Fail by 5, suffer a moderate consequence.
Fail by 10, suffer a sever consequence (die?).
What I have done in D&D games is introduce the aspect of maiming in lieu of instant death. Characters can be scarred, lose limbs, be blinded or deafened or otherwise rendered in a state that makes people queasy when looking at them. They are all effects that can be fixed with existing spells, including ones that otherwise have no real use (regeneration).
I have no problems accepting that some things really are so bad that you die
At least thats the way I stat things that make a big boom.
Back in D&D days,
I hear from my DM our buddy was playing a 12th level mage,
and "Save Or Die" Polymorphed a recurring villan into a fish
.... the villian was a pirate being helped by evil merfolk and this polymorph was done on the deck of his ship.... fish flops overboard into the ocean and runs off with the merfolk
seems it was more of a "Save Or Be Inconvenienced Some"
"Slay Living"?
"Finger of Death"?
Poison?
I can't think of anything for the first two, but poison should be a series of saves with failure bringing you closer and closer to death... mild poisons would be save 1/hour moderate poisons could be save 1/minute, and severe poisons could be 1/round.
-DF
Edit: Bah. That naruk-boy beat me to it by a mile.
I too am wondering just what death effects we are talking about here,
other than just really big scale but standard hurt infliction
Will we have advanced chemowarfare PL7 Makuded contact toxin that is Fort30 or Die,
which goes against the canon of ability damage by time poison?
Now that I think about it, I am thinking specifically of magic effects, and a whole lot of stuff that's in Phoenix, which is sort of unfair to ask you all about. Maybe I should think this through more clearly before I post about it again.
3.5 plug in :
Drop by a game store and look at the Star Wars Saga Conditions Track.
4E : Many save rolls by defender have become attack rolls
4E is full of «effects» attached with «powers». They are used as part on an attack. The power targets either AC, Dext, Wis, Int. If the attack is successfull then X damage + effect (Dazed, prone, etc) are applied. No save allowed at the time you receive the penalty. (there are exceptions) Instead you get to save at the beginning of your nex turn. 10+ removes the effect regardless of character level. Some feat or powers can lower saves below 10+.
In effect this means all characters have 4 different armor classes. Attackers must beat one of them to apply damage + effect. it ensures you remain weak to at least one form of attack regardless of level. A player can't raise all four AC equally. He must choose, with class bonuses, what are his weakness and strenghts.
I also like the 4e stuff. I can see how that would work pretty well. Who rolls what doesn't matter all that much, and the multiple avenues of attack/defence are kindasorta already in 3e (Defence + 3 saves), but the idea that you always get to try to resist the effects after the fact is appealing. Again, it's just about giving the player something to do that feels like participation.
Thanks, dude! Useful suggestions.
dont web/tangle spells allow attempts to get out?
Even when you are on fire, you get to try to become not on fire
One thing I noticed is that have a "save DC" of 18 each round is statistically equivalent (almost) to saying an effect lasts 1d6 rounds. This could be a useful way to make players feel they have more control over their character's fate against effects that have a random duration, while still maintaining something close to the original durations *(by setting the DC at the right value).
I think I'm going to try this round by round save idea, see how it works out in play. I think this could work good on the overall to keep players in the game even if they'd be otherwise debilitated by a "save or go take a nap on the couch" effect, and give character with support effects more use.
Example:
If BigBob fails his will save and gets paralyzed, and MagicMike doesn't have a way to remove it but DOES have something to give BigBob a bonus to his save, SmartMike becomes all the more important to BigBob, and BigBob gets back to hittin' **** with his McWhoopin' Stick all the sooner.
(die size) / (number of pips which count as a success).
For example, if you need a 20, you'l take an average of 20 rolls to succeed. If you need an 18, you'll need an average of (20/3 = 6.66) rolls to succeed. Subtract one from that, and you get the average number of rounds the effect will last, if you take the assumption that the first roll is to see if it affected him at all.
If you have 30-sided dice (or even just roll d100s), it would probably be better to use those, especially if you allow ability scores to modify the rolls.
Mathematically, the average number of rolls needed to score a given target number is:
(die size) / (number of pips which count as a success).
For example, if you need a 20, you'l take an average of 20 rolls to succeed. If you need an 18, you'll need an average of (20/3 = 6.66) rolls to succeed. Subtract one from that, and you get the average number of rounds the effect will last, if you take the assumption that the first roll is to see if it affected him at all.
Sorry, just to clarify, you don't mean 18 rolls to get an 18. You mean 18 rolls to get an 18 or better, right?
I've been hit by a slow spell. In order to end the spell, I need to roll an 18 or better on 1d20. I can make one roll each round, at the end of my turn. As an average, it will take me 6.667 attempts (20/3) to succeed on this roll.
Again, it's just about giving the player something to do that feels like participation.
Indeed.
Some 4E effects are :
- «until the end of your next turn». So you're affected just one round.
- «ongoing». You take damage (or dazed, confused, etc) each round if you don't save 10+
math wise... did you incorporate the initial Save, giving x% of the time, a 0round duration that is not the same DC as the calc'ed DC for the durations?
For simple numbers-
SaveDC11, 1d6 duration
.50 ( 0rnds) + .50 ( ~d6rnds~: continuous
or some such
As an average, it will take me 6.667 attempts (20/3) to succeed on this roll
uh, average 6 tries?
does that mean a combined 6 rolls makes it a 50/50?
Cause that is not a 1d6 duration,
that would be more like 1d12 duration with half <=6round and half >=7round
Evil wizard casts generic condition spell on his turn. You roll your saving throw, using RAW. Let's assume you fail the save (else this example ends unusually early).
On your turn, you are conditioned, which you don't particularly want. Let's say under RAW, being conditioned by generic condition would last 2d6 rounds. The closest approximation is an 18+ save on 1d20. At the end of each of your turns, you attempt that save, trying to roll an 18 or higher.
In summary, if you pass your normal save, there's no effect. if you fail, you will be affected for an average of 6.666 rounds. That 6.666 rounds is the statistical average; after that many rounds (please ignore that 2/3 round - I really should have picked a different number for this example to avoid such silliness), 50% of characters will have made a save and recovered from condition.
4e's "ongoing" status effect is equal to an 11+ save in this system, which equates to an average duration of 2 rounds (1d3).
And yeah, upthread I said an 18+ save was 1d6 rounds. That was a typo. Either read it as 15+ save, or as 2d6 rounds.
-DF
The roll to shake the effects doesn't scale with level - i.e. it's 1d20 + 0 for all characters.
-DF
Correct. There should be no level-based modifiers to these saves.
If you allow for bonuses from ability scores, magic items, circumstances, etc., then you should really use a larger die size (d30, d60, or d100), in order to minimise the impact those bonuses would have.
I used diminishing condition over time... Blinded to Dazed to Dazzled to etc
hmmm, will this impact my Flashlight rules for flaring guys?
I used diminishing condition over time... Blinded to Dazed to Dazzled to etc
When hit by the attack, they make two saving throws. If they fail one, they are dazzled. If they fail both, they are blinded. Then, at the end of each of their turns, it's a DC 8 (maybe lower) check to recover one step (blinded to dazzled to normal).
Correct. There should be no level-based modifiers to these saves.
If you allow for bonuses from ability scores, magic items, circumstances, etc., then you should really use a larger die size (d30, d60, or d100), in order to minimise the impact those bonuses would have.
If you don't want them to significantly affect the result, banning them would be more appropriate.
-DF
Sweet
Correct. There should be no level-based modifiers to these saves.
If you allow for bonuses from ability scores, magic items, circumstances, etc., then you should really use a larger die size (d30, d60, or d100), in order to minimise the impact those bonuses would have.
So this wouldn't be a saving throw at all. You would determine the DC purely in relation to how long you thought the effect should last, and the roll would not be modified by level. Okay, I can see how that works out mathematically
I wonder, though, if there could be a way to work levels and/or ability scores in so that it does scale by level. That way, not only is the player making that roll (and feeling active), but that roll is a product of the character that the player built. I realise it would wonk the math all the to hell, but do you think there's a way to approximate the same probability maths?
* It would result in durations that are completely unrelated to the RAW.
* Those are already factored into the initial save to be affected at all.
* The maths is too hard.
It would be great if the DCs and the Save bonuses both scaled such that you could just re-roll the save every round instead of having a duration. That would change the durations, certainly, but I'm not too upset about that. You could also apply patch rules for extra-long durations. For example, the duration could be "until the subject saves or 6 rounds." That way, there's a maximum. If you wanted an effect to be more powerful, you could raise the maximum: "until subject saves or 12 rounds." I realise it's not the same as the RAW, and I respect that you don't want to violate that, but I think it could work!
Unfortunately, it doesn't solve the original save or suck issue. A save to reduce dmage (where the remaining damage may still kill anyway, possibly) is one thing. Save or die where a successful save results in no harm at all just doesn't play into any kind of dramatic story-telling. A game that is won or lost on a single die roll just loses its fun.
Unfortunately, it doesn't solve the original save or suck issue. A save to reduce dmage (where the remaining damage may still kill anyway, possibly) is one thing. Save or die where a successful save results in no harm at all just doesn't play into any kind of dramatic story-telling. A game that is won or lost on a single die roll just loses its fun.
Well, since it's in the eye of the beholder wether it's an issue at all, yeah. No solution.
I don't see this as a problem, so I'm not looking to solve it either.
-DF
Charm becomes dazed on successful save
Blind becomes dazzled on successful save
Slow becomes fatigued on successful save
Dominate becomes shaken on successful save
the top killer of my PCs in both D&D and Modern
has been the plain D&D Orc with GreatAxe putting fighting guys to -12 to -14 dead
(two hit fight, once to knock me down to 1~4 HP, and the second to -10etc)
it really is a matter of case by case (item by item) basis.
Poisons that Unconc, Paralyze, Blind, Daze etc
Tazers, Nets, Chainguns(trippers), Frozen in Carbonite etc
Magic like Save Or MrMagoo or Save Or Need Wheelchair
... I dont see a one size fits all solution
I would have to guess that a good TrapSense and Search Skill would help avoid sucking poison gas.
Like I said, it is realy dependant on the specific.
You say useless for the rest of the gaming session,
as if the night cant progress along the lines of "We work our day jobs till Steve gets out of his coma, then go back to the Hellmouth"
I don't play a FX game or use monsters and magic often, so it hardly comes up outside of MAS saves or poison. Regardless, if there is a story reason for something being there, there should be a story backup for if the PCs have bad luck.