Any cohort: +2 to leadership from Great Renown
Charisma 8 (-1)
The next time my PC levels (the first level of OotBI), I am planning on retraining his 6th level feat into Leadership, so he will have a 6th or 7th level cohort. 6th level is only if he dies before he next levels. ;)
My locale is a bit low on having reliable spellcasters available for adventuring parties. My PC now has some minimal divine casting ability, so I am leaning toward his cohort being an arcane caster, and Wizard seems to better suit the bill.
Now, spellcasting in general is one of my weak areas, I will admit right off, so I would appreciate any help I can get on this.
So, at present, the cohort would be 7th level to start with. Characteristics would be built using the Elite array. My plan would be to make the caster a buffer primary, with some battlefield control as his secondary area. Debuffers and blasting would not be refused, but wouldn't be a very strong area for a cohort, since he will, usually, be 2 levels below the primary PC, and therefore usually be playing above his level.
First question: Sorceror, Wizard or school specialized Wizard?
Sorceror: much more flexibility in casting spells as appropriate, but a fairly limited repertoire of spells. (Spells per day 6/6/6/4; known 7/5/3/2). Sorcerors, of course, can still use other arcane spells off of scrolls as needed.
Wizard: Much larger flexibility in spells known, but limited to only being able to cast, in general, whatever spells he has memorized that morning. Still able to use scrolls, but he gets a "wasted" free feat, since cohorts cannot know/use magic item creation feats. (Spells per day 4/4/3/2/1; known at start all PHB/5+int mod/4/4/2, basic numbers learnable at level)
Specialized wizard: Extra spell from the specialized school castable per day at each spell level, but locked out of 2 other schools completely. Likely to be either a Conjuration or Transmutation specialist, likely to give up Evocation & Enchantment; unless advice says otherwise.
So, other things I need advice on:
Human (extra skill, extra feat) or Gray Elf Wizard (Str -2, Dex +2, Con -2, Int +2)
Obviously, the 15 should go into Int, along with the 4th level stat boost. Other advise seems to point to 14 for the Con, 13 for Dex, 8 for Wis, 12 for Cha and 10 for Str. That would be for the Wizard, of course. Swap the 15 & stat boost to Cha for Sorceror, and would seem to point to the 12 going into Int. Any thoughts?
Last, but definitely not least, would be the spells known choice. Obviously limited, at least initially, to Open spells only.
Spells that I want on the spell list:
1: Endure Elements, Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Grease, Protection from Evil & Silent Image
2: Glitterdust, Invisibility, Rope Trick & See Invisibility
3: Dispel Magic, Fly, Haste & Greater Mage Armor
4: Dimension Door and Mass Darkvision
Again, there are other useful spells I know are missing.
Equipment:
I have Any access to a masterwork quarterstaff/lesser rod of metamagic extend for 3,600 gp; so I figure that would be a good item for my cohort to buy. With 3,600 gp left, what other items would be good? Vest of Resistance +1, Pearl of Power (1st level (again, I have open access to these)), a ranged weapon?, scrolls of some low level spells (limited to no more than 720 gp in value, either for use or to add to his spell list if Wizard), anything else?
My PC could also pick up a few items in the interim that might be useful, like arcanist's gloves (adventure access, probably expired before I level) or such.
Anything else I am missing?
And many thanks for any advice!
Do you have access to warweaver? If so, I would suggest you take that route with your cohort.
Originally I thought "No, I don't think I do."; but after looking through my ARs, it turns out that it is in there, albeit buried in the middle of one of the busier "choose an option" favor lists in my stack.
First question: Is the tapestry ability worth the loss of a level of spellcasting ability? At character level 7, that loses out on 4th level spells entirely.
Given a primary spellcasting stat of 16 (afterthe 4th level stat bump), that would mean that the cohort could include 3 other members of the party in his tapestry, if I understand it correctly. And it would only work for him for 1st & 2nd level spells.
Wizard 5/War Weaver 2, since he needs 3rd level Arcane spells to enter the PrC. Acts as a Wizard 6 in regards to spells.
Wes
First question: Is the tapestry ability worth the loss of a level of spellcasting ability? At character level 7, that loses out on 4th level spells entirely.
Given a primary spellcasting stat of 16 (afterthe 4th level stat bump), that would mean that the cohort could include 3 other members of the party in his tapestry, if I understand it correctly. And it would only work for him for 1st & 2nd level spells.
Having just come back from a convention where he had a warweaver at the table more often than not (2 of them were cohorts, 1 was a PC) ...
Once you hit warweaver 5, yes, yes, and very much yes. Everyone receiving greater invisibility, fly, as a move action *at range* wins combats. And that's without looking at a sublime chord war weaver cheese...
Below warweaver 5, it is still very very good, limited only by 'warweaver formation' (ie. being right next to the warweaver to receive the range:touch spells).
Add the ability to prebuff pretty much everyone who needs say, prot evil, with a single casting is big. Or whatever spell you need. How does giving everyone heroics (if you have access) with one casting from your cohort sound? Improved Init everyone? Oh, and how about sending a nerveskitter through the weave?
Granted this is more effective at higher levels, with more spells to burn on buffs, but still...
War weaver rocks.
So a cohort of that level could give everyone +9 initiative most of the time. As for higher level spells.. who needs mass darkvision when you can war weave regular darkvision? As for other higher level spells... you would have the same level of spells as a sorceror of the same level. But you can hit 4 people per spell slot.
Yes, I know you don't have the int to get everyone in the weave yet, that will come though
War weaver is one of the few non-full casting prestige classes that is actually worth taking.
I am just worried since this is a cohort rather than a PC, so he is both built on less stat points (elite is 25 point buy equivalent, but with less flexibility), and going to be, at best, 2 levels below the Leader PC.
Stonebasher, I did use the 5th level bonus feat for a metamagic feat, either way he is built, since crafting feats are illegal for him.
It's a shame he can't build his own stuff, like a normal PC. After all, he starts at a gold deficit from a normal PC, too.Transmuter Wizard 5/War Weaver 2 version:
Str 10, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 8, Cha 12
HP 36; AC 17 (Greater Mage Armor)
Saves: Fort +5 (rat); Ref +2; Will +6
Skills: Concentration +12, Craft (Weaving) +13, Craft (Alchemy) +9, Knowledge (Arcana) +13, Knowldge (The Planes) +11, Spellcraft +15
Transmuter: 1 extra spell slot for Transmutation spells at each level
Eldritch tapestry: 3 allies, 2nd level spells
Quiescent weaving: 1 spell of 2nd level
Feats: Scribe scroll (free, unusable), Enlarge Spell (War Weaver req), Energy Substitution (Acid), Sculpt Spell, Metamagic School Focus (transmutation), Toughening Transmutation
Items: Masterwork quarterstaff/lesser Rod of Metamagic Extend, 3600 gp for other items, of which 720 gp worth can be consumables.
Spells: All non-Ench/Evo PHB cantrips
1st: Endure Elements, Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Grease, Protection from Evil, Silent Image
2nd: Glitterdust, Invisibility, Rope Trick, See Invisibility
3rd: Dispel Magic, Fly, Haste, Greater Mage Armor
Add the ability to prebuff pretty much everyone who needs say, prot evil, with a single casting is big. Or whatever spell you need. How does giving everyone heroics (if you have access) with one casting from your cohort sound? Improved Init everyone? Oh, and how about sending a nerveskitter through the weave?
heroics cannot be woven. Not (H) or willing target.
War weaver still rocks on a cohort...
And that's without looking at a sublime chord war weaver cheese...
How so? Why SubChord/War Weaver?
-Matt
How so? Why SubChord/War Weaver?
-Matt
FoM in the weave for one...
I find it interesting that the PC's role above is 'striker, ranged' - Its an archer, WE realise that by the order of the bow initiate...
some of us aren't dumb enough to rely on 4th edition roles as determined by WoTc juuust yet
FoM in the weave for one...
I find it interesting that the PC's role above is 'striker, ranged' - Its an archer, WE realise that by the order of the bow initiate...
some of us aren't dumb enough to rely on 4th edition roles as determined by WoTc juuust yet
Is Freedom of Movement worth building a Bard/War Weaver/Sublime Chord? FoM is a 4th level Wizard spell, so it becomes available to the Wizard version of the cohort at 5/3, 8th level, and becomes eligible for the weave at 5/4, 9th level, even without sublime chord...
Especially since a Bard build wouldn't even be able to take War Weaver until 8th level, since Bards don't get 3rd level spells until 7th level... And wouldn't get 4th level spells until Bard 7/War Weaver 4, and would, presumably, only get 1 or 2 levels of Sublime Chord at the very end of the main PC's playability, Bard 7/War Weaver 5/Sublime Chord 2...
And I did specify archer in the leader PC's description as well as using the 4th Ed designation. And I find the 4th ed roles a bit less confusing than trying to figure out the difference, if any, between archer and artillery or tank and light infantry.
Archer only covers bow users, and artillery covers other ranged weapon users? Or is there a minimum damage per attack that qualifies as artillery?
Tank would wear heavier armor than light infantry, I presume, but when my archer goes melee, which he sometimes has to, does he qualify for being light infantry in that circumstance? Mithril chain shirt, improved buckler defense, longsword or morningstar used two-handed, fighter class. Or would the Barbarian dip, which improves his base speed, make him light cavalry, since he is faster moving then a typical infantryman?
I would assume that, although he can cast a few divine spells from Pious Templar, that he wouldn't/shouldn't be classified as a Divine Caster.
Is Freedom of Movement worth building a Bard/War Weaver/Sublime Chord? FoM is a 4th level Wizard spell, so it becomes available to the Wizard version of the cohort at 5/3, 8th level, and becomes eligible for the weave at 5/4, 9th level, even without sublime chord...
FAIRLY sure Freedom of Movement is in fact, a bard/cleric/druid spell.
It is most definitely NOT a Wizard spell, and is amazing in the weave.
and in reference to the striker thing, I was only joking, I hate being told what my PC is, I like being able to create that for myself, and have options - hence irritated that in 4th edition I am limited to the 20 or so options they have, rather than the dearth of available things one could do even in the basic 3 books of 3.5.
Also I can't stand 4th edition jargon, its very MMORG... soon the monsters will be 'mobs' etc. (note I will still play it, but I just don't like the system.. YET.)
FAIRLY sure Freedom of Movement is in fact, a bard/cleric/druid spell.
It is most definitely NOT a Wizard spell, and is amazing in the weave.
Also I can't stand 4th edition jargon, its very MMORG... soon the monsters will be 'mobs' etc. (note I will still play it, but I just don't like the system.. YET.)
FoM is Bard, Cleric, Druid, Luck & Ranger. Luck, of course, adds the possibility to add it to a Wizard's list by careful use of Knowledge (Religion) and the Arcane Disciple feat with the correct choice of deity, Uvot for example. Main issue would be the need for a Wisdom of 14+ to use the spells, per the feat description. Swap the Charisma and Wisdom scores, which would also help the Will save, and a Periapt of Wisdom +2, and there ya go...
As to calling them mobs, that isn't much different than the various terms already in use or from the past: mooks, minions, cannon fodder, and the ever popular "Fresh meat!"
How so? Why SubChord/War Weaver?
-Matt
The reasons to build a warweaver with bard casting are basically the nice weave-worthy spells on the bard list - Greater Heroism, Freedom of Movement, all the Cure spells, Harmonic Chorus. Bardic music is also nice. The reason to use sublime chord is that any CL loss before entering Sublime Chord gets mostly ignored - you still get full sublime chord progression. Song of Arcane Power is also pretty good.
If you don't care about low-level bard spells or bardic music but do want the sublime chord progression, bard 1 / marshal 1 / wizard 5 / warweaver 5 / sublime chord 1 (not in that order) is a decent way to go - you end up with wizard 8 + sublime chord 3 spellcasting at L13, so if you choose you can have the cohort providing heroes' feast and woven greater heroism + greater invis + freedom of movement + cure critical wounds, plus a marshal aura. I really wanted woven harmonic chorus for my sorcerer's cohort (she frequently plays with all-caster tables), so he casts as a bard 4 + wizard 5 + sublime chord 3 and doesn't have the marshal aura (although he does get song of arcane power).
Note though that sublime warweavers only really come together at L12-13. I wouldn't recommend it for someone making a L7 cohort.
If you have PHB2, you might consider Beguiler. That lets you eventually weave FoM + Greater Invis if you go the warweaver route, and also gives you a cohort with trapfinding. Their high-level spell list is a bit lacklustre, but at L7 they're pretty neat. They also work well with Arcane Disciple - that's also a good feat for a wizard cohort in many situations.
(For what it's worth, I have two L15 characters who took Leadership as their L15 feat: the dervish has a L13 wizard / warweaver / fatespinner cohort, while the sorcerer has the above-mentioned L13 bard / wizard / warweaver / sublime chord. Warweaver cohorts are kind of addictive.)
If you have PHB2, you might consider Beguiler. That lets you eventually weave FoM + Greater Invis if you go the warweaver route, and also gives you a cohort with trapfinding. Their high-level spell list is a bit lacklustre, but at L7 they're pretty neat. They also work well with Arcane Disciple - that's also a good feat for a wizard cohort in many situations.
The main (and major) problem with a Beguiler/War Weaver cohort is that Craft is not a Beguiler class skill, which means that he can't become a War Weaver until he is 10th level as a Beguiler. 6 ranks in a cross class skill is a painful deal.
Nice as the Extend Rod is, I'd go with teh Headbandof Intellect first if you can. Actually with the gp limitations you might want to buy that with the primary PC; thought he Extend is more liekly to be useful when there isn't room for your cohort at the table.
My primary PC has some serious gp costs lined up that he has to get to in the near future. Gloves of Dexterity, for one fairly important item. The Force weapon enhancement for his bow for another.
And, in the semi-optional area, is the idea of adding some useful enhancements on his armor, including Swarmguard, Durable and possibly Restful.
That, and he keeps burning gp for non-inventory things like retraining. The same feat too many times. Oh, well, the only retraining left to do is to exchange Woodland Archer for Leadership the next time I level.
And, yes, I would love to get that Extend for my primary PC as well, if only to be able to lend it out to a real spellcaster at the same table. Access limitations keep nickel & dimeing me to death.
The reasons to build a warweaver with bard casting are basically the nice weave-worthy spells on the bard list - Greater Heroism, Freedom of Movement, all the Cure spells, Harmonic Chorus. Bardic music is also nice. The reason to use sublime chord is that any CL loss before entering Sublime Chord gets mostly ignored - you still get full sublime chord progression. Song of Arcane Power is also pretty good.
Ok, so nothing really over the top. Just wondering.
The problems I can see with doing Wizard and Sublime Chord with War Weaver as a cohort:
-You cut yourself off at 6th-level spells, with a very small spells known list.
-You have to build up two stats: Intelligence and Charisma. With a 15 and 14 between them, even with three stat bumps to raise both to 16, you're still looking at 32K in stat boost items just to get both stats to 20 in order to weave five allies. A 13th-level cohort gets 35K in equipment. Not good.
-Lots of skill points dedicated to meeting those Sublime Chord requirements.
If the primary PC is a high-level arcanist, I can see the specialist Sublime Chord working. (I'd rather see a high-level arcanist take something more missing-role-filling as a cohort, but that's beside the point.) But the OP's PC isn't, and the SubChord/Wiz/WarWeaver would be too specialized to fulfill its purpose as arcane.
I say just go with the Wizard/Warweaver build. You'll probably have to skip Freedom of Movement, as you'll want your cohort's 15 to go to Intelligence, and the 14 to go to Constitution, so his Wisdom won't be high enough to get it through Arcane Disciple (sure, he can purchase a Periapt, but that A) costs more money and B) takes up the Amulet of Health slot.).
-Matt enjoys his Cleric cohort.
That, and he keeps burning gp for non-inventory things like retraining. The same feat too many times. Oh, well, the only retraining left to do is to exchange Woodland Archer for Leadership the next time I level.
You know, you might also want to consider just skipping Leadership in the first place. Here's why:
You've got 8 Charisma and a +2 to Leadership from Great Renown. If you look at the Leadership table on DMG page 106, your LVL+1 Leadership score is going to stop being sufficient right about... Level 10. Your cohort is going to fall behind the Level-2 curve, unless you start investing in Cloaks of Charisma.
And like you said, nickel and dimed.
-Matt
If you're an archer, you're likely looking for: Greater Magic Weapon, Heroism, and Flame Arrow for long-duration buffs (10 min/level or longer). Those are also all 3rd-level spells for a wizard.
In combat, until you have Boots of Speed, you probably want Haste on the first action.
If your cohort takes Arcane Disciple for whichever domain provides Recitation, your party will probably be happy with Recitation 1/day.
In the meantime, it's worth considering how few hit points a wizard cohort is likely to have, and unless you have an objection, it's probably best to look for the services of a dwarf or gnome. And giving the cohort the chance to ignore Reflex save damage, with Moment of Prescience, is worth the feat.
Dwarf Transmuter 5/Divine Oracle 2
STR 10
DEX 12
CON 15 (16 with 8th level bump)
INT 15 (16 with 4th level bump)
WIS 14
CHA 6
Feats: Improved Initiative, Arcane Disciple (x domain), Extend Spell, Metamagic School Focus (transmutation)
Metamagic School Focus will allow you to Extend 3 transmutation spells/day without a level bump: Flame Arrow and Haste are good bets to start.
(Personally, I'd go with an Enchanter myself.)
4th level spells should be battlefield control: Wall of Fire, Wall of Stone, Solid Fog, Evard's Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, etc.
You know, you might also want to consider just skipping Leadership in the first place. Here's why:
You've got 8 Charisma and a +2 to Leadership from Great Renown. If you look at the Leadership table on DMG page 106, your LVL+1 Leadership score is going to stop being sufficient right about... Level 10. Your cohort is going to fall behind the Level-2 curve, unless you start investing in Cloaks of Charisma.
And like you said, nickel and dimed.
-Matt
Yeah, I was thinking about that, too, and it comes into the trade-off range. We have another convention coming up at the end of October, which has a chance, like last year, of being a border con, I might get a chance at more points from Great Renown, which would negate the need for a cloak of charisma.
Then again, if the con is basically going to be the local area's start to LFR gaming, I might just consider that my PC is not likely to get too many more games in, especially without being likely to get killed, and go for the Leadership for the short term.
This Saturday, we have an ADP module, APL8, with a table which calculates out to a solid APL6.
Archer 8; light infantry 6; tank 6 (with a dog); rogue 6; and medic/support 6. 32 levels, 5 PCs, 6.2, +1 for the dog, for 7.2. And some divine spellcasting, but a lack of non-UMD arcane, it looks like. Since my PC is the only one that is actually "at level", I am not holding out high hopes for our ultimate survival. After all, at this level, opponents have to be built with an eye out for the effects of things like Haste and such. Nonetheless, any cohort has a limited lifespan in terms of how many mods it gets to play. Mine's up to 7 mods. That's been plenty to justify the feat buy as well as the investment in an Ioun stone for the Charisma.
If you already know you're going to get to play your cohort for a while, I say go for it. If you need to buy a CHA item to upgrade your cohort later, do it.
Otherwise, you can do as I have and simply play with a cohort 1 level behind the maximum progression who is *still* a solid contributor to the table.
I'd recommend that you build your cohort with the following questions in mind: 1) what long-term buffs do we need in place? 2) in combat, which buffs do we need cast *right now*? 3) if combat goes an additional round beyond the first, what else is my cohort going to do?
If you're an archer, you're likely looking for: Greater Magic Weapon, Heroism, and Flame Arrow for long-duration buffs (10 min/level or longer). Those are also all 3rd-level spells for a wizard.
In combat, until you have Boots of Speed, you probably want Haste on the first action.
If your cohort takes Arcane Disciple for whichever domain provides Recitation, your party will probably be happy with Recitation 1/day.
(Personally, I'd go with an Enchanter myself.)
I agree, since my archer doesn't have boots of speed, nor current access to them, haste is high on my cast early list. To be honest, it is such a useful spell that, until every weapon combatant in the group has the boots, it is still worth having. Those extra attacks can really stack up.
Flame arrow is nice, as is sonic weapon. 10 minute per level buffs are nice, but sort of hard to decide when to use, since it can be hard to forecast when a combat encounter will start. Hourly & daily buffs are easier to manage, in many ways.
Recitation is not on the Open spell list. Would he need access to it, or does it come with taking the Purification domain, even if only for the domain spell slot?
I am not against a non-human cohort, but I would need to be convinced of the utility of it. That extra feat can be useful.
Also, what would be the advantages of having my cohort as an Enchanter instead of a Transmuter?
Also, why Divine Oracle instead of War Weaver?
At present, the cohort would fill in several weaknesses I see locally: Arcane buffs tend to be a bit thin on the ground (Haste, Endure Elements, Enlarge Person, Pro Evil), there doesn't seem to be anyone at my level with any way to handle an invisible opponent (See Invisibility, Glitterdust), safe "on site" resting (Rope Trick), mobility (Fly), just for starters. One of the benefits of running a Wizard instead of a Sorceror is being able to add almost any spell to his available list in the future.
For actions past the first round, he has Glitterdust, Grease and Dispel Magic, at present. Also Invisibility, to increase his personal chances of survival, although Mirror Image might be a better bet...
One of the reasons I put up his proposed spell list is to get feedback on what spells he should be guaranteed to have at start.
The problem with Arcane Disciple is that I really can't justify, for human or the Int bonus elf, putting a stat higher than 12 in Wisdom, necessitating getting him a periapt of wisdom +2 to use Recitation or higher level spells from his domain.
Then again, I am still trying to figure out why the source that recommended it originally, recommended putting the 12 in Charisma, anyhow.
This Saturday, we have an ADP module, APL8, with a table which calculates out to a solid APL6.
Math there is actually a bit wrong, the CR of combat critters gets addded in prior to dividing by the number of PCs at the table.
8+6+6+6+6+1(dog)=33
33/5=6.6
I agree, since my archer doesn't have boots of speed, nor current access to them, haste is high on my cast early list. To be honest, it is such a useful spell that, until every weapon combatant in the group has the boots, it is still worth having. Those extra attacks can really stack up.
Flame arrow is nice, as is sonic weapon. 10 minute per level buffs are nice, but sort of hard to decide when to use, since it can be hard to forecast when a combat encounter will start. Hourly & daily buffs are easier to manage, in many ways.
You have to do the best you can to guess when it's appropriate to use the spells. A Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend will go a long way, though. An Extended Flame Arrow (CL 7) lasts 140 minutes. If you're about to go into a dungeon, you cast it. If you see signs of danger, you cast it. Etc. But you're right; you won't always have your prebuffs cast ahead of time.
Recitation is not on the Open spell list. Would he need access to it, or does it come with taking the Purification domain, even if only for the domain spell slot?
Recitation is open. It's a cleric spell. Your wizard would get it with Arcane Disciple, Purification domain. It would still take a normal slot. You don't get a "domain slot" with Arcane Disciple, just the ability to take the spells.
I am not against a non-human cohort, but I would need to be convinced of the utility of it. That extra feat can be useful.
Dwarf gives +1 hit point per level, +2 saves versus spells and spell-like abilities, and darkvision. A human cohort would get an extra feat, but if I was making a wizard cohort to play up, I'd probably end up giving him/her Improved Toughness, which would put the cohort behind the dwarf in every way.
Also, what would be the advantages of having my cohort as an Enchanter instead of a Transmuter?
The primary advantage is that you could take Unsettling Enchantment (from Complete Mage), and though it's unlikely stuff would fail your cohort's save DCs (since no effort's going into boosting them), you could use Distract Assailant (swift cast) to give one target -2 penalties for a round.
But since Good Hope is Bard only (didn't have books open earlier), the spell options aren't quite as good as I'd thought at 4th and 5th levels. 4th would be Extended Heroism, and 5th would be... Who knows? Mind Fog?
Unsettling Enchantment is great, but the other options seem to favor Transmuter. I may recant.
Also, why Divine Oracle instead of War Weaver?
Divine Oracle gives full spell progression, a d6 hit die, and Prescient Sense (evasion for casters). War Weaver's a great class; make no mistake. But it remains *incredibly* difficult to trump full spell progression, even for a cohort who begins behind the curve.
At present, the cohort would fill in several weaknesses I see locally: Arcane buffs tend to be a bit thin on the ground (Haste, Endure Elements, Enlarge Person, Pro Evil), there doesn't seem to be anyone at my level with any way to handle an invisible opponent (See Invisibility, Glitterdust), safe "on site" resting (Rope Trick), mobility (Fly), just for starters. One of the benefits of running a Wizard instead of a Sorceror is being able to add almost any spell to his available list in the future.
For actions past the first round, he has Glitterdust, Grease and Dispel Magic, at present. Also Invisibility, to increase his personal chances of survival, although Mirror Image might be a better bet...
One of the reasons I put up his proposed spell list is to get feedback on what spells he should be guaranteed to have at start.
Sounds like you've got a good list to start. However, your 3rd level slots are at a premium. You can use 4th level slots (if the caster gets full progression) to extend a lot of your 3rd level spells (Flame Arrow, Heroism, etc.), but even so, spells like Dispel Magic, which require a Caster Level check (at which your cohort is handicapped) might not be the best options.
Essentially, you're going to have to look for 2 schools with spells you can afford to drop: The schools that have the fewest spells that go on your list of "spells I want my cohort to cast." So far, it sounds like you've got Evocation and Necromancy banned.
The problem with Arcane Disciple is that I really can't justify, for human or the Int bonus elf, putting a stat higher than 12 in Wisdom, necessitating getting him a periapt of wisdom +2 to use Recitation or higher level spells from his domain.
Then again, I am still trying to figure out why the source that recommended it originally, recommended putting the 12 in Charisma, anyhow.
Recitation is just a really, really nice spell to have. If you think it's worth a feat to cast it once or twice a day (3rd and 4th level slots), then take the feat. If not, don't.
Math there is actually a bit wrong, the CR of combat critters gets addded in prior to dividing by the number of PCs at the table.
8+6+6+6+6+1(dog)=33
33/5=6.6
You are right, which actually means that we are going to have even more of a deficit than I thought we had. I knew the dog wasn't going to be worth much, even if it is a "special" dog, rather than just a standard riding dog, so maybe +2, so 34, maybe, giving an APL party of 6.8 going into an APL 8 adapted adventure.
Eek!You have to do the best you can to guess when it's appropriate to use the spells. A Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend will go a long way, though. An Extended Flame Arrow (CL 7) lasts 140 minutes. If you're about to go into a dungeon, you cast it. If you see signs of danger, you cast it. Etc. But you're right; you won't always have your prebuffs cast ahead of time.
Yeah, but the only Extend rod I am sure of having access to at the time costs 3600 gp, and is also a masterwork quarterstaff. Means that a periapt of wisdom or headband of intellect, as an example, are outside his means.
Recitation is open. It's a cleric spell. Your wizard would get it with Arcane Disciple, Purification domain. It would still take a normal slot. You don't get a "domain slot" with Arcane Disciple, just the ability to take the spells.
Missed it the first time I looked at open spells, but this time I found it. Oy. Blind. And Arcane casters don't get a domain slot as an extra slot, they just get to use a single spell slot per level for domain spells, per the feat.
Dwarf gives +1 hit point per level, +2 saves versus spells and spell-like abilities, and darkvision. A human cohort would get an extra feat, but if I was making a wizard cohort to play up, I'd probably end up giving him/her Improved Toughness, which would put the cohort behind the dwarf in every way.
That's where I would tend to use Invisibility and maybe Expeditious Retreat to get the cohort away form the rest of the party after the Weave spells are done. And a Transmutation spell in the weave would give him (or someone) a DR/5 magic temporarily during the getaway.
The primary advantage is that you could take Unsettling Enchantment (from Complete Mage), and though it's unlikely stuff would fail your cohort's save DCs (since no effort's going into boosting them), you could use Distract Assailant (swift cast) to give one target -2 penalties for a round.
I see. Something to think about. I was tending to think about leaving the stuff that draws enemy attention to the rest of the party, except when needed to deal with things like enemy invisibility (Glitterdust) and high movement enemies (Grease, which shouldn't negate the Invisibility when cast on an area)
Unsettling Enchantment is great, but the other options seem to favor Transmuter. I may recant.
I just like to know more about the alternatives. I haven't played many spellcasters in 3.0 or 3.5.
Divine Oracle gives full spell progression, a d6 hit die, and Prescient Sense (evasion for casters). War Weaver's a great class; make no mistake. But it remains *incredibly* difficult to trump full spell progression, even for a cohort who begins behind the curve.
I just am not sure it is worth burning a feat (skill focus knowledge (religion)) for, as this character, like all too many, is going to be chronically short of feats. War Weaver only requires one skill addition, and a high Int gives a bunch of skill points.
Sounds like you've got a good list to start. However, your 3rd level slots are at a premium. You can use 4th level slots (if the caster gets full progression) to extend a lot of your 3rd level spells (Flame Arrow, Heroism, etc.), but even so, spells like Dispel Magic, which require a Caster Level check (at which your cohort is handicapped) might not be the best options.
True, I forgot the check in Dispel Magic. Maybe another 4th level spell would be a better choice, or even filling in a lower level spell that is missing to start with. Flame Arrow or Greater Magic Weapon, for example.
Essentially, you're going to have to look for 2 schools with spells you can afford to drop: The schools that have the fewest spells that go on your list of "spells I want my cohort to cast." So far, it sounds like you've got Evocation and Necromancy banned.
Actually, from the source I was using, the recommendation was to ban Evocation & Enchantment. Should I give up NEcromancy instead of Enchantment? False Life is a useful spell for a lower level cohort to have...
Recitation is just a really, really nice spell to have. If you think it's worth a feat to cast it once or twice a day (3rd and 4th level slots), then take the feat. If not, don't.
Yeah, I'll have to think about it.
Actually, from the source I was using, the recommendation was to ban Evocation & Enchantment. Should I give up NEcromancy instead of Enchantment? False Life is a useful spell for a lower level cohort to have...
Enchantment's one really useful spell for a caster who isn't full progression with tweaked saves is heroism. And it really is a good spell.
When it gets to the point of all your PCs having them, and everyone having one, they become less about a character decision and more a 'what's optimal' decision.
I would go with a cohort that makes sense for your PC. I know my Pirate had a Ship's mage cohort, who had feats in aquatic spellcasting etc.
*Metz imagines a table where two people turn up with cohorts and they are the exact same*
I think the different but effective cohorts are the best. I know of about 7 warweaver bard cohorts now, and frankly its getting to the point where its unoriginal (not maligning copper here, she probably had the original one)
I think the different but effective cohorts are the best. I know of about 7 warweaver bard cohorts now, and frankly its getting to the point where its unoriginal (not maligning copper here, she probably had the original one)
At this point in time, I am strongly leaning toward the Transmuter/War Weaver for my PC's cohort.
Main issue at this time is item purchases, with only 7,200 gp, and no ability to craft, as his funding.
The quarterstaff/lesser extend rod looks really good, but it is quite a bite, at 3,600 gp, or half his total funding.
That would sink any possibility, at least at first, for him to get a stat booster.
Then again, a vest of resistance +1 and a ring of protection +1 might be a good use of money, leaving him 600 gp for scrolls and such.
Spell list:
Replace Dispel Magic with Flame Arrow.
Exchange Invisibility for Sonic Weapon.
—— 0-Level Spells (Cantrips) ——
Acid Splash
Arcane Mark
Detect Magic
Detect Poison
Disrupt Undead
Ghost Sound
Mage Hand
Mending
Message
Open/Close
Prestidigitation
Read Magic
Repair Minor Damage
Resistance
Touch of Fatigue
—— 1st-Level Spells ——
Endure Elements
Enlarge Person
Expeditious Retreat
Feather Fall
Grease
Protection from Evil
Silent Image
—— 2nd-Level Spells ——
Glitterdust
Rope Trick
See Invisibility
Sonic Weapon
—— 3rd-Level Spells ——
Flame Arrow
Fly
Haste
Mage Armor, Greater
Feats:
Enlarge Spell
Energy Substitution (Acid)
Sculpt Spell
Metamagic School Focus (Transmutation)
Toughening Transmutation
As good as the warweaver/sublime cord/bard cohort IS.
When it gets to the point of all your PCs having them, and everyone having one, they become less about a character decision and more a 'what's optimal' decision.
*Matt still cannot figure out how one of those is optimal.*
-Matt
*Matt still cannot figure out how one of those is optimal.*
At higher levels than I am looking at, I am sure that it can be useful. FoM puts the lockdown on a number of high level spells and abilities, like Evard's Black Tentacles. Not sure how it works with a regular grapple, though...
This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.
The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled. The freedom of movement spell does not, however, allow water breathing.
Just looked it up, and I wish I had known how it worked during my last module. It would have greatly helped when I got grappled. Then again, my PC got 10 rounds of FoM to use at will, and has only used 2 of them during an underwater adventure. Don't ask what an Archer was doing in a water-based module. Or two or three ot more...
At higher levels than I am looking at, I am sure that it can be useful. FoM puts the lockdown on a number of high level spells and abilities, like Evard's Black Tentacles. Not sure how it works with a regular grapple, though...
It wins at the ways it suggested. It doesn't help you to pin someone, but defensively its an auto win situation.
There are several spells that just win or shut down a MASSIVE range of abilities that are thrown at you:
Heroes Feast (immune to fear and poison)
FoM (Immune to grapple/solid fog, evards, etc)
Death Ward (great spell, terrible duration though, if you have access Mass Death Ward = win)
Greater Invisibility (not enough monsters have true seeing/blindsight
Freedom of movement is a REALLY good spell. And its easy to get now with stuff like heart spells and all the under priced MIC items. (A ring of it is amazing though, I know several fighters who have them because they are just so fantastic)
In a party lacking arcane, the party needs buffs less than it needs arcane utility, especially battlefield control and mobility. The war-weaver build is going to sacrifice two or three 4th-level spell slots in order to put heroism, protection from evil, resist energy and/or bull's strength/cat's grace/etc. on everyone in the party.
Certainly, those are great options, but they're nothing like splitting the bad guys (no save) with a solid fog, buying your party a couple of rounds to focus on one of the baddies before the others get out of the fog.
Or having the Dim Door when a baddie splits your party with multiple Walls of Force in an enclosed space, leaving only one party member to fight the entire fight alone.
The war-weaver builds people have been throwing around are great builds, but they've been created for parties that already have arcane... lots and lots of arcane, in fact. The bard keeps coming up in the war-weaver build because the primary characters are arcane casters who want Harmonic Chorus in the weave.
I've played several games with Copper's cohort, both as player and as DM; it's a great cohort. BUT it doesn't fill a missing party role. It augments all the existing PCs.
If you want to FILL a missing role, you need a cohort dedicated to that role, not partially dedicated, then veering off (losing caster levels) in order to learn new tricks.
You need a generalist arcanist. Ranged damage isn't a priority, especially since the PC with leadership does ranged damage. You also a need a cohort that's good NOW, and not way down the line.
Overall, I'd recommend a conjurer. Don't specialize in summoning, look at all the other conjuration spells, like grease and glitterdust.
Take sculpt spell, it's incredible, and useable at low levels.
(40' grease as 2nd level? Yes please)
I'd skip the rod of extend, and focus on pearls of power, and a +2 stat bump item (or more). You can cover a lot with good cohort spells, like mage armor, false life, etc.
Always have that 10% invested in scrolls, those can go a long way.
Don't overlook the power of flame arrow, along with the already mentioned haste and sonic weapon.
You need a generalist arcanist. Ranged damage isn't a priority, especially since the PC with leadership does ranged damage. You also a need a cohort that's good NOW, and not way down the line.
Overall, I'd recommend a conjurer. Don't specialize in summoning, look at all the other conjuration spells, like grease and glitterdust.
Okay, generalist or conjurer? If conjurer, which two schools should be banned? And why conjurer instead of transmuter?
Take sculpt spell, it's incredible, and useable at low levels.
(40' grease as 2nd level? Yes please)
A few posts back I put in the current feat list, which included Sculpt Spell.
I'd skip the rod of extend, and focus on pearls of power, and a +2 stat bump item (or more). You can cover a lot with good cohort spells, like mage armor, false life, etc.
You think casting 2 or 3 more 1st level spells is worth losing the ability to double the duration of 3 spells? +2 Int, 2 PoP1s, ~720 gp for scrolls, ~480 for other adventuring supplies.
Always have that 10% invested in scrolls, those can go a long way.
Any scroll spells recommended?
Don't overlook the power of flame arrow, along with the already mentioned haste and sonic weapon.
Same post showing his feats shows his current known spell list, and it includes all 3 of these spells.
Along with the feat Energy Substitution (Acid), although acid isn't set in stone...
Also, it is not that we are totally arcaneless, simply that there seems to be a lot of concentration locally, at these levels, in fighter-types.
I think War Weaver is good enough to use but I'd definitely do it with a Wizard base. You'll be putting Fly through the weave pretty soon.
Do you have access to Elf Generalist Wizard? -if so I'd do that.
Is there something I am missing?
Elf, open access
Wizard, open access
Generalist is the "default" type of Wizard...
Otherwise, I am confused...
So, Gray Elf Wizard, non-specialist, is that what you would be recommending?
No, it's an alternate class feature from Races of the Wild.
Doesn't sound familiar, but I will check when I get home later. Much later.
Doesn't sound familiar, but I will check when I get home.
I can assure you I did not make it up
I can assure you I did not make it up
Sorry, that wasn't what I was implying. I meant that it didn't sound like anything I had found access to, but that my memory was bad enough I had forgotten the War Weaver access, so I wouldn't say I didn't have access until I had had a chance to check my character's ARs when I got home from work, which is where I was.
I have, now, reached home, and checked my PC's ARs, and, as far as I could see, he does not yet have access to the Elf Generalist alternative class feature from RoW.
That isn't to say that it might not be provided on one of the ARs along the way to 9th level. I am expecting a single AR tomorrow for a 2 round ADP adventure, and I really don't think it likely to be on that AR, since it is a Year 6 ADP.
Then again, I built a variant of the Wizard/War Weaver as a gray elf, with a Headband of Intellect +2, and he can pretty much weave in the whole party, himself + 5 allies, with a 20 Int; base 15, +2 from race, +1 at 4th, +2 from the headband.
I thought you might have access because it appears on at least one AR alongside War Weaver.
No, that AR gives access to Combat Medic, Dread Commando or War Weaver, along with a list of feats, spells, and items to choose from, all from Heroes of Battle.
There were a few nice choices, but nothing that stood out enough to make me want it for my PC in the 16 ARs since. Heh.
The same holds true for the other favor on that same AR, which gives a list of feats and spells from Frostburn, although one of them might be useful for my cohort. Conjure Ice Beast, for example.
Access items:
PrCs:
Bonded Summoner (fire elemental only)
Church Inquisitor (priests of Pholtus only)
Dread Pirate
Frostrager
Legendary Captain
Master of Masks
Mindbender
Scarlet Corsair
Shadowbane Stalker
Spymaster
Stormcaster
Feats:
Altitude Adaptation
Beckon the Frozen
Blazing Berserker
Block Arrow
Cold Endurance
Cold Focus
Cold Spell Specialization
Coordinated Shot
Expert Swimmer
Fiery Mage
Fiery Spell
Frostfell Prodigy
Frozen Berserker
Frozen Magic
Great Captain
Greater Cold Focus
Ice Harmonics
Icy Calling
Improved Cold Endurance
Mountaineer
Old Salt
Piercing Cold
Ready Shot
Sailor's Balance
Sea Legs
Searing Spell
Shield Wall
Ship's Mage
Snowcasting
Snowflake Wardance
Snowrunner
Storm Mage
Winter's Mount
Spells:
Body Blaze (w/s3)
Control Currents
Detect Ship
Favorable Wind
Parboil (w/s4)
Parching Touch (w/s1)
Roar of the Wind
Siren's Call
Steed of the Seas
Wake Trailing
Wall of Magma (w/s5)
One Frostburn spell (loooong list)
Access to a scroll of Summon Familiar for an Ice Mephit
Did I mention that I am from the Pale? So Pale, NMR, Nyrond and Core/Adapteds are where all my access comes from.
The main (and major) problem with a Beguiler/War Weaver cohort is that Craft is not a Beguiler class skill, which means that he can't become a War Weaver until he is 10th level as a Beguiler. 6 ranks in a cross class skill is a painful deal.
That's not quite true. Both Divine Oracle and Ruathar have Craft as a class skill. So you do something like this:
Human
1: Skill Focus(Know: Religion)
1: Well-Read(feat that makes all knowledge skills class skills)
3: Enlarge Spell(or whatever the name of it is)
6: Arcane Disciple(Healing)
9: Arcane Disciple(Community, Purification, whatever really works for you in terms of your overall party's needs)
12: Empower Spell
You enter Divine Oracle at 6th and War Weaver at 7th. Mage Armor, Spider Climb, Invisibility, Displacement, Freedom of Movement, Greater Invis, the various Cure X spells - I've found myself combining Displacement and Greater Invis into the weave. Lots of mods seem to be anticipating Greater Invis, but not Displacement.
You desperately want an Ioun Stone +2 to Wisdom and/or Owlfeather Armor from MIC. Ruathar is better, especially if you're higher level, because then you can get rid of Skill Focus and replace it with Augment Healing by shuffling around the feats. My Paladin of Al'Akbar has one of these - she can Empower Augmented CSW into the Weave.
The huge advantage of the Beguiler, although its spell list is more limited, is that it has enough spontaneous spells to keep casting into the Weave all day. And if you do it carefully, you can maintain the skills Search, Disable Device, and a couple of others. And if you've played a Beguiler for several levels like I have, you know how to tweak the spells properly - Zone of Silence is a killer spell that Beguilers get as a 3rd level spell.
I think the different but effective cohorts are the best. I know of about 7 warweaver bard cohorts now, and frankly its getting to the point where its unoriginal (not maligning copper here, she probably had the original one)
CharOpt Board did it originally.
I figured out just how effective it was with cohorts due to the bypassing of level restrictions - basically, you can take the builds that no rational DM would ever allow and use them.
Copper took what I said to her and added the extremely effective harmonic chorus twist.
With a Gray Elf Conjurer/War Wizard, he can Weave 5 allies in, gets 3rd level spells, Sculpt Spell, MSF:Conjuration, and Energy Substitution which works well with the Sonic Weapon/Flame Arrow spells, which a Beguiler wouldn't be able to cast.
Now, if you have some suggestion for an NG deity with the Healing domain available, and some way (is UMD and scrolls it?) for access to weapon enhancement spells, etc.; I would be interested in hearing it.
Looking at the Beguiler/Divine Oracle/War Weaver cohort is interesting, but suffers from a few limitations at the 7th level that this cohort would be at start, including only being able to weave first level spells, not having access to the Healing Domain (Ehlonna is my primary PC's diety, another diety for the cohort would lose some effectiveness for Recitation), and losing several useful feats.
With a Gray Elf Conjurer/War Wizard, he can Weave 5 allies in, gets 3rd level spells, Sculpt Spell, MSF:Conjuration, and Energy Substitution which works well with the Sonic Weapon/Flame Arrow spells, which a Beguiler wouldn't be able to cast.
Now, if you have some suggestion for an NG deity with the Healing domain available, and some way (is UMD and scrolls it?) for access to weapon enhancement spells, etc.; I would be interested in hearing it.
Pelor
(My Beguiler who isn't a War Weaver believes himself a Favored Soul of Pelor - need more converts like him)
Who also has Purification domain. I know Sonic Weapon/Flame Arrow sound interesting, but you need to realize that a War Weaver often runs out of spells, especially in adaptables.
The big two advantages of a Beguiler:
Zone of Silence - without actually silencing the party, you can't be heard. In combo with Invisibility, you can surprise nearly anyone, especially at APL 8-10.
More spells per day - it takes longer to run out. Plus some oddball spells, such as Silence, Freedom of Movement, and Legion of Sentinels(an amazing spell against low Int, low AC monsters - my Beguiler 9 has done more than 100 hp in a round once)
Human Beguiler 5/Divine Oracle 1/War Weaver 1 with Int 18: 6/7/6/4
Gray Elf Wizard (Conjurer) 5/War Weaver 2 with Int 20: 5+1/6+1/5+1/4+1
At 7th level, at least, it looks like the Beguiler loses for number of spell slots, being down one 3rd level slot, but wins for spell flexibility, since he doesn't have to memorize specific spells for each slot, and having all Beguiler spells of the levels castable known is a big bonus.
Some of the missing spells, though, are a big minus. Sonic Weapon, Flame Arrow, Rope Trick, all the stat boosters, just to name a few.
Needing to provide the Beguiler with both an Int booster and a Wis booster is painful. At present, it means that my Pious Templar would have to sacrifice his spells to allow the Beguiler to cast 1 CSW per day. A 7th level cohort only has 7,200 gp to spend, and the stat boosters are 4,000 gp each, and my primary character is, as ever, gold starved. Heh. I manage money badly.
As you mentioned, Zone of Silence, especially if used with an Invisibility Sphere at the right time, can be a real balance-breaker.
Edit: I still have some time before I need to have a finalized cohort, so I have time to look at both builds, and finish fighting Spell Forge to print out the correct version of the Beguiler spell list.
Needing to provide the Beguiler with both an Int booster and a Wis booster is painful. At present, it means that my Pious Templar would have to sacrifice his spells to allow the Beguiler to cast 1 CSW per day. A 7th level cohort only has 7,200 gp to spend, and the stat boosters are 4,000 gp each, and my primary character is, as ever, gold starved. Heh. I manage money badly.
You don't need a Wis booster at lower levels - you only need it when you're capable of casting higher than 3rd or 4th level spells depending on where your Wisdom stat is.
And it isn't just 1 CSW - it is 1 CMW and CLW, too. CLW doesn't sound so great until you realize that a 1st level spell is healing about 48 hp of damage across the party. If you just got hit by a fireball, that goes a long way towards making up for it.
You don't need a Wis booster at lower levels - you only need it when you're capable of casting higher than 3rd or 4th level spells depending on where your Wisdom stat is.
And it isn't just 1 CSW - it is 1 CMW and CLW, too. CLW doesn't sound so great until you realize that a 1st level spell is healing about 48 hp of damage across the party. If you just got hit by a fireball, that goes a long way towards making up for it.
Okay, I was assuming the 12 goes into Wis and the 8 into Cha, since a Beguiler build, otherwise, looks like a Wizard. Str 10, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 12, Cha 8. Or should it have the Dex 12, Wis 13? That would help for that first level...
As a 6th level Beguiler, he gets 3rd level spells, so, with his base Wis, he can't use the CSW since it is 3rd level, and the spells you get through Arcane Disciple, according to the feat write-up, are based on Wis instead of your normal spellcasting attribute.
And, at 7th level, where he comes into play, he'll only be able to weave 1st level spells, so only the single CLW he can cast (again, per the feat write-up, you can only use a single spell slot for your domain spell) will be weavable, and not always of benefit to everyone in the weave, since it still requires that he touch everyone to be affected during the Move action on the same turn he weaves the CLW.
And it assumes that the Beguiler cohort is close enough to touch everyone hit by the fireball, while either not having been hit, or somehow managed to survive the FB damage. All of 43 hit points, but only a pathetic +2 on his Reflex save.
Okay, I was assuming the 12 goes into Wis and the 8 into Cha, since a Beguiler build, otherwise, looks like a Wizard. Str 10, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 12, Cha 8. Or should it have the Dex 12, Wis 13? That would help for that first level...
Why would you put a 13 on Dex? You're not planning to raise it ever and it doesn't give a benefit other than if you get Dex-damaged or drained. Where Wis 13 does help you out.
I'm not entirely sure how the Wizard is doing that much better in that scenario - he's got the same basic reflex save and only 29 hit points...
CharOpt Board did it originally.
I figured out just how effective it was with cohorts due to the bypassing of level restrictions - basically, you can take the builds that no rational DM would ever allow and use them.
Copper took what I said to her and added the extremely effective harmonic chorus twist.
I'll give you credit for pointing out the benefits of wizard levels, Mwao, but I was planning a bard / warweaver / sublime chord well before you entered the discussion :P (I just reread the original thread) It was Snowsong and multi-target Harmonic Chorus that really appealed to me: there aren't many ways to buff spellcasting, and I was looking for a cohort who could supercharge a purely arcane party. It's definitely true that bard / wizard / warweaver / sublime chord works WAY better when you don't need to play it from L1 ;)
The only threads I read on the CO boards about warweaver actually recommended against bard / sublime chord, because of the limited spell slots and the painful early levels. I agree with the "limited spell slots" criticism, by the way: Azrien's cohort was still contributing at full strength at the end of APL 16 Obsidian Citadel only because one of his normal weave spells had been forbidden, he'd borrowed a lot of low-level pearls of power from the four wizards in the party, and he'd been careful about burning bardsongs. At the end of the final encounter, he had one L1 spell and no bardsongs left, and was very glad it WAS the final encounter. That said... that was a pretty long gauntlet of tough combats, he hasn't come close to running out of spells in any games since then.
From what I can see, the primary advantages and disadvantages for the different warweaver base classes are:
- Bard / sublime chord - best caster-buffs in the game, spontaneous casting that can be fuelled with Lyric Spell, best range of choices for spells known // very few base spell slots, limited spells known, doesn't really fill "arcanist" role due to spell-slot limitations
- Wizard - wide-ranging spell list (although lacking some key bard/divine spells), strategic versatility, can adapt spells to party, qualifies for warweaver earliest, works okay with Arcane Disciple // lacks spontaneous casting, needs to pay for and track spellbook
- Sorcerer - wide-ranging spell list to choose from (although lacking key bard/divine spells), spontaneous casting, lots of spell slots // limited spells known, works poorly with Arcane Disciple
- Beguiler - fills trapfinder role as well as arcane, works well with Arcane Disciple, spontaneous casting from a large spell list, good weavable spells including freedom of movement + greater invis (and option to add heroism via advanced learning) // doesn't fill all aspects of "arcanist" role due to spell list limitations, inferior high-level spell list (in my opinion), missing some key buffs at all levels
There's also the LG-specific consideration that bards, sorcerers and (especially) wizards can add NONC spells to their list when you find access, whereas beguilers have a much harder time of it. Otoh, beguilers get some nifty NONC spells for free, that other classes probably won't get to play with.
Going either beguiler or wizard, I'd be very tempted by arcane disciple: my now-retired dervish's cohort was an elf wizard / warweaver / fatespinner / ruathar with Arcane Disciple in Strength, Courage and Competition (woven Valiant Fury, Spell Immunity, and Aid; Heroes' Feast for the party; and Zealot Pact + Fires of Purity + Magic Vestment (to activate greater augment crystals) for the best fighter, who was usually my dervish). She put her 14 in Wis, 13 in Con and 15 in Int, was a grey elf, and did just fine with starting Con 11 - although, to be fair, she had some very silly spell access, including Heart of Earth and Greater Mirror Image. If you're never going to get L6 spells, putting the 13 in Wis (and the 14 in Con) would probably work too, just keep an eye out for ioun stones of Wisdom.
Why would you put a 13 on Dex? You're not planning to raise it ever and it doesn't give a benefit other than if you get Dex-damaged or drained. Where Wis 13 does help you out.
I'm not entirely sure how the Wizard is doing that much better in that scenario - he's got the same basic reflex save and only 29 hit points...
Because the original recommendation put the 13 in Dex. Heh.
The Wizard has a +3, so it isn't much better.
But, since he doesn't have healing spells, he isn't going to be staying in the bulk party area once combat starts. Especially since "his" PC is usually not going to be rushing up like the melee fighters do.On a semi-side note:
The cohort has the same access that the PC has, uses the PC's access when being built. What are the limitations? Can the cohort buy anything the PC has access to, n matter whether the item has Any, Open, Core or regional access? Or is the cohort limited to Any, Open and whatever area the PC was in when they got the level-up that provided the Leadership feat?
The cohort has the same access that the PC has, uses the PC's access when being built. What are the limitations? Can the cohort buy anything the PC has access to, n matter whether the item has Any, Open, Core or regional access? Or is the cohort limited to Any, Open and whatever area the PC was in when they got the level-up that provided the Leadership feat?
I don't know of a clarification on this, which is annoying (one might exist, but I'm not aware of it). If I remember correctly, I just picked starting equipment that was Open, Any access or current Adventure access.
Because the original recommendation put the 13 in Dex. Heh.
The Wizard has a +3, so it isn't much better.
Of course, (a) wizards can also take Arcane Disciple, and (b) a wizard 5 / warweaver 2 can weave Resist Energy if the party's getting pelted by fireballs while in close formation.
At CL6, the beguiler's greatest advantage is probably the ability to Haste the party every combat, along with their trapfinding skills.
What did you choose for Spell Immunity to?
The plan was not to precast it or put it in the quiescent weave, but to keep it in reserve for those combats where the enemy tactic is "spam lots and lots of the same low-mid-level spell" (e.g. multiple fell drain fireballs, at-will unholy blights from lots of little fiends, enervation-spamming sorcerers, encounter traps using metamagicked spells, etc). Unfortunately I only got to play my cohort twice in the eight games my dervish played at L15, and it didn't come up in either one, but it seemed like a nice option to have, as I've seen that sort of combat on a reasonably frequent basis. If I'd been precasting it, I probably would've always gone with Ray of Enfeeblement, maybe Fireball or Enervation depending on party HP / saves and prevalence of Death Ward armor, maybe something else. (My cohort also had Alacritous Cogitation, so if I decided to fill my L5 slots with different spells, I could also pull Spell Immunity into a high-level open slot if needed.)
I don't know of a clarification on this, which is annoying (one might exist, but I'm not aware of it). If I remember correctly, I just picked starting equipment that was Open, Any access or current Adventure access.
That's what I am currently looking at, but it is hard to know what will be current Adventure access until I get to the "I level the next time I play" point. Heh.
Regarding Arcane Disciple: Too many feats, not enough feat slots. Still, something to think about.
Regarding Resist Energy: I am assuming that the cohort starts with the minimum spells for his caster level, which is 3 + original Int mod +2 first level, 4 second level, and 4 third level spells. As a specialist, 2 spells of each level have to be spells from his specialty. Conjurer is a better specialty for use of MSF than Transmuter is. A 1st level Sculpted Grease spell? Nice. Energy Substitution, which is the most likely feat to use on a Transmutation spell, is a no-level change feat, so no use for MSF. And Enlarge Spell is also only a 1 level bump, so that is nice as a potential wash.
Regarding Haste: It is nice, but not essential, although my archer would have been in better shape in the penultimate combat last Game Day if the Bard's player had been awake for the game, and able to maybe use the Haste scroll I provided.
Overall, while the Beguiler build has several of the spells I want my cohort to start with, the level cost of having to take Divine Oracle in order to get Craft (weaving) makes him weaker, at least to start with, as a War Weaver. Major strength: Spell choice on the fly. Major weakness: limited spell choice.
Wizard: Without Alacritous Cogitation (that the correct feat?), he has to pre-choose his spells for the day. Makes for some limitations, if the choices are not the best ones for the circumstances. A strong area is that, after appearance, he can start adding more spells to his spellbook.
So, IMO, the main thing to consider for a Wizard cohort is his initial spell list. The gray elf would have a 17 Int at start, so all/8/4/4 for his initial spell choices, and a limitation that 2 spells of each level must be spells from his specialization, if any.
Conjurer | Transmuter
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Endure Elements | Endure Elements
Expeditious Retreat | Enlarge Person
Feather Fall | Expeditious Retreat
Grease | Feather Fall
Protection from Evil | Grease
Shield | Protection from Evil
Silent Image | Shield
Unseen Servant | Silent Image
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Glitterdust | Glitterdust
Rope Trick | Rope Trick
See Invisibility | See Invisibility
Summon Monster II | Sonic Weapon
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Flame Arrow | Flame Arrow
Fly | Fly
Mage Armor, Greater | Haste
Phantom Steed | Mage Armor, Greater
Haste will be available on scroll, so he can use it or learn it from the scroll, I would think. Same for Enlarge Person. And I think he can add up to 6 spells per adventure to his spellbook.
Conjurer | Transmuter
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Endure Elements | Endure Elements
Expeditious Retreat | Enlarge Person
Feather Fall | Expeditious Retreat
Grease | Feather Fall
Protection from Evil | Grease
Shield | Protection from Evil
Silent Image | Shield
Unseen Servant | Silent Image
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Glitterdust | Glitterdust
Rope Trick | Rope Trick
See Invisibility | See Invisibility
Summon Monster II | Sonic Weapon
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Flame Arrow | Flame Arrow
Fly | Fly
Mage Armor, Greater | Haste
Phantom Steed | Mage Armor, Greater
Based on the above spell selection, War Weaver is a poor choice for the cohort. Why?
Let's look at the weave-legal spells: Fly, Haste, Greater Mage Armor, Protection from Evil, Enlarge Person, Endure Elements, Feather Fall.
Those are the options you currently have available to weave. Of them, only Fly is potentially worth the weave. Haste is already legal for multiple targets, Protection from Evil can work en masse as a Magic Circle, a wizard can Enlarge multiple targets with Mass Enlarge, and by APL 8, PCs had better have better armor than Greater Mage Armor.
Just because people tout the value of the War Weaver doesn't mean it's the best class to fit your needs.
The more I glance at this thread, the more fully I'm convinced that what your table is actually looking for is a BARD. You keep focusing on Bard spells: Haste, Sonic Weapon, Glitterdust, etc. And you keep focusing on having this cohort fulfill not the *arcanist's role* but the *buffer's role.* And there's no better buffer than a BARD.
A 7th level bard with Harmonize (as a 2nd level spell), Inspirational Boost and Haste is going to be able to provide *both* Haste and a +2 bard song every opening round (if you knew in advance that the bard should have Harmonize pre-cast). This is the +3 to hit and +2 to damage with each successful attack that you've been seeking.
Furthermore, at 8th level, the bard's song is going to go to +3, or +4 if you have access to the Badge of Valor, one of the cheapest, most efficient MIC items available (b/c so few people value the bard, I suspect WotC wanted to give it a boost). No archer is going to benefit more from a different boost (until, possibly the point where a wizard can cast Brilliant Energy Weapon) than from this opening round.
Additionally, if your party lacks any skills, the bard has plenty to offer. It splashes well with Marshal should you choose, at some point, to pick up the Motivate Dexterity aura to always go first.
The bard's ability to wear armor and wield a shield reduces the need for Greater Mage Armor, and Extra Music plus Lyric Spell means that your bard gets a lot more spells than you might otherwise expect.
Sample Bard
Human Bard 7
STR 8, DEX 12, CON 13, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 15 (to 16 at 4th)
Feats: 1- Extra Music, Improved Initiative, 3 - Lyric Spell, 6 - Arcane Disciple (Travel)
(11 bardic music/day; Lyric Spell allows you to burn 1 + spell level uses of music to regain a spell: e.g. 3 bardic music to regain Glitterdust, 4 bardic music to regain Haste)
Spells:
0 - whatever
1 - Inspirational Boost, Joyful Noise, Grease, Targeting Ray
2 - Glitterdust, Sonic Weapon, Silence, Mirror Image
3 - Haste, Displacement (or Leomund's Tiny Hut, aka Leomund's Duck Blind)
Travel Domain grants Fly. Or choose a different domain for more buffs: Recitation, etc.
Based on the above spell selection, War Weaver is a poor choice for the cohort. Why?
Let's look at the weave-legal spells: Fly, Haste, Greater Mage Armor, Protection from Evil, Enlarge Person, Endure Elements, Feather Fall.
Those are the options you currently have available to weave. Of them, only Fly is potentially worth the weave. Haste is already legal for multiple targets, Protection from Evil can work en masse as a Magic Circle, a wizard can Enlarge multiple targets with Mass Enlarge, and by APL 8, PCs had better have better armor than Greater Mage Armor.
Enlarge Person isn't actually weaveable (it's not willing-only or harmless). You put Haste in the quiescent weave, to activate it as a move action in the first round - although not as a L2 warweaver, you need to reach L3 in the class in order to weave Haste and Fly. Woven Prot Evil is good because it only takes a L1 spell slot instead of a L3 (and again, it's usually a quiescent weave spell). Resist Energy is a great spell to keep prepped with a warweaver - there's a reason Mass Resist Energy is Closed.
A 7th level bard with Harmonize (as a 2nd level spell), Inspirational Boost and Haste is going to be able to provide *both* Haste and a +2 bard song every opening round (if you knew in advance that the bard should have Harmonize pre-cast).
That seems like a big "if" to me... it's only minutes/level, and bards don't usually have the spell-slots to spam spells on the off-chance an encounter might be coming, the way sorcerers do. Of course, you can start up a bardsong in advance if you think an encounter is coming - depending on your GM, you may be able to keep it up for significantly longer than minutes/level, although it will remove all hope of stealth.
Furthermore, at 8th level, the bard's song is going to go to +3, or +4 if you have access to the Badge of Valor, one of the cheapest, most efficient MIC items available (b/c so few people value the bard, I suspect WotC wanted to give it a boost).
The biggest problem with the Badge of Valor is that it takes the neck slot, i.e. no Con amulet for squishy bard cohort.
No archer is going to benefit more from a different boost (until, possibly the point where a wizard can cast Brilliant Energy Weapon) than from this opening round.
Well, a precast Flame Arrow (10 minutes / level), released quiescent weaving for haste, and standard action sonic weapon, possibly does better (depending on attack bonus). That said, you can't do this yet with only two levels of warweaver, and it's a pretty serious spell expenditure for a wizard at low-mid-levels in any case.
Warweaver doesn't get really good until you have several levels in the class. If your cohort's not going to be L7 for very long, I like wizard/warweaver: if they're going to be L7 for the foreseeable future, bard probably has more immediate payoff (especially if you have access to the masterwork instruments that boost effective bard level by 1 for inspire courage).
Additionally, if your party lacks any skills, the bard has plenty to offer. It splashes well with Marshal should you choose, at some point, to pick up the Motivate Dexterity aura to always go first.
Marshal auras are indeed very nice.
Extra Music plus Lyric Spell means that your bard gets a lot more spells than you might otherwise expect.
Lyric Spells do get fairly expensive in bardic music, but yes, this is a good option if you're playing a bard.
Feats: 1- Extra Music, Improved Initiative, 3 - Lyric Spell, 6 - Arcane Disciple (Travel)
I wouldn't take Arcane Disciple on a bard/sorcerer (although I guess it's better for a bard than a sorc) - it still takes up one of your known-spell slots, but you can only cast it once/day.
Enlarge Person, one of the reasons I need an arcane cohort, is not a Bardic spell.
Their spell selection is, in some ways, worse than a Sorceror, since they get so few spells known per level, and they don't start out able to cast first level spells as a Bard. For a Wizard cohort, they may start with a limited number fo known spells, but can add, immensely, to that list as they play. The spell list my cohort starts with is purely to make sure that he has some utility "out of the box", and is in no way meant to limit his spell list later. After all, he an learn 6 spells after that first adventure, to add to his spellbook.
To compare:
Bard 7th level: 6/4/4/2 - 1 more 3rd level spell known at 8th
Wizard 6th: All PHB/5+Int mod/4/4 - 2 4th level spells at 7th, +6 more spells of any level castable per module
Wizards don't get all the spells available to Bards, but the opposite is true, as well.
Lyric Spell requires 9 ranks in Perform, and 6th level arcane caster, as a prerequisite to take, so 6th level feat, not 3rd. And then only if he takes the Marshal level at 7th level, not any time before.
Domains are limited to those available to an NG diety, and you would need to tell me the diety, as well. I am not, by any means an LG diety expert. My PC is a follower of Ehlonna, and is NG. And my PC's diety os NOT very open to discussion, really. There are very few dieties in LG that meet the needs of my PC: NG and favored weapon Longbow. Due to limitations in cohorts, my cohort also needs to be NG.
Other things of interest: Last mod, we had a Bard along. Last 3 mods, we had a Cleric along. Last appearance of a Wizard/Sorceror: at least 4 mods ago.
My PC's armor is mithril chain shirt +1, so only +5....
Dex-based archer, Barbarian level, already, before gloves, at +4 to AC from Dex...
GMA was mainly for the protection of the cohort, anyhow, although when it becomes weavable, it has some uses for other low armor AC members of the party, too, like the monk or other folk limited to light or no armor....
Bracers of Armor +6 cost 36000 gp, and even a regular chain shirt +2 costs 4,250 gp, assuming no other enhancements (like swarmguard).
BTW, especially for a cohort which is automatically going to be playing up, a Con under 14 is going to be a less-than-optimum thing, which is also why the gray elf wizard/war weaver is problematic. He is extremely fragile, but can already weave the whole party "out of the box".
The 7th level Bard would only have 8 more hit points than the wizard, and the same Fort save. Add-in that he can only cast 1 3rd level spell a day, and he surely cannot spam Haste at every encounter, unless he burns through a bunch of his music uses, and he only has 11 even with Extra Music. Add-in that he either can get a Cloak of Charisma or a +2 chain shirt, and he'll need GMA, too....
Overall, with the limited spell list and presence of other Bards & Clerics, a bardic cohort just doesn't seem to work for me.