Wish me and my team luck! Thanks for hanging in there!)
Greetings fellow Moderners, and welcome to my humble thread. Take a seat (if for some reason you aren't sitting), maybe grab some potato chips or whatever other snack you prefer, and read for a bit.
What is this? This is my attempt to fix something that has been pointed out by at least two of the best designers to post their own work on this board: advanced classes. Before someone flames me for saying this, let me say that AdC's are functional in Modern. They don't ruin anything, really. They're simply limited, part of their design, which is somewhat disappointing given the way the basic classes work, and how open-ended they are. The following is my attempt to take advanced classes and, while preserving their purpose (focusing a character), allow the same amount of freedom seen in the existing basic classes.
I will only be "fixing" the Corebook's advanced classes, as I will be cannibalizing several of the ones from D20 Future as options in the "talent trees" for the new and improved Advanced Classes.
So far, I have only finished the physically-oriented advanced classes (and I still need to start/finish Bodyguard's last tree). I'll try to start and finish the mental-oriented classes as soon as I can.
Hope you guys enjoy!
(snipped to preserve what little is left of the material's freshness.)
That's all for now, folks! Hope you enjoyed reading it... and I really hope I've kept the classes relatively balanced. Comments and constructive criticism would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
M.V.
Alright, that should be enough extra space. Feel free to post now.
Point is: IT'S AWESOME! Thanks for creating this.
Although I love the idea, I'm gonna have a few issues with the specifics. They are as follows:
The Soldier Improved Reaction. It seems weird that he needs to be able to help others before being able to react quicker to danger. I would remove the Tactical Aid from the Prereq for Impr Reaction.
The Combat Tech tree isn't very combat'y, apart from Fix It!, which is very good. It seems like stepping on the Engineer/Smartguy's toes, ability-wise.
Nice Soldier, apart from that.
The Martial Artist's Follow Up Strike. Since it's a second strike, would it make more sense to allow a MA to take -2 to hit, and if he hits, make another attack (still at -2)?
Winding Strike "which can be the only attack she makes on her turn". Do you mean "which must be the only attack..."?
Other than that, the MA seems to have been very well-done (except that I'm against dealing 1d8 Lethal with Unarmed, but that's personal).
By the Infiltrator's Hostile Environment, does that mean that the Infil can pick up the item as a free action?
I think Silencing & Dazing Strike needs a duration.
Apart from that, the Infiltrator has definetely been boosted to a worthy-of-taking-levels-in AdC now.
I don't think Nip-Up needs Fearless as a Prereq. It seems a bit off, logically.
As for the bodyguard, Blanket Protection isn't described - what does it do?. As for more talents, I'd suggest stuff like Higher MDT, or an ability that extends the max range required between him and the protected for the Harm's Way ability, or the ability to extend Harm's Way to more targets than one.
First of all, let me say that what you've created here is awesome! I've always wanted to include something like this, mostly thinking about using point-buy systems, or converting something to d20. But what you've done here has unparalleled flexibility as well as focusing the character enough.
Point is: IT'S AWESOME! Thanks for creating this.
Thank you very much for the compliments. I've been working on this since just a little bit before I mentioned it in my Enthusiast feat thread.
Although I love the idea, I'm gonna have a few issues with the specifics. They are as follows:
The Soldier Improved Reaction. It seems weird that he needs to be able to help others before being able to react quicker to danger. I would remove the Tactical Aid from the Prereq for Impr Reaction.
The Combat Tech tree isn't very combat'y, apart from Fix It!, which is very good. It seems like stepping on the Engineer/Smartguy's toes, ability-wise.
Nice Soldier, apart from that.
Naturally I'm not going to get this right on the first try. Thanks for looking into this.
I wasn't thinking too hard about what abilities build up to which when I made all of them; I was only thinking about making the more powerful ones less easily attainable.
What are some suggestions for the Combat Tech's abilities? I thing sabotage isn't treading very far into the Techie's territory, but maybe I'm wrong.
The Martial Artist's Follow Up Strike. Since it's a second strike, would it make more sense to allow a MA to take -2 to hit, and if he hits, make another attack (still at -2)?
Winding Strike "which can be the only attack she makes on her turn". Do you mean "which must be the only attack..."?
Other than that, the MA seems to have been very well-done (except that I'm against dealing 1d8 Lethal with Unarmed, but that's personal).
Follow Up Strike was meant to be like a melee double-tap. If it doesn't make sense, though, I suppose I could change it.
Yes, I meant "must" instead of "can". Fixing that shortly. lol
By the Infiltrator's Hostile Environment, does that mean that the Infil can pick up the item as a free action?
I think Silencing & Dazing Strike needs a duration.
Apart from that, the Infiltrator has definetely been boosted to a worthy-of-taking-levels-in AdC now.
Hostile Environment means that the Infiltrator can make an attack with a nearby item of appropriate size. The intention was that the Infiltrator not need to use his hands to make the attack, though the option would be available (s/he could pick up the chair to hit the opponent... or simply kick it into the enemy's knees - or something to that effect).
As for Silencing and Dazing Strike, I meant to make a duration, but forgot before skipping onto the next ability. Fixing.
I don't think Nip-Up needs Fearless as a Prereq. It seems a bit off, logically.
Probably right there. I'll go through all of the prereques you're picking at and see if there's any reason for them to be there.
As for the bodyguard, Blanket Protection isn't described - what does it do?. As for more talents, I'd suggest stuff like Higher MDT, or an ability that extends the max range required between him and the protected for the Harm's Way ability, or the ability to extend Harm's Way to more targets than one.
I forgot to place "As noted in Bodyguard entry" on Blanket Protection. It's just like it is in the book.
As for the other talents, that might work. I'm thinking a more defensive talent tree might be in order (that way I can make use of the one ability from BG that I left out), but perhaps not. What do you think?
I have but one suggestion:
Armourstuff - Stealthy: instead of giving an actual bonus to hide and move silently, how about just saying that the ACP is reduced by [x] when it comes to hide & MS. Because I can see this being applied to armour without ACP, and I have a hard time seeing how the armour can increase your stealth abilities - although it can, perhaps, not reduce it so much.
2cents.
Looking forward to the rest.
I fixed what you pointed out. I had to modify it a bit, though, to keep it on par with the rest of the modifications.
I still need to finish one last talent tree on Field Medic, and I'm having a hard time thinking of stuff for Investigator. I'm considering stealing a lot from Tracer for one of the talent trees... >>
I'm pretty sure Investigator and Tracer could be easily combined.
What do you think?
As for the Field Medic, here are my suggestions:
Talent Trees:
Medical Specialist Talent Tree:
Show
Medical Specialist
Benefit: +2 on treat Injury checks.
Expert Healer
Prerequisites: Medical Specialist
Benefit: As noted in Field Medic entry.
Minor Medical Miracle
Prerequisites: Expert Healer, Medical Specialist, one other talent from either the Combat Medic or (talent tree) talent trees.
Benefit: As noted in Field Medic entry.
Medical Mastery
Prerequisites: Expert Healer, Medical Specialist, one other talent from either the Combat Medic or (talent tree) talent trees.
Benefit: As noted in field medic entry. Grants an additional +1 to Treat Injury checks.
Medical Miracle
Prerequisites: Expert Healer, Medical Mastery, Minor Medical Miracle, Medical Specialist, one other talent from either the Combat Medic or (talent tree) talent trees.
Benefit: As noted in Field Medic entry.
Medical Specialist
Benefit: +2 on treat Injury checks.
Expert Healer
Prerequisites: Medical Specialist
Benefit: As noted in Field Medic entry.
Minor Medical Miracle
Prerequisites: Expert Healer, Medical Specialist, one other talent from either the Combat Medic or (talent tree) talent trees.
Benefit: As noted in Field Medic entry.
Medical Mastery
Prerequisites: Expert Healer, Medical Specialist, one other talent from either the Combat Medic or (talent tree) talent trees.
Benefit: As noted in field medic entry. Grants an additional +1 to Treat Injury checks.
Medical Miracle
Prerequisites: Expert Healer, Medical Mastery, Minor Medical Miracle, Medical Specialist, one other talent from either the Combat Medic or (talent tree) talent trees.
Benefit: As noted in Field Medic entry.
I'm liking the changes to the second talent tree, as it leaves some neat talents for a third one. Perhaps the third should be more military-oriented, maybe even a mundane "buffer" type tree? That could be interesting...
As for the missing talent in the Field Medic (odd that it shares the name of the class, but I guess it fits), maybe it could allow a medic to perform some uses of Treat Injury as attack actions instead of full-round actions?
I think that increased healing dice (and healing dice size) is kinda the job of the Medical Specialist talent tree, as it already does that.
I await the rest of your critiques and comments. Thanks a bunch for your help here.
Sblocked them. I totally forgot about that. :embarrass
I'm liking the changes to the second talent tree, as it leaves some neat talents for a third one. Perhaps the third should be more military-oriented, maybe even a mundane "buffer" type tree? That could be interesting...
As for the missing talent in the Field Medic (odd that it shares the name of the class, but I guess it fits), maybe it could allow a medic to perform some uses of Treat Injury as attack actions instead of full-round actions?
I think that increased healing dice (and healing dice size) is kinda the job of the Medical Specialist talent tree, as it already does that.
I await the rest of your critiques and comments. Thanks a bunch for your help here.
for the third tree is all I have right now!
Battlefield Triage: The field medic quickly stabilizes the wounded for immediate evac of the area.
Improvised Supplies: When supplies run low a field medic can utilize things within the unit or found after sterilization to treat wounds.
Great, thank you.:D
Mundane Buffer tree sounds good. I think you'll have to note in the description that depending on what type of world/campaign, the Medic will be using different ingredients - drugs, mutagenics, short-lived bio-implants, data chips, etc, but the effect remains the same - perhaps even add a (low) PDC/price to use the talents? Like "using [Talent] requires ingredients worth a PDC of [x], and only the Field Medic knows which ingredients are necessary, where to get them, and how to mix them."
That way, since there is a restriction, you can make the talents a bit more powerful too - and d20Modern (without FX) is in dire need of a buffer.
As for the Investigator, I really can't help you - I've never used it.
But I think we/you should convert (or at least look at) most of the AdCs in the MSRD - as I've said before, it's a great idea!
Tema - Sounds like a plan to me... though the PDCs thing might be a bad idea, kinda reminiscent of the Wizard's/Sorcerer's components. Everyone either forgets about it, or their GM holds them to it so hard that it becomes a pain. To avoid this, I think we should simplify it while still keeping it as a necessity. How about a point system, with a pharmaceutical kit having X-number of points, and each buff taking a different number of points? That way, all we need to do is set a refilling DC for all those supplies and we're good.
Dang... we need to get someone who's actually played an investigator on this thread. lol! I'll see if I can drag one of my players on here to comment. Maybe he can help.
Another thought: Several character concepts would be much more complete if more talents were accessible. Should there be a feat to grant an extra talent in a tree you have already progressed in. I'd mimic the Strong/Fast/Tough...etc Plus feats, but I think two-for-one is a bit too powerful given that these talents actually become considerably more powerful than their prerequisites.
@Anime: Uhm... Perhaps you should state clearly what your proposed talents do - so far, Improvised Supplies look like Improvised Implements, and BfieldTriage isn't described crunch-wise...
:embarrass Yeah sorry about that as I hadn't reread the post/sblocks when I posted... by Improvised Supplies I did mean the character can use everday things found about the campaign; local alcohol=antiseptic/pain killer, blankets/clothes + Boiling water= temporary sterilized bandages for wounds, salvaged enemy supplies, and etcetera.
I am liking the talent trees that Master_Vega has devised so far... maybe it could be a subcatagory to Implements though I don't know why but I see with Improvised Implements using 'Vise Grips' to stem a major arterial bleed...
I guess you're right about the PDC - I usually say that a 1stAid Kit has 1 use, and a Medic Kit has 10. 1st Aid Kits only allow 1stAid - stabilization. So, implementing that rule, I guess [Buff X] could use 2 uses, while [Buff Y] could use 3.
I think a 1 feat for 1 talent seems fair (although they must meet the normal prereqs).
I guess you're right about the PDC - I usually say that a 1stAid Kit has 1 use, and a Medic Kit has 10. 1st Aid Kits only allow 1stAid - stabilization. So, implementing that rule, I guess [Buff X] could use 2 uses, while [Buff Y] could use 3.
I wrote up a quick and dirty system, somewhat resembling 3.5 psionics, though fueled by pharmaceutical kits. :P Check it out; it's with the rest of the talent trees.
The final talent on the tree is going to be the equivalent of the ability boosting spell.
Also, I'm tempted to create a separate feat to allow the Field Medic to gather needed ingredients with a survival check, and from there create the drugs with a craft (pharm) check. I'd of course add feats for the other classes/talent trees if I did this.
I think a 1 feat for 1 talent seems fair (although they must meet the normal prereqs).
My thoughts exactly. When I'm finished with these, I'm going to try and put some characters together to see how well it works. I'll also probably drop it onto the BG boards, though they aren't very modern-focused.
If I were you, I'd try not to create new feats. To be honest, I think I'd houserule (on your houserule), that a Survival check could be made to find the herbs needed, although the price would be doubled when using improvised stuff. This could also be included in Improvised Implements?
Anyway, IMHO, stay away from creating new feats so far (I'm probably going to contradict myself later on).
And nah, BG seems a bit dead ATM...
I have a few projects going on over there (you might wanna check out Tema69's Action Movie Grittiness rules :D), but apart from that, not much is going on.
@AnimeSniper: Reread the Improvised Implements talents, please.
I guess you're right about the PDC - I usually say that a 1stAid Kit has 1 use, and a Medic Kit has 10. 1st Aid Kits only allow 1stAid - stabilization. So, implementing that rule, I guess [Buff X] could use 2 uses, while [Buff Y] could use 3.
I think a 1 feat for 1 talent seems fair (although they must meet the normal prereqs).
:embarrass Sorry about the 'Vise Grips' reference since I was recently bored and was typing some things for a post-apocalypse game with a self trained doc NPC having to use improvised tools and it stuck in my head... that or it was an one of the old apoc movies I watched last night to kill time!
Tema - I'll have to look at your project... I checked the house rule board. Is it somewhere else, or am I just not seeing it?
Anyhow, I'm still waiting for my player to check this out. I sent him an email earlier today, so hopefully he'll have a few comments about Investigator.
Also, I the idea for the Field Medic gathering ingredients, but I'm not sure if I've already put too many new mechanics into that one talent...
Animesniper - It's fine, dude. Just read up on the abilities we've already taken care of and you'll probably figure out what we're missing. Currently, I still need a third tree for Bodyguard and Investigator. Any ideas on that?
Now I get to move onto Personality and Negotiator... neither of which have I played. Any ideas, guys?
My project can be found here:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2528.0
You might want to download the PDF (there's a link at the bottom of the OP, but it can also be found here: http://www.megaupload.com/dk/?d=1GHP0M9E).
Aha! I've played a Negotiator, and I'm GM'ing a 10th level Personality PC. I'll have to get back to this later - I'm supposed to work on my assignment. :P
Edit: fixed the link.
Anyhow, I don't mind waiting for any advice you or your player can give. It's not like this has a due date.
Also, about your gritty rules. I'll look into it in a bit. I don't have an account registered on that download site.
You don't need an account on megaupload. Just type in the 2-4 letters on the left and you're go.
EDIT: the link on the other thread works.
Good luck on the assignment.
I found a nice little trick when using Megaupload.
Make sure you have a download manager and are well-versed in using it. I like using DownThemAll for Firefox.
Key in the confirmation code and wait for the time to count down. Once you see the "Free Download" button turn grey, right click and choose "Copy Link Location.
Add the link to your download manager and hit download. The only limit I know of is that it only works for 1 file at a time. I don't know if the daily limit applies or not. Enjoy your "free" premium!
And this all looks great. When it's complete, I'll make a .pdf for it (if you don't want to).
Also, I'd appreciate it if you made the PDF. I have no experience in that matter. Thanks for the support.
And thanks, I fear I'm gonna need it.
I've PDF'ed a few things now, so I'll volunteer too.
In all cases, if it's okay with you, MasterVega, I'd like to include this when finished in my compilation of houserules I use - which is the Action Movie Grittiness file I've linked you to.
You'll get the credit, of course.
As for incorporating this work into your compilation of rules, that's just fine by me. Thanks for showing as much interest as you have.
Anyhow, I'm currently working on the Mage. It's going smoothly, though I won't be finished with it until tomorrow as I'm about to leave for work. Boo for holiday hours. >_>
Note: one other issue I'm going to try and tackle is making the Occultist playable beside the Mage. I'm not sure how I'll do it, but it should be possible without making the class too powerful in a non-urban arcana setting.
Anyway, that's not the point of this. How are you planning of making d20 Spells into talents? I think it is important to translate them into talents, and not keep it as a fixed "increase by X per level", to balance the whole system here.
Thing is that, with how low-powered the spells are in modern, many modern day items can perform the same functions as the spells multiple times a day. Now if the Mage got the same level 1-5 spells as a D&D Wizard, that would be worth a separate talent tree in itself, but as it is now... I don't think it's fair for the Wizard to be limited to just having its spells and maybe a couple of talents.
If you really think that the Mage's spells should be a talent tree, I'd say the class should be renamed, and rolled in with the Occultist like you suggested.
BUT, I'd suggest making a single Occultist/Mage class, and giving him a Spell Talent Tree as well as the other talent trees.
Heh, I kinda was just going to give the class a spell progression, with different talents to accent the class's abilities (a power caster, a ritual caster [someone who can cast an unlimited number of select low-level spells], and an item creator.)
Thing is that, with how low-powered the spells are in modern, many modern day items can perform the same functions as the spells multiple times a day. Now if the Mage got the same level 1-5 spells as a D&D Wizard, that would be worth a separate talent tree in itself, but as it is now... I don't think it's fair for the Wizard to be limited to just having its spells and maybe a couple of talents.
If you really think that the Mage's spells should be a talent tree, I'd say the class should be renamed, and rolled in with the Occultist like you suggested.
Hm... If you like some of the spells from D&D, why not work them into Modern? You're talking about creating talent trees anyway, right? So why not create a tree allowing a Mage access to a select list of D&D spells?
The list could be spells that don't show up in Modern or you could have "Improved" versions of Modern spells which are just unmodified D&D counterparts.
Also, if you're thinking about making Occultist and Mage into the same class, are there going to be talent trees that help define the separate paths/version of the character? Something that says "I play a 'X' which feels like the Occultist I used to have."
If I do roll mage and Occultist into the same class, I will indeed have one talent tree that goes for the Occultist's feel... if I can accomplish that with one talent tree.
If I make spell progressions into talents, then it's going to look weird, as the only way to do that (other than perhaps just giving them a spell progression as a single talent, which is kinda unbalanced), is to have each talent increase the level of spell the mage can cast... and with a talent increase rate equal to all other advanced classes, the mage will have first and second level spells by second level, third by fourth level, and fifth by tenth. That's just funky.
I suppose I could add the notation "Even when he takes this talent, a mage may only cast spells equal to 1/2 his mage level, rounded up." If that was the case, I'd most certainly want to allow the D&D PHB Wizard spell list to keep this balanced.
I'd also have to find a way to make a spell chart work... ugh.
I think I might just have to make a Mage class with a blanket spell progression, and then modify it from there. Otherwise it just doesn't work well.
I'm going to think on this for a bit (and I happen to be leaving for work very soon.)
If I do roll mage and Occultist into the same class, I will indeed have one talent tree that goes for the Occultist's feel... if I can accomplish that with one talent tree.
If I make spell progressions into talents, then it's going to look weird, as the only way to do that (other than perhaps just giving them a spell progression as a single talent, which is kinda unbalanced), is to have each talent increase the level of spell the mage can cast... and with a talent increase rate equal to all other advanced classes, the mage will have first and second level spells by second level, third by fourth level, and fifth by tenth. That's just funky.
I suppose I could add the notation "Even when he takes this talent, a mage may only cast spells equal to 1/2 his mage level, rounded up." If that was the case, I'd most certainly want to allow the D&D PHB Wizard spell list to keep this balanced.
I'd also have to find a way to make a spell chart work... ugh.
I think I might just have to make a Mage class with a blanket spell progression, and then modify it from there. Otherwise it just doesn't work well.
You could get by with that notation.
Spells could be made into talents by doing a "Lesser -> Normal -> Greater" progression for each spell, but for those that don't have Lesser or Greater versions, you'd have to do a bit more work on them to help with balance.
If you're familiar with Green Ronin's Master Class series (like "The Psychic's Handbook," for example) something like that may work. It uses a Feat/Skill system where you take a feat to get access to the appropriate skill, instead of the usual spell system. Perhaps that could come in useful...
Thanks for the ideas, and I'll try to think of something.
shinobi_guyver - I'm actually not familiar with that series, but the idea sounds neat.
See, not every character concept should have to take levels in Mage/Acolyte or Telepath/Battlemind to get their powers... and often Wild Talent or whatever the magical equivalent is isn't enough to express their character concept.
I think I'm going to take a page from WoD's Second Sight, and what I'm guessing the doc shinobi brought up is about, and make feats to progress magical and psionic talents independent of classes.
That said, I'm not going to get rid of magic/psionic classes. They're the fast track, sacrificing other advantages for more powerful and available arcana/divine power/psionics.
Sound like a plan?
After thinking about this some more, should I simply create special abilities such as innate magic and psionics as feats, keeping them balanced with, but not limiting them to existing spells/powers? Meaning a character could take a pyrokinesis chain, and gain different new benefits instead of being forced to take Light, then Burning hands, and then the next fire spell.
Also, should I make feat-powers/spells encounterly as opposed to daily? Maybe psi-feats grant a pool of power points that can be exhausted each encounter, and spell-feats grant a number of slots per encounter?
that way the PC may take accessing newer abilities based maybe on a concentration + Wis/Int + 1/2 total level that tells them when/how long it takes them to master a spell/power... And maybe half their total fort lets them know how many they have to use meaning they could use all 7 in one battle
And what about side effects of using their powers; nosebleeds, headaches, etcetera as a side effect if they try mastering a spell/power to fast or more then the can or they get into combat with a more advanced user.
Goodness, this project is going to get big... lol!
Any more ideas before I get to work?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psi_Ops
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psionics_(role-playing_games)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&search=electrokinesis&fulltext=Search&ns0=1&redirs=0
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Master_Vega, just out of curiosity, do you happen to create game material for a company or something?
You do a great job homebrewing things.
Just as soon as you finish getting everything together in this thread, I'll compile it as a .pdf for you, let me know if you want a logo/image/whatever. If you have everything in a MSWord/text/etc file, that would help speed things up once you're finished.
o-0
Master_Vega, just out of curiosity, do you happen to create game material for a company or something?
I wish, man. I wish.
You do a great job homebrewing things.
Thanks so much for the compliment. You guys help me a lot, you know. I couldn't and wouldn't do this if it weren't for everyone's feedback. I'm going to edit in a special thanks section into the second post next time I end up adding something in.
Just as soon as you finish getting everything together in this thread, I'll compile it as a .pdf for you, let me know if you want a logo/image/whatever. If you have everything in a MSWord/text/etc file, that would help speed things up once you're finished.
Well, I'm currently writing this on multiple computers, so it's on a set of Gdocs, like most of my houserules, at the moment. I could put it into a word doc... as soon as I get MS office or some free equivalent.
EDIT: Oh, and I'm still going to need some help on Investigator, Negotiator and Personality. If you guys have any ideas on that, I'd really, really appreciate them.
I'm finishing my school project in 4-5 days (if I can stop procrastinating and getting headaches from constantly being in front of a computer - I guess I'm not a big enough geek to be immune to that :D ), so I can sit down and put some serious work into the Negotiator and Personality. Till then, I'm just lurking, procrastinating and posting short comments.
Also, I think I've found a decent balance point for FX: lasting effects require an attack action - not a move action, not a swift action concentration check - to uphold. This makes the effects, while powerful, balanced due to the vulnerability of the caster... or at least I think it does. What do you guys think?
Also, thanks again for the compliments. I'm looking forward to further input.
Oh, also, look up at the post before my last. ;)
As of right now, I'm currently planning on only re-doing the core advanced classes... but as I'm going along, I'm seeing several advanced classes from the other books that I'll have to redo, and other classes I'll need to create from scratch for the sake of filling different niches.
I'm not going to lie do you; I won't be recreating all of the Future classes, at least not under my current plans. I've already cannibalized/outmoded a few of the classes from Future (Field Officer, mostly, but I have taken a bite out of Engineer and Tracer). I suppose I could redo Engineer, and I might, but I'll have to make it unique from what I've made the Techie into.
Also, expect any D20Future classes I redo to be rebalanced a bit (kinda like what I did with Martial Artist)
As for D20Apocalypse, if I do end up redoing anything from there, I won't be able to post it here due to the fact that - as far as I know - it's not covered by the OGL. That and I (sadly) do not own the book. My friend does, though.
Hopefully I haven't disappointed anyone.
So, before I create the feats - which I must do before creating the class features -, I have a question: Should this particular set of feats require a strong physical attribute as opposed to a strong mental attribute? Does that fit, or not fit the flavor at all?
Thanks!
EDIT: Also, I'm considering changing the rules for regaining psi-points to allow the character to only gain their character-level in points per hour of meditation (or all of them with eight ours of sleep.) How's that sound balance-wise?
Regaining Psi-Points equal to your level per hour of meditation (and restoring all of them with 8 hours of rest) makes more sense than getting them all back for just an hour of meditation.
Cuts down on spamming a character's strongest power that takes all their points once every hour.
Player: "I use power X and use all my points for it."
DM: "Okay. They're all dead. Now do you...."
Player: "Hold it, I want to meditate for an hour."
DM: "Why?"
Player: "To get all my Psi-points back, of course."
DM: "/)_-"
DM: "No."
Also, as for the strong physical attribute vs strong mental attribute, Psychometabolism affects a physical body more than a mind, so having a high physical score could allow the user's body to endure the strain of the changes the user is suddenly causing.
And thanks for the feedback on the phsychometabolism question. I think I'll go with that.
I'd be interested to see how you handle mages as well. I think the idea of combining Occultist, Mage, and the one form d20 Past (the seice person, forget the name) into one ADv Class might work. Big question is, do you keep the Vancian Magic style or make your own?
Glad you enjoy the new adjustments I'm making. I'm not entirely sure what I'll do with magic. It won't be like psionics, though... I want it to feel and act different. If it requires feats, and I think at least some should be accessible that way so characters besides "mages" can have a few tricks up their sleeve, I'll need to find a different way to implement it.
I've never been a big fan of the Vancian magic system... I think I may take a (single) page from D&D4E and mage the simpler works of magic unlimited, but somewhat time-consuming.
I'm going to try and stay away from the "strain" methods, as that sort of thing is a bit difficult to balance. Give me some time to think about it, and I'll hopefully come up with something. Of course, ideas are always welcome.
As for combining the D20Past class in with Mage and occultist, I sadly do not own D20Past... so I probably won't be able to do that. Rest assured, however, that I'll try my best to make each talent tree unique, interesting, and worth taking.
In the meantime, I'm still working on the Psion class; almost done.
The Psion advanced class has been edited into my second post on this thread. What do you guys think? I tried to make a class that molded the Telepath and Battlemind into one... with a little bit of D&D's Psychic Warrior. I'm kinda worried about the tree's being unbalanced with each other (and possibly other talent trees), but I'll leave the judging up to you guys.
Thanks for sticking with me so far. :D
Personality and Negotiator, huh?
And yeah, personality and negotiator. I haven't played either before, nor have I seen them played, so I'm not exactly sure what they need.
So, Personality is pretty cool I think, although some kind of Personality not necessarily related to Perform would be good. A PC of mine uses it as a Noble-type class in a steampunkish setting, and the Perform part is a bit weird - we've created the Perform (Oratory) [speeches, mainly] skill to allow her to not be a musician/comedian. :P
Anyway, I think the Personality is a pretty cool class, but the fact that it sucks hugely in combat makes it a unattractive class in most games IMHO. Perhaps combine it with the Mastermind Prestige Class from the d20 Modern Web Enhancement - minions, mainly, would be cool.
Otherwise, the Negotiator is pretty cool - I enjoyed it a lot when I played a 10th lvl Negotiator for a few sessions. I'd suggest some sort of rule for loudspeakers should be in order for the Talk Down Ability though. Like, regular, handheld loudspeakers double the range, bigger ones triple, and huge vehicle-mounted ones quadruple (or whatever) it - after all, the illustration of the negotiator is wielding one...
Apart from that, both AdCs work pretty well I think.
Personality:
Compelling Performance talent tree (inspiration abilities)
Fan Following talent tree (sidekicks, boosts to sidekicks)
Fame and Fortune talent tree (unlimited access and wealth-oriented talents.)
Negotiator:
Talk Down talent tree (Talk Down, Sew Distrust, etc...)
Talk Through talent tree (Remove mental status effects from allies, give resistance to mental/physical effects? [too close to personality?])
Distraction talent tree (Conceal Motive, React First, get enemies flatfooted and drop them.)
Like them? Have any ideas you like better?
Edit: The other stuff looks good.
Alright, how about some ideas for different talent trees?
Personality:
Compelling Performance talent tree (inspiration abilities)
Fan Following talent tree (sidekicks, boosts to sidekicks)
Fame and Fortune talent tree (unlimited access and wealth-oriented talents.)
Negotiator:
Talk Down talent tree (Talk Down, Sew Distrust, etc...)
Talk Through talent tree (Remove mental status effects from allies, give resistance to mental/physical effects? [too close to personality?])
Distraction talent tree (Conceal Motive, React First, get enemies flatfooted and drop them.)
Like them? Have any ideas you like better?
Yay minions!
This is looking more like what Personality and Negotiator should be.
And except for when Magic/Psi is used, I can't remember there being any real buff abilities for the core classes, so those are nice to see.
Hope you guys like it. :D
Oh, and Tema: it looks like the Negotiator already has a note about bullhorns and the like. It's noted in "Talk Down".
Now all that's left are the FX-related classes, and some I'll create/import as needed... a redo of the Magic system, finishing the new psionics system, possibly fixing some of the more annoying aspects of Modern combat...
Bah, screw it. This is a never-ending project. :P It may slow down some when I start taking classes in the Spring, though, so bear with me.
Either prior to the start of hostilities or during combat, the Negotiator can talk down a single opponent within 15ft or otherwise able to hear his voice (if the Negotiator is speaking through a bullhorn, for instance).
The exception is shown there. Did you want concrete rules on ranges?
The exception is shown there. Did you want concrete rules on ranges?
Having concrete rules on range bonuses/whatever due to bullhorns/etc sounds like it would come in handy.
It would avoid the "Can he hear me now?" scenario. Sure, you might be able to hear the noise, but could you make sense of it? Too far away and it'll be faint/garbled/whatever yet too close and you're liable to go deaf.
Yea, concrete ranges would be good. Otherwise it can lead to a lot of trouble. I'd say, being an ex-activist here in Denmark, that you can easily hear a police officer with a bullhorn from 150+ ft. So man-portable bull-horns range x10, vehicle-portable range x20?
I picked out two typos and told you about them via chat.
Also, to talk down an insane amount of enemies, you'd have to be level 13+, and at 13+, you can usually do all kinds of crazy stuff.
And remember that using a loudspeaker probably will attract the attention of anyone nearby - people that are not in combat, but still hostile to the PC...
I'd say this mirrors the military Psy-Op character - but we'd have to consult with Hinthas (he used to be one).
You're right about it becoming a bit overpowered. How about man-portable x5 range, and vehicle-mounted x10 range?
Also, to talk down an insane amount of enemies, you'd have to be level 13+, and at 13+, you can usually do all kinds of crazy stuff.
Yeah, but can anyone else pacify an army? The new ranges stop this from happening, but the old ranges would just be insane. :P
And remember that using a loudspeaker probably will attract the attention of anyone nearby - people that are not in combat, but still hostile to the PC...
I'd say this mirrors the military Psy-Op character - but we'd have to consult with Hinthas (he used to be one).
I didn't know that. Is he on often?
Also: I'm traveling down to my aunt and uncle's today (I really, really didn't want to travel on Christmas Eve...) and I probably won't have regular access to a computer - at least not without getting nagged at. It's pretty safe to assume I won't be posting for the next four or so days. :P
Merry Christmas in advance.
Oh yea, you yanks with the 25th Dec instead of the 24th.
(Just got back from christmas dinner with the whole charade - I'm European, we do christmas differently :D).
So, merry christmas to those of you who celebrate that.
Also, yeah, Christmas is done differently prettymuch everywhere you go. Local traditions can be a lot of fun, or just odd...
Buuut back on topic, I still need to make the mage class (which might double as an acolyte as well considering the available feats), and the shadowslayer class.
Any particular requests after that, either for classes that have already been written up or for classes that you'd like me to make (please note the niche[s] you'd like it to fill)?
Perhaps we should make a quick list of what classes cover what niches, so we have an idea of what is left?
The Techie, for example, now covers some of the Engineer stuff, etc...
Edit: Oh, and I'm in Athens, so computer access is limited. :P
Soldier - medium-heavy firearms combatant, tactician, quick-repairs
Martial Artist - Brawler, melee-debuffer, melee-flurry
Gunslinger - light-medium firearms combatant, ranged cover-denial, ranged self-buffer
Infiltrator - improviser, sneak-attacker, recon
Daredevil - El Tanko-grande, attribute self-buffer, charger
Bodyguard - Human shield, watchman, defensive fighter
Field Scientist - Researcher, int-fighter, McGyver
Techie - Army-crafter, tech-booster, mastercrafter
Field Medic - Expert Medic, Field Band-aid, Dedicated buffer
Investigator - Tracker, social investigator
Personality - Buffer/debuffer, minion-commander, affluent diplomancer
Negotiator - Battle diplomancer, status healer/buffer, smooth-talking-ambusher
Psion - Psi-focus, psi-tank, psi-blade
I just added the basic niches each talent tree is specifically designed for. If you can think of any other ones that are covered by the new talents, please list them.
It's currently only on a Gdoc, as I'm tired and don't feel like doing the tedious work of relocating the tables to the forums, but I'll get around to it if you guy's mind having to leave the site to look at it.
What do you think?
Just finished the Slayer, a replacement for the Shadow Slayer. Hope you guys enjoy it. Stay tuned for a mutation-based class.
This should be fun... and a challenge to not make uber-breakable...
Just added the Mutant.
Vega's Back!!!!!!!!!!!!
The new additions look great and after reading over the Mutant a few times, I don't think you have to worry about it being broken =D
Looking Good and tell me when you have everything finished cause I can save Word Docs as a PDF now... anyways I am thinking of allowing this when my normal D&D group gives me the okay for my D&D Modern campaign... Paladins with Assault Rifle access with orcs, elves, and drow... god help me if I survive.
I think the orcs, elves, and drow should be more worried than you.
Unless you're in charge of a large group of powergamers, then you should probably worry.
Glad to see you guys post again; I thought you'd lost interest. *shrugs*
Anime, thanks for the offer. I think that's three people wanting to PDF this sucker when it's done. XD Good luck on your game, if/when it happens, and I'd really appreciate it if you could tell me how it goes.
Oh, and are you allowing all of this content, or just specific classes that fit the era/concept?
Also: I've decided that the core project will be "done" when I finish the basic list of Magic and Psionic feats (which I'll begin working on again soon). I do plan to keep adding content when I can think of new stuff, though - I have an interesting idea for a skill-trick-ish acrobat/freerunner class.
I can't think of anything for the Investigator's third talent tree, unfortunately.
Shinobi, good to hear. I hope you're right. I thought about allowing the Mutant to shift more MP at a time, but decided against it; this way he won't be able to get a bunch of extremely powerful mutations through the class. This one is another one I couldn't think of another talent tree for.
Thanks again for the replies! Here's hoping I can get this stuff done and ready for its first playtest before my classes start!
In any case, I've added more spells, as well as the remaining list of spells I have yet to start/finish. If you guys have any ideas for the above, please feel free to say something.
I may be making this more complicated then needed?
yar.
Wouldn't it be more appropriate to make hybrid feat trees?
Maybe I'm missing something. Could you explain your idea more? Also, glad you appreciate what we've done here.
Anyways I've also saved the New Magic data and when new stuff is added I'll save it and when it is complete in to a PDF...
The Mage, Slayer, and Mutant are not classes from the D20Modern corebook, but the first to are made to replace the Cleric, Mage, Occultist and Shadowslayer.
The Mutant was just for fun. :P
Also: I really do need to finish spells and psionics, though. Anything you'd like to see, or take on yourselves?
I'll also try to collate some skills for them and put them past you... I could also put pass the word docs before PDF-ing them to you Master Vega if you want the text/etcetera changed any... maybe a coverpage
Remote Viewing for the Psionic class... limit the distance you can go before being pulled back, certain anti-psionic material wouldn't allow that power to do damage (kinda Like spell immunity)
However, Remote Viewing would make a good feat. Do you think the concept is different enough from scrying/far sight?
Remember that psionic powers aren't tied to classes, but are instead feats.
However, Remote Viewing would make a good feat. Do you think the concept is different enough from scrying/far sight?
I see Remote Viewing having a limited range. It feels like a starter version of Astral Projection. Your astral form has no actual form and you can only see through it. If you wanted, this could lead into some Astral Projection abilities. (BTW, I don't have UA with me at the moment, so I can't remember if it details Astral Projection or not.)
Scrying/Far Sight on the other hand would be like using a crystal ball to see something across the world.
It's a tin can and string vs a satellite phone, they both work at the same thing (communication), but they do so in different ways.
Did that make any sense? I hope so... >.>
I guess remote viewing would be different enough, though.
While you have a good point, I think you should take a look at Far-Sight as I've detailed it in the previous page. The user essentially zooms in with his natural vision.
I guess remote viewing would be different enough, though.
Holy crap! I didn't even notice you posted spells!
Far Sight as written sounds like it's more for snipers and it is apparently line-of-sight to the target only. So that means you'd have to see the target first, then designate it, then activate/cast Far Sight to see it better.
Remote Viewing/Astral Projection has a more Psionic flare/flavor and you already have scrying. If it's not already in UA, it'd probably make an interesting power...
Added a Telepathy Psionic feat chain. I'll start work on the remote viewing feats soon. I think I'll roll them in with Astral Projection as well...
Anyhow, enjoy. :D
I am currently trying to design a setting and story for a solo game, and I'd love to use your new system here. If anyone gets the chance to compile together the finished article I'd appreciate a copy if that's alright.
Thanks and much love,
Fletch X
Thanks for the feedback, guys, and I look forward to seeing what you guy have to say.
I may put the stuff that was here back on, though. It's kinda a lost cause so far as publishing is concerned...
Any thoughts/opinions? If you guys really, really want this stuff back, I might be able to put it back on...
Anyhow, sweet PDF of selective stuff may be in order anyway. I'll try and keep you guys posted on that. Maybe once this whole expansion gig gets far enough my team and I will start recruiting playtesters and whatnot...
Thanks again for looking at this old thread. Here's hoping I can actually get the project moving again.
I don't have a PDF yet, or a PDF maker to my knowledge, but I'll see what I can put together for a few of you guys. It might just be a bunch of links to Gdocs. Funny thing is that the most elegantly I've presented these changes was on this board making liberal use of the spoiler function. lol
If nothing else, I'll just improve the format of some existing docs and invite a few of you as viewers.
EDIT: Animesniper was working on a PDF until I stopped posting the material here. I wonder if he still has that...
If you want to make it look nice, you could format it all in OpenOffice and use the native PDF exporting function, and then use an extension (easily downloaded) to export to GDocs, so that it's still available on-line.
Open Office has a lot of PDF-friendly export options, too. That's what I use to general Phoenix, and in the most recent version, I have auto-generated bookmarks, auto-generated tables of contents and indexes of tables, and internal links, so that if you mouse over any mention of the power "Energy Attack," you can then click to the description in its chapter. It's kinda awesome, actually.
I downloaded the Open Office suite a while ago, lemme see what I can do with it.
Ps. What do you think of the Gdoc version, or are you holding out until I make the PDF?
By the way, MS Word has one-touch PDF generation as well, I think. I just haven't used in a couple of years so I don't know if/how to do all the fancy bookmarking and field generation and stuff.
Oh, and Open Office just put out a new version, 3.1, so if you're going to give it a whirl, you might as well grab the most recent iteration. It's pretty cheap at the low low cost of "free," so you might as well keep up with the upgrades.
(Don't mind me. I'm a bit of an open-source pusher. You are using Mozilla, right?)
I'm pretty sure my team won't mind (though I'll contact them about it anyway).
When I'm done working on it, I'll probably post it in a new thread. Thanks again to everyone who's helped by giving feedback and ideas. I wouldn't have worked so much on this project if it wasn't for you guys.
Stay tuned for a .zip doc collection or a PDF... or a PDF in a .zip. :P
Also, I think talent trees would be nice to have in Phoenix because PCs need to be able to function without using their powers. They'll also help low-power superheroes, who will not be able to lean as much on their powers.
BTW: the team working on this expansion so far consists of: Animesniper, shinobi_guyver, and me.
Backstabbist - You never really specified if you were on board or not... not that the project is going anywhere right now. >_>
What I'd like to do is use what you guys have whipped up and add CP costs to it all, so that, as you say, the non-powered hero can buy them and remain competitive without having to resort to actual powers. Please do put it to the team! I'd love to include it. If they're not comfortable with that (which I would entirely understand!), then perhaps I could just link to it somehow?
Starting work on reworking basic classes. Mainly fixes, but also adjustments for consistency with the rest of the system... as well as new talents. ;)