the "strongly aligned with its ethos" benefits unless the dragon is actually a half-fiend dragon working on behalf of a demon lord (or something else that an angel serving a good-aligned deity would REALLY want to stop). Per the spell description, fighting fiends is usually a good enough reason for any celestial to give you the 50% discount. For other claims to the 50% discount, I'd look at the portfolio of the deity in question and try to determine if the mission directly served the deity's interests or was strongly aligned with its portfolio, and in that case, I'd allow the discount. For example, Pelor's Deities' Document entry includes,
"More so than adherents of any other faith, the followers of Pelor often find themselves striving against the undead. They also undertake healing whenever they can - whether that healing is physical or spiritual. Quests that break up a cabal of necromancers, broker a peace accord between rival warlords, or destroy an ancient lich-queen once and for all are good examples of missions for the glory of Pelor."
Thus, for a cleric of Pelor, I'd probably give the 50% discount if they were calling an angel of Pelor to help battle undead, or if all they were required to do was aid in healing a large number of people. The "strongly aligned with the creature's ethos" clause is there for a reason - it shouldn't be ignored. That said, a generic "protect us for this mission" request would not get the discount: "protect us and fight with us as we destroy the lich and her minions" probably would (and the ally would leave when the lich was defeated, not staying if the adventure continued beyond that point).
It's entirely possible that our differing perspectives come from the missions our PCs' are usually doing - I tend to preferentially play my sacred exorcist in mods where the blurb indicates fiend/undead involvement, and those are often fairly morally unambiguous ("kill the lich and cleanse this place of the taint that is causing the fallen to rise as undead", "hunt down the fiend-summoning cult of Vecna that is kidnapping and sacrificing innocents", etc). If you're used to playing a lot of "feuding thieves' guilds" political mods, then yeah, this spell is going to be a LOT less useful.
Regarding escape clauses for the ally - sure. It's a good point that they're harder to revive than most party members. If my cleric could call these creatures, I'd probably promise to have a delay death spell reserved for them, plus an Assay Spell Resistance (since they normally have good SR): it's entirely reasonable for the ally to ask what provisions the party will take to protect it, before accepting the mission. If the party can't manage that level of protection then "I leave at 1/4 HP" seems quite reasonable. I do think that regarding them as simple mercenaries is misleading though: these are servants of a god sent to aid a powerful cleric of that god, and as such they should be willing to take reasonable risks to help out. (The payment is also not a trivial amount of gold, as you noted: even at half-price they're getting better than APL 10 rewards for CL=hours spent adventuring...)
But EVEN so, APL 10 pays 2300, APL 12 3300. Do you really see players shelling out 500-1000 GP per mod for a planar ally at those levels? I don't, and it isn't just because I want to shoot holes in your argument.
Example - I was playing an APL 8 table with an 8th level cleric and four or five 7th level characters. I memorized Planar Ally, Lesser and asked the party if they would shell out 50 gold each to cover the cost of calling in a hound archon to cast "aid" on everyone in a situation in which we knew we were headed towards trouble. (300 gold pieces for a nonhazardous task taking minutes).
Considering "aid" is an at will spell for an archon so could be recast continuously, every character would have gained 7-14 temporary hit points (probably 13-14 with the multiple castings available) and +1 to attacks and saves against fear for 50 rounds or so. Not bad for the price of about three cure light wand charges, right? Considering the party didn't have a bard, and considering that I hardly even memorize "Bless" with "Recitation" and "Prayer" available.
But of everyone at the table, NOT ONE PERSON wanted to do it. In fact, EVERYONE ELSE actually OPPOSED it. And with an anticipated payout of 1300 gp at APL 8, and with everyone else playing up a level. (edit) - actually, they didn't oppose it. They just wanted me to pay for the whole thing. (/edit)
I agree that for core specials and adaptables you could make a really strong case for Planar Ally spells, but I think in general, the table won't help foot the bill unless the table really anticipates a lot of combat. In my bitter experience, players just don't like to shell out gold. I suppose it's a habit - if you save consistently, you can afford better items sooner.
However I would never expect someone else to pay for something for my benefit (though I would naturally accept with gratitude anything they did decide to pay for for me that I was unwilling to buy myself ..except for bribes of course where it's probably a matter of principle)
Generally, it seems you're better off with Summon Monster VI, unless you have plenty of coin, or the time to set up defenses, or both.
It's too bad, really. Some of the creatures you can get are staggeringly cool.
Here's hoping that summoning will be fixed...someday.