Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 senko Mar 05, 2009 18:02:22	I was just wondering if I'm the only person who doesn't like the skill consolidation in D20 Modern. Its not a major issue I just prefer that even though a player know's everything their is to know about say genetics they wouldn't necessarily have a similar depth of knowledge when it comes to geology (a very different science). With the current system you put ranks in Earth and Life sciences and suddenly your an expert on everything under teh sun. Whereas having it more divided gives you a reason to seek out that paleantology expert because your smart character only know's about foresnic science and genetics. Pretty much everyone in my area prefers the skill consolodation but I can't be the only one who likes a more divided skill set am I?
#2 AnimeSniper Mar 05, 2009 18:06:11	I see and understand the diversity of a non consolidated skills list... things would get a bit lengthy over time but maybe if it was say Knowledge: Electronics {Artificial Intelligence} with the {} being the most knowledgeable area
#3 senko Mar 05, 2009 18:18:00	Oh sure it would get lengthy which I suspect is why so many prefer this way, I just prefer the fact that you don't have the ability to learn something about everything under the sun (even if not well) by spending a mere 15 skill points (30 if cross class). I mean if you had 18 int 1 rank would give you a modifer of +5 enough to potentially answer even very hard questions. I suppose you could do a ranking system e.g. you purchase knoledge "Earth and Life Sciences" (Biology) which lets you make a knowledge check on all the things in that category. Biology you add your full skill modifier everything else you make a check at -4 instead of the normal no check for untrained. For every 5 ranks purchased you select another category that you make at a full check modifier. So with a rank of 1 to 4 you'd only be good at biology but you could answer more general questions about other things (nothing harder than a 16) when you get to 5 or 6 ranks you select say "Foresnsics" and then you can answer complex questions about biology and foresnics. At 10 or 11 ranks you select geology and so on.
#4 TheRealOrion Mar 06, 2009 2:09:58	I'm bothered by further consolidation, but the spread in d20M is realistic enough for the kinds of games that I run: action movie/superhero comic-book. "Super-geniuses" always know everything about everything, but your mileage may vary. I do like the idea of picking a speciality, though, and taking a penalty for anything else and/or a bonus for your speciality. That's a cool idea.
#5 AnimeSniper Mar 06, 2009 13:20:06	I'm bothered by further consolidation, but the spread in d20M is realistic enough for the kinds of games that I run: action movie/superhero comic-book. "Super-geniuses" always know everything about everything, but your mileage may vary. I do like the idea of picking a speciality, though, and taking a penalty for anything else and/or a bonus for your speciality. That's a cool idea. So Your character specializes his/her knowledge in one field i.e. Knowledge: Physics {Quantum Physics} or Knowledge: Electronics {Artificial Intelligence} and takes their full modifier when related to those checks and say half for any other check related to their Knowledge group.... and a penalty if the check is only vaguely related to the skill you have... The same could be said for Knowledge: Geology {Metallurgy} and you get a DC reduction for say when you go to buy that armor plating for your Mecha... 'I see you know your metals kid so I'll give you a discount on that bulk armor plate for ya!'
#6 Master_Vega Mar 06, 2009 14:17:39	Contrarily, you could take a page from World of Darkness and have the skill specialties grant a bonus to rolls that qualify for them. Of course WoD is designed with this in mind, so you'd need to alter DCs to balance things out. Your subtraction route, I think it'd be fair to have smaller penalties for knowledge that doesn't necessarily pertain to your specialty... but is close enough that your specialty would help - kinda like a synergy bonus. You may also want to add feats (and maybe a talent tree or three) that grant you X# of specialties or specialties in X skill. Just my 2 cents.
#7 TheRealOrion Mar 06, 2009 14:32:22	Shadowrun's skill system is unnecessarily finicky, I think but still interesting. To explain the rules in d20 terms, let's say you have 5 ranks in "Life Sciences" (we'll ignore other bonuses for now). That costs you 5 Skill Points. You could then, under a Shadowrun-like system, specialise in that skill, get a higher score in a narrower area, and for fewer points. So let's say you spend 2 Skill Points. That would get you a 4 ranks in "Life Sciences (human biology)." General Life Sciences would still be at 5 ranks, but Human Biology would be a 9 ranks. It would look like this: Skill: Life Sciences (human biology) 5/9. You could tweak the math (i.e., how many specialise ranks a skill point buys), and you could specialise even further, if you want to: Skill: Life Sciences (human biology; endocrinology) 5/9/17 This kind of things is the exact opposite of consolidation and it would be a huge pain to make NPCs, but for PCs it might create a route to really high skills in very narrow areas, so that you can now have a super-genius computer scientist who's a total knob at everything else. In Shadowrun, combat stats are based on skills as well, so that's how you can specialise in a particular weapon (e.g., "Firearms (personal, revolver, .44 Magnum) 4/8/12."). It's a very different system, though. There are no classes, just different things you can specialise in and thus create a certain kind of archetype. (That's all from memory, though, so I could be getting the details wrong.)
#8 MechaPilot Mar 06, 2009 22:30:09	I'm not really bothered by skill consolidation. IMO characters are heroes that should be able to do a lot of stuff. I did have a player who claimed it hindered his suspension of disbelief. The problem was easily solved by allowing that player to limit his knowledge skills to specific fields. I get that some people might feel cheated by this, my friend did not. For those who do have this problem, simply change each skill point put into knowledge into a set amount of knowledge points. points that can only be used on knowledge skills.
#9 senko Mar 07, 2009 3:56:44	I'd have a problem with any system that gives bonuses since its already possible to get to the point where you know everything under the sun. To me the safer approach would be use the full check bonus for your skill with say half that to checks of a similar nature and a quarter to anything else in the field. So to use your example knowledge Life Sciences "Endocrinology" gets the +17 which is your base skill (high level character), Knowledge Life Sciences "Biology" would be half that rounded down or +8 because you know something about it (need to for your field) but you aren't as specialized in it as you are in Endocrinolgoy and any other Life Sciences would be at a quarter or +4. Rather than your base skill being five and your specializing up to 17 in a narrow field. Perhaps if you combine that with picking a specialty every 5? ranks it would do a decent job of representing a high level characters range of knowledge while restricting them from knowing everything. So to use the above character they'd have chosen endocrinology as their first speciality (ranks 1-5, and presumably other ones at ranks 6-10, 11-15 and 16-20) with a +17 (+21 with a high int) to endocrinology their routinely able to answer extremely difficult difficulties on endocrinology and almost always able to answer more general questions (+8 or +12 with a high int) but only rarely able to answer medium to hard questions on paleantology (+4 or +8 with a high int) because they're interested in human biology not dead lizards. Another option is to in addition to the above is to restrict the int and possibly other modifers to just the specialities so the above character would have +21 for endocrinology (and other specialities), +8 for biology or other similar fields and +4 for anything else. I do like this idea actually might try it in the next game.
#10 TheRealOrion Mar 07, 2009 11:48:55	I don't find that having too much knowledge is a problem for my games. If anything, I'm hoping that they will pass their knowledge checks most of the time because it moves the plot forward. Are you finding that PC knowledge is is a detriment to your games?
#11 penchant Mar 07, 2009 14:33:43	I approve of consolidation on those skills that make sense to. Consolidating those skills that are always paired makes sense like Hide and Move silently into Stealth or Spot and Listen into Perception (as in Pathfinder beta). These things really don't need to be separate since the times when one matters more than the other are infrequent. That said, I don't think the skill list in general needs to shrink. I would like to see an expansion of the skill systems to make them more useful, both in and out of combat.
#12 senko Mar 07, 2009 19:16:32	I agree with that consolidating things like spot and listen I've no problem with especially as on the few occasions where one matters more than the other its still a perception check just a different one. I'd like to see more out of combat skills myself and maybe a few in-combat ones although I tend to go to feats/other abilities there myself e.g. allowing parry (for melee attacks only, toying with requiring a feat although it does't seem right to me) which works as follows . . . To parry you make opposed attack rolls if you beat the attackers one e.g. they roll a 3 and add 10 to get 13 while you roll a 15 and add 3 to get a 18 then you successfully parry they're attack and it does no damage. Parry actions replace attack ones so if you normally can make 2 attacks a round you can use them instead for parry actions on a 1 for 1 basis. This can be either re-active if your lower on the intive order (enemy attacks you twice and you parry once) or you can choose to not make an attack and save it for parrying in preparation for an enemy attack if they're lower on the initive order, if no one makes a melee attack then that attack/parry goes since it acomplished nothing that round. You must declare your parrying the attack before finding out if it hits or misses and you must have an unused attack to sacrifice for it. @TheRealOrion Yes and no actually I've got a scientist in my current group (level 7) who's frequently making knowledge 30 checks on arcane facts, life sciences and physical sciences. They're having fun so I'm not going to change it I just balk personally at the idea that someone would know that much (superhero movies and what not aside).
#13 TheRealOrion Mar 07, 2009 20:28:07	I'm sorry, but "arcane" you mean "obscure" rather than "related to magic," yes? If so, then why does it bug you that he's making these rolls? Is it hindering the game, or does it just not make "real-world sense"? I share your frustration, if it's the latter. It drives me bonkers that you can spend on measly skill point to learn a whole frakkin' language, but in terms of how the game works, it's a fine rule (more communication is usually very helpful), so I bite my tongue and let it go. If that kind of stuff is bugging you, I humbly and cordially suggest that you do the same. Forget real-world logic and embrace the game as a game.
#14 senko Mar 08, 2009 6:41:16	No I mean arcane he's put his points into knowledge (arcane lore) in addition to more traditional sciences. With regards to letting it go I have been doing so as indicated in my first post I just wanted to know if I was the only one bothered by this since the people I play with tend not to be. As for languages personally I like my house rule of a 1 rank gets you a basic grasp of it (hello I am kauala-lei, Where is the toilet house?) so you can handle basic conversations or written signs (yes I split the two speaking a language doesn't mean you can read/write it and vice-versa) a second rank gets you to conversational level and a third gets you to speaking it like a native. So in order to speak and read/write at the level of a native you need to spend 6-12 skill points depending on whether its cross class or not but 1-2 will allow you to introduce yourself, ask for directions, order food with the occasional mix-up etc. Bonus languages gained from high int I allow as automatically starting at a native level of read/write and speaking.
#15 TheRealOrion Mar 08, 2009 12:09:44	Okay, I understand. I still don't quite get how this is a big problem, though. I don't mean to keep second-guessing you, here. I just want to understand a little more clearly.
#16 senko Mar 08, 2009 23:49:08	It isn't a big problem I just wanted to know if I was the only person who didn't like the skill consolidation.
#17 Cyber-Dave Mar 09, 2009 1:28:07	I personally like skill consolidation. But honestly, there is really nothing wrong with either preference. Different strokes for different folks.
#18 Ragitsu Mar 09, 2009 1:34:06	It works nicely in Spycraft 2.0 and Mutants and Masterminds, but not so well for, say, GURPS (which is a simulation type RPG, so that's a given).
#19 senko Mar 09, 2009 1:34:15	Never mind just never mind.
#20 DwarfFighter Mar 09, 2009 10:13:20	I would actually prefer fewer skills for physical actions. I don't mind the skill consolidation for Knowledge skills that much since that makes it all the more likely that the party will contain a character with the appropriate know-how, but I agree on the lack of granularity. -DF
#21 TheRealOrion Mar 09, 2009 12:29:12	I personally like skill consolidation. But honestly, there is really nothing wrong with either preference. Different strokes for different folks. Absolutely! That's why the better question might be, what do we and don't we like about consolidation? What kinds of games does it fit in with better/worse? I run superhero games, very high-concept, relatively short on realism. So having an all-around super-genius who knows about everything is just fine with me. In a gritty war-story kind of game, that's probably not appropriate. The other thing to consider is that once you consolidate, you also effectively make skill points worth more individually, so by making more skills, you would reduce their value. Is having what amounts to fewer skill points more appropriate to your game? Less? All interesting questions. And now that the game is discontinued and everyone's building their own version of it, you really can do whatever you want. Create houserules for different genres of game play.
#22 Ragitsu Mar 09, 2009 12:42:56	"Awareness" in Mutants and Masterminds covers Concentration, Notice, Search, and Sense Motive. "Athletics" in Spycraft 2.0 covers Bind, Climb, Escape, Forced March, Maneuver, Power Lifting, Smash, Speed Push and Sports. It also is used for Bull Rushes, Grapples and chases. Now, for something like d20 Modern, skill consolidation really really really helps Strong and Tough Heroes out. If skill consolidation existed for them, then you wouldn't need to bump the skill point total up.
#23 TheRealOrion Mar 09, 2009 14:33:27	Depends on what you consolidate, eh? In Phoenix I combined Spellcraft with Knowledge (arcana), which is a real boost to spellcasters, but does nothing for anyone else. I also combined Spot and Listen, but not Hide and Move Silently, which effectively makes it easier to notice when someone's being sneaky (still not sure how I feel abou that one). If anything, when you consolidate, you'd have to reduce the number of skill points to maintain balance. Or are you also saying that Strong/Tough ought to have more skill points, as a separate issue?
#24 Ragitsu Mar 09, 2009 14:39:32	Depends on what you consolidate, eh? In Phoenix I combined Spellcraft with Knowledge (arcana), which is a real boost to spellcasters, but does nothing for anyone else. I also combined Spot and Listen, but not Hide and Move Silently, which effectively makes it easier to notice when someone's being sneaky (still not sure how I feel abou that one). Myself? I'm very happy Mutants and Masterminds, Spycraft 2.0, Star Wars SAGA edition and D&D 4th Edition finally combined Hide and Move Silently into Stealth. While it's true that some people are better at hiding than moving silently (myself, I'm better at the latter than the former), these games are on the enabling side and not so much "realistic" side. If anything, when you consolidate, you'd have to reduce the number of skill points to maintain balance. Or are you also saying that Strong/Tough ought to have more skill points, as a separate issue? If it gives the bruisers versatility while allowing the more skill focused classes to retain their specialty, then i'm all for it.