Ok, I know I'm asking for trouble, so please be gentle. I realize a lot of people either don't like D&D 4e, or don't think it would translate well to d20 Modern. Although it's far from perfect, there are a lot of things I like about the system.
If you think this is a horrible idea, I understand please pass this thread by.
On the other hand, if you happen to agree with me that it would be nice to see a d20 Modern adaption of the 4e system, please post your thoughts here. I would especially like to know if anyone is already working on a 4e or Saga adaption.
If you go to Future Releases, you'll find a couple of threads on Amethyst and NeuroSpasta which are indeed presenting a variety of 4e modern. Amethyst is due in October, so it is something to consider for the near future.
Hope this helps!
You will find some answers in theses threads.
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
Atanakar, your links don't work for some reason...
Try it this way.
(Regarding why his links didnt work, refer to my sig)
What Would You Want or Dont Want in a d20 Revamp
MODERN 4S DISCUSSION GROUP
Not that I endorse those discussions,
but I hate seeing bad links in the Modern forum
If you go to Future Releases, you'll find a couple of threads on Amethyst and NeuroSpasta which are indeed presenting a variety of 4e modern. Amethyst is due in October, so it is something to consider for the near future.
Hope this helps!
After reading some of the comments of one of their team members who shall remain nameless about some subjects, I don't think I can trust the quality of their products at all.
I must have slept through 2e Modern and 3e Modern.
Thanks for the feedback and the links guys. I'll check out Neurospasta too. My only concern is that it might be too cyberpunk and not enough modern for me, but we'll see. If nothing else, it might at least give me some guidelines to balance firearms and such with the 4e power system (yeah I know there is some disagreement on the damage of firearms, but we all know HP are an abstraction anyway, so if someone can survive 20 hits with a ****ing battle axe, I'm ok with them surviving a shotgun blast too).
If you go to Future Releases, you'll find a couple of threads on Amethyst and NeuroSpasta which are indeed presenting a variety of 4e modern. Amethyst is due in October, so it is something to consider for the near future.
Hope this helps!
After reading some of the comments of one of their team members who shall remain nameless about some subjects, I don't think I can trust the quality of their products at all.
It makes it very hard then to try and address these potential issues if nobody has a clue as to what they are. But hey, to each his own and I was just offering an option of which I was aware.
Bone_naga, they had a free download which was an addendum to a game they gave away recently. It has character builds, all of which are modern characters. If you can't find the link yourself in Future Releases, just leave me a PM and I'll find it for you. 
At least it will give you an idea as to what is possible and you can tinker for yourself accordingly.
EDIT: The forum to find the threads is GSL NOT Future Releases - sorry!
Bone-
In one of the links above we discussed what the goal of a 4e - d20Modern fusion was,
and temporarily disregarding the arguements that ensued
we found there were 2 camps of those interested in the combination:
- Those that wanted to incoporate elements of 'modern' into 4e
- Those that wanted to incoporate elements of 4e into d20Modern
What are you looking for?
Right now you can easily just drag 20th century equipment to be used by 4e D&D characters. Treat firearms as if they were "ranged weapon : bow" and hand them to your 4e Rangers. Add the 20th century skills from 2d0Modern to the d&d classes, and your set. If you did that, what would you want changed... basicly, what is making that unappealing? Your answer to that question tells us what you want to create/use in your idea of mixing modern with 4e.
Good point Backstabbist. I guess one of my problems with importing d20 Modern stuff into 4e is that 4e is so carefully balanced, I am concerned that I would screw that up by dropping in a bunch of weapons that the game wasn't designed for. The other concern is one of flavor. The classes and powers were all designed with a quasi-medieval society in mind. I can change names and descriptions, but I don't feel that it will really be enough. Not to mention, D&D is a game of high fantasy, where the characters can slay gods and take their place. d20 Modern...not so much. So to answer your question, I would say I am looking to take elements of 4e, and merge them into d20 Modern.
Ok, I know I'm asking for trouble, so please be gentle. I realize a lot of people either don't like D&D 4e, or don't think it would translate well to d20 Modern. Although it's far from perfect, there are a lot of things I like about the system.
If you think this is a horrible idea, I understand please pass this thread by.
On the other hand, if you happen to agree with me that it would be nice to see a d20 Modern adaption of the 4e system, please post your thoughts here. I would especially like to know if anyone is already working on a 4e or Saga adaption.
You've embarqued on «a tall order» my friend. The two games are diametricaly opposed in mechanics and philosophy. The only thing everyone seem to agree on is that 4E ported to Modern would work well as a superhero game or high octane cinematic style like GI JOE. Is that what would are trying to do?
While a direct port wouldn't work so well (IMO), I do feel that a lot of the 4e concepts and rules could be applied to a d20 Modern game without it having an over the top GI Joe feel to it. That's why I was wondering if anyone had done an adaption of it, as opposed to me just taking modern weapons and handing them out to 4e characters.
Lets see, where else did we have some decent Modern4 discussion...
Modern anime settings and 4e
Something_of_importance_for_those_who_like_the_idea_of_a_4e_Modern_game
4E_Modern_Classes
That should be enough reading to keep you busy for a bit
If you go to Future Releases, you'll find a couple of threads on Amethyst and NeuroSpasta which are indeed presenting a variety of 4e modern. Amethyst is due in October, so it is something to consider for the near future.
Hope this helps!
After reading some of the comments of one of their team members who shall remain nameless about some subjects, I don't think I can trust the quality of their products at all.
I have a suspect about this. Is this about the whole bullet vs. arrow fiasco?
If so, I will repeat my point:
You cannot apply any logic and rationale about damage outputs for firearms when comparing them to bows in the 4ed system. In the end, it all must come down to game balance.
DEM was making a comment that some homebrew systems were listing damage outputs for firearms so high, they were causing significantly more damage than a greatsword. When you have a single numbers like AC and HP to contend with, logic goes out the window. We made a post stating that bullets and arrows have hugely varying forces at work that allow them to act differently against different targets and different protections. You start adding in bullet deflection, fragmentation, energy drop-off, and mass to velocity, and to make it all realistic would take you five minutes per attack roll. You simply cannot factor in all those variables and still have a fun and fast game. In the end game mechanics and speed have to win the day. We stand by our decision to keep firearm damage in check with fantasy swords and bows. In 4th edition, the best way to inflict severe damage by a weapon like a firearm is via attack powers, just like it is in fantasy. You want to do 5d6 damage with a pistol, then activate your "head shot" daily power (for example).
So listing a rifle doing 3d8 damage is against the mechanics of how 4th Edition works. Better to have it do 1d8 and let your powers do the rest. Besides, there are several feats that improve damage anyway. In NeuroSpasta, we also played with dozens of different variations of minion for that satisfying one-shot kill scenario.
Just sayin'
So listing a rifle doing 3d8 damage is against the mechanics of how 4th Edition works.
and so is having a bunch of 1hand guns doing 2d4, 2d6, 2d8 solely because they use 22/9mm/44mag ammo
which is one of the things that make the 4e syetm broken:
you justify the flaw in the system by saying it is how the system works
... just as saying its ok Pintos blew up, because they explode
If you are playing a game system that requires 22/9mm/44mag pistols to all do the same damage becasue thy are all 1 hand guns, you need to fix your game system rather than decide Broken is ok because it was written broken
What does more damage to an elephant-
12yo lil unskilled girl with a greatsword
or 12yo lil unskilled girl with a 416WeatherbyMag
a game system that requires grenades to explode more as thrower gains levels
need to get fixed... the $27 frag grenade is GI to green recruits who have been trained to Thumb Pull Throw Duck (or did I just grant all you guys the Grenades Feat with the 4 word class I just gave)
Serena
just cross out the word "Bow" and write in "Gun" in all your RAW 4e D&D stuff and play 4eModern game the way you want: 4eD&D verbatim with guns not better than bows
Answer me this:
How much damage does a $1000 rifle do vs a $250 Pawnshop gun?
I have bought & hunted with 3 pawnshop rifles, how many have you hunted with that qualifies you to stat them as crud? Oh right, you justify any and all acions uunder the blessings of Divine Artificial Game Balance, cause the only way to have fun playing a game is to play it your way.
So listing a rifle doing 3d8 damage is against the mechanics of how 4th Edition works.
and so is having a bunch of 1hand guns doing 2d4, 2d6, 2d8 solely because they use 22/9mm/44mag ammo
which is one of the things that make the 4e syetm broken:
you justify the flaw in the system by saying it is how the system works
... just as saying its ok Pintos blew up, because they explodeIf you are playing a game system that requires 22/9mm/44mag pistols to all do the same damage becasue thy are all 1 hand guns, you need to fix your game system rather than decide Broken is ok because it was written broken
What does more damage to an elephant-
12yo lil unskilled girl with a greatsword
or 12yo lil unskilled girl with a 416WeatherbyMaga game system that requires grenades to explode more as thrower gains levels
need to get fixed... the $27 frag grenade is GI to green recruits who have been trained to Thumb Pull Throw Duck (or did I just grant all you guys the Grenades Feat with the 4 word class I just gave)Serena
just cross out the word "Bow" and write in "Gun" in all your RAW 4e D&D stuff and play 4eModern game the way you want: 4eD&D verbatim with guns not better than bowsAnswer me this:
How much damage does a $1000 rifle do vs a $250 Pawnshop gun?
I have bought & hunted with 3 pawnshop rifles, how many have you hunted with that qualifies you to stat them as crud? Oh right, you justify any and all acions uunder the blessings of Divine Artificial Game Balance, cause the only way to have fun playing a game is to play it your way.
I never mentioned there was only one pistol, Amethyst has 17. Second, if we wanted to create a game that was completely incompatible with GSL and 4th Edition, we would do that. But our mission was not to create a "totally realistic" Modern 4th Edition system, but to create a science fiction GSL game which was compatible with D&D. We still wanted people to be able to mix the two in whatever setting they wanted. Having a pistol do 3d8 breaks a game for 1st level characters.
NeuroSpasta keeps that same idea but loses its obligation to be 100% comaptible, but we still didn't change the output, so we just lowered the hit points of the characters. We also had to incorporate a hardness/armor penatration system, which is not present in Amethyst.
Amethyst has 75 types of weapons. On top of that, there is also enhancement, increasing that number to about...oh....350. The quality of the weapon very much does matter.
Oh, and grenades have their own completely different set of rules, by the way, totally seperate from everything we talked about. They use basic ranged attacks and dish out incredible ammounts of damage. The attack powers I suggest only apply to firearms.
I wonder if I can fit Post#6 in my sig.
Much like the way FutureTech chose to attempt to apply bondo to the brokeness of Future rather than correct the brokeness, I see you want to embrace the broke system. Good luck with that, have fun with that one particular option
...me? I choose a different option:
Not accepting the bad with the good in the name of being compatible with the bad source.
Can a 1st level guy start with a Pistol & Vest ?
Cause if I ask the good readers here to shop for a pistol and vest combo for $1000,
wont some point out that the 44mag revolvers are cheaper than the 9/45 pistols, and you can get a 308 Contender and have money left over... so which $500 gun in the dsiplay can you not buy at 1st, and why the heck can you buy the weak $500 gun but not the powerful $500 gun?
MONEY determines what you can get, not your level.
Last time I bought a gun, he didnt check my level or Feat List.
You dont have to give up fantasy to have a grip on reality,
cause sometimes reality is beyond the fantastic: 50BMG pistol
You dont need LEVELs, just cash... skip the armor and buy the Thunder at 1st
Well, beyond the fact that I...don't...really...understand...what you're saying, I don't consider the 4th Edition system broken. This was not a system that we needed to "fix." I played and homebrewed D20 modern for years (see my Ghost in the Shell RPG which is still free and available) and I found 4th Edition to be the better ruleset. Obviously, this is the incorrect crowd to be making that argument to so I will move on...
I'll boil it down for you:
Q: If a 1st level guy has $500
and there is a display at the gun store with $300 2d8, $500 2d6, and $400 2d10 hadguns,
and $200 $400 $700 bodyarmors,
why cant the guy with $500 get the $400 gun?
d20 3x Answer: if he has the money he can buy it
d20Modern answer: If he makes the Wealth Roll and he spends the time he can get it.
4e style answer 1: he cant get it because it is too good for 1st level, regardless of how much money he has.
4e style answer 2: The 357, 9mm, 35rem all do the same damage, the guy needs higher level powers to make the 35rem do more than the 9mm. Only high level guys can get the exact same .35" 147gr slug to come out the 9mm baretta at 1000fps and the 35Rem at 2000fps ... it has nothing to do with there being 6x the amount of gunpowder in the 35Rem case
Class Powers make bullets move fast, not gunpowder.
That may fit in the 4e way of doing things,
but I prefer the"makes sense" way of doing things, YMMV
That's a simple answer but it has two deviations based on the specific game:
Amethyst: The truly destructive pistols you get at later levels cost a lot because they are railguns and plasma blasters. They have level reccomendations but its the cost that limits it.
NeuroSpasta: This game has NO level requirements for its weapons. Why? Because NeuroSpasta did away with all enhancement, both for armor and weapons.
Since we couldn't mess around with huge damage outputs to keep the game balanced, we looked around for other ways. Shotguns do increased damage based on range and can cause knockback
Another good example is a higher level 2d8 sniper weapon we have. It is High Crit, reduces cover bonus to AC, increases damage if you roll the maximum result on a damage die, increases accuracy if you steady your weapon, has a ridiculous ammount of armor penatration and can even pass through a target to strike someone behind.
It is more than just damage outputs.
A 1st level Sniper weapon has many of those functions as well...but not all of them.
The powers don't always do more damage, but they also cause similar effects based on your skill. A good example of this are the powers with the "auto" keyword (powers that require automatic weapons set to autofire). While some do more damage many others offer increasingly larger burst radius attacks as well as abilities that allow you to control your weapon to increase damage at specific targets. They don't just do MORE damage. We had to justify why they would. Unlike the 4th ED PHB, we don't name powers "Anvil of Doom" and "Griffon's Wrath" and list generic powers that simply do more damage. Each power needed to DO something that shows you are getting better at what you do.
A power that does 2 points of damage may be a graze but a power that does 55 points of damage and 10 ongoing is a mortal wound with a bullet still lodged somewhere.
The possibilities are there, I think.
Amethyst: The truly destructive pistols you get at later levels cost a lot because they are railguns and plasma blasters. They have level reccomendations but its the cost that limits it.
Oh, so in the future,
you start out only affording a thrown rock,
then you can afford a museum crossbow,
then you can buy a museum BrownBess,
afetr a few more levels you can get a museum 30-30,
eventutually you will have gained enough levels to affiord the destructive museum 416mag or 44mag,
if you contiunue leveling you can get a museum laser gun,
and just before you are epic you can get a gun without visiting a museum.
.... as is demonstrated today by all the street punks and pirates having crossbows & flintlocks
cause they are low level thugs.
We all see that in the news all the time, right?
Low level mook crooks using crossbows and flitlocks because they are not high enough level to get Special revolvers (38SPECIAL & 44Special were just that, they were a serious improvement in power over their forerunners)
Why would the gun industry in the future make weapons for the people that the people cannot afford?
Some companmies now make 44revolvers for $600-$800
but some other companies make them for $300-$400.
You gonna tell someone they cant afford a Taurus92 because Barrettas are expensive?
You tell folks they have to start with Muskets for a few levels cause 30-06 is too expensive?
You gona tell the new players they have to start with crossbows in the future cause lasers are expensive in the age of lasers?
What players want a future game where you only get museum crossbows and later muskets to be "balanced" with all the cavemen(D&D) in starships they encounter?
Can I start with a lasergun? Suer, but you only get this lil pipsqueek weak gun.
Can I start with a firearm? Sure, but you only get this lil 22 till you gain a few levels.
Never make the mistake of telling Texans or folks from WestByGod that real guns are not availible.
Lets examine what is high level stuff:
$600 TV... must be high level cause he could have gotten that high level gun for $600.
Couch & Table are high level items... Bed cost me over $300.... skip buying furniture and get the 2d10 pistol.
We just solved Global Warming because a $1200 used CAR is something only high level folks can afford.
Did you put together a quick list to tell new players what they Dont Get?
You dont get to buy a $1200 used car, cause you might spend that $1200 on a high level gun.
You dont get to buy a 26" TV, cause you might use that money on a high level gun.
Your Hacker character cannot buy a laptop... not even a midrange desktop, again, he might buy the wrong gun.
But I'm sure you use these limits to generate plot hooks:
Folks that have $500-$900 to spend on a washing machine and dryer dont get the Laundrymat Encounters.
The guys that dont have $1200 for a car get the daily Bus encounters.
The hacker that doesnt have a computer gets constant security encounters while using public computers (of course at low levels he cant even hack the public kiosk mode to use the computer for his activity anyway)
Since we couldn't mess around with huge damage outputs to keep the game balanced,
The biggest problem you have
is that you dont see anything wrong with that concept.
Weapon technology has always progressed to be able to do more potential damage, except in your fantasyland it seems, since you want to kill off all scientist & engineers that consider making guns more powerful than the guns they have
((removed))
((Baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct:http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1916 ))
Wow...such fire. You asked questions and I answered them. There was no flame here. I presented my point, talking about how these two games approached modern and science fiction elements. I talked about how we handled the complications which occcured. I am not sure where this antagonism came from. I believe our approach is sound and those that love and support 4th Edition I hope will read these posts and understand what I have been trying to say. If they disagree, that is their wish. Your primary arguments seem to be about core elements of 4th Edition itself, which I don't need to defend. ((removed))
Me out...
Wow...such fire. You asked questions and I answered them. There was no flame here. I presented my point, talking about how these two games approached modern and science fiction elements. I talked about how we handled the complications which occcured. I am not sure where this antagonism came from. I believe our approach is sound and those that love and support 4th Edition I hope will read these posts and understand what I have been trying to say. If they disagree, that is their wish. Your primary arguments seem to be about core elements of 4th Edition itself, which I don't need to defend. ((removed))
Me out...
and those two game apporaches don't make sense for a d20 modern...in fact to me its a bit silly....which in his own way is what BAck said.....
and those two game apporaches don't make sense for a d20 modern...in fact to me its a bit silly....which in his own way is what BAck said.....
And if Amethyst was 4ed Modern, you would be right. It isn't. Amethyst is fantasy with sci-fi elements. Neurospasta is a cyberpunk game with elements you can use as 4ed modern. Once you remove cybernetics, there is no scaling financial system in place. You can purchase a 200$ pistol at 1st level and keep it for the entire game. The same goes for armor. You never need to upgrade, so you can save up and buy your car and TV. There are a few weapons which are more powerful, like the affortmentioned Sniper weapon, but they never reach the costs of some of the weapon in D&D. We also have a loadoat system where players can outfit themselves with equipment for mission specific criteria so they don't always have to have fifteen different guns for every type of occassion.
...and one more thing, NS is still in development. If our playtesters say damage values for weapons need to go up, they'll go up. Heavy weapons already had their damage increased (something we passed onto Amethyst). Besides that, the testing continues...
I've removed or altered content from this thread because baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct. Please review the Code of Conduct here.
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
Wow...such fire. You asked questions and I answered them. There was no flame here. I presented my point, talking about how these two games approached modern and science fiction elements. I talked about how we handled the complications which occcured. I am not sure where this antagonism came from. I believe our approach is sound and those that love and support 4th Edition I hope will read these posts and understand what I have been trying to say. If they disagree, that is their wish. Your primary arguments seem to be about core elements of 4th Edition itself, which I don't need to defend. I was enjoying the civil exchange but it appears that is over. My apologies to the OP for the direction of the thread...
Me out...
and those two game apporaches don't make sense for a d20 modern...in fact to me its a bit silly....which in his own way is what BAck said.....
Trappslider, I am having a little trouble understanding your position. The first method, Amethyst's method, would not work for a standard modern game. This is largely because Amethyst is supposed to play like D&D with guns, complete with more powerful equipment only being affordable to higher level characters. Amethyst, at its heart, is still D&D, not d20 Modern.
NeuroSpasta is closer to the d20 Modern (or rather Future) concept. But, what about Serenadawns approach with NeuroSpasta doesn't make sense for d20 Modern? The removal of enhancements? d20 Modern did that too, unless you were playing a magical modern campaign (ala Urban Arcana). Its not like d20 Modern offered particularly drastic increases in damage between weapon types either. An AK-47 does 2d10. A .50 sniper rifle does 2d12. The change in numbers isn't exactly mind blowing, despite the drastic increase in ftlb. And if NeuroSpasta offers less base damage dice to their weapons then d20 Modern does, through its power system characters will still end up doing a lot more damage with weapons, and a lot larger percentages of an opponents hit points with a single hit, then characters in d20 Modern ever did. I mean, high level tough heroes in d20 Modern could "take an Abrams tank shell to the chest" and live. Personally, I call that silly.
So honestly, I don't see why you are jumping on SerenaDawn, or defending backstabbist. You might not agree with SerenaDawn, and that is totally fair. You don't have to like the same type of games, or the games his company releases. When you design a new Modern themed game you can design it to your tastes instead of his. But what he is suggesting is not particularly out there. NeuroSpasta seems fairly in line with what d20 Modern already did, at least to me. What is more, nothing in SerenaDawns posts deserved the sort of outright hostility and bullying backstabbist has exhibited. SerenaDawn was fairly polite. There was no call for the tone of backstabbists last post.
Agree with SerenaDawn or don't. But I don't understand the defense of backstabbists cyber-bullying. His response was just uncalled for.
Dave
Telling folks its wrong
to make 2+2=5 because the broken game system needs it to be 5,
is not cyber bullying.
If what folks say makes no sense
they have to expect others to notice and mention it makes no sense.
I have played Toon,
I dont need that as core to Modern games
Trappslider, I am having a little trouble understanding your position. The first method, Amethyst's method, would not work for a standard modern game. This is largely because Amethyst is supposed to play like D&D with guns, complete with more powerful equipment only being affordable to higher level characters. Amethyst, at its heart, is still D&D, not d20 Modern.NeuroSpasta is closer to the d20 Modern (or rather Future) concept. But, what about Serenadawns approach with NeuroSpasta doesn't make sense for d20 Modern? The removal of enhancements? d20 Modern did that too, unless you were playing a magical modern campaign (ala Urban Arcana). Its not like d20 Modern offered particularly drastic increases in damage between weapon types either. An AK-47 does 2d10. A .50 sniper rifle does 2d12. The change in numbers isn't exactly mind blowing, despite the drastic increase in ftlb. And if NeuroSpasta offers less base damage dice to their weapons then d20 Modern does, through its power system characters will still end up doing a lot more damage with weapons, and a lot larger percentages of an opponents hit points with a single hit, then characters in d20 Modern ever did. I mean, high level tough heroes in d20 Modern could "take an Abrams tank shell to the chest" and live. Personally, I call that silly.
So honestly, I don't see why you are jumping on SerenaDawn, or defending backstabbist. You might not agree with SerenaDawn, and that is totally fair. You don't have to like the same type of games, or the games his company releases. When you design a new Modern themed game you can design it to your tastes instead of his. But what he is suggesting is not particularly out there. NeuroSpasta seems fairly in line with what d20 Modern already did, at least to me. What is more, nothing in SerenaDawns posts deserved the sort of outright hostility and bullying backstabbist has exhibited. SerenaDawn was fairly polite. There was no call for the tone of backstabbists last post.
Agree with SerenaDawn or don't. But I don't understand the defense of backstabbists cyber-bullying. His response was just uncalled for.
This.
Wow guys, I leave for a week and come back to a thread war over whether or not a bullet to the face should deal more damage than a battle axe to the face? It's a game people, relax.
No playable PnP RPG could accurately account for all the differences between weapons and armor, whether you're talking about arrows and plate mail, or firearms and interceptor vests. What level of abstraction is acceptable varies from person to person, but one of the strengths of 4e is the amount of balance in the system. There's no point in using that system if you intend to throw balance out the window to make guns aWe$Ome. Besides, it sounds like guns are gaining other advantages besides raw damage, which makes sense. And on top of that, the system is still in playtest and subject to change. I really don't see the need for all the animosity.
Dave
Telling folks its wrong
to make 2+2=5 because the broken game system needs it to be 5,
is not cyber bullying.If what folks say makes no sense
they have to expect others to notice and mention it makes no sense.I have played Toon,
I dont need that as core to Modern games
Look up at your last post. You will notice it has been edited by an orc. Sections of it have been removed, and you have been instructed to review the code of conduct. That moderation happened for a reason. It was not because you were being polite. Those deleted sections were deleted because you were engaging in cyber bullying.
Also, just because you keep telling folks that they are saying that 2 + 2 = 5 doesn't mean that that is what they are actually saying. You keep trying to turn your subjective opinions into empirical facts. You keep trying to tell people that they are empirically wrong, and have empirical problems of perception. That, in and of itself, is rude. Your position is not empirically correct. I can honestly say that I think most of what you write is backwards and illogical. I often can not even connect the logic of your posts to the posts you are responding to. Obviously our subjective opinions do not align. Similarly, your subjectivity might not align with SerenaDawns, but that does not mean that he is saying something as empirically incorrect as 2 + 2 = 5. It just means he has a different subjectivity than you. His subjectivity deserves as much respect as yours does. He didn't deserve the comments you made that an orc was forced to delete. He doesn't deserve to be told that he is empirically incorrect, and his opinions are of the same value as the statement that 2 + 2 = 5.
What you need, and what the community needs, are not one and the same. Please have respect for your fellow posters, even if they don't agree with your position.
DaveTelling folks its wrong
to make 2+2=5 because the broken game system needs it to be 5,
is not cyber bullying.If what folks say makes no sense
they have to expect others to notice and mention it makes no sense.I have played Toon,
I dont need that as core to Modern games
I don't know all the mechanics that are to be included in Amethyst or Neurospasta, but I don't see what he has said here that didn't make sense. I don't know the stats for all the guns or anything, but everything he mentioned seemed reasonable. You might disagree, but you got way too agressive there. If you have reason to disagree, then give your reasons, no need to flame people.
And how can you judge whether or not the game system is broken before it is even released?
And how can you judge whether or not the game system is broken before it is even released?
Amen.
Trappslider, I am having a little trouble understanding your position. The first method, Amethyst's method, would not work for a standard modern game. This is largely because Amethyst is supposed to play like D&D with guns, complete with more powerful equipment only being affordable to higher level characters. Amethyst, at its heart, is still D&D, not d20 Modern.
Well As oyu know I normally try to stay out of the hard core dicussions,and I see the slope that some of the community wish that D20 modern would take in the future towards 4E,and those appoarches seem to be the very thing we all argued about in the past that D20 modern is not D&D with guns and rules like Amethyst are a setp back in the whole D20 modern is not D&D with guns argument at least to me.
And I'm sorry for any attacks I may havei nadvertedly done.
Well As oyu know I normally try to stay out of the hard core dicussions,and I see the slope that some of the community wish that D20 modern would take in the future towards 4E,and those appoarches seem to be the very thing we all argued about in the past that D20 modern is not D&D with guns and rules like Amethyst are a setp back in the whole D20 modern is not D&D with guns argument at least to me.And I'm sorry for any attacks I may havei nadvertedly done.
Yea. I'm not arguing that the next d20 Modern should be like D&D. Amethyst is a "Modern D&D" game, but that's Amethyst. It is what it is supposed to be, it is not necessarily what d20 Modern should be. But NeuroSpasta seems pretty in line with d20 Modern, at least in terms of how it sounds like its equipment will be stated. Maybe not though. Tastes differ. Its really hard to tell before we see the rules, to be honest, one way or another.
I suppose what really confused me is that it seemed like you were defending the way backstabbist was talking to SerenaDawn. That is all I really didn't get. SerenaDawn was being polite. Backstabbist was not. But anyway, it seems evident that that was not your intent...
So yea...
How about that whether we've been having lately?
Same old... Same old... Don Quixote of La Mancha syndrome.
Same old... Same old... Don Quixote of La Mancha syndrome.
Yup.
I don't know all the mechanics that are to be included in Amethyst or Neurospasta, but I don't see what he has said here that didn't make sense. I don't know the stats for all the guns or anything, but everything he mentioned seemed reasonable. You might disagree, but you got way too agressive there. If you have reason to disagree, then give your reasons, no need to flame people.
And how can you judge whether or not the game system is broken before it is even released?
Well, at least the OP is in agreenment with me, which makes this thread worthwhile. Bone, if you are interested, buzz over to the Dias Ex Machina company page and get in on the playtesting for NeuroSpasta. That way, you can see for yourself what we are doing and have a hand in making it good, balanced, and enjoyable for yourself and others you would reccomend the game to. That goes for all you that love 4th Edition, want to see a successful adaptation of 4th Edition with a modern/sci-fi twist, and that wants to support a company that is at least willing to give it a try.
I never said Amethyst was 4ed Modern. In fact, in a blog elsewhere on this site, I specifically said that was not a priority to make it that way. You can use it as a jumping off point and I think the ammount of changes you would need to make are actually really small. NeuroSpasta is attempting to present something akin to 4th Ed modern but we never referred to D20 modern for advice. We just did what made sense to us. Let me repeat, D20 modern was never used as refference. NS does have a skew towards cyberpunk...and that was our intent. The setting comes first, not the rules. So if you wanted to create a truly modern 4th ed game, there might still be some tweaking, though not nearly as much as Amethyst.
Amethyst has the richer setting, in my opinion, which is why Goodman snapped it up. NS has far more rules and promises more variety for homebrew games, but as I have also said, we are a new and small company and the promise of NeuroSpasta depends on the success of Amethyst.
Phew...
Bone-
"... to make guns aWe$Ome..."
guns are not awesome, NIJ rated bodyarmors are 
When you shoot a 9mm at armor rated to defeat 9mm,
the awesometude of that gun is greatly diminished
... of course they could skip past the kid stuff and go up to Steelcore AP 30-06 to punch them vests,
which of course wont do the job if folks chose to wear NIJ4 bodyarmor
(yes there will be blunt trauma, and the degree of blunt trauma is part of the NIJ rating system- armor rated to defeat a caliber will not exceed their limit of acceptable internal blunt effect)
Just a little bit.
well, yeah.
Even a baseball bat that has no hope of ever Penetrating a NIJ-I vest
can and will, easily, "defeat" that NIJ-I vest
Soft 3a has a good chance of defeating it, and the 3a,3,4 inserts will defeat a bat.
Guard armor, with decent Stab & Spike NIJ rating will also defeat a bat.
People just don't have any respect for the laws of physics, I tell ya. That is why the myths of "knockback" and "knockdown power" continue to exist in gun lover circles.
If any of these folks actually ever have to shoot somebody, it'll be a shame.
People just don't have any respect for the laws of physics, I tell ya. That is why the myths of "knockback" and "knockdown power" continue to exist in gun lover circles.
If any of these folks actually ever have to shoot somebody, it'll be a shame.
I thought the Mythbusters already took on the whole knockdown thing and busted it. I think most of us already knew the outcome, but it was nice to see someone prove it to those who doubted its implausability.
That being said, I don't mind a knockback or knockdown mechanic for firearms or firearms powers; especially for big guns, like shotguns, or anything in a caliber Inspector Harry Callahan would use. It certainly wouldn't be a realistic/simulationist combat effect, but not everyone prefers that style. For those who do, it might be more realistic to replace the knockback/knockdown effect with a stunning effect to simulate the sudden shock of extreme physical trauma. It ultimately comes down to what style of game one prefers to indulge in.
Alternately however, I do find it odd that there's no knockdown/knockback mechanic for things that actually do generate enough force to hurl a person to the ground (like the blast radius of a grenade).
Yeah, we felt the same way. The shotgun causes knockdown on a critical hit. We do have a few powers that push a target back after you shoot it 10 times with a machine gun but that's the limit. Quite the opposite, we have several weapons that can hit two targets with the same bullet (pass through). Railguns can do it with every shot.
That also being said, we couldn't help but include a series of powers we lovingly call "cinematic cliches" for those that WANT movie effects.
Like everyone and their dog, I have Knockback rules in Phoenix, if anyone's interested (although it's essentially a 3e game, so you might not be).
Alote more crossovers possiblilities then you may think! Out of curiosity have you read the combat rules of 4E? Its essentially a streamlined version of 3.5 combat. It can be played on it own without powers and other 4E stuff.
I thought the Mythbusters already took on the whole knockdown thing and busted it. I think most of us already knew the outcome, but it was nice to see someone prove it to those who doubted its implausability.That being said, I don't mind a knockback or knockdown mechanic for firearms or firearms powers; especially for big guns, like shotguns, or anything in a caliber Inspector Harry Callahan would use. It certainly wouldn't be a realistic/simulationist combat effect, but not everyone prefers that style. For those who do, it might be more realistic to replace the knockback/knockdown effect with a stunning effect to simulate the sudden shock of extreme physical trauma. It ultimately comes down to what style of game one prefers to indulge in.
Alternately however, I do find it odd that there's no knockdown/knockback mechanic for things that actually do generate enough force to hurl a person to the ground (like the blast radius of a grenade).
People are just as bad about it when it comes to explosives as they are with bullets. I hate it every time I watch a movie and eight people get tossed 50 feet by a little hand grenade. Actually I hate the way pretty much every movie handles explosions, but that's Hollywood for you. The Hurt Locker actually did very good detonations, but I hate the rest of the movie, especially the rampant stupidity displayed throughout it and the way it glorified that idiot cowboy, but now I'm starting to rant. Anyway, it's Hollywood, you just can't win.
Alote more crossovers possiblilities then you may think! Out of curiosity have you read the combat rules of 4E? Its essentially a streamlined version of 3.5 combat. It can be played on it own without powers and other 4E stuff.
I have not, no. I'm sticking with 3.5 for the time being. I'll give 4e a fair shake at some point, when the opportunity arises, but I'm quite happy with 3.5-flavoured gaming.
People are just as bad about it when it comes to explosives as they are with bullets. I hate it every time I watch a movie and eight people get tossed 50 feet by a little hand grenade. Actually I hate the way pretty much every movie handles explosions, but that's Hollywood for you. The Hurt Locker actually did very good detonations, but I hate the rest of the movie, especially the rampant stupidity displayed throughout it and the way it glorified that idiot cowboy, but now I'm starting to rant. Anyway, it's Hollywood, you just can't win.
Movies are all about what's dramatic, not what's realistic. A certain simplistic view of what constitutes "dramatic" will lead to bigger and bigger spectacle. Film historians actually identify the big "knockback" effects in Westerns as a part of the development of the genre. Not that it's good, necessarily, but that that's part of how it developed in an effort to make its violence all that much more spectacular. What's disappointing is that we don't see all that many filmmakers going in the opposite direction: using ultra-realism as their dramatic device. I think it's possible, but very few action-movie producers want to experiment like that. They just reproduce their formula in orcer to earn X dollars for Y investment. Commerce and art are inextricably linked and almost diametrically opposed. It's a conundrum.
Movies are all about what's dramatic, not what's realistic. A certain simplistic view of what constitutes "dramatic" will lead to bigger and bigger spectacle. Film historians actually identify the big "knockback" effects in Westerns as a part of the development of the genre. Not that it's good, necessarily, but that that's part of how it developed in an effort to make its violence all that much more spectacular. What's disappointing is that we don't see all that many filmmakers going in the opposite direction: using ultra-realism as their dramatic device. I think it's possible, but very few action-movie producers want to experiment like that. They just reproduce their formula in orcer to earn X dollars for Y investment. Commerce and art are inextricably linked and almost diametrically opposed. It's a conundrum.
The more disappointing aspect, at least to my thinking, is that filmakers take the simplistic view of thinking moviegoers equate explosions/stunts/special effects to drama. Ultra-realism is not a style I personally care for, and some people may find it too limiting for their tastes, but it would be nice if filmakers would head down the path of plot equals drama instead of trying to wow us with visual spectacle. I suppose I'm just hoping they'll give the moviegoing public more credit in terms of entertaining our minds instead of just hitting the "action effect" pleasure button till we go brain dead.
Well, yes and no. It's certainly the common wisdom that plot/characters are inherently more artful than spectacle, but spectacle is damn hard to make and to make well. Weta deserves a lot of credit for the sheer spectacle of Lord of the Rings as does Bloomfeld et al. for District 9. It just so happens in those cases that the spectacle was in some kind of harmony with the plot/characters/themes/etc.. But when you think about it, a beautifully-rendered nature photo is an excercise in sheer spectacle, but we appreciate it for what it is.
The very existence of spectacle cinema doesn't bother me so much as, as you say, the unthinking reliance on formulaic spectacle (explosions, blood, women's bodies) rather than the creative use of spectacle (either as its own thing, or for narrative purposes). I'd just like more variety, myself. Having every action movie do the same A-Team "blown clear of the explosion" shot gets really boring, and it starts to call attention to the filmmakers' lack of creativity. But once upon a time, that shot was the newest most excitingest thing anyone had ever thought of, just like the "knocked-back by a bullet" shot, or the "multiple explosions" shot where the car blows up three times. A cliche is just a good idea done badly, many many times.
Speaking personally, I just get bothered when people mistake Hollywood conventions for reality.
Thankfully, things like Mythbusters exist for this very reason.
I agree. I also think we shouldn't be surprised when they do, though. Where else do people get their sense of reality? They should be getting from their educational institutions (elementary, highschool, university) but the entertainment industry is just far more powerful and ever-present in their (our!) lives. TV and movies are a large part of our socialisation, our assimilation into our culture. That, by the way, is one of the major reasons that other nations are so frustrated with the tidal wave of American crap-media that is air-dropped onto us ever year. It's convenient as hell, like someone bringing so much McDonald's to your door that you stop bothering to make your own food, but it is not good for you! And it's not American culture that most of us object to (although we're protective of our own). It the false culture, the false reality, that's contained within Hollywood generic conventions, a reality that doesn't exist for most Americans either.
So all that being said, I do understand why you'd want to resist that in your gaming worlds, as well. I think, though, that the only way to do half of the action genres we know is with those conventions in tact, so perhaps the best we can do is be aware of how unreal and silly they are, perhaps include the occasional meta-joke at their expense?
It's the weekend and I do wax philosophical.