AC for DR - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

AC for DR

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
gordjohnson
Feb 06, 2009 13:14:17 does anyone have a table of armor giving damage reduction rather than Defense? because i dont really like that the biggest suit of armour makes you harder to hit.

maybe some sort of penetration rules like mongooses' "Conan" game?
#2
Master_Vega
Feb 06, 2009 13:29:25 One variant that, if memory serves, is in Unearthed Arcana: Split an armor's normal defense (AC) down the middle. One half still counts as defense, while the other is now damage reduction. On an uneven split, the higher number goes to defense.

Note that changing defense bonus from armor to a damage reduction rating makes feats like Power Attack much more potent and important than normal, as everyone's going to be a lower defense than normal, and they're going to absorb damage more easily.
#3
backstabbist
Feb 06, 2009 13:57:29

I would say it is upto the style of game you want to play.
These would all be fun, depending on your definition of fun:
Armor as Def
Fewer hits, but hits really hurt. Armor would actually make you more likely to take damage from Autofire/Grenades. PowerAttack can make attacks really hurtful
50% Def , 50% DR
More shots hit, but the low numbers from RAW WoC armors dont take enough hurt off of a 9mm to make heavy armor realistic. PowerAttack would be on par to negate the Armor DR, and it makes Strong Ignore Hardness more usable

Full Def + Full DR
The heaviest Armor in game, which should take care of almost all 7.62 shots, instead is in game as +9 which is not enough DR to reliably stop even a 9mm. Makes armored foes FAR more formidable in a civilian campaign of light/no armor: Weak attacks just wont cut it, you need serious offence to hurt them
#4
gordjohnson
Feb 06, 2009 14:44:13 i'll be playing dark matter, and the players will have light armor at best.
#5
rhialto
Feb 06, 2009 17:52:51 Personally, I favour making the entire armour bonus as DR, in addition to providing its usual AC benefit. Swapping out AC for DR makes armour very weak if they do large amounts of damage in a single hit.
#6
gordjohnson
Feb 06, 2009 18:02:16 and you feel that wouldnt be overpowered?
#7
gordjohnson
Feb 06, 2009 18:10:47 what about halve the ac bonus (rounded up) and give them the normal ac bonus worth of DR?

so for an undercover vest (+3) you made it +2 and 3/-?

its decided... thats what im doing.
#8
magusblack
Feb 06, 2009 19:41:13 Part of the problem with changing it is that you’ll need to change “Natural” armor into Damage Reduction as well, as well as shields (which ultimately would take up a lot more time). Likewise you’d have to increase the most weapons or else everyone will only carry heavy caliber or very large weapons…plus you run into inappropriate armor benefits; like how most modern armors aren’t very effective against various close combat weapons (mostly those that pierce).

Your Defense represents how hard it is for opponents to land a solid, damaging blow on you.

Also unless you change the definition of what Defense is I don’t really see how it’s a problem, since it implies that if they hit your Defense, you’ve been injured in some manner and the armor is, thus, doing its job in preventing you from being hurt.
#9
gordjohnson
Feb 06, 2009 20:26:07 i think it will be fine, we're talking about people who will just be investigators not dragon slayers. most of them wont even have more than light armor if any.
they wont be in non stop combat, and they will rarley be able to requisition more than a 9mm.
i know they rules are the way they are because they work, but i want to do it my way god damnit!
#10
rhialto
Feb 07, 2009 3:48:21 Honestly, giving armour full AC and DR benefits is not overpowered.

If you are not expecting combat, anything that isn't concealable is going to get you major penalties in social interaction - when was the last time you saw anyone wearing obvious full body armour in the street? Or even in the rough parts of town for that matter? Most GMs almost completely ignore this. You'd probably have a hard time being allowed in banks, let alone getting served. It'd probably break dress codes at most restaurants too. In a Modern campaign, it shoudl be trivially easy for the GM to arrange for fights where it isn't prtactical for the heroes to be wearing dreadnought suits. And trivially easy for the baddies to be armed to the teeth in those situatiosn where teh heroes are.

And dammit, if I' wearing a dreadnought suit, I want to be mowing baddies down liek grass!

In combat, the best armour in core rules gives 9 points. That'll pretty much save you from significant hurt from any weapon that doesn't cause a critical hit. The best concealable armour (vest) is 4 points. That's good, but you are still at significant risk of taking significant hp damage, although it'd likely take a longarm to crit you.

I would add some flaws though.

First, any DR gained from armour should always allow at least 1 hp of damage to go through. (This may require some tweaking - perhaps even to say the most that armour-based DR can stop is half the original damage).

Second, archaic and impromptu armours give no DR against ballistic damage.

Concealable armours give no DR against piercing damage (they are assumed to be made of ballistic cloth or its equivalent protective concept).

Tactical armour gives full DR against all physical damage types.
#11
DwarfFighter
Feb 07, 2009 7:48:13
Honestly, giving armour full AC and DR benefits is not overpowered.

I know it would be overpowered in my game.

-DF
#12
backstabbist
Feb 07, 2009 11:32:28
Your Defense represents how hard it is for opponents to land a solid, damaging blow on you.

But unfortunately, that concept falls apart with things like
Leather Jackets make 5% of tankshells glance off you, or LawRockets, or Ship to ship FusionCannon

Wrapping yourself with a good towel is great armor vs a RedRyder BBgun.
Is wrapping yourself in a towel decent armor against a 9mm?
Cause when we talk 57mm cannon slugs, that +3 Kevlar Vest is on par with a towel for saving you. That may be at the top end, but the bottom end with a 9mm vs Fonzie Jacket is just as silly. Armor is only armor against what it is rated for, since the d20 system doesnt deal with Penetration. The towel is good armor against BBguns and apparently 57mm cannon, just as a leather jacket / +3Kevlar is good against cannons.

More effective armor is not that unbalancing,
The badguys can wear armor too, fights last longer.
It spotlights the lack of Armor prof feats in classes since armor is important.
But that dont mean folks cant have a good time playing it.

If they want to game with lotsa hits leading to less dieing,
sounds like fun.
#13
DwarfFighter
Feb 08, 2009 5:34:59 In any situation where you as the GM feel that the rules allow for a resolution that is in no way believable, that is: it is impossible to maintain the suspension of disbelief, it is your right and duty to ignore those rules.

Let's say you are resolving the effects of a tank shooting at one of the characters. The rules allow for protective measures: the leather jacket's +1 to Defense and the characters 120 hp. As the GM you can overrule any and all of these measures:

You can discount the armour bonus when rolling to hit because there is no way a thin layer of animal hide is going to turn away an explosive shell.

You can skip rolling damage and deducting hit points because there is no way a human being can survive that kind of damage.

At this point your player is likely to be a bit upset. If he's the kind of player that thinks the rules represent some kind of uncannily accurate reality simulator he'll likely raise hell and call you out for breaking the rules. Hopefully you don't have that kind of players at your table. If your players are reasonable to any degree I am sure they'll agree that taking a tank shell to the chest results in death. Even so it should be upsetting to anyone to hear the GM rule that their character is suddenly dead.

Personally I would prefer to resolve the attack as failing to score a direct hit and throw some sharpnel damage at the character instead.

-DF
#14
backstabbist
Feb 08, 2009 11:58:52
If your players are reasonable to any degree I am sure they'll agree that taking a tank shell to the chest results in death

Couple key concepts on that
Taking a tankgun round to an unprotected chest indeed will normally (&99% abnornmally) = Death
However, taking a 57mm AP tankslug to the left Radius/Ulna is very survivable if your pals are around.
Lastly, taking a 57mm HE tankshell to the center of your Vanadium-GravArmor (thick & reduced mass) is very very survivable...

this is almost like the Space Suit Armor situation:
If we make a SpaceArmor out of kevlar-III & polycarbonate that each can soundly stop a 9mm slug, how do we say it is only a +10 Def that makes you just 50% more resiliant to 9mm? How is that slug getting into the bulletproof suit to hurt you by rolling a high ToHit?

or StormTroopers:
The whiteparts can be Duraplastic and the black is NIJ-iv kevlar.... so how does a 2d4 22lr hit the guy inside? Cause it aint how a 410mag / 57mm hits him, the highpower stuff simply punches thru that heavy armor like butter while the 22lr bounces off with the same ToHit roll.

When bodyarmor is completely dealt with by the ToHit
there has to be something that determines if the armor is capable of deflecting or absorbing that hit.

First tell me your Def, and I'll roll ToHit
then I will tell you if it is a Glock or Abrams120 that your +3Vest just protected you from

Hardness10 modern bodyarmor wont help against a 57mm gun
but Hardness40 Future Bodyarmor will.
Remember this workup of future bodyarmors

Holding up a coroplast GarageSale sign shouldnt be "Cover: -4Tohit"
because the sign will just get punch thru by guns like it wasnt there
just as if it were 16ga Steel / 3mm plexiglass Shield getting punched thru by a 50BMG like it wasnt there
or a +10 Forced Entry NIJ-iv getting punched by a Abrams like it wasnt there
.... but yet we see the armors helping without regard to what they actualy can help against
#15
TheRealOrion
Feb 08, 2009 12:09:03 deleted: off-top (thanks backstabbist)
#16
backstabbist
Feb 08, 2009 12:22:15 Orion
Please refer to the OP as to what the thread is talking about.
He didnt ask for a discussion of the rights & wrongs of using DR for armor instead of RAW,
he wanted options on how to do it.

True, RAW is not a realistic way to do it. OK.
But the OP already said he wanted to step away from that way.
We know what he is stepping away from, but where is he stepping to?

As for rationaizing
any rules you are considering using, you should be able to rationalize as to why.
We shouldnt say "XXXX Armor gives YYYY protection" without being able to explain WHY.
And I really dont like when the entire rationale for something is Artificial Game Balance
#17
narukagami
Feb 08, 2009 13:15:28 *butts in*
Most of the better game systems that use armor as damage reducing protection have different values for ballistic/non-ballistic protection, and give weapons a penetration value.
#18
akodo
Feb 08, 2009 15:22:10 I don't think you could convert or derive damage reduction amount based on AC reduction amount.

You could create a second system to add on top of the armor.

use the AC change to reflect melee combat only.

then for ballistic armor, classify it as follows

Light = half all pistol and SMG damage. All other firearms ignore this armor.
Medium = convert all pistol and SMG damage to 1 point per hit. Shotguns and extremely large pistols (44 magnum, desert eagle) do half damage. All other firearms ignore this armor
Heavy = all small arms damage is converted to 1 point per hit, with the following exceptions. Assault rifles and light rifles do half damage. Sniper rifles/medium rifles or AP ammo being used in assault rifles/ight rifles does full damage.
Extremely Heavy =all small arms damage is ignored. Sniper rifles/medium rifles using AP ammo do half damage. In addition, roll a D6, if you roll lower than the number of half damage shots taken so far, the armor is considered destroyed.

No class of personal armor will interfere with large caliber, anti-material rifles (Barrett M82 etc)

Once you determine if a hit has occurred, you then compare armor type to weapon type to see if you even need to bother applying it.

These armors do not give full body coverage like a suit of medival full plate (at least not unless you go to a future setting) so you will need a few classifications of coverage, and a roll to determine if the armor is covering the part hit.

i'd say.

Chest panel = 14+ on D20
Partial vest = 12+ on D20
Full Vest = 10+ on D20
Full Vest + additional parts = 8+ on D20
Full suit ala bomb squad 6+ = on d20

Helmet of the same type or heavier = +2 on the roll
Note on chest panel. This is normally an reenforcment to bring the armor up a level (this is how in modern you'd get extra-heavy) Roll once. If you don't score high enough to utilize chest panel's value, keep the same roll and use it for the other armor types present.

I.E. Trooper in Full Vest + additional parts with a chest panel. Trooper gets shot. a 10 is rolled. The chest panel is irrelevant, but his full vest of medium armor means the shotgun blast does half damage.
#19
rhialto
Feb 08, 2009 16:56:42 simpler solution. Roll 1d6: 1 - head, 2 - body, 3 - left arm, 4 - right arm, 5 - left leg, 6 - right leg. Determine what armour is on that body part, and reduce damage appropriately.
#20
winternova
Feb 10, 2009 14:55:45 I've been usuing an 'armor as DR' rule for a while now in my future campaign, and will probably use it for all d20m, as it's a hit with the players. In my system, an armor's equipment bonus halved, and rounded up is the DR.

I ran into a few problems, though:

Firstly, there was the natural armor bonuses of creatures and robots. I dealt with that by splitting the armor bonus down the middle, with the DR recieving any unequal numbers.

Then I hit a problem with touch attacks. I stole a play from the Star Wars RCR, and put my own spin on it: touch attacks ignore half class defense.

After that, there were problems with whether or not a target was considered armored or not. I decided that the 'tactical' modifier on armor would be the cutoff point for things like armor piercing rounds and similar picky effects, and that a natural DR of 4 counted as being 'tactical.'

Furthermore, some of the heavier armors just weren't worth it. Fior example, the Light Combat Armor of d20f would offer a DR of 2 (equipment bonus +3,) while d20f's Land Warrior Armor would only offer a DR of 3 (equipment bonus +6.) The Land Warrior Armor is damn near useless in comparison! As a result, I gave armors greater than light bonus DR. Medium armor recieves a +1 bonus, heavy gets +2, and powered armor gets +3.

I may yet alter the bonuses for heavier armor, but for now I think I've got the kinks worked out pretty well, although I've been thinking about switching to a new system in which light armor yields half equipment bonus rounded down as DR, medium is half rounded up, and heavy and power armors grant the full equipment bonus as DR, though that would make light armor damn near worthless.
#21
akodo
Feb 13, 2009 0:03:59
simpler solution. Roll 1d6: 1 - head, 2 - body, 3 - left arm, 4 - right arm, 5 - left leg, 6 - right leg. Determine what armour is on that body part, and reduce damage appropriately.

not so simple. Your system would result in 1/6th of all shots being headshots, not realistic in the least.

Also, in general while the skull is protected, the face is less protected, the chin hardly protected at all and the neck exposed when wearing a helmet. A small vest covers the core of the chest, while a large vest tends to cover all the chest, and the largest armor comes up and covers the neck, parts for the shoulders, and hangs down protecting the 'man fruits'

It still leaves the arms and legs mostly unprotected. In the end you have a basic system of 1 and 2 = hit armor if you wear a helmet, 2 = hit armor with no helmet.

Is someone goign to bother with armor that has a 1 in 6 chance of being effective? Also, it doesn't come close to modeling reality nor TV/Action movies, and Modern is supposed to resemble one or the other at least to some degree.

I suppose you could go for 1-3= body, 4= head, 5= arms 6=legs and simply have Vest and Helmet available for armor. That would work fine for a system that had Handgun and Rifle for weapons. However, I suspect you will constantly have players unappy that ALL armor is chest, no matter if they get cheapo mall security type or top end military type.
#22
xvgreymanvx
Dec 25, 2009 19:44:49 Hello all, this is my first post on the Wiz, so forgive me from butting in...

It seems to me that I saw somewhere that the subdual damage for M20 was busted, so looking at this link for DR, I was thinking that if you switch to a system that allows subdual/non-lethal damage to stack, then you can 'somewhat' fix this DR problem by giving each set of armor a rating, as follows:

Light armor converts slashing weapons and personal firearms with d4-d6 damage to subdual damage. Piercing/bludgeoning weapons and firearms ranging d8-d12 do full damage. Critical hits always do full lethal damage as normal.

Medium armor converts slashing/bludgeoning weapons and personal firearms with d4-d10 damage to subdual damage. Piercing weapons and firearms ranging d12 do full damage. Critical hits always do full lethal damage as normal.

Heavy armor converts slashing/bludgeoning weapons and personal firearms from d4-d10 to subdual damage. d12 firearms and piercing weapons do half-damage. Critical hits always do full lethal damage as normal.

It seems to me that is can be exploited, but a good DM can make up for this. In a cinematic game, this seems to work about like combat armor in many video games. Eventually you will knock the target out through subdual damage, making coup de grace or capturing easier. (If the characters survive.)

This is just a suggestion, not exactly the rules I'd use, but it's an option. Most modern vests (light) do a good job of stopping smaller rounds and ceramic (medium/heavy) can stop high-powered rounds. You generally do wind up with a hell of a bruise and maybe cracked ribs, but that's technically what subdual damage is in the first place.

Think about the.... what was it? The West Hollywood Shootout? Those guys in heavy armor just walked through small caliber bullets for like an hour.

Another note: If I used DR for my armor, I would give my armor HP and all damage that exceeded the armor's DR would be dealt to both the wearer and the armor itself. Once the armor's HP is exceeded it's DR is reduced by 75% (rounded down, minimum of 0) until repaired.
#23
dulsi
Dec 30, 2009 14:43:10 I always thought d20 Modern used armor as DR instead of AC since they had defense bonuses on the classes. Just shows that despite owning the book for a long time I've never ran/played a game.

As for XVGreyman's armor suggestions, I like keeping things simple if subdual damage is separate from regular hp damage I'd rather avoid it. It is simpler than some other suggestion but I don't mind the AC system that much. As for giving armor a hp value, that also seem more complex than I'd like.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 gordjohnson Feb 06, 2009 13:14:17	does anyone have a table of armor giving damage reduction rather than Defense? because i dont really like that the biggest suit of armour makes you harder to hit. maybe some sort of penetration rules like mongooses' "Conan" game?
#2 Master_Vega Feb 06, 2009 13:29:25	One variant that, if memory serves, is in Unearthed Arcana: Split an armor's normal defense (AC) down the middle. One half still counts as defense, while the other is now damage reduction. On an uneven split, the higher number goes to defense. Note that changing defense bonus from armor to a damage reduction rating makes feats like Power Attack much more potent and important than normal, as everyone's going to be a lower defense than normal, and they're going to absorb damage more easily.
#3 backstabbist Feb 06, 2009 13:57:29	I would say it is upto the style of game you want to play. These would all be fun, depending on your definition of fun: Armor as Def Fewer hits, but hits really hurt. Armor would actually make you more likely to take damage from Autofire/Grenades. PowerAttack can make attacks really hurtful 50% Def , 50% DR More shots hit, but the low numbers from RAW WoC armors dont take enough hurt off of a 9mm to make heavy armor realistic. PowerAttack would be on par to negate the Armor DR, and it makes Strong Ignore Hardness more usable Full Def + Full DR The heaviest Armor in game, which should take care of almost all 7.62 shots, instead is in game as +9 which is not enough DR to reliably stop even a 9mm. Makes armored foes FAR more formidable in a civilian campaign of light/no armor: Weak attacks just wont cut it, you need serious offence to hurt them
#4 gordjohnson Feb 06, 2009 14:44:13	i'll be playing dark matter, and the players will have light armor at best.
#5 rhialto Feb 06, 2009 17:52:51	Personally, I favour making the entire armour bonus as DR, in addition to providing its usual AC benefit. Swapping out AC for DR makes armour very weak if they do large amounts of damage in a single hit.
#6 gordjohnson Feb 06, 2009 18:02:16	and you feel that wouldnt be overpowered?
#7 gordjohnson Feb 06, 2009 18:10:47	what about halve the ac bonus (rounded up) and give them the normal ac bonus worth of DR? so for an undercover vest (+3) you made it +2 and 3/-? its decided... thats what im doing.
#8 magusblack Feb 06, 2009 19:41:13	Part of the problem with changing it is that you’ll need to change “Natural” armor into Damage Reduction as well, as well as shields (which ultimately would take up a lot more time). Likewise you’d have to increase the most weapons or else everyone will only carry heavy caliber or very large weapons…plus you run into inappropriate armor benefits; like how most modern armors aren’t very effective against various close combat weapons (mostly those that pierce). Your Defense represents how hard it is for opponents to land a solid, damaging blow on you. Also unless you change the definition of what Defense is I don’t really see how it’s a problem, since it implies that if they hit your Defense, you’ve been injured in some manner and the armor is, thus, doing its job in preventing you from being hurt.
#9 gordjohnson Feb 06, 2009 20:26:07	i think it will be fine, we're talking about people who will just be investigators not dragon slayers. most of them wont even have more than light armor if any. they wont be in non stop combat, and they will rarley be able to requisition more than a 9mm. i know they rules are the way they are because they work, but i want to do it my way god damnit!
#10 rhialto Feb 07, 2009 3:48:21	Honestly, giving armour full AC and DR benefits is not overpowered. If you are not expecting combat, anything that isn't concealable is going to get you major penalties in social interaction - when was the last time you saw anyone wearing obvious full body armour in the street? Or even in the rough parts of town for that matter? Most GMs almost completely ignore this. You'd probably have a hard time being allowed in banks, let alone getting served. It'd probably break dress codes at most restaurants too. In a Modern campaign, it shoudl be trivially easy for the GM to arrange for fights where it isn't prtactical for the heroes to be wearing dreadnought suits. And trivially easy for the baddies to be armed to the teeth in those situatiosn where teh heroes are. And dammit, if I' wearing a dreadnought suit, I want to be mowing baddies down liek grass! In combat, the best armour in core rules gives 9 points. That'll pretty much save you from significant hurt from any weapon that doesn't cause a critical hit. The best concealable armour (vest) is 4 points. That's good, but you are still at significant risk of taking significant hp damage, although it'd likely take a longarm to crit you. I would add some flaws though. First, any DR gained from armour should always allow at least 1 hp of damage to go through. (This may require some tweaking - perhaps even to say the most that armour-based DR can stop is half the original damage). Second, archaic and impromptu armours give no DR against ballistic damage. Concealable armours give no DR against piercing damage (they are assumed to be made of ballistic cloth or its equivalent protective concept). Tactical armour gives full DR against all physical damage types.
#11 DwarfFighter Feb 07, 2009 7:48:13	Honestly, giving armour full AC and DR benefits is not overpowered. I know it would be overpowered in my game. -DF
#12 backstabbist Feb 07, 2009 11:32:28	Your Defense represents how hard it is for opponents to land a solid, damaging blow on you. But unfortunately, that concept falls apart with things like Leather Jackets make 5% of tankshells glance off you, or LawRockets, or Ship to ship FusionCannon Wrapping yourself with a good towel is great armor vs a RedRyder BBgun. Is wrapping yourself in a towel decent armor against a 9mm? Cause when we talk 57mm cannon slugs, that +3 Kevlar Vest is on par with a towel for saving you. That may be at the top end, but the bottom end with a 9mm vs Fonzie Jacket is just as silly. Armor is only armor against what it is rated for, since the d20 system doesnt deal with Penetration. The towel is good armor against BBguns and apparently 57mm cannon, just as a leather jacket / +3Kevlar is good against cannons. More effective armor is not that unbalancing, The badguys can wear armor too, fights last longer. It spotlights the lack of Armor prof feats in classes since armor is important. But that dont mean folks cant have a good time playing it. If they want to game with lotsa hits leading to less dieing, sounds like fun.
#13 DwarfFighter Feb 08, 2009 5:34:59	In any situation where you as the GM feel that the rules allow for a resolution that is in no way believable, that is: it is impossible to maintain the suspension of disbelief, it is your right and duty to ignore those rules. Let's say you are resolving the effects of a tank shooting at one of the characters. The rules allow for protective measures: the leather jacket's +1 to Defense and the characters 120 hp. As the GM you can overrule any and all of these measures: You can discount the armour bonus when rolling to hit because there is no way a thin layer of animal hide is going to turn away an explosive shell. You can skip rolling damage and deducting hit points because there is no way a human being can survive that kind of damage. At this point your player is likely to be a bit upset. If he's the kind of player that thinks the rules represent some kind of uncannily accurate reality simulator he'll likely raise hell and call you out for breaking the rules. Hopefully you don't have that kind of players at your table. If your players are reasonable to any degree I am sure they'll agree that taking a tank shell to the chest results in death. Even so it should be upsetting to anyone to hear the GM rule that their character is suddenly dead. Personally I would prefer to resolve the attack as failing to score a direct hit and throw some sharpnel damage at the character instead. -DF
#14 backstabbist Feb 08, 2009 11:58:52	If your players are reasonable to any degree I am sure they'll agree that taking a tank shell to the chest results in death Couple key concepts on that Taking a tankgun round to an unprotected chest indeed will normally (&99% abnornmally) = Death However, taking a 57mm AP tankslug to the left Radius/Ulna is very survivable if your pals are around. Lastly, taking a 57mm HE tankshell to the center of your Vanadium-GravArmor (thick & reduced mass) is very very survivable... this is almost like the Space Suit Armor situation: If we make a SpaceArmor out of kevlar-III & polycarbonate that each can soundly stop a 9mm slug, how do we say it is only a +10 Def that makes you just 50% more resiliant to 9mm? How is that slug getting into the bulletproof suit to hurt you by rolling a high ToHit? or StormTroopers: The whiteparts can be Duraplastic and the black is NIJ-iv kevlar.... so how does a 2d4 22lr hit the guy inside? Cause it aint how a 410mag / 57mm hits him, the highpower stuff simply punches thru that heavy armor like butter while the 22lr bounces off with the same ToHit roll. When bodyarmor is completely dealt with by the ToHit there has to be something that determines if the armor is capable of deflecting or absorbing that hit. First tell me your Def, and I'll roll ToHit then I will tell you if it is a Glock or Abrams120 that your +3Vest just protected you from Hardness10 modern bodyarmor wont help against a 57mm gun but Hardness40 Future Bodyarmor will. Remember this workup of future bodyarmors Holding up a coroplast GarageSale sign shouldnt be "Cover: -4Tohit" because the sign will just get punch thru by guns like it wasnt there just as if it were 16ga Steel / 3mm plexiglass Shield getting punched thru by a 50BMG like it wasnt there or a +10 Forced Entry NIJ-iv getting punched by a Abrams like it wasnt there .... but yet we see the armors helping without regard to what they actualy can help against
#15 TheRealOrion Feb 08, 2009 12:09:03	deleted: off-top (thanks backstabbist)
#16 backstabbist Feb 08, 2009 12:22:15	Orion Please refer to the OP as to what the thread is talking about. He didnt ask for a discussion of the rights & wrongs of using DR for armor instead of RAW, he wanted options on how to do it. True, RAW is not a realistic way to do it. OK. But the OP already said he wanted to step away from that way. We know what he is stepping away from, but where is he stepping to? As for rationaizing any rules you are considering using, you should be able to rationalize as to why. We shouldnt say "XXXX Armor gives YYYY protection" without being able to explain WHY. And I really dont like when the entire rationale for something is Artificial Game Balance
#17 narukagami Feb 08, 2009 13:15:28	butts in Most of the better game systems that use armor as damage reducing protection have different values for ballistic/non-ballistic protection, and give weapons a penetration value.
#18 akodo Feb 08, 2009 15:22:10	I don't think you could convert or derive damage reduction amount based on AC reduction amount. You could create a second system to add on top of the armor. use the AC change to reflect melee combat only. then for ballistic armor, classify it as follows Light = half all pistol and SMG damage. All other firearms ignore this armor. Medium = convert all pistol and SMG damage to 1 point per hit. Shotguns and extremely large pistols (44 magnum, desert eagle) do half damage. All other firearms ignore this armor Heavy = all small arms damage is converted to 1 point per hit, with the following exceptions. Assault rifles and light rifles do half damage. Sniper rifles/medium rifles or AP ammo being used in assault rifles/ight rifles does full damage. Extremely Heavy =all small arms damage is ignored. Sniper rifles/medium rifles using AP ammo do half damage. In addition, roll a D6, if you roll lower than the number of half damage shots taken so far, the armor is considered destroyed. No class of personal armor will interfere with large caliber, anti-material rifles (Barrett M82 etc) Once you determine if a hit has occurred, you then compare armor type to weapon type to see if you even need to bother applying it. These armors do not give full body coverage like a suit of medival full plate (at least not unless you go to a future setting) so you will need a few classifications of coverage, and a roll to determine if the armor is covering the part hit. i'd say. Chest panel = 14+ on D20 Partial vest = 12+ on D20 Full Vest = 10+ on D20 Full Vest + additional parts = 8+ on D20 Full suit ala bomb squad 6+ = on d20 Helmet of the same type or heavier = +2 on the roll Note on chest panel. This is normally an reenforcment to bring the armor up a level (this is how in modern you'd get extra-heavy) Roll once. If you don't score high enough to utilize chest panel's value, keep the same roll and use it for the other armor types present. I.E. Trooper in Full Vest + additional parts with a chest panel. Trooper gets shot. a 10 is rolled. The chest panel is irrelevant, but his full vest of medium armor means the shotgun blast does half damage.
#19 rhialto Feb 08, 2009 16:56:42	simpler solution. Roll 1d6: 1 - head, 2 - body, 3 - left arm, 4 - right arm, 5 - left leg, 6 - right leg. Determine what armour is on that body part, and reduce damage appropriately.
#20 winternova Feb 10, 2009 14:55:45	I've been usuing an 'armor as DR' rule for a while now in my future campaign, and will probably use it for all d20m, as it's a hit with the players. In my system, an armor's equipment bonus halved, and rounded up is the DR. I ran into a few problems, though: Firstly, there was the natural armor bonuses of creatures and robots. I dealt with that by splitting the armor bonus down the middle, with the DR recieving any unequal numbers. Then I hit a problem with touch attacks. I stole a play from the Star Wars RCR, and put my own spin on it: touch attacks ignore half class defense. After that, there were problems with whether or not a target was considered armored or not. I decided that the 'tactical' modifier on armor would be the cutoff point for things like armor piercing rounds and similar picky effects, and that a natural DR of 4 counted as being 'tactical.' Furthermore, some of the heavier armors just weren't worth it. Fior example, the Light Combat Armor of d20f would offer a DR of 2 (equipment bonus +3,) while d20f's Land Warrior Armor would only offer a DR of 3 (equipment bonus +6.) The Land Warrior Armor is damn near useless in comparison! As a result, I gave armors greater than light bonus DR. Medium armor recieves a +1 bonus, heavy gets +2, and powered armor gets +3. I may yet alter the bonuses for heavier armor, but for now I think I've got the kinks worked out pretty well, although I've been thinking about switching to a new system in which light armor yields half equipment bonus rounded down as DR, medium is half rounded up, and heavy and power armors grant the full equipment bonus as DR, though that would make light armor damn near worthless.
#21 akodo Feb 13, 2009 0:03:59	simpler solution. Roll 1d6: 1 - head, 2 - body, 3 - left arm, 4 - right arm, 5 - left leg, 6 - right leg. Determine what armour is on that body part, and reduce damage appropriately. not so simple. Your system would result in 1/6th of all shots being headshots, not realistic in the least. Also, in general while the skull is protected, the face is less protected, the chin hardly protected at all and the neck exposed when wearing a helmet. A small vest covers the core of the chest, while a large vest tends to cover all the chest, and the largest armor comes up and covers the neck, parts for the shoulders, and hangs down protecting the 'man fruits' It still leaves the arms and legs mostly unprotected. In the end you have a basic system of 1 and 2 = hit armor if you wear a helmet, 2 = hit armor with no helmet. Is someone goign to bother with armor that has a 1 in 6 chance of being effective? Also, it doesn't come close to modeling reality nor TV/Action movies, and Modern is supposed to resemble one or the other at least to some degree. I suppose you could go for 1-3= body, 4= head, 5= arms 6=legs and simply have Vest and Helmet available for armor. That would work fine for a system that had Handgun and Rifle for weapons. However, I suspect you will constantly have players unappy that ALL armor is chest, no matter if they get cheapo mall security type or top end military type.
#22 xvgreymanvx Dec 25, 2009 19:44:49	Hello all, this is my first post on the Wiz, so forgive me from butting in... It seems to me that I saw somewhere that the subdual damage for M20 was busted, so looking at this link for DR, I was thinking that if you switch to a system that allows subdual/non-lethal damage to stack, then you can 'somewhat' fix this DR problem by giving each set of armor a rating, as follows: Light armor converts slashing weapons and personal firearms with d4-d6 damage to subdual damage. Piercing/bludgeoning weapons and firearms ranging d8-d12 do full damage. Critical hits always do full lethal damage as normal. Medium armor converts slashing/bludgeoning weapons and personal firearms with d4-d10 damage to subdual damage. Piercing weapons and firearms ranging d12 do full damage. Critical hits always do full lethal damage as normal. Heavy armor converts slashing/bludgeoning weapons and personal firearms from d4-d10 to subdual damage. d12 firearms and piercing weapons do half-damage. Critical hits always do full lethal damage as normal. It seems to me that is can be exploited, but a good DM can make up for this. In a cinematic game, this seems to work about like combat armor in many video games. Eventually you will knock the target out through subdual damage, making coup de grace or capturing easier. (If the characters survive.) This is just a suggestion, not exactly the rules I'd use, but it's an option. Most modern vests (light) do a good job of stopping smaller rounds and ceramic (medium/heavy) can stop high-powered rounds. You generally do wind up with a hell of a bruise and maybe cracked ribs, but that's technically what subdual damage is in the first place. Think about the.... what was it? The West Hollywood Shootout? Those guys in heavy armor just walked through small caliber bullets for like an hour. Another note: If I used DR for my armor, I would give my armor HP and all damage that exceeded the armor's DR would be dealt to both the wearer and the armor itself. Once the armor's HP is exceeded it's DR is reduced by 75% (rounded down, minimum of 0) until repaired.
#23 dulsi Dec 30, 2009 14:43:10	I always thought d20 Modern used armor as DR instead of AC since they had defense bonuses on the classes. Just shows that despite owning the book for a long time I've never ran/played a game. As for XVGreyman's armor suggestions, I like keeping things simple if subdual damage is separate from regular hp damage I'd rather avoid it. It is simpler than some other suggestion but I don't mind the AC system that much. As for giving armor a hp value, that also seem more complex than I'd like.