Shields that aren't shields - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Shields that aren't shields

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
arvagor
Jul 11, 2008 0:15:19 So, one of my PCs has EWP (manople), a light weapon from Sandstorm. Some relevant text:[INDENT]Manople: [...] A manople gives you a +1 shield bonus to AC. Unlike with a spiked shield, you retain this bonus to AC even on a round in which you make an attack with the manople. If you lack the appropriate Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, you do not retain the shield bonus to AC, as you would with a spiked shield. [...] Like a spiked shield, a manople can be enhanced as a weapon, as a shield, or both, but such enhancements must be paid for and applied separately.[/INDENT]
So far, simple enough; mine is currently +1 all around (+1 as a weapon, +1 as a shield). It also seems pretty clear that shield special abilities like blinding (DMG) or speed (MIC) that simply create magical effects can be added without difficulty (presuming valid access, of course). However, what to do when the special ability's functionality is determined by the state of the shield itself -- i.e. whether the shield is a buckler, light shield, heavy shield, or tower shield?

For example, if I add bashing (DMG) to a shield, the damage dealt is determined by whether the shield is light or heavy (and bashing states that only light and heavy shields can have that ability). Or take heraldic crests from Heroes of Battle - "A heraldic crest is a special magical property that can be placed on any light, heavy, or tower shield with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus."

So for the purposes of abilities such as these, would you consider the manople more like a buckler or a light shield? Or neither, meaning abilities such as those above simply won't function on one?
#2
verenal
Jul 11, 2008 7:18:12 The strict Rules-As-I-Read-Them answer:
Is a manople a heavy shield, a light shield or a tower shield? Didn't think so. If a special ability only works on these kinds of shields you can't add it on a manople.

The not so strict Rules-As-I-Think-They-Should-Be-Read-And-How-You-Might-Want-To-Convince-Your-Judge answer:
Bashing can't be applied to a buckler or a tower shield because you can't make a shield bash with these shields. It would have no effect. A heraldic crest can't be put on a buckler because there's no room for the crest.
A manople resembles a sai with blades, but is actually a gauntlet. A manople shouldn't be able to hold a heraldic crest, but because you can bash with it, it should be able to hold a bashing enchantment.
#3
dkay807
Jul 11, 2008 8:23:53 If the following is truly in the item text:

Like a spiked shield, a manople can be enhanced as a weapon, as a shield, or both, but such enhancements must be paid for and applied separately.

Then I would say you absolutely can apply separate weapon and shield enhancements to the item, including Bashing, Blinding, Vicious, Holy, etc.

I would think that a +1 Bashing Holy Manople's costs (for example) would be calculated as a +1 Bashing Manople (+2 shield equivalent - 4k) plus a +1 Holy Manople (+3 weapon equivalent - 18k) plus whatever masterwork and base item costs apply.

Based on the text above, that would be my interpretation, but I don't have anything to reference at this time, so take it with a grain of salt.
#4
timlagor
Jul 11, 2008 9:01:20 I'd say you could add those enchantments but they would do nothing for you.

I may be misremembering but I believe Bashing woudl be rather pointless in any case.
#5
kinevon
Jul 11, 2008 11:14:05 I would tend to say that offensive shield enhancements wouldn't do much good, since it attacks using the weapon enhancements, so Bashing wouldn't have much value.

Also, since it is a weapon which provides a shield bonus, I would tend toward believing that anything which enhances a shield wouldn't be usable on a manople.

Some other things to think about:

A manople weighs 1 pound. Even a buckler weighs 5 pounds, so a manople wouldn't have much usable area for any sort of banner or heraldic device of note.

IMO, since it is described as a glove, and only has certain shield-like characteristics, it would be limited in what shield enhancements could be used on it, including whether or not you could attach a shield crystal to it. If the enhancement says that it goes on specific shield-types, or requires being put on a shield, it won't go on a manople, since it isn't a shield, it just gives a shield bonus...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 arvagor Jul 11, 2008 0:15:19	So, one of my PCs has EWP (manople), a light weapon from Sandstorm. Some relevant text:[INDENT]Manople: [...] A manople gives you a +1 shield bonus to AC. Unlike with a spiked shield, you retain this bonus to AC even on a round in which you make an attack with the manople. If you lack the appropriate Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, you do not retain the shield bonus to AC, as you would with a spiked shield. [...] Like a spiked shield, a manople can be enhanced as a weapon, as a shield, or both, but such enhancements must be paid for and applied separately.[/INDENT] So far, simple enough; mine is currently +1 all around (+1 as a weapon, +1 as a shield). It also seems pretty clear that shield special abilities like blinding (DMG) or speed (MIC) that simply create magical effects can be added without difficulty (presuming valid access, of course). However, what to do when the special ability's functionality is determined by the state of the shield itself -- i.e. whether the shield is a buckler, light shield, heavy shield, or tower shield? For example, if I add bashing (DMG) to a shield, the damage dealt is determined by whether the shield is light or heavy (and bashing states that only light and heavy shields can have that ability). Or take heraldic crests from Heroes of Battle - "A heraldic crest is a special magical property that can be placed on any light, heavy, or tower shield with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus." So for the purposes of abilities such as these, would you consider the manople more like a buckler or a light shield? Or neither, meaning abilities such as those above simply won't function on one?
#2 verenal Jul 11, 2008 7:18:12	The strict Rules-As-I-Read-Them answer: Is a manople a heavy shield, a light shield or a tower shield? Didn't think so. If a special ability only works on these kinds of shields you can't add it on a manople. The not so strict Rules-As-I-Think-They-Should-Be-Read-And-How-You-Might-Want-To-Convince-Your-Judge answer: Bashing can't be applied to a buckler or a tower shield because you can't make a shield bash with these shields. It would have no effect. A heraldic crest can't be put on a buckler because there's no room for the crest. A manople resembles a sai with blades, but is actually a gauntlet. A manople shouldn't be able to hold a heraldic crest, but because you can bash with it, it should be able to hold a bashing enchantment.
#3 dkay807 Jul 11, 2008 8:23:53	If the following is truly in the item text: Like a spiked shield, a manople can be enhanced as a weapon, as a shield, or both, but such enhancements must be paid for and applied separately. Then I would say you absolutely can apply separate weapon and shield enhancements to the item, including Bashing, Blinding, Vicious, Holy, etc. I would think that a +1 Bashing Holy Manople's costs (for example) would be calculated as a +1 Bashing Manople (+2 shield equivalent - 4k) plus a +1 Holy Manople (+3 weapon equivalent - 18k) plus whatever masterwork and base item costs apply. Based on the text above, that would be my interpretation, but I don't have anything to reference at this time, so take it with a grain of salt.
#4 timlagor Jul 11, 2008 9:01:20	I'd say you could add those enchantments but they would do nothing for you. I may be misremembering but I believe Bashing woudl be rather pointless in any case.
#5 kinevon Jul 11, 2008 11:14:05	I would tend to say that offensive shield enhancements wouldn't do much good, since it attacks using the weapon enhancements, so Bashing wouldn't have much value. Also, since it is a weapon which provides a shield bonus, I would tend toward believing that anything which enhances a shield wouldn't be usable on a manople. Some other things to think about: A manople weighs 1 pound. Even a buckler weighs 5 pounds, so a manople wouldn't have much usable area for any sort of banner or heraldic device of note. IMO, since it is described as a glove, and only has certain shield-like characteristics, it would be limited in what shield enhancements could be used on it, including whether or not you could attach a shield crystal to it. If the enhancement says that it goes on specific shield-types, or requires being put on a shield, it won't go on a manople, since it isn't a shield, it just gives a shield bonus...