Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 stonebasher Apr 16, 2008 15:34:57	Recently I was running through a module. A door was trapped with a backbiter spell. Now, without quoting the exact wording, the spell says "Whenever a creature makes a melee attack and has failed (or fails) their save, the attack is made against their own AC. If it beats their AC, they deal damage as normal to themselves." Well, I was using my portable battering ram to break down the door. The question is, would the backbiter spell trigger when you try and break the door? Is there a significant enough difference between "attacking" the door and "breaking" the door? I didn't die at the door (as the wall was not similarly trapped,) but the question came up, and I was just wondering. Wes
#2 timlagor Apr 16, 2008 17:01:24	There is a difference between "breaking" a door and "attacking" it. The "Break" mechanic is resolved by a Strength Check against a given DC with no effect on the door if you fail. There is no attack roll or damage. Attacking a door is an attempt to sudner it that uses it's AC, HP and Hardness against melee attacks (with non-piercing weapons only). However you hit the door either way and that might trigger the trap. Since the Battering Ram isn't a weapon and doesn't deal damage, it's not an eligible target for the spell and would never trigger the effect of it anyway. The normal question for this spell (for which* there is no official answer incidentally) is whether a non-magic weapon that is being wielded gets a save or not ...but that's not what you asked You also have the text of the spell wrong. It was reprinted in SpC and there is no longer an attack roll (and it can target a lot more weapons). *afaik
#3 stonebasher Apr 16, 2008 17:33:45	There is a difference between "breaking" a door and "attacking" it. The "Break" mechanic is resolved by a Strength Check against a given DC with no effect on the door if you fail. There is no attack roll or damage. Attacking a door is an attempt to sudner it that uses it's AC, HP and Hardness against melee attacks (with non-piercing weapons only). However you hit the door either way and that might trigger the trap. Since the Battering Ram isn't a weapon and doesn't deal damage, it's not an eligible target for the spell and would never trigger the effect of it anyway. The normal question for this spell (for which* there is no official answer incidentally) is whether a non-magic weapon that is being wielded gets a save or not ...but that's not what you asked You also have the text of the spell wrong. It was reprinted in SpC and there is no longer an attack roll (and it can target a lot more weapons). *afaik At work, don't have the SpC on me. And going to get it out of the car, then breaking it out in my cubicle is not going to help anything. Wes
#4 Vamroc Apr 23, 2008 16:25:42	I wouldn't classify a Battering Ram as a "Melee" weapon it can be used in Melee combat but it's not very effective. Primary example a bow can be used to make a melee attacks and it's not a melee weapon either.
#5 timlagor Apr 23, 2008 17:17:52	While it could be used as an improvised weapon it isn't being used as such in this case so Backbiter (which has a very short duration incidentally) doesn't come into play.
#6 evilcouch Apr 24, 2008 6:32:39	The normal question for this spell (for which* there is no official answer incidentally) is whether a non-magic weapon that is being wielded gets a save or not ...but that's not what you asked All attended items are saved by by whoever's "attending" them, unless otherwise specified by the effect. Saving Throws Nonmagical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they always are affected by spells. An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character’s saving throw bonus). Magic items always get saving throws. A magic item’s Fortitude, Reflex, and Will save bonuses are equal to 2 + one-half its caster level. An attended magic item either makes saving throws as its owner or uses its own saving throw bonus, whichever is better.
#7 timlagor Apr 24, 2008 9:46:17	All attended items are saved by by whoever's "attending" them, unless otherwise specified by the effect. You didn't read the spell now did you?
#8 evilcouch Apr 24, 2008 20:06:53	You didn't read the spell now did you? Excuse me? I've read the spell. It's one of my favorite spells because of its creativeness. Magic weapons targeted by this spell receive a Will save. An item in a creature's possession uses its own Will save bonus or its wielder's bonus, whichever is higher. The wording of the spell seems pretty clear to me. The core rules say: Magical attended items get a save. Attended items get a save. The spell description says: Magical attended items get a save. Attended items get a save. By default, all attended items get a save. To negate that requires an explicit entry in a game rule. Since there is no such entry in the spell description for backbiter, they get a save.
#9 magebeast Apr 24, 2008 20:39:10	Excuse me? I've read the spell. It's one of my favorite spells because of its creativeness. The wording of the spell seems pretty clear to me. The core rules say: Magical attended items get a save. Attended items get a save. The spell description says: Magical attended items get a save. Attended items get a save. By default, all attended items get a save. To negate that requires an explicit entry in a game rule. Since there is no such entry in the spell description for backbiter, they get a save. It could also be read as instructing the reader on how the will save for the magic weapon works.
#10 evilcouch Apr 24, 2008 21:41:31	It could also be read as instructing the reader on how the will save for the magic weapon works. That's what I was assuming. Item saving throws are one of the lesser used mechanics in D&D. My take on the text was that it was a reminder on how they work.
#11 magebeast Apr 25, 2008 10:27:33	That's what I was assuming. Item saving throws are one of the lesser used mechanics in D&D. My take on the text was that it was a reminder on how they work. Right, and what a lot of people think is that they're simply reminding you that magic items get the save of the wielder. If the magic item were disarmed or then dropped, it would still get a save, just at its own dinky save bonus.
#12 stonebasher Apr 25, 2008 11:35:14	I wouldn't classify a Battering Ram as a "Melee" weapon it can be used in Melee combat but it's not very effective. Primary example a bow can be used to make a melee attacks and it's not a melee weapon either. Heh, last night I had just broken through the door with the dang battering ram, and full-power attacked a swarm for 33 points of damage, which was entertaining (since I can easily rationalize that you can 2-hand a battering ram, although it would be entertaining if someone posted that this was comepletely illegal since you can only power attack with weapons you are proficient with. Wonder if that's a rule, guess I'll go look it up.) Wes edit: Unless someone wants to argue improvied weapons aren't considered to be in the official category of "weapns-simple, martial, ranged, and exotic," there are no problems. I'll have ot remember to power attack next time I'm hitting somebody with a chair in a bar fight.